Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office

Welcome to a special episode of the look and Sound of Leadership, an ongoing series of executive coaching tips designed to help you be perceived in the workplace the way you want to be perceived. I'm Tom Henschel, your executive coach, and today we're talking about Nice girls don't get the corner office. I am excited to do something new with you. After 17 years of this podcast, I'm doing my first interview. I have always stayed away from interviews. I watch people like Dave Stahoviak on the Coaching for Leaders podcast. I watch what it takes to create a really great, meaningful interview week after week. I think, oh my goodness, that is a lot of work and I don't want to do it. But this interview was easy. This interview was irresistible, actually. I'll tell you why I'm going to begin the story in the present day. These days, it sometimes happens that when people hear I'm an executive coach, the conversation goes like this. I say, I'm an executive coach. And they say, oh, who do you coach? And I say, corporate executives. And they say, huh? What do you coach them on? And then I drop into sorting and labeling and I say, I usually coach on one of three things. One, being more executive, which is the look and sound of leadership. Two, helping disruptive executives be a little less disruptive. And three, helping women rise, helping women get their voices heard. I never know what people are going to be interested in. I mean, sometimes they're not interested at all, but sometimes they want to know more about the look and sound of leadership. And sometimes they're curious about disruptive executives. But sometimes they are very curious how an old white guy is helping women rise. And that is when I talk about Lois Frankel. Dr. Lois Frankel. Here are some things you should know about Lois. Lois and I are almost exactly the same age. We were born within a couple of months of each other. We met over 30 years ago. At the time, I was ending a 20 year career as an actor in Hollywood and I was just beginning a career as a corporate presentation skills trainer. Lois was ending a 20 year career she had had in corporate HR and she was leaving because she wanted to make an impact working one on one with people. Lois vision about professional coaching. She didn't like that corporations saw coaching as the last thread they would offer their executives before cutting them off. Lois wanted coaching to be a perk so high performers would get even better. So while she was publishing a book every year or two, she recruited a group of coaches and she created a consulting company called Corporate Coaching International. And One of the coaches she recruited was me. So everyone around the table had a PhD except me. I had a Bachelor of Fine Arts. Everyone around the table had worked in the corporate setting except me. I was an ex actor. But Lois really valued that difference in me. And so she taught me how to coach. And because Lois is a feminist, I learned how to coach women's issues. Then 2004 comes one of Lois's many books becomes a global phenomenon. It is called Nice Girls don't get the Corner Office. This is one of those books. It didn't matter in those days whose office I walked into. It was on the bookshelf there. Man or woman, Lois's life changed overnight. And so did all of ours. Because suddenly Corporate Coaching International was catching a lot of reflected light off of Lois's star. The star that is Nice Girls has never gone out. In 2014, Lois updated the book for a 10 year anniversary edition. And then just a couple weeks ago, the third edition got published and it is significantly rewritten. I invited Lois onto a call to talk about it. We talked for about 50 minutes and I will tell you it was extremely pleasurable. In part because it's pleasurable to talk to your friends. And Lois and I are still friends, but in part because Lois and I have been talking about coaching women in the workplace forever. We have comfort in this conversation. Conversations like this are how she taught me to coach. I started our 50 minutes by asking how she saw women's issues these days. What has stayed the same, what has changed? And Lois had a lot to say. And then I asked her to do what she and I have been doing forever. I asked her to coach me on two clients and she did. A woman named Grace and a woman named Nicole. I wanted to keep this podcast episode to our usual length, so I'm not going to play the whole 50 minutes here. There's a link in the show notes to the full unedited conversation. It is rich with ideas, particularly if you're a woman and particularly if you want to be an ally to women. I'm glad to share that conversation with you. The link's in the show notes. I. I hope you'll give it a listen here. I'm just going to play you one part where Lois coached me about a client named Grace. I'm going to come back afterwards to share two ideas, but for now, here's me talking with Lois about Grace. So let me tell you about a woman named Grace. She's a nice girl. I have a feeling that it's old in her Life. She is now at a senior level in a financial organization, and she's clearly super smart. I love being with her during our coaching conversations. Who doesn't like being with a nice girl? Well, yes, partly because one of the things that I'm on her about is, for example, she'll apologize if she wants to ask me a question or she'll ask permission to ask me a question. It's like. You know what I mean? It's stuff like that. So one of the things