OEP011 Print on Design T-Shirts with Merch by Amazon with Rob Cubbon

Speaker A: This is the Optimistic Entrepreneur podcast, episode number 11. Welcome to the Optimistic Entrepreneur. If you are an entrepreneur, you must be an optimist. And this show is for you. Stories, strategies and sunshine to brighten your day. All designed to help make you a more successful optimistic entrepreneur. And now your host, John Colley. Hello and welcome to the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm John Colley, I'm your host and it's wonderful to have you again with me today. In today's interview, we're talking to Rob Cubban, who's an online entrepreneur. And Rob has been working in the merch world, which is the Amazon T shirt design and selling business, which, uh, is one of his many streams of income. Now merch has been around for a year, 18 months and uh, there have been stories of great success, but equally it's like anything with these things, you have to know how to do it. And Rob has been doing it based successfully and he's going to share some of his tips, tricks and secrets with you to help you should you choose to start up your own merch business. He's also got a course out which we all talk about at the end, and he's got a cracking offer, uh, for uh, podcast listeners which I'm sure you're going to find really helpful. So without any further hesitation, it's my great pleasure to welcome Rob Cuban to the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast.

Speaker B: Foreign.

Speaker A: Pleasure to welcome back Rob Cuban to the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast. I've interviewed Rob a few times in the past because he keeps on coming up with such excellent stuff. I've got to get him onto the podcast and today, um, this uh, entrepreneur and marketing and design, uh, maestro is talking to us about Amazon and merch, which as we're about to discover is all about designing T shirts. Rob, a very warm welcome to the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, John. It's so nice and a pleasure to talk to you as always.

Speaker A: Could we start for those who haven't had the pleasure of hearing, um, from you in the past, perhaps with a little introduction to sort of who you are, what you do and just so people can get a flavour and get to know you a bit better.

Speaker B: Okay, well, I'm, um, English. I'm from, uh, the southeast of England and I used to do very boring menial design work in London as a freelancer. And um, 10 years ago, over 10 years ago now, I started a website and then, uh, started becoming an entrepreneur, uh, and um, doing design work for clients on my own and that has morphed into selling digital products and other products online and I now live in um, Thailand, uh, most of the time as I'm location independent, have been for a very long time and um, although at the moment I'm in back in London visiting family.

Speaker A: Brilliant. And um, the latest course you produced is all about Amazon Merch. And perhaps again for those who are unfamiliar with this new departure in the Amazon empire, um, what is Merch all about?

Speaker B: Merch stands for merchandise, uh, which at the moment, as you rightly say is just T shirts. Although we're hoping it will be rolled out to be, including baseball caps and hoodies and all sorts of other things. And basically because it's merch M, you can design whatever you want, put that on the product, the T shirt, then Amazon does everything else for you. So basically you upload a design which is basically a PNG file, Amazon puts it on a T shirt, sells it, uh, takes the money from the customer and gives you a royalty.

Speaker A: Well, that sounds like a license to print money, but I'm sure as we're about to find out, it's not quite as easy as that.

Speaker B: Well, you know, maybe it is. Stay tuned.

Speaker A: Okay, well let's get, I mean first of all, I mean I, I know you can't just start doing this. You have to apply to Amazon. So what's, what's the starting process? Um, and why is it not, um, automatic?

Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately you do have to get approved. This is the real sticking point because some people get approved straight away and other people will take, it takes months and months and months and months and they get very disheartened. Um, and we're going to mention my later in the program. I know, but I do say what I did, uh, put in there, uh, which may have helped, we don't know may have helped me get um, accepted straight away. And I happened to mention my design expertise, which you could quite easily make up. I said that I already did T shirt, uh, design, which you could make up as well because there are many, many printed and on demand T shirt design sites in America that you could, you can just join tomorrow like Zazzle and Redbubble. Um, so I said, I did that. I said that I sell Kindles and everything else on Amazon. Um, so I made, and I included my website as well. So I spent a bit of time on the application process. And if any of your listeners want to apply now, just go to merch.Amazon.com and you will, if you haven't already been accepted, you'll be uh, you'll be put towards the um, acceptance form or the application form and you'll see what to put in there. But I would take a lot of time over that process. It'll only take you five minutes. Um, but the more evidence you give avison that you're serious about this escapade, I think that would make sense and hopefully they'll accept you sooner rather than later.

