Season 4 Episode 6: Baking In Slow Growth

Michael Maher: Welcome everybody to the longer game. are a podcast that talks all about retail. That means brick and mortar. That means e-commerce.

That means marketplaces. Any place that you can buy stuff. That is our definition of retail. And as we look into the future of retail, what do we think is the future?

I believe it's being omni-channel, but that means different things for different people. It's not just being in different channels, but it's about increasing your awareness across multiple channels, showing up in those channels that consumer needs you to be there. Someone at Walmart might be different than Target, might be different than Amazon and why those people are shopping there could be very different. Convenience versus price, et cetera.

And so we bring out all kinds of guests just to talk about their experience in retail. And today we have the founder and CEO of NoGood, Victoria Burke with us. Welcome to the show, Victoria. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Victoria Berk: Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. So I'm Victoria, I'm the founder of NoGood. No Good is a modern baking and snacking company. We create treats that you grew up with and are remaking them with ingredients that you can actually feel good about.

Our mission really is to redefine the legacy baking aisle and create new everyday staples for modern households. And right now our first product is a break and bake cookie dough and we just launched the business a few months ago. Michael Maher: Congratulations on launching. That's always exciting.

That's ⁓ new stuff is exciting and also can just bring on a lot of challenges and heard people be asked like if you knew how difficult this thing was gonna do or how difficult it was gonna be would you do it again? And a lot of times people are like no I probably wouldn't like my dad was biochemical engineer and he went back to medical school when his kids were seven five and three. Victoria Berk: Thank you. Heh.

Michael Maher: Kind of a crazy move. And I think I asked him or someone asked him like, would you do it again? And he was like, I don't know if I would do it again, knowing how challenging it was. So I think there's a level of incredible and amazing naivety of starting something and the hope of that mission that allows you to have drive to get it done.

Like starting an agency 10 years ago, almost 10 years ago now, uh, man, that was crazy. And I didn't even know I was starting an agency. I was doing freelance work to any commerce and saw this huge need in Amazon. And so just went for it.

And that's how my agency cartology came about. But I was building an agency before I even knew it and learned a lot along the way, because I did not start in an agency life. So there's this incredible passion initially, like I'm to do this thing, but there's a lot of challenges too. Like what are some of the challenges that you've that maybe you were not expecting, even though you maybe have seen people in the CBG community talk about some of the challenges, like what were some of the things that maybe caught you a little off guard?

Victoria Berk: Yeah, so I think being a founder, need to be a little bit naive. You need to be a little bit crazy because it is really hard. And if you're not feeling connected to the mission behind what you're building, there are much easier paths to pursue. And it takes a lot to really stay the course each and every day.

that's something that I've stayed connected to as I've been building this business and ⁓ through the challenges, try and really focus on the end goal of what we're Michael Maher: Mmm. Victoria Berk: building towards, but to give a little bit more context and background, I really created no good to solve a problem that I was having every single night. I don't know about you, but I have a huge sweet tooth and I really, yep, mean a lot of us do, a lot of us do. And I ending the day with something that feels indulgent, but at the same time, I care a lot about how I feel physically and mentally and.

Michael Maher: Yep. Me too. Yeah. Victoria Berk: A few years ago, I really couldn't find anything in the grocery store that felt like a true dessert and supported how I wanted to feel.

COVID, this kind of started as a fun kitchen project. I used my background in nutrition to experiment with different ingredients and recipes. And about 100 iterations later, finally landed on a version that tasted amazing and was something that I did feel like I wanted to have every single night. And...

you know, since this was during COVID times, I was living with my family. We were all under one roof. I was making everyone do blind taste tests so that they could give me honest feedback on the different recipe iterations. And then when friends and family started asking me to make it for them, that was the moment when I thought maybe, you know, this could really be a business.

And I'd always had an entrepreneurial itch. For years, I had been writing business plans and pitching to people around me. But being able to really pursue ⁓ Michael Maher: Mmm. I love that.

