Leadership Communication and The Boss with Andy Freed

Speaker A: Hi, everyone, it's Jen De Wall. And on this episode of the Leadership Habit, we are helping you learn to think like a boss. Now, when we talk about boss, it's not the boss that you think. It actually is a real person in the leadership lessons inspired by a famous musician. But before I reveal, let me tell you about today's guest. Andy Fried is the chair of Virtual Inc. Where he has spent more than 30 years helping organizations grow, align, and lead through change. He is a communication guru who has worked with global brands like Microsoft, Meta, and Google. And he's the author of his new book, how to Lead Like a Boss, where he shares a powerful leadership framework inspired by none other. Bruce Springsteen and the art of unforgettable communication. Andy believes great leadership isn't about title or talent. It's about intention, connection, and the way you show up for people. And in today's episode, we're gonna walk through what you can learn from andy's many over 95 concert experiences of seeing Bruce Spinkstein. There's a lot more to learn from this unconventional approach to being inspired by a different leadership experience. I hope you enjoy our conversation on how to lead like a Boss. Hello, Leadership Habit audience. Today we're switching it up. It's going to be like listening to a concert, but a concert that inspires leadership lessons. We're not going to have the music, but we are going to have the inspiration and, uh, to have this conversation. You heard about him, Andy Freed, talking about his latest book, how to Lead Like a Boss. And it's not the Boss that you think. For those that missed the intro, it's none other than, uh, Bruce Springsteen, the Boss, and what we can learn from him, his concerts, and how you can learn in unconventional places. But, Andy, before we dive in, thank you so much for joining us on the Leadership Habit.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks for having me.

Speaker A: I loved our pre call. We're jumping right into a podcast today, and you are just a lovely light of a human being. So thank you so much for joining us. And I really appreciate that instead of maybe writing that typical leadership book, you're taking a different spin, and you're helping our audience find the obvious leadership lessons that are always around us that we might not pay attention to. But before we dive into your book, um, could you go ahead and just tell our audience a little bit about you?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, so I'm the chairman of a company called, uh, Virtual Inc. Uh, based out in, uh, Boston. And we work with associations, standards, bodies, and consortia that are forming, growing, and changing m so things like groups that might come together with multiple companies doing things like creating standards for mobile payment or creating standards for, uh, um, making something interoperable. I've been at that for about 25 years. Before that, I did some political work and some other communications work. But bottom line, for me, I love leadership. I love communications. I think that the two are linked at the hip and are things that people could do better. And, uh, I make it my mission to help people do just that. How can they be better at it? Right.

Speaker A: There's one thing that we always, and that the CEO of Crescom would always say. It's like there's a reason that communication has been in our curriculum and will continue to be in our curriculum. No one has mastered it. It is still that thing. And that's why I'm excited. We're doing a communications esque. It's not all communications. It's a lot of leadership lessons, but thinking about what you can learn again in that unconventional way. So, okay, you decided to write a book about Bruce Springsteen, which confused me as a podcast guest. I'm like, who is this Bruce? As I was looking at your website. Tell me more about your origin of writing how to lead like a Boss.

Speaker B: Sure. So I'll say I am a true dyed in the Wall Bruce Springsteen fan. Um, and you know, you run into those out in the world and you run to a lot of them on the east coast and a lot of them probably among, uh, people that look and sound like me. But I am one of these people who, in 1977, I begged my mom to buy me a copy of Born to Run, Bruce's album at Caldor's department store in New York. And I've been listening to it every week ever since then. So we got our 598 worth. But I'm this close to just selling everything I own and following Bruce and the band around the world. I've seen Bruce in concert about 95 times. Um, looking forward to the next tour. Well, you know, probably be able to crash across the 100 mark. Um, you know, but you know, for me, what was interesting is at some point in this, of seeing Bruce all these times, I started to look at them a little bit differently and look at the way he was working with the audience and look at the way he was working with his band and started to see him as, ah, you know, his nickname is the Boss, and started to see him as the Boss that he is, uh, of. How has he worked with the audience? How's he work with the band. How is he leading these folks, um, and taking them somewhere? And turned that into a LinkedIn post a few years ago. And that LinkedIn post is now turned into a book. Um, so. And now that book is turning into a podcast. Who knew?