Speaker A: Okay, that's really helpful. And maybe that's where I went wrong because I applied months and months ago and I still haven't heard anything from them. So, um, you know, it's, it's going to be exciting. So, um, you've got accepted by Amazon, which is very exciting. Um, so how did you start?

Speaker B: Right, well, when you start, when you start, it's. Again, it's not, it's not straightforward because you are then on what's called tier 10, ah, where you're only allowed to sell 10 T shirts at any one time. Uh, and this sounds ridiculous, but it is there for a good reason and I'll try and explain that now. Um, so it's very frustrating because you don't know what you're doing, um, and you can't get the volume up there in order to find out what you're doing. Um, so I think you can upload. I can't remember quite, um, there's figures offhand, but you can either upload one or two a day as well. And uh, so you do that dutifully and then you've got your 10t shirts up live and then you start deleting some of the ones that you've got up there and putting, um, in their stead, other designs and hoping they sell. And it's a slow old process. I'm not, um, saying, uh, you'll start, uh, making money straight away because, uh, with ten T shirts it's quite difficult to get sales. But sooner or later I got my first sale and then jumping up and down, ah, getting very excited, I thought, right, well that's. So why, why has that sold? Can I, can I carry on in that niche? Can I do a similar T shirt to that design in another niche? And then you're, then you're up and running. So, um, it's very slow in the beginning. Now, in order to go to a higher tier where you're allowed to sell more T shirts, you have to sell as many T shirts in that tier. So in tier 10, you need to have sold 10 in order to tear up, uh, to 25. And then you need to have sold 25, you tear up to 100. And now I'm on 500 and it keeps on going right up to 4,000, 8,000, whatever. Uh, by which point you'll have an army of freelancers hopefully helping you.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like at that point it becomes a completely full time job. But uh, very interesting. Um, let's touch upon something you flip flagged up to me in advance, which is this issue of um, the copyright and design, uh, which, which I understand is hidden away in best practices and content policy which you do address in your course. But uh, just let's, let's get this one out the way because I think it's quite important.

Speaker B: Yeah, this is very important because Amazon is uh, a big company in America and therefore is the target of copyright, um, uh, lawsuits and um, stuff like that. And they just don't want any trouble whatsoever. And in order to stop these lawsuits they have a very extremely strict content policy. Um, and they run, it's run by robots. So when you upload a T shirt, when you upload a design, you obviously have to give it a title, a uh, product description and 2 bullet points and all these words, of course you want to put SEO keywords in there so the design gets found by the buyers on Amazon. Um, but you've got to be incredibly careful that you do not mention any words that could be copyright protected. And I'll give you a few examples John. And this also might surprise you. So if you say this, this T shirt. No, this, um, the world's best father. The world. World's best dad Swag. Um, Trekkie. Uh, I got a list of them in the course. I um, can't come up with them just at the moment but they are uh, some really everyday words that have been copyright protected. It might be they were in a film or, or on music. Don't mention any celebrity, don't mention film, movie, uh, music that is famous at all or belongs to somebody else's copyright. It's not a case of obviously you shouldn't steal anyone's design, you shouldn't steal anything from anybody. But it's even worse than that. You've got to be so careful that you don't use words that you think you've made up but somebody else is copyrighted. And there are various websites where you can check um, if something's been copyrighted or not. Um, but there's a lot you've got to be careful of. Um, and I mention it all in the course, but just a sort of um, overview is just be extremely careful on what you're writing, not only on The T shirt, but on the description that you send up with the design.

Speaker A: Very interesting. I mean, I found this on Zazzle, actually, that Zazzle are incredibly touchy about not only the images you put up, but, um, but, you know, also, you know, names and the rest of it. And I had a photograph of a toy car which was a, um, an old Studebaker. And of course, you know, Studebaker's, um, a brand name. Yeah. And, um, they got frightfully excited about that and kept on rejecting it. And I had to get on to them to say, look, what's wrong with this? And they said, well, actually, you know, you don't know the word Studebaker. Ah.

Speaker B: Um. Okay.

Speaker A: Got that. Fine. Okay. So, yeah. Um, so, okay, that's really helpful to know, because that could save people a lot of time and avoid a lot of full starts, which would be really helpful.

Speaker B: And, well, not only that, you'll. You could get your account banned. You see?