Mm, okay. Victoria Berk: passion for wellness and nutrition through a business made so much sense to me that was really how ⁓ good was born initially. ⁓ Michael Maher: I love that you had an entrepreneur itch that you recognized and were then like, I need to do something about that. Cause I think a lot of people maybe feel something and they're not able to name it.

And maybe so they're not, if they can't name it, then they can't really act on it. And so just knowing that about yourself is really crucial. I think a lot of people may be in a corporate role and they just absolutely crush it and they're good with that. And being an entrepreneur is not for them.

But I think there are people that may be in a corporate role that really are meant to be entrepreneurs and they don't do it for whatever reason. Maybe they can't name it. Maybe they just feel like they need to get a quote unquote good job, a job that feels like there's more security. But I think once COVID hit in 2020, think that shattered the myth that any job was truly safe.

And I think a lot has changed since then. So just recognizing, I have this entrepreneur itch. I need to scratch that itch. And then taking action.

Victoria Berk: Right. Michael Maher: That's miles ahead of a lot of people. don't think most people are doing that. Victoria Berk: Yeah, well.

You know, it kind of happened over time. My background originally was in more corporate roles. I started my career in management consulting, then I was at a large tech company. And I always just felt like I wanted to be more involved and to be more directly associated with the end result of what whatever this company was building towards.

I started dabbling and working at other startups. And then this kind of just happened over time. It was a slow burn to get here. But yeah, I think Michael Maher: Gotcha.

Victoria Berk: you know you only live once I know that sounds so cliche coming from from a millennial but ⁓ you know yes yes so you know Michael Maher: But it's Whatever, we own it. We will own that, Victoria. It's true, you only live once. Victoria Berk: There's no good time to take a risk.

There's no good time to start a business. And if you have an idea and you want to pursue it, you kind of just have to jump into it and do it. And that was really the mindset that I took. I ⁓ need to do this now because ⁓ will never be a good time.

Michael Maher: That's a great point. There's so many people want to mitigate risk. be clear, I'm not one of those people. I kind of enjoy the risk.

⁓ ⁓ wife has a great counterbalance for me where she can help me to weigh out some of the risks and maybe not make a leap that's so in the moment, so built on passion. we were talking about this before we even started recording. I said this mantra of I do hard things. Victoria Berk: Right.

Michael Maher: I like that mantra. there have been times in my business last year, it was a very challenging year, just changing lot operationally, changing stuff. Some of the clients lost a big client, a client that we helped do a ton of great work for. Like that's gonna happen, it's gonna be part of a business and I've had ups and downs.

someone said something to me, because I said, I do hard things. Everyone was going, everyone in this, have this. ⁓ Entrepreneurial group that I meet with a group of guys. It's a faith-based group and we talk about our inner life our relational life and our work life or vocational life and was gonna do a bike ride at the beginning and my buddy who I told you about who's a trail runner was like I'm gonna go run and I was like I hate running I'm gonna go run I don't know why but I said I will do this and so I did it was like five miles But that's like was the most that I'd run And it was hard, but as I said, I do hard things.

And then I was talking about challenges in my business. This guy just said to me, like, you said, you know, I do hard things. I think that's a part, like, I think you want the challenge. Like, would you want to do this if it weren't?

Like if it were easy? And the more I thought about that, I was like, ⁓ yeah, don't think I would. I wouldn't appreciate what I'm doing if it weren't for the challenge. And if things are really not the destination, think the deceive us.

I was told by someone very wise last week, I believe that's true. If it really is about the journey, do we want it to be easy or do we want it to be a challenge? Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Right.

No, it's an interesting question and I think it's all about, you know, what are you looking to get from this experience? And I think being able to learn along the way and challenging yourself is how you grow as a person. you're seeking growth, then you're going to need to face challenges and you will get through it. Michael Maher: Yeah.