Speaker A: Yes, But I think it's. Again, it's an example of the fact that our leadership lessons. How to do things, they're everywhere. How to not do things are everywhere. It's just that we're so busy in our phone sometimes that, uh, we're not paying attention. Or maybe we're just not even thinking about it. Right. Sometimes it's hard to think in line at the grocery store. Is this a leadership moment based on how someone's treating an upset customer or, you know, a complaint? Um, why is his. I just have to ask this because I am. I can tell you. I know a little bit about Bruce Springsteen. I can tell you that there's always a funny memory of my mom listening to Born to Run, because she can't. She cannot, Um, I guess, like, get on time or, like, catch time with music. So, like, her clapping with his drum beats were always just a funny thing to me. She was always offbeat. But why is his nickname the Boss?

Speaker B: You know, it's funny. And that's one of the things that's made the band last, is that he realized that it couldn't be a band of co. Equals, um, when he was coming up. Um, and there's a reason it's not the E Street Band. It's Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band. That he said that somebody has to be in charge. Somebody has to have a light, controlling, hand over the other musicians and make sure that, you know, uh, nobody gets caught with marijuana in their car and that they can't make the next concert as a result, because, you know, they have a boss that's going to look after them, that people understand that there are rehearsals and that they have to be at them because they have a boss who's going to set that standard. So part of the reason that E Street Band and Bruce Springsteen have been around for 55 years is because somebody's been in charge. And, you know, so many other bands that try to do it with, well, we're not going to have a boss. We're all going to be equals. They fall apart, um, because nobody's really driving the ship. So he took on that nickname in the 70s when he set himself apart, and he's lived up to it ever since.

Speaker A: Well, it's. I like that. I obviously never knew that but when we think about leadership, um, for me, I'm like, that's a leadership lesson right there. Like, if everyone's accountable, no one's.

Speaker B: Nobody's accountable.

Speaker A: Or. Yeah. Like, so it's. We need to have that person. And you said it in a light way, right? Not implying that he's doing this authoritative command and control. It's. I'm just here as your guiding hand to make sure that we all go to space.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and that's. I mean, in the end, a great boss helps somebody kind of develop themselves and, you know, find space and kind of, you know, reach new heights, um, and isn't there just to hold them back. And, you know, that's the boss that he's tried to be with the band, and that's the boss that I try to be every day.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, and you have obviously 25 years, like running your organization, Virtual Inc. You're also a speaker and consultant. You have the credibility, the experience of seeing leadership in action and what is effective and whatnot. So to our audience, he's just taking it and packaging it in a way that maybe helps you see the everyday leadership lessons that are around us. So. So let's dive into your book then, Andy, of how to lead like a boss. But one of the first things isn't necessarily it's in your book, but you have a different story that really made this true to you. Um, and you talked about one of the things that we can learn is being intentional with time. Share what you mean by that with our audience.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, so it's funny, um, a little parallel also, that last couple of years ago, Bruce had to take time off of his tour for health reasons. Um, when he developed a peptic ulcer and he had to cancel a whole bunch of shows. Um, well, for myself, I guess. Uh, maybe I took Phantom too far, um, because, uh, this fall I got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and had to step away from my day to day responsibilities in my company. But what that's done for me is it's really accentuated how intentional you want to be with planning, how intentional you want to be with time. I went from being somebody who had basically a bottomless well of energy, um, and could use that as my secret sauce, to now as I'm going through chemo and going through the challenges that cancer brings. Um, I'm like a car with a two gallon gas tank. And if you're a car with a two gallon gas tank, you think about the route you're taking everywhere. Um, and you make sure that you get there in the most direct way possible and you don't waste any time looking for a parking space or going on side trips. That's intentionality. And it's the same way, not just on trips, but for me with communication. As I'm communicating with people, I'm really thinking about how to make the most of that communication because I know that I don't have the energy to spare, um, to take the side trip along the way. So intentionality is so much a piece of it. And for leaders, what I'll say is it doesn't have to be the starkness of a health diagnosis. It's recognizing things. Like as a CEO of my company, if I do four staff meetings or four to six staff meetings per year of the whole staff really, that gives me over the course of the year, two to three hours that I have of standing in front of my entire company talking about what's going on. That is a very finite resource. How I use that, um, and using that effectively is really up to me as a leader, but can be the make or break for my company and for me as a leader.