Speaker A: Oh, Even bursting that. Yeah. All right, let's go on to, um. Okay, so we've got our account up and running. I want to make my first T shirt. Um, you know, now, there has to be some sort of strategy to this, I imagine. You can't just go out there, take a picture of a tree and think, okay, I'll stick that on. Somebody want to buy that. Um, so where do we start trying to design a T shirt?

Speaker B: Right. Well, the best place to start is actually on Amazon.com I do talk about a lot of tools you can use. Um, but Amazon.com is a good place to start because you can just start typing in, um, various words plus the word shirt. See what comes up in the autocomplete of the search bar in Amazon. Uh, so you just try, uh, searching golf shirt, and then you'll find that, um, uh, disc golf is a thing. I mean, it's. For example. I mean. Okay, I should be getting on to what you make shirts about. I mean, some people like to make shirts about current trends, things that are trending at the moment. Um, a classic example of that was a few weeks ago, the eclipse going across America. I have to say, this is only in America. At the moment. We're only selling in Amazon.com. um, and so you could do that. I have tended towards evergreen, uh, subjects that people are passionate about. And hobbies is a great example. So pick a hobby golf. Uh, put in golf T shirt, see what comes up on Amazon, and do a search, see what comes up, uh, when you search it. And you can tell from the BSR of All the products, whether they're selling well or not. And the bsr, as you'll know, John, is the best seller Rank, um, which every product in Amazon has a bsr. Uh, the BSR of one is something that sells, um, the best, the product that sells the best. And it goes down to about a million. Even a T shirt that, uh, has a BSR of a million could be selling one a month. Um, which is as far as we're concerned. Okay. Because it takes five minutes to upload the design. And if you sell one a month, you could make $7.

Speaker A: Do you, um, talk about Jungle Scout in your course?

Speaker B: Not Jungle Scout, because there are other, um, uh, there's a free plugin that works even better and there's a paid plugin that's sort of more tailored to, um, uh, uh, merch. I'll mention the free plugin because it's DS Amazon Quickview. And if you load that, um, you automatically see the BSRS on the results page, which is very handy. So you just do a search and then you see the BSRs in all the results on the first page. So you don't have to click through to see if they're selling well or not. And you develop sort of sixth sense to find the niches that sell well. It's all about niches, John. Um, you know, it's all about getting, uh, things that American. I think a lot about women, uh, American women, because I'm convinced that they buy, you know, a greater percentage of T shirts than men do. It certainly seems that way. So you kind of, um, go for the niche of niches. So women golf players, you know, uh, can they wear a T shirt while they're out playing golf that their friends are going to admire? You know, this is the sort of thing I think about on a daily basis, which is really quite sad.

Speaker A: It's a psychology of T shirt purchasing.

Speaker B: Yes. So really is heavily cultural and psychological, you know, because it's not like selling other things which are sort of like iPhone case covers which everybody wants. These are very specific about niches within America.

Speaker A: Got you. And I mean, you've been doing this for a little while. Can you talk about one or two, perhaps not current shirts or shirts which, um, have done well for you and why you think they've done well?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, well, so what I was just saying, I think, um, if you pick a hobby that, or even occupation that women aren't necessarily, ah, associated with and make it female friendly, uh, then that's something that's doing very well for Me, you know, so, for example, a female golf player, for example. Um, another thing, niches that I'm looking for having a lot of success in at the moment. Um, as I just said, Americans are very patriotic. Um, but I'm actually targeting immigrant groups in America as well. So I went on to Wikipedia to try and find out what are the largest immigrant groups. Um, so, for example, I got a Vietnamese friend of mine and I said, can you give me an expression in Vietnamese that, um, you would like to see on a T shirt? And she said, yeah, uh, this is the Vietnamese for Americans.

Speaker A: Get out. Historic day. I think. I think they've got over that, uh, that little conflict.

Speaker B: They certainly are very forgiving people. And yes, she could have said anything. I mean, she could have said some rude word, and I believe she didn't because the T shirt is selling well.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: But that, I mean, Vietnam, who would guess that, you know, I mean, the average American person would look at that and think, well, that's gobbledygook. However, it's extremely. The American, the Vietnamese Americans see it and they love it. You know, they'll buy it. So, um, the opportunity. So once you get into the way of thinking about niches, um, it doesn't, as I say, it doesn't take five minutes to upload a, to design and upload a T shirt. So it really is great fun.