Let's talk about, mentioned your passion growing. It's something that was slowly evolving over time. And I think that's ⁓ and modeled in your business as well. Something that ⁓ approach that you're taking is different than a lot of the, I say this, I think it's a lot of the stuff that's publicized.

I don't think that's how most businesses are to be clear. And what I'm getting at is, Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm, agreed. Michael Maher: Come up with the concept, raise a bunch of money, go out and sell it. First of all, I don't think most businesses get exits.

Second of all, most people aren't raising a ton of funding. And a lot of the overnight successes that we see where people maybe do eventually get capital, that's come from years and years and years of adjusting your message and adjusting your product. You talked about in the beginning just having a hundred different recipes. I don't think people know or understand that level of tweaking.

like tweaking it and documenting it. And then the next step is how do you mass produce or replicate that in greater capacity? slowness, the developing over time is, it feels like a very intentional choice from you. Why way versus going and a big check and ⁓ trying to out and do it in a really big, quick way?

Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, great question. it's something that I find really interesting. And I happen to agree with you.

I think a lot of businesses grow over a long period of time, but especially within the CPG space. We hear about a lot of brands that get an influx of funding and then kind of just pop off everywhere. And obviously for a lot of those brands, they've been working in the background for a while, but I am of the belief that there is value ⁓ in a slow growth, especially initially. At the stage that we're at and the strategy that ⁓ we been pursuing is...

Michael Maher: Mm-hmm. Victoria Berk: essentially focusing on building out a local demand and really validating that there is demand and an audience for this product before investing further because now it's not as hard to make tweaks and we can really engage more closely with our audience when it's a tight-knit community and be able to build products that they want and are looking for ⁓ I ⁓ found that to be very valuable. So I'm based in New York right now. ⁓ completely focused on keeping this a local brand, know, at least in the next few months.

⁓ And we've launched, it's been in some iconic New York retailers, like big name retailers, Zabar's Butterfield Market, a few others. And that has been really helpful for us because we've been able to really interact with a niche community of people who can give us feedback and really grow a lot of love for this brand. Michael Maher: Mm. Victoria Berk: then we can ask them what are the flavors that you're wanting to see in the next iteration?

What other product categories are you wanting to see out of this brand? And then take that feedback and use it to grow further and expand more broadly. Michael Maher: I mean, you're I've heard the CPG community in New York is amazing. The very first episode of this podcast that's about to come out.

This will come out much later after this is Joe Rotundo, the CEO and co-founder of smear case, the cottage cheese ice cream brand. don't know if you've heard anything about him, but cool dude. And I've him talk about the New York CPG ⁓ community and introduced me to a ton of people. ⁓ since we've connected and I've gotten a chance to taste his ice cream, which was really, really cool.

I got to eat it for breakfast and I felt good about it. Cause it was cottage cheese and basically protein. I mean, there's some sugar in there, but it's ice cream, but I felt good about doing it. Cause I got, you know, 20 grams of protein in my, in my breakfast.

So there's I've heard that there's great community there. I've seen some really cool pop-up shops that are curating these experiences. And in some of those curations, I'm also seeing brands start to collab. in a way that's really, really cool.

Like I just saw Malk and the Coconut Coal release ⁓ ⁓ edition that used Malk Coconut Malk, I guess you should say, inside their yogurt. ⁓ And think, believe that's what you call it, is yogurt. ⁓ so some of collabs are really, really cool. ⁓ But I've also in general brands who work with the retailer to develop things, which is really, really cool.

A buddy of mine named Tyler who works for Kinders, he was talking about how they'll go in and talk with retailers and say like, hey, let's develop a product together. What do you see that's missing? That feels like a huge win because you're helping them serve a need that's going to generate revenue and keep a customer base in their store with that retailer in a time when people are not. Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm.

Michael Maher: Super store-loyal like where's the best price? Where is it most convenient? They're shopping at multiple places like that feels like a huge win actually truly partnering with someone Victoria Berk: Absolutely. And I will echo that sentiment that the New York CPG community has been absolutely amazing.