Speaker A: I think I love that of realizing like that's a really small amount of time to make an impact. And every moment there is going to be matter or is going to matter. And coming back to leaders, think about this, what he just said, you don't have the extra energy. And he learned that also through his cancer diagnosis. But in a day to day you likely don't have the extra energy. You are going from meeting to meeting meeting, you are putting out fire drills. And uh, when you think about communication, by avoiding uh, an important conversation, you might be draining more energy or creating more issues down the line. By not thinking before you're communicating and creating confusion, you're burning more energy. Think about these ways that you're actually working harder and not smarter by not being intentional with your time. It's like, that's just, I feel like I see it all the time. I see it all the time. We think we're just, we're flying through, right? We, I get it. I talk about burnout and that is my day to day burnout. And I get it. We are busy, but sometimes it's about slowing down to speed up.

Speaker B: And, and you see it all the time also now because things have gotten too easy. Um, you know, now it's gotten to a point where there's no forethought that goes into communication because I can click a button. I'm talking to Jen in Littleton, Colorado. Um, you know, there you are. Um, and, you know, you're on screen, and before you know it, we're communicating. Um, or I can do what most staff. Most people do if they have a staff meeting coming up. You know, I would say 90% of the people I see, if they have a meeting coming up, the first thing they'll do is say, well, we had this meeting last month. Let me take those slides, change the title on them to this month, and then I'll just start modifying those slides. Guys, it is not about your slides. It's about what you're trying to say and your message. But we start with just like, uh, we can just crank out some PowerPoint slides, and then we're communicating, right? Then I'll just read them aloud to people. It'll be great. Um, that is not communication. It's business karaoke. When you're reading your slide to somebody, um, and it's just horrifying for everybody.

Speaker A: I've never heard that phrase before, and I'm probably always going to think of that every time I see someone directly reading off of their PowerPoint.

Speaker B: It is a horrible version of business karaoke, but this brings in.

Speaker A: So the first point that you wanted to make was being intentional at the time. Now, the next piece that we are going into, which we're into right now, of what we can learn, um, from the boss, or how to lead like a boss, is preparation in communication. Um, please remember business karaoke, because that is so true. That is the song that no one's even listening to because they're reading it before you, and they're thinking about everything else that is on their plate. But what do you mean about, you know, how does Bruce, or how does he do that?

Speaker B: Let's start with Bruce. Uh, so, you know, for a Bruce show, it starts not when he takes the stage, but it starts a few hours before. A few hours before every show. He sits backstage and he pulls out a pen and a piece of paper, and he writes down the set list for the show. Um, what are the songs he's going to play? And in that set list isn't just a list of songs, but in that set list is a story. Because he knows things like, well, Bruce suffers from anxiety and depression, so he knows he wants to start the show big. Because if he starts the show big, as he says, I feel like everyone's gotten their money's worth in the first five minutes, then I can relax. So he knows that his first song has to capture the audience, be a big opener Then he might want to quiet things down and tell a story or two, um, and connect with the audience at a different level. Maybe it's an acoustic song and then the um tells the story beforehand. Maybe there's something else that he's connected to the audience. Then he might say, well, I've done that. Now I want the audience to participate. I need a song that they all know the words to, um, so that I can hold the microphone out and hear them sing it back. Then I need to finish big. He's written over the course of that set list the story arc for what everyone's going to think, feel and do over the course of the next three hours. For most leaders, they do. Instead of that, they do the equivalent of Bruce just getting up on stage with the band and starting to play and hoping for the best. They've never written out what they want people to have come away from it. So before any communication for me, whether it's a big, uh, staff meeting, a one on one meeting, a performance review, I start with that set list. I start with what do I want this person to think, feel and do at the end of this meeting? Um, if it's a one on one meeting or a meeting with a hundred people I'm writing out for myself, what do I want my audience to think? How do I want them to feel? Because if they're not feeling safe, for example, they can't hear. If they're not feeling the right way, they might not be able to hear my message. And then a clear sense of an action step. What do I want them to do at the end of this um, and how have I made that unambiguous? So I start with that and I start with that often, just like Bruce does on a piece of plain old paper. Before I start with my PowerPoints, before I start hitting record on a podcast on any of those things, it starts with that and then everything else emanates from it.

Speaker A: I do communications coaching, and that is the first question outside of having your Billboard statement, what do you want them to know? Feel or do? I don't do, think, feel or do I know? Feel or do, um, either way, say similar things because I think so many people don't realize they're thinking about. And tell me your perspective on this, Andy. You're thinking about the message and the song you want to sing. So you're starting to play and you're not thinking about why your audience or how they are going to react or what is the purpose of the meeting. You are even inviting them to what's the outcome that you are seeking for? And so you start singing and it makes no sense. And then people are like, this could have been done in an email, or, why did I waste my time? What do you mean?