that I wonder. And by the way, she has trouble in big meetings. She does. It sounds like she runs her team great. But when she's in, like, her boss's meeting and she's with her peers, that she has trouble speaking up. And I just wonder on that one issue, how you might coach her, what would you say to her? Well, Tommy, know you and I often approach these coaching situations a little bit differently, and I've learned a lot from you, and I think you've learned a little bit from me. I have, indeed. And so what went through my head when you described her was, first of all, were there any cultural issues at play here? So it's not as if she's anything other than a Caucasian woman. Correct. True. Correct. Because sometimes when there's cultural issues, they. They come into play. As we both know, having done so much work in. As. The second question that came to mind for me was when you said she does well with her team. It's in these meetings with her peers and her management that she seems to feel as if she needs to hold back. I would want to know what those people represent to her, because I can remember coaching a woman that was very similar to how you described. And she was great with her team. Her team loved her when she got to management meetings, and she happened to be the executive director of a nonprofit. Oh. Huh. And so for her, her board was her executive team. Right. Yeah. She became tongue tied. She couldn't talk at all with these people. Wow. And. And otherwise she was articulate. She represented her nonprofit beautifully. It was like, I thought there's. And you know that this is where you and I differ, because I want to know what's the old. That's getting in the way of today? So I would want to ask, Grace, where in your life or from whom did you get a message that it wasn't okay to speak up, especially to authority or even to people like, maybe like your siblings or your, you know, older siblings, things like that? Because they could be peers as well. Or. And are they most. Because you Said it's financial services. So it tells me it's a lot of men. Yes, I think it is a lot of men, right? Yes, absolutely. So that's the place I would start with her. Okay. And then I would move into more of my Tom behaviors, which is, as you often say. I don't know if you still say it anymore, but I've heard you say when we used to talk about clients together, I'm not as concerned about where it came from as I just want to change the behavior, and we both want to change the behavior. So I think from that point, you do have to give her some baby steps for what can she do to get her voice out there? And they have to be baby steps. And so for someone like Grace, I think I would start by coaching her to amplify other people. Now, I wouldn't normally say this, because normally I want women to amplify themselves, but I think for someone like Grace, if she has a hesitant speaking up and is afraid if she amplifies what other people say, particularly women. And amplification is just the process of affirming what you've heard. Good idea. Yeah, good idea. Here's why I agree with that. Here's why I would support that. Can you tell me more? You know, let's really explore this further on time. Mom's behalf. Right. That is a great way to get your voice out there and to build alliances, because that's partly what she wants, that when she does speak up and give her own opinion, she wants to make sure that she's got those alliances out there. So I think I would start with a baby step like that. That's great. So let me ask, in addition to that, do you have catchphrases or ways to start a sentence that sound assertive that someone like Grace can just adopt? Absolutely. You know, and you know, where you'll find most of those is not in this book, but you may recall in my audiobook, Nice Girls Don't Speak up and Stand Out. Yeah. When I started writing that book and I realized this book begs to be read, not. I mean, for me to read the book and have it be audio, not to have people. People read it. You know, it begs to be heard, rather. And so that's why I went back to the publisher and I said, could we make this an audiobook? I don't want this to be a paperback book. People have to hear these messages. So obviously, I would recommend that book for her, of course. Yeah. Because there's so many tips in there. But I think I would start her with simple ones like. And again, I wouldn't coach everyone to do this. So I. I don't want this everyone to take this as, oh, we all have to do this, because it's not the case. But in her case, it'd be something like, let me make sure I understood what everybody said, and then let me add how I see this. Okay. And I think in that way, she doesn't feel as if she's being out there just to have her voice heard. Because sometimes women get coached to, hey, look, it doesn't matter. Just say what you have to say. No, some women, like Grace, I'm picturing a timid woman, a smart, timid. I'm picturing actually a smart, timid, attractive woman. Okay. Who. Who has gotten by on all of that. And it needs to develop a new brand for herself. And so as part of that brand. Is that correct? Yes. And these things, like, one of the things she has said to me is, I love scripts. I love scripts. So those kind of phrases that I think she would do well with them, and they sound great to me. They sound right for me. They sound right to me. For her. For her, exactly. So to be able to say something in a meeting like, you know, before we go any further, excuse me, I would like to summarize what I