It was one of my goals in the fall to really engage more with the community. they, I would say the people I've met have been so supportive of my business and are really eager to champion around what I'm doing and give advice. And it's been so helpful. starting a business in New York, especially in the CPG space, it has been a very good experience.

But you bring up an interesting point that people aren't necessarily Michael Maher: That's awesome. Victoria Berk: so loyal to different retailers. People want to go, you know, where they're going to get a good price point. I think New York is a little bit unique because everyone's walking around carrying groceries.

you know, you're going to go wherever has what you're looking for and is closest to you so you're not breaking your back carrying everything home. ⁓ But, right. Michael Maher: Mm-hmm. Sure.

Yeah, that's a great point. The convenience factor is a real thing. Victoria Berk: It is, but the idea that... you can partner with a retailer and have them talk to you about a white space and really encourage you to build within that space is really interesting because they have the insights and you don't necessarily have that overarching insight as a brand.

You can understand what's going on within your category and look at some of the metrics within your different products, but they have the metrics within, you know, the whole grocery store. So that seems like Michael Maher: Hmm. Interesting. Victoria Berk: huge value add and I know even within the VC space there are some larger retailers that are getting involved with some VCs and giving them that insights that they can you know be more savvy in their investing and understand where there's opportunity and potentially you know sign on to Be maybe a minority and investor in that business because they have the data to back Michael Maher: Ooh, interesting.

Yeah. Victoria Berk: that people are looking for this and there really is an opportunity to thrive in that space. Michael Maher: That's exciting to think about. And that's so smart to think about those retailers giving.

What's what's one of the problems with investing? You don't know what's going to return. So imagine if you could go in with more. I recorded a different podcast more about Amazon earlier today and we were talking about data the fact that Amazon gives you a ton of data.

Victoria Berk: Yeah, it's cool. Right. Michael Maher: But I just said more data is not necessarily better, it doesn't guarantee you revenue, it's what level, data are you focusing on and what is the objective that you're trying to get to. But if you have more data that helps you get to your goal, great.

That's so smart to take the data that you, that a retailer has and then you can say, well, what should we be investing in? Not just like, what's a cool concept? And sometimes ⁓ I you do have to bet on the founder. The founder has to be someone that's passionate, that wants to do this to your point, have a level of good naivety because they really believe in this thing.

But imagine if you had more insights going into it. You could make a decision that would arguably get a better return. Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Right.

And I also think there's something to be said. There's the data, but then there are also consumer shifts and trends in the industry that you see people moving towards. And something that I feel strongly in is that the perspective around nutrition and how people are choosing the different products that they want to bring into their home has changed so much over the years. We were talking about this a little bit before, but, you know, it's interesting to think about that evolution of how there was the fat free era, there was the low carb Michael Maher: Hmm.

Victoria Berk: era with Atkins and I was saying to you I remember as a child In my lunch box, I would have 100 calorie packs and that was really an on the go snack. And it's so funny to look back on because my perspective has shifted so much. And I think that so many people's perspective has shifted, especially in the last few years on what do I define as healthy and what do I define as a product that's worth me spending my money on and bringing into my home to feed to my family.

And I think people are starting to shift Michael Maher: Yeah. Victoria Berk: their focus towards products that are trustworthy and products that are made with simple and quality ingredients that our bodies know how to process. it can be really hard for consumers to discern what products they should be going for because marketing can be really confusing. But I think people are really more educated on how to be savvy consumers and we've seen Michael Maher: ⁓ man.

Victoria Berk: So many brands really lean into doing this well and creating a trust with their audience and with their communities. But I still think that there's so much opportunity here. Michael Maher: I don't think it's any surprise that there's an obesity epidemic in the United States. And I think there's a lot of opinions on that.

I don't know how important everybody's opinion is on individuals that are dealing with that, but I will say this. It's easy to be judgmental. about someone who is obese. It's very easy.