Speaker B: And those meetings, by the way, just expand on that. Like, you know, and I hate to kind of keep railing on PowerPoint, but you go to those meetings sometimes and somebody will say, they'll have, you know, somebody in the audience will put their hand up to have a question and the speaker will reply with my least favorite reply. Well, if you'll wait, I'm getting to that in a few slides. Um, it's not about your freaking slides. It's about what the audience needs to hear. And what you described was putting the audience first and thinking about, what do they need? What do I want them to, in your case, know, feel or do. In my case, think, feel or do. But it's thinking about that audience and understanding that in the end, it's not about you and your message and your slides. It's about the audience and how you're trying to, you know, to engender something with them.

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Speaker A: Let's break this down for an audience that might not be as familiar with using this framework. So think, feel, do. If you're sitting down with your client or you're sitting down to prepare before you're going on stage or coaching someone, when you think of think, um, just so we can give an example, maybe it's about change, because I know you talk about change as well. So if we were going to take like a change is coming through, how might you apply the think, feel and do framework if you were a leader? Just putting this into the hands of our audience, who may be on from familiar with it.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. So, so let's take it even more specific. Like a change. Like, let's just say I'm announcing to my, my company that we have a new health insurance plan. Um, and, you know, so what do I want them to think? I want them to think that they've got coverage. I want them to think and Understand and know your point. What are the points about this health insurance plan? What are the, what are they covered for? What are they not covered for? How do they sign up for it? How does this work? But none of that works unless I think about fueling first. Because what I have to remember is if I walk in and just start prattling off my bullet points and my slides about the health insurance, what I'm forgetting is that what my audience is thinking about is, wow, health insurance is really important to me. I wonder if I'm going to lose my doctor. I wonder if this is going to be a change that means I'm going to pay more money out of pocket. I wonder if they understand that I'm really afraid because I think I might be sick right now and I need great health insurance right now. And I wonder if they really looked at enough plans to be able to understand, like how important this is to me and get the best plan for me, or are they just trying to save money. So if I don't address that fueling part, my audience is going to be really closed off to the note. They're never going to be able to think the way I want them to think because I haven't addressed their feelings. I haven't addressed making them feel safe. And that's something that, uh, Simon Sinek years ago wrote that, uh, great leaders make people feel safe. Um, so that safety feeling and then the do piece is if I just leave that meeting and say, well, that's it, now you're on your own. They don't know what to do. So having specific action steps of saying, now here's how you sign up. We've established a special webpage here. Here's the next step of it and making that really, really explicit for folks and remembering along the way that to hear something, people need to really understand and to understand something, people need to hear the same message seven times. Um, so you need to both have this rubric, but be willing to repeat it and repeat it with some energy time and time again.

Speaker A: Can you just say that last part? Because I have a client that is probably going blue in the face. And here's a scenario, someone might be able to relate to this. They are part of an executive team. There is a small change in process that's coming to what the people that created the change are considering a small change. They are so annoyed that they have to communicate it, uh, more than one time. And this is an organization that has a significant amount of people that are reporting through them. So I think it's like 800, if you want to look at it that way, communicating one time to 800 people. And so there's a conflict between my client who is trying to say, can we communicate this more or in a different way? And then there's frustration with the executive leader that says, I just want them to know and do this already. Stop making excuses and asking for this in a different way. And I think, like I tried to tell my client, there's just maybe a lack of understanding on what it really takes to drive a message home. So can you please, for the sanity of our audience, expl. Expand and why that's so important?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, repetition is the key to all of it. I mean, so people have to hear a message seven times to retain it. And you know, that is just neuroscience talking right there. Um, and the problem is what you just described is what usually happens in the presenters before you have the presenter. The presenter starts to feel like, well, I've said this before, I'm going to say it a different way. Well, that's like going out. If your doctor gives you an antibiotic and says, you have to take this pill seven times and you decide to stop taking it after three, you're going to get sick again. It's your fault. You didn't follow the recommended daily dose. The recommended daily dose is seven times. Now let's step back on that to Bruce. Bruce has played his biggest hit is Born to Run. He has played it 1878 times live as of today. Um, and he understands that when people go to a Bruce show, it's part of what they want to hear. They want to hear the biggest hit. So he's going to play it. He also understands that he can't just phone it in because within that audience is somebody who's never heard it before, who's never been to a Bruce show, and they're wondering what all the fuss is all about. And there's also somebody like me, a 57 year old bald guy, saying, I wonder how this time is going to compare to the other 94 times I've heard him play Born To Run. Has he lost a step? Is it still as good? It's going to play a different version right now. Is it going to be acoustic? You know, so he brings it as all and gives it his all every time. 1878 times and somebody's complaining about the third time. They have to tell everybody that their health insurance has changed. Um, you know, we have to stick with that message and be. And then in the end another piece that Bruce has said is, you know, you have a great pop song when your audience can sing it back to you. And there's gotta be a satisfaction if you're Bruce or any other artist of, uh, standing on stage and hearing your lyrics come back to you from 20,000 people out there. That's how you know you've arrived on a message. So that doesn't happen the first time somebody hears it, you know, so that happens, you know, the seventh time, can they sing it back to you? That's when you know that you've. That you've reached it. So it's not about how many times you've said it, it's whether they can say it back to you. That's really the yardstick you should be measuring yourself against as a leader.