heard and add something to it. Right. And so if I heard you correctly, Tom, this is what you're saying. Did I get that right? Okay. You know, then I would just like to add this piece from my perspective. And again, this is how she can start, because eventually you want her to get to the place that she's able to say, tom, I heard what you said, and I think we need to add this to it. I would have her use I a lot more often. Oh, that's interesting. It's probably difficult for her. I'm running my conversations with her, and I don't hear that and I haven't asked. So that's a good one. I will put that on my radar. Good. So that'd be another part of the script that I'd give to her that she more often needs to start her phrases with. I. You know, I believe I see what I've noticed. I think she needs to start using those I's more often to own it. Oh, I like those. Those are great. So let me ask one. I know you've talked about this, and I'm wondering whether your ideas about it have evolved. So let's imagine Grace sitting in a meeting. She says, something, has an idea. It doesn't get a lot of traction. Seven minutes later, some guy speaks up with the same idea, and everybody goes, great idea, Robert. Right. For Grace as a timid woman, what words would you give your script is going to be? Robert, thank you so much for expanding on my idea. What it made me realize is I left a few pieces out. So let me just add to what you said, and then I think we'd have my full idea on the table. Ooh. So listen, I think that would be great if she could do that, but knowing Grace as I do, I think she would be so paralyzed and fearful that she won't have a new idea. And my question is, could she claim the original idea? And if so, what would that sound like? Sure. Okay, let's do it this way. Then saying no. Robert, I so appreciate you expanding on my idea. It sounds like you agree with it. You buy into it. I think with your expertise and my expertise combined, we can move this forward. Oh, nice. So she also amplifies. She amplifies. She thanks him, and she puts it into an action mode, but she doesn't let him get away with stealing it. Great. Oh, I love that. So that one, which I feel can happen to any woman. Yes. Is a nice pivot point for me to go to client number two. Okay, so client number two is on the other end of the spectrum, to put it nicely. She has sharp elbows. A woman named Nicole, super smart, really high achiever. The company loves her, and they would really like her to stop pissing people off because she's a little abrasive. So one of the things that you talk about with women taking control is about being direct. So how would you coach Nicole around being able to be direct without kind of overcorrecting and people going, she's such a bitch. Sorry to jump in, but that's where I'm gonna leave it for now. If you want to hear Lois's ideas about coaching Nicole, the link is in the show notes. Meanwhile, there are two things that you heard that I really want to talk about before we finish. Here's the first one. Do you remember right at the very beginning of my conversation with Lois, I had just finished painting a picture of Grace, and she said, you and I often approach these coaching situations a little bit differently. Well, it's true. We do. And I want to let you know why. My background is in theater and television, where the whole point is to make people believe you are a certain someone. Right. Some character, some role that you're taking on, and it doesn't matter what kind of method you have as an actor. What matters is whether people believe the behavior that you show them. Are you being perceived in the workplace the way you want to be perceived? That's my background. So when I approach a coaching situation, I often approach it behaviorally. The look and sound of leadership is at least 50% about behavior. Sorting and labeling is just behavior. Answering questions powerfully is just behavior. So I'm all in on behavior. And Lois is too. I mean, you heard her, she has amazing scripts. Those are behaviors, right? But her approach to them is completely different. Lois's PhD is in counseling psychology. Lois was trained as a psychological counselor. So when Lois sees a pattern, her first instinct is to look in the person's past. I mean, she told me flat out the first question she wanted to ask Grace was, who do these people represent to you? Let's look in your past. Let's see if we can make that better. That's Lois's style. She trained for those conversations. And I will be honest, I admire those conversations. But that is not my training. And so my approach is different and my questions will be different as hers will be different. So we will take you down different coaching paths. Neither is better or worse, but they are different. Why is this important? I know many of you are interested in finding a coach, and I think it's important for you to know that different coaches are going to take you down different paths and they won't all be to your liking. Lois has said to me more than once over the years, I'd like to hand this client to you. I think they'll like you better. And she was right. And it made the coaching easier. In the coaching community, we call this chemistry. We believe in chemistry. We know that chemistry helps the coaching. If you've ever reached out to me about coaching, you know, I offer a free 45 minute conversation. Well, I am not special that I do that. You know, any coach that you reach out to is going to give you a free call. But these calls are important to us