It's easy to be judgmental about anyone. You just, I don't know your situation. I'm going to point a finger at you and I'm going to judge. I do it.

I'm sure you do it. Everybody does it. We're all humans. So it's easy to be judgmental, but I, I truly believe one, there is a sense of personal responsibility.

Everyone does have to take ownership of where they're at, regardless of how they've gotten there. That's the only way that you're going to be able to move forward. Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michael Maher: So where am I at? What do I need to do from this point to get myself to a place of being healthy? I believe that people generally do want to be healthy and want to make good decisions. And ⁓ I think you have to take personal responsibility.

And at the same time, I think that people have been fed things that they thought were the right thing and they were doing those things. But in all actuality, they weren't working for them. And it caused them ⁓ get into Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Michael Maher: A worse place when the whole low fat era was going on, all based on flawed science that fat was bad, what was being put in food instead?

A ton of sugar. Everything was super processed. Now you've got refined starch. You got refined, you got really refined sugar that's hitting your bloodstream faster.

That's causing your insulin to spike. That's storing everything in your body as fat. now it's causing you to be hungry again, a lot quicker. Okay, well what do you think's gonna happen when I eat these devil's food cakes, cookies, you know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm gonna be hungry again and I'm gonna eat more and I'm gonna think, ⁓ it's good because it's low fat.

So I genuinely, this maybe is just an optimistic way of looking at it, I believe that people want to be healthy but there's been, to your point, there's been so much marketing towards what is good and what is not when there is a lot of data. Victoria Berk: Great. Michael Maher: lot of data seriously the past from the Banting diet like 200 years ago until now there's a lot of data that can be read and I think the biggest I think there's some good takeaways from all that data that people could read.

don't know what your take is on that. And I could point some stuff out, but my point is there's a lot of data out there. If people ⁓ a little bit more beyond just the marketing claims and didn't just trust the company, not that I think the companies are necessarily out to get you, they want you to consume their products, but there's enough data I think that people could start to make better, more informed decisions. And it seems like that's kind of what people are doing anyway.

Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Right. I think it's a complex issue. There are so many different angles at which you could think about what drives decision making in people.

⁓ think, yes. And I think when it comes to shopping in a grocery store, a lot of the decisions that people make, the most part, for the masses, are based ⁓ Michael Maher: Mm-hmm. It is very complex. I want to recognize that.

It's a super complex issue. It's not cut and dry. Victoria Berk: preferences. So this is the product that I've always bought.

I know I like it. It works for my family. I'm going to continue to buy it. People don't want to be thinking so much when they're walking around the store.

They want to just pick things up and get in, get out. I think that's the majority of people. Then there's a small and growing group, I think, of people who are looking for more discovery in retail and are looking to, you know, find new up and coming brands and their Michael Maher: Mmm, yum. Victoria Berk: in the know on CPG trends you know, that's a little bit of a different story, but I think ⁓ back to what you were saying about people wanting to be healthy and wanting to make good decisions.

It's hard to do that when there isn't a good alternative. And that's really one of the drivers behind no good is that, I said at the beginning, I have a huge sweet tooth, but I still want to be able to enjoy my favorite foods and have the nostalgia of a freshly baked chocolate chip cookie filling up my kitchen. But I just don't think that I, you know, as a consumer, I need to choose between feeling good and having that delicious indulgence. And so that's really what we're building for.

Michael Maher: Mm. Victoria Berk: at no good is giving people the opportunity to enjoy and indulge, but with higher quality ingredients and transparency around what's going into the product so that you know that the decision that you're making is really fueling you so that you can go on and feel good for whatever else you're doing that day and just in your everyday life and not be bogged down by, you know. tons of sugar or chemicals that you might find in some legacy brands and products.

Michael Maher: When you're thinking about, so I think that's all great. When you're about designing a product, because to your point, people don't really want to be thinking about a lot of stuff, but they are going to discover some new things when they're shopping. So they don't want to be bogged down with all this information. And so they're basing stuff off historical preferences.