Speaker A: Interesting. Um, and okay, so you're going to get some ideas. How do you actually go about designing it? Because I know you're a wizard design and I know you're always using lots of online tools for designing. Yeah, but for the odd, you know, for the, the. So the average bloke in the street like me, who doesn't have your design skills. In fact, I, I'm well known for not being able to design my way out of a paper bag. Uh, you know, where do I start? I mean.

Speaker B: Well, I appreciate it is difficult and I do give a lot of free tools in the course, uh, like Canva, etc. I know Canva has. You do end up paying for it, but, um, you can also, at the end of the day, if you can get a copy of Gimp working, that would be very useful as well. Uh, a lot of people do have Photoshop. I mean, I know it's extremely expensive, but there are ways of getting it cheaply and there are ways of getting it for free. And, um, I have used Photoshop in the course because I do think it's worth people, uh, persevering and working out how to use it. Having said that, John, you know, as I said in the course, the T shirts that do well, like, I mean, like the Vietnamese, uh, for. It's okay, we hope, um, it's not very difficult to design. It's in yellow, uh, and the font has got to be normal because there's only a few fonts that work in Vietnamese. Um, and I've also put a distressed effect on it, which, uh, is very easy to do. I explain how to do that in the course. In fact, I give a PSD for it. Um, and that's it. I mean, it's textbook. Um, other ones seem to be text and a very, very simple silhouetted image. So the design, um, is not difficult. And you just do get better as you get onto it. I know I do have a design background, um, but even I believe I've become better as a T shirt designer, um, whilst doing this. So I think other people would get better as well. So, for example, when I started, I did everything in black, and now I'm doing things in yellow and orange and pink and putting them on a dark T shirt, and they sell much better anyway. Um, you know, people don't want to wear white T shirts with black text. They want to wear dark T shirts with interesting designs on them, uh, and sometimes bright yellows, bright oranges, whites, uh, but all sorts of colors.

Speaker A: And can you generalize about what works best in terms of images or text or combinations?

Speaker B: Yeah, generalize. I would say it's a combination of text, uh, and image. And very simple text. Very simple image. And distressed as well. Works very well.

Speaker A: How do you distress something distressed?

Speaker B: Will you put it through a filter? Um, uh, I just Google distressed background and use that as a mask in Photoshop. So it basically just punches little holes through, um, what you're distressing. So it just looks a bit grungy. Um, you don't have to do that. But, um, they seem to do well as well.

Speaker A: And what sort of resolutions do you have to upload to?

Speaker B: Um, actually, it's a very good question. Um, the size is 4500 pixels wide by 5400 pixels high and 300 dpi.

Speaker A: Gosh, that's very high, isn't it?

Speaker B: It's extremely big. You don't have to make it that big. You could get away with doing it at 72dpi. Um, but they're just making absolutely sure. But the thing is, if they are sort of one color, two colors on a transparent background, it doesn't actually make a very big, uh, file size at all. Uh, even with those dimensions and the high resolution. Uh, but if you used all of that as a photo, it would be too unwieldy and quite big. There's actually, um, uh, an upper limit, 25 meg for the size of the actual thing. But it won't ever be that size because, um, you'll only be using text and simple graphics and they won't. And it, they end up being 2 meg or something like that.

Speaker A: Okay, that's very interesting. Okay, so you've designed your shirt and so you literally then upload the PNG or whatever it is to, To Amazon, Is that it?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, then, you know, I've mentioned it already. The text that you put in with it, which is the title, uh, the brand name, there's two bullet points and a product description. And you basically try and put keywords in there, um, which will hopefully help you sell the T shirts. And that's when you've got to be very careful with the copyright. Yeah.

Speaker A: And where do you go looking for your, um, keywords?

Speaker B: Uh, I don't. I just try and make it obvious, really. Yeah, I mean, I, I've used, um, uh, I've used, uh, merchant words as well.

Speaker A: Which is a paid, um, app, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, but that's more. Again, that's more for getting ideas for, for T shirts. But the actual, Once you've got the idea, the actual keyword. Well, the idea and the keyword is similar. But for example, I would say in the name of my T shirt, I would say, uh, woman's disc golf T shirt, um, or Funny Woman, uh, or gift idea for women's Gift. Gift, gift, uh, idea for women's golf T shirt, for example. So people, you know, they, they, they search for gift ideas on Amazon. So they're literally. They put gift idea for one. And that wouldn't be what the text says on the T shirt. You see, the text would say something, uh, else. But you don't want to copy the text on the T shirt because it's the title of it. Is it, it is more, um, it's more important to get the SEO juice out of the title rather than just slavishly copy, um, what's written on the T shirts. You can put that in the product description or in the bullets.