because they are our chemistry calls. We know chemistry helps the coaching. So for you approaching a chemistry call, we do them all the time. But what would you be looking for? How would you know a good chemistry call? My measurement is pretty simple. Do you think it's easy to talk to the person? If it is, that's chemistry. If it feels a little bumpy, feels a little out of sync, that isn't chemistry. And it doesn't have to be any more complicated than that. I do want to say one other thing about chemistry. Calls. I think chemistry calls can really clear your head. So imagine, just imagine. Imagine that you are going to get on a chemistry call tomorrow with me and you are going to talk to me and listen, I am basically a stranger, right? You are going to explain to me what you would like to have different in your career. How would you explain that? It gives you a different perspective, right? Chemistry calls are a great exercise. Ultimately, though, they're there to help you choose a coach. And listen, there are lots of great ones out here. We're all different. Trust your gut. Pick someone you like to talk to. That's idea number one. Here's idea number two, the book, it is called Nice Girls don't get the Corner Office. But think about that title for a second. Just imagine a woman in the senior leadership role at your company and think about the fact that this book is saying, she better not be a nice girl. What does that mean? That's idea number two. Right after this month's gratitude. I want to start my gratitude this month with gratitude to Lois. I expressed my gratitude to her in real time at the end of our conversation and she expressed hers to me. And here's what that sounded like. But listen, I do want to end with gratitude to you. You know, going back forever and ever when you plucked me out of whatever I was doing and made me coach. But also, you know, what you do for my family and our enduring friendship. I am so grateful. And I am grateful for our friendship, Tom. You know, just how lucky have I been all these decades later? And they are decades later. I know. I know. So thank you. Sweet makes me smile. Lois, I owe you so much. I love you. Thank you. Other gratitude. I am grateful for the chemistry calls I've been having with you all. Thank you for reaching out and thank you for thinking about your future with me. I am honored. Thank you to longtime friend of the show, Todd Thompson. Thank you for your steady stream of reviews. I am very grateful to all of you. Thank you for your reviews. Okay, so now what does it mean to be a nice girl? So first, the book itself is going to have a completely comprehensive answer. The subtitle of the book is Unconscious Mistakes Women make that Sabotage Their Career. The book is made up of one or two page tips that Lois has written to tackle mistakes women make in the workplace. She takes on 100 mistakes and she divides them into categories like career rookie mistakes, getting heard. And in some ways, it is not unlike the look and sound of leadership. These are short, concrete tips that you can apply right away. The link is in the show notes for the book. And by the way, the link is going to let you buy the book direct from Lois. In this day and age, you know, buying direct from an author changes how much the author gets. So it's a great way to show support. The link is in the show notes. But let me get back to the question, really, what does it mean to be a nice girl? A nice girl is socialized. Be agreeable, get along. Don't speak up. Don't make a spectacle of yourself. Be nice. Lois's contention is that women who are still living with that socialization will never rise as leaders, whether they're at a global corporation or a parent teacher association. In the unedited version of our conversation, Lois says these words. She says, you can't be the nice little girl you were taught to be in childhood and expect to achieve your adult goals. That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? But it doesn't mean you stop being nice. So you remember when I gave Lois the example of Grace having an idea stolen in a meeting? And do you remember what Lois coaching was? She said, Grace should amplify, Grace should thank him, and Grace should move to action. But Grace should not let him get away with it. I think it's all perfectly nice, right? It's actually, I think, a lot more nice than most men would ever be. But it is not bitchy what it is. And this is what excites me about the ideas in Nice Girls. It excites me because it shows women how to take control without being controlling. Grace claiming her idea is absolutely her taking control without being controlling. And she's still being nice about it. You can be direct. You can be to the point. You can be nice. It is the look and sound of leadership. I hope these ideas excite you as much as they excite me. If you want to dig in, start with the interview links in the show notes. Start with the book link is in the show notes. But also take a look in our archive. Three big categories for women perception, how you perceive yourself and leadership. And five episodes you might listen to are Coaching versus Therapy. Because this feels like it's in that category, right? Conflict, Conquering people, Pleasing a notorious problem with women, the Conflict Conversation and Leading with Political Savvy. Part one. I would really love your feedback about this episode. What did you think? I am so curious. Okay, that's it from me. Until next time, I'm Tom Henschel. Thanks so much for listening.