Speaker A: I would give you a mic drop moment right there because I think that is such an important reflection question for leaders. Can your team, the people, your audience, who you're trying to communicate this message to, can they sing it back to you? Because if they can't, there's a chance they need to hear it more or hear it differently. Or maybe you could have communicated so much additional details in an effort to sound smart or to sound blank that you have completely diluted the point of your message where they don't even know what they're supposed to be singing back to you.

Speaker B: And, um, that's the difference between me being at a Bruce show, me being at a Taylor Swift show. At a Taylor Swift show. When I went to the Eras tour with my daughter, I was happily singing along, but I was saying the wrong words and the wrong lyrics, saying phonetically what I thought I had heard and discovering that it turns out that's not even close. Um, so now if I'd heard those lyrics a few more times, I'd start to get it right. Um, and that's what you're looking for as a leader, is that they're singing it back to you correctly. Because even with the best of intentions, people get it wrong.

Speaker A: Yes. And that's the important piece. Best of intentions assume positive intent. People aren't trying to drive you bananas. They're trying to make sense of what you said. But if you only said it once, they only have one shot to get that ready. Okay, so we've so far talked about lessons learned. Intentional time communication, the, uh, preparation and going to the think and the feel and do, and of course asking yourself, can your audience sing it back to you? Now, moving into another lesson, which I think is so important, you talked about the performance element of leadership. What did you mean by that?

Speaker B: A few things. I think that Tom Peters years ago called leadership or performance performance. And I love that line. Um, and I think so many leaders forget that. First of all, they have to be the pinnacle of belief in their organization. When you see a Springsteen show, Bruce's energy is the tiest energy of anybody in the arena because he recognizes that it goes down from him. Um, he can't expect the audience to bring more than he's bringing himself. And you see that with leaders, particularly with what you describe of when they have to repeat a message or they just start to repeat that message. But because they've said it before, they now start to say it with a little bit of ennui in their tone and a little bit of, like, lack of energy and lack of enthusiasm in their tone. Well, if I come and present to my company and my energy level is a 7 out of 10, I can't expect that my company is going to receive it as an 8 out of 10. They're going to be a 6 or a 5. They're going to be a little bit below me. So understanding that one piece of the performance is that belief, and nobody believes in your message more than you do. Um, so really conveying that as you do it. Another piece of that leadership as a performance is recognizing that sometimes you're performing when you're not even on stage. So if I have a staff meeting and somebody else is presenting, and as they're presenting, I'm looking at my watch and looking at my phone, I might not think I'm communicating, but, man, I am saying a lot, um, to everybody in that room, because eyes are on me as a leader, on how am I reacting to this, what am I thinking about it? And what people are seeing is, oh, Andy's looking at his phone and looking at his watch. What they're taking away is, well, this isn't very important. Um, he's signaling something. So all of those performance elements go into this, uh, whether you like it or not. And the last piece of it, I'll say this as we, uh, do this on a podcast, is understanding the technical elements of a performance as well. Um, we're six years into the time since the pandemic when everybody went on Zoom, and yet we still have people that can't find the mute button on zoom. At some point, that stops being quaint and starts being your fault. Um, if people can't hear you, they're definitely not listening. At some point, you have to start taking responsibility for things like Just as Bruce does a mic check before every show. I've never been to a Springsteen show where I couldn't hear him. I've been to a lot of podcasts and webinars where somebody's on mute, you can't find the button, or they're sitting in a dark room and they're backlit and I can't see them. Um, and all of those things take away from communication. All of those things can be solved with simple preparation. Again, we're six years past the pandemic. It's time to find the mute button and buy a ring light. Um, and, um, make yourself, if that's how you're presenting yourself, make it professional.