How are you thinking about when you show up in a grocery aisle for someone, how are you, or just any aisle, how are you thinking about giving them that level of transparency while educating, that they are like, Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm. Michael Maher: I don't know. don't want new information. Like how does that factor into what you're doing from a brand perspective?

Victoria Berk: Yeah, great question. So I know that at NoGood and with our first product, which is our chocolate chip cookie dough, there is something new to people. And that new thing is the ingredients. These are, and again, these are not crazy ingredients that are in our products.

These are all ingredients you would find in your kitchen. Almond flour, organic coconut oil, organic coconut sugar, chocolate chips. But seeing it, you know, these ingredients together as a chocolate chip cookie dough is new. So what I like to think about when I'm thinking about product innovation is the fact that the product itself is new, so let's try and keep everything else as familiar as possible.

So if you think about, for example, Toll House cookie dough, that's the cookie dough that I grew up eating, I don't know about you. Yup, they've been around forever, delicious product. If you can picture their flat rectangular packaging where it's break and bake, it's pre-scored, all you have to do Michael Maher: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Victoria Berk: is break it off, roll it into a ball, and pop it in the oven. I wanted to make this product as intuitive for people as possible, so there's minimal... Michael Maher: Yeah. Victoria Berk: you know, effort required.

You don't need to think so much. The way that you interact with and use this product is very similar to products that you might be buying already, but it has that 2.0 of being made with better quality ingredients. So it feels kind of risky to be buying something new, but there's the familiarity around.

This is a chocolate chip cookie. I know what that flavor is. I know how to prepare this product and you know, that is enough comfort for people to hopefully be willing to try a new product. Michael Maher: We've talked about product innovation on this podcast before.

I had Caroline Grayson of product and prosper. I'm pretty sure I hope I mess up her business name, but she deals a lot with emerging brands and consumer trends and how to think about stuff. And we talked about product innovation and it was such a great conversation because we're saying basically you don't have to reinvent everything. Like product innovation could just be the Victoria Berk: Mm-hmm.

Michael Maher: the delivery is the same, the bake and break is the same, it's just you're getting better ingredients, that's the innovation. Or it could be, it's the same ingredients, but it's a different application how we're doing stuff. So like different format. So it doesn't have to, there's like, I think there were three categories that we talked about from a product innovation standpoint.

It doesn't have to be a it doesn't have to be reinventing the wheel. It could just be, hey, it's a wheel, but it's gonna work better and it's gonna move faster or, Victoria Berk: Right. Michael Maher: It's gonna help you carry more like that. I think sometimes we think about innovation.

It's like everything has to be new. And it's like, no, doesn't. Everything doesn't have to be new. But what you're doing in you're talking about in developing this product is you're giving people innovation.

You're giving them something that's better, but you're doing it in a way that does mitigate risk because people do have risk when they pick something up. I may not like this and if I don't like it, it's gonna go in the trash and I'm wasting money. And I can't guarantee that if it's not fresh produce. Victoria Berk: Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michael Maher: that I'm gonna get my money back from this grocery store. Even then sometimes, you know, that's not a guarantee.

you're reducing the risk, but you're making it a, like people know that they wanna, like I should be buying better stuff. I think that's kind of a general thing that people probably know when they're shopping. So you're playing on something that people know and it made them more aware, but you're reducing that risk at the same time. making it easier to say, okay, I'll give this a shot.

Victoria Berk: Right, exactly. And that's definitely the way that we think about innovation and even, know, in this year and the next year coming up as we're starting to think about some of our products in the pipeline, the lens through which we're thinking about it is indulgence made clean and familiarity but upgraded. ⁓ that is just the way that we are looking at it. But, you know, again, going back to some of the different ways that you can innovate, there's also a boom Michael Maher: Mm.