Speaker A: That's a really good tip, actually. Yeah, people would be very tempted to do that. And then what is just sit backfire and forget, is it?

Speaker B: Yeah, because then you want to see if it sells or not. You see, um, and you put it in, put it In a low price. I put it in at 14.99, something like that. See, if it sells and if it starts selling, put it up to 1699. Um, uh, but I mean, these figures are off the top of my head. I'll change my, what I'm doing as the days go by. And as I say, if it starts selling, can, you know, ask yourself, why is that selling? Um, can I improve on it? Can I go horizontal or vertical on the design? Meaning can I do anything more in that niche or can I copy that design for other niches? Um, and away you go, you know, so, you know, if Vietnamese T shirts suddenly start selling well, I'll be back onto my friend, asking her for more Vietnamese faces.

Speaker A: Or going into Google Translate, perhaps.

Speaker B: Yes, but I'd be careful with Google Translate because, you know, you might say something outrageous and, and get into trouble.

Speaker A: Yeah, I understand that now. Um, it's, it's. I mean, looking at the, the, um, the, the list of topics in your course, you mentioned Redbubble, I've already mentioned Zazzle. What is to stop you, um, publishing these, uh, designs and other places? Is there any exclusivity?

Speaker B: Absolutely not. And, and I, I would encourage people, and I do encourage people to do that, and certainly before they've been accepted on Merch, then they can certainly experiment on these. Uh, I've mentioned another seven in the course. There are about 30 or 40 of them. I mean, you're not going to get huge sales there. Ah. Uh, but some people do and it's worth experimenting. Another thing you can do is just copy the designs that do incredibly well on Amazon, um, and put them on all the other platforms as well, because they'll probably do well on those platforms. Um, uh, um, yeah, the course, um, I concentrate on Merch by Amazon because it's got the volume. However, um, there is a lot to be done on print demand platforms in the US anyway.

Speaker A: Yeah, very interesting, very interesting. And, um, to summarize how you've been getting on with it, I mean, you've been doing it for how long?

Speaker B: I've been doing it since March.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: But it really didn't take up any of my time, as you might imagine, because I can't. I could only upload one a day or two a day. So I took it, you know, it was very much on the back burner. Uh, and, um, it's very funny the way it worked. Uh, I think I sold one in April, one in May, and it just went parabolic, you know. Um, and then, um, I'm making about $500 a month. Now, I don't know how much I'm selling. Maybe, um, 200amonth. Maybe on 200amonth now, uh, I certainly sell a few T. And it goes wildly. I mean, my record is I sold 10 T shirts in one day and then it can go down and sell one. One T shirt a day. So I'm really looking forward to this quarter with Halloween and Christmas and, um, Halloween, because the Halloween designs, Christmas more because of everybody buy goes crazy on Amazon at Christmas. Um, so, um, I'm really hoping to do a thousand a month by the end of the year. Not sure if that's going to happen, but that's my target.

Speaker A: Interesting. Um, and what's. So I should have asked what's the revenue split? Because it does vary with Amazon with different products.

Speaker B: Yeah, it really varies. If you put the, um, price at 11.99, you get nothing. Or 30 cents. Um, if you put it at $14.99, you get about $3.00. You put it at $17.99, you get about $5.00. If you put it at $19.99, it's about $7.00. And that's that, you know, basically that's the way it works. You set the price, you can change the price anytime. It can be as high as you want and it can be, um, you can actually put it down. So you actually pay Amazon to sell your shirt. But I don't ever do that. That's below $11.99. Um, uh, so, uh, I'd leave it up to you. I put things that really low at first so I could get teared up. Now I'm on the 500th tier. I'm starting to put my prices up and they're all around about 1499 to 1999.

Speaker A: Interesting. And is there somewhere, I mean, I know there's an Amazon best seller, um, page where you can find all these. Is there a bestseller page for merch?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. Well, the best way to find that actually is to go to, um, Merchant. And then, uh, that's as it sounds, all one word merch research. Uh, and then there's a free tool there where you can just, you can just go to that page and click Search and it shows you the most important T shirts, or you can enter M, the most popular T shirts, or you can enter a keyword and then you can see the, um, most popular T shirts with that keyword.

Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, very good. Very exciting. And, um, I think the trick is to get onto the platform and then gradually Build it up, uh, and see how you go. But you've got to get accepted by Amazon. So I think anybody who's looking to do this really needs to get your tips on how to get accepted quickly rather than hanging around like I'm doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean all I can say is what I did. As I said at the beginning of this, uh, conversation, Jon, we really don't know why Amazon is, is uh, what decision making that they're going for at the moment. But yeah, I mean obviously, um, try and make sure you give the best possible case, uh, for you to take the job seriously when you're applying for Merch. And in the meantime there's all those other, um, platforms that you can play uh, around with.

Speaker A: Yeah, very interesting. Now what is your course and where can people find it?

Speaker B: Okay, so if you go to um, robcubbon.com courses you'll see all my courses. The course is called um, Merch by Amazon, uh, An Introduction to Selling Print on Demand T shirts. Um, uh, and you can find it@robcoven.com courses. Um, but we've got a, uh, special discount for your viewers, John. Uh, the course is at 59 and I'm gonna give the course for $19 to any of your um, uh, subscribers, any of your listeners that are interested.

Speaker A: That's really brilliant of you. Very kind. So that brings it down to what, 19? 19. Fantastic. And what is the coupon code?

Speaker B: Uh, well, we're gonna have to give them a pretty link.

Speaker A: Oh yes, I'll set one up. Absolutely. Because it gets quite complicated with teachable.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And I think you have to disclose you've also given me an affiliate link which means that I will share the bounty.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, which is very kind. So you know, the, you, the wonderful listener will not pay more, but I will definitely get a benefit. So full disclosure on that. But I'm very grateful for that little incentive for me to spread it all around the Internet and the universe, people to find out more about it. So this is, this is a mutual appreciation society in that respect.

Speaker B: Well, I definitely think you deserve the 50%, John.

Speaker A: Really kind. But I think it's all down to my wonderful audience and hopefully they'll find this helpful because I have taken a lot of your courses in the past, um, and I know they're really good. And so, um, I think this is a real, a really very timely um, course that people can take a look at and very exciting. So, um, Your website is robcubbon.com um, and we've got, ah, the courses linked there and I'll make sure there's links to that in the show notes. Um, Rob, as ever, very interesting to talk to you. You're always on the cutting edge and way ahead of the rest of us. Um, and it's really good of you to come on, share your knowledge and your experience and be so open with the whole process. Um, and I hope that everybody's going to find this really super helpful. So thank you for being a wonderful guest on the Optimistic Entrepreneur podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you very much for having me, John. I've enjoyed it yet again.

Speaker A: Well, my thanks to Rob for that very interesting and informative interview. I'm very grateful to him for being so open and so helpful. It's always very helpful. You can find all the show notes, uh, on the blog, which is jbdcolly.comoep011. You'll also be able to find the link to the course. Now, Rob has discounted his course from $59 down to $19 and you'll be able to find that if you follow the link. Jbdcolly.com merchmerich that is, as I mentioned, an affiliate link. And I will share in the benefit if you decide to, to go ahead. But I think you'll find that that is a really worthwhile investment, uh, because it's going to save you a lot of time and hopefully accelerate your sales very quickly. So I'm sure you're going to find it super helpful. If you are, uh, enjoying the podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you could pop over to itunes or anywhere else that you listen, uh, to the podcast and leave us a rating and review. They're always much appreciated. And I will be doing some shout outs in due course of people leaving their reviews. So if you leave a five star review and you may well find yourself getting your name mentioned on the podcast, which you might find very exciting. Don't forget you can jump over to my Facebook group, uh, the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast Facebook group. I think it's a mastermind there and you can also, uh, find me on LinkedIn and there's a mastermind group there as well. And I'll put links to those in the show notes as well. So it only leads me to say thank you for your time today, thank you for being with me. I really appreciate the time we spend together because time is your most valuable commodity and I really appreciate it and I look forward to seeing you again very soon in another episode of the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast. Thank you for listening to the Optimistic Entrepreneur Podcast. Which you can find@jbdcolly.com, com OEP.