Speaker A: I think there's a lot of people, um, no, you hit on one of my grievances with virtual meetings. It's. I know people don't like to be on camera. 60% of communication is non verbal. I don't know any other way to say that. Like, that's how important having your non verbals are. People being able to see each other, to be able to understand. And if you bring it back to Bruce Springsteen, I could not picture any concert just saying, going to do this completely in the dark. And, uh, just to see how you would respond. You want to see them. You want to immerse yourself in the message and the experience. Like, there's no artist that's going to do that. And otherwise why would you pay to see them? You could do a sing along and how do you even know it's them? How are you connecting with the message? Like, please put your dang camera on. Because there's just a lot that you're losing in terms of building trust, of sending your message home by being off camera. If you need to take five minutes and eat your lunch, eat your lunch. But you still need to come back on camera.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And also you should take breaks for lunch so you're not doing it during a meeting. And all companies should have that. Sorry, that's a little tangent. But coming back to that, because, I mean, a big piece of it as a leader, performance, the performance element of leadership. You're a leader. What you say or do not say is going to be used for or against you. And, uh, the hardest thing that I think, and it goes for all of us, whether you have a title or not, perception is reality. And I remember learning that lesson thinking, like, because it was Jen, you laugh so much when you're outside of the cubes. Like, this is early on in my career. Like, why are you laughing so Much. I didn't realize that people thought that because I was giggly and like laughing and talking to my friends on the way to lunch, that that somehow came back to the perception about how I did my job. And, uh, that was a really hard message. And I. Whether I think it's fair or not, I still have to understand that there's truth in that, that I might not get another shot or an opportunity or another first impression to show someone, like, I have to pay attention, that that perception is reality.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Well, going back to Bruce, like, Bruce isn't going to put on a bad show because that's going to then say, even if he had this, I would never spend the money that people are paying on Bruce Springsteen, because why bother? He's done it before and that was the best he's ever gotten. I'm not giving 500 or I don't even know how much money you've spent in the 95 times that you've seen him.

Speaker B: M. Let's not total that up. That probably would be a good number for me to know.

Speaker A: That's. Yeah, right. You're like, I don't want to do that one. But perception is reality and people are paying attention. I mean, in this trust, it's so important right now where people are, I would say, on edge more than we've ever seen it before. There's so much mistrust that are happening in organizations, whether it's people quiet, quitting, um, disengaging, leaving the company. The number one thing that people want to feel is trust between you and them if you're their leader and if you're not paying attention to your reputation or your leadership performance, you might be inadvertently breaking. Absolutely.

Speaker B: And you know, you mentioned also the technology and the video and how important it is to have your camera on. I'll also go a step further of that. There's still value to that face to face meeting and recognizing that one of the ways we build trust, just as an example, is, um, you know, we build trust in part through eye contact. Eye contact is not possible in an online meeting. You can't look at the camera and look at the screen at the same time. Nobody's been able to figure that out. Um, you know, so understanding that every now and then getting together and looking somebody in the eye and that time that you might be spending talking about things other than work, that's how you build trust and relationships. And that's the currency upon which kind of great leadership and great communication runs.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Okay, we get. We have time to Go into your last segment, um, of what you learned of how to lead Like a Boss, which is all about the end of the. Of his shows. What can we learn from the end of, uh, a Bruce spring scene in E Street Band? What can we learn from the end of their shows?