Victoria Berk: in consumer now for innovation just in packaging. So there are a lot of fresh produce companies. Michael Maher: Mmm Victoria Berk: Fruitist, for example, is one of the big ones and all they're changing is just the packaging that the product comes in. So I think they came out with an on-the-go little container that's filled with blueberries, but it's giving people a new way to use that product.

So instead of it being a package of blueberries that you wash at home and just keep in your fridge, it's an on-the-go option. And that's also innovation. It's just in terms of how this product is packaged. So it's really interesting to think of Michael Maher: Mmm, yeah.

Victoria Berk: all the different ways that you can be innovative in retail and you know provide some sort of familiarity to people because you don't want it to be completely innovative ⁓ in all ways because then it really does get overwhelming for the consumer. Michael Maher: And it's a- that's a lot. for you as a brand to fully educate someone on something that's totally new and that's out of sight of someone's comfort zone. it takes, I think I should introduce you to Caroline.

think she would be a good, if you don't know her, she would be a good person to talk with. We talked about how she had posted one time, speaking of product packaging, it was taking a picture of like a, I don't know, Victoria Berk: Right. Yeah. I would love to meet her.

Michael Maher: shelf of probiotics or a shelf of supplements. And she talked about working with the brand. said, don't design in a, in a, in a vacuum. And I was like, all this stuff on the shelf looks so similar.

was like one brand created this product that really popped out from every thing else. And that's something that Joe Bertundo at Smugrcase talked about is everything in the, in the better for you ice cream aisle was like bright and flowery and color colorful language. And he was like, and, really approachable name, but it was like weird name. Black packaging look totally different.

So it stands out. Like you have to think about what the consumer is going to be experiencing. And that's part of the innovation piece. Like you don't have to overthink it.

Better ingredients, same carton, you know, for the ice cream, same package for you, but making it something that is, that's still approachable. Victoria Berk: Right, exactly. And it's interesting you bring that up. When I was thinking about our packaging initially, I was really, really keen on it being in that paper tray with the break and bake format.

So much so that I could not find anyone who was willing to make this paper tray for me. I remember, I think I called every single different Michael Maher: Mmm. Yeah. Victoria Berk: packaging manufacturer I could possibly find to create this custom packaging ended up having to, you know, look internationally and import this specific packaging so that I could get these paper trays because they were so hard to find.

what's been interesting is seeing some other brands that have popped up and come out with a cookie dough. They've come out with jars and we've actually, we introduced jars this past year, more so for D2C and to Michael Maher: Wow. Okay. Victoria Berk: give people an opportunity to interact with the products in a different way.

But with the goal of wanting people to really bake the product, having it be in the flat tray is so important to me because it makes it so much easier for people to just break it off and pop it in the oven versus the extra step of having to scoop and roll and place. So I have found that other brands that have come out with a cookie dough that's in a jar consume Michael Maher: Yeah Victoria Berk: consumers really end up just for the most part eating it raw, kind of like an ice cream, because the format in which you are buying the product Michael Maher: Hmm.

Yeah. Victoria Berk: really does dictate how you're going to be interacting with it and using it. And if you can eliminate a step for someone of not to portion out the cookie dough yourself and roll it into a ball, instead it's pre-portioned, that really encourages people to interact with the product in another way. So it's been interesting to ⁓ see and I'm hopeful that putting in the effort to really focus on getting our cookie dough into this break and bake packaging will continue to be worth it we're competing with other brands.

Michael Maher: Yeah, I love that for you guys. Well, Victoria, this has been great. This has been so much fun. We could probably go for more hours, I won't hold you to that.

If people want to know more about what you're doing, where can they find you? In the kitchen baking cookies ⁓ where should they look for you if they want to know more about what you're doing ⁓ and no good. Okay. Victoria Berk: always baking cookies in the kitchen, but you can, you can follow along on our Instagram and Tik TOKs at no good foods.

and you can check us out on no good food.com and hopefully look for us in a retailer near you soon. Michael Maher: Love it. All right, people, that's all we got for you.

You don't got to go home, but you got to get out of here. See you later.