Speaker B: Yeah, so one of my favorite moments of the show is at the very, very end when the music stops and Bruce retreats to the back of the stage, and everybody who was on stage with him files past him and he shakes their hand, whispers something in their ear, and thanks them for a great show. And he does that whether they played with him for 55 years, as Gary W. Talent has his bassist, or if they've just started playing with him. On this tour and this past tour, he had 19 people on stage with him. And I would watch night after night as he would thank those people. And I would take a video of it every night, and I'd send it to my chief of staff and say, help me be this good, um, because it's so important. And he does that for a few different reasons. One, when you hear the band members talk about it, what they say is, for 10 seconds every night, Bruce Springsteen makes me feel like the most important musician on the face of the earth. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing as leaders? Helping people feel better, helping create more leaders? And it's also recognizing, you know, years ago, William James wrote that the deepest human need is the need to be appreciated. You know, think about that. The deepest human need, deeper deeds and sex, deeper needs than money, deeper needs in power that need to be appreciated, to have somebody to say thank you to you. And that's something which I think leaders need to think about that as being an intentional thing that they do and something which they do by habit. Um, back to kind of your terminology of you should make a habit of showing appreciation to those around you and create structures that enable you to do so. Love watching Bruce do that. And I've tried to bring that into my own life of, what are those moments that I can spend just 10 seconds with somebody and make them feel like the most important musician on the face of the earth? And I think that we have those moments every day, but we're often looking at our phone instead of looking at the moment.

Speaker A: I love that when you talk about all the work that Bruce might do to create this experience, but at the end of the day, the experience can't be, uh, delivered unless we think and show appreciation towards those that are making it happen. So if you're not taking that moment to. Of appreciation or gratitude at the end of the show, you're dismissing that. And how often do we do that as leaders of, um, we don't take the time. Like right now we're so busy that we're not taking the time or we're giving maybe very, I don't know, like, good job. And it doesn't. It's not tied to something significant to how they created an outcome or improved a process. Take the time. People want to feel that. They want to feel that they matter to your team.

Speaker B: And even somebody that's played with him for 55 years wants to hear it. Um, and how easy it would be for Bruce as, uh, you know, arguably one of the biggest rock stars on the planet. Um, how easy it would be for him just to walk off that stage and retreat to his own dressing room. And nobody would think any kind of differently about it. They think, well, that's what rock stars do. Um, but he recognizes it's time to say thank you to everybody. Every leader should recognize that, you know, that's such an important part of what they do, you know, fulfill that deepest human need to be appreciated.

Speaker A: Yes, we have to wrap the podcast now, but before we go into the how the audience can get in touch. Actually, I want to ask this. I'll ask how can they get in touch with you? Then I have one final question. How can our audience. Andy, I really like this conversation. Again, I love that this is just a different way that we can. Can find leadership, uh, all around us and be inspired by it and show up differently. And you talked about whether it's preparing within your communication, thinking about the think, feel, do, um, making sure your audience can sing it back to you, being intentional with your time, um, having the performance element of leadership and of course, like, showing gratitude at the end of the show and taking appreciation. Those are a lot of things. And I know your book has more. How can our audience get in touch with you and find out more about you and how to lead like a boss?

Speaker B: Uh, pretty easy. I was early the domain name race. So you can just go to andy freed.com um, and, uh, you know, there's more information about the book, more information about me, contact information, and I'm happy to commit about any leadership questions or communications questions people have. So that's, you know. Www.andyfreed.com okay, great.

Speaker A: Here's my final question. Have you ever been able to meet him?

Speaker B: I have. Um, and what was so pleasing was that he met the moment of my meeting him by understanding how important it was for me to shake his hand. Um, and that's something which he was, I will say I've met him twice on just on his book tour and what I liked is he was fully present for both meetings of um, you know, for all the time he spends just shaking fans hands and you know, doing that kind of thing. He understands that for me this was a really important moment in my life and he was present for, for it and he met me there at that moment. And that's something which I think is also really important for leaders to understand, is that what might be just another moment for you could be something that is critical for somebody else. Um, and great leaders function recognizing that every moment could be that moment for them.

Speaker A: I love that. That's a great closing message. Andy Freed, thank you so much for joining us. On the list Leadership Habit. To our audience, go out and check out how to lead like a boss. Thank you for joining us, Andy. Um, until next time.

Speaker B: Thank you. Jen.

Speaker A: Uh, thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Leadership Habit. I just really enjoyed this conversation. It was fun, it was different and it shows you that leadership lessons are all around us. Maybe the next concert you go to, you'll notice some things that you can take away to try or avoid. And of course, if we at Crescom can help you develop your leadership skill set, improve your team, we would love the opportunity to do so. We're a global leadership development company, which means that we specialize in making leaders better by giving them the tools and skills that they need to be successful. If you want to know more about us before you buy, request a complimentary leadership skills workshop. This is a experience that can be done both virtually or in person, where we come in and help you and your team work on a common language, solve your organization's challenges, and hey, maybe even have fun. You can request that leadership skills workshop@, ah, crosscomm.com and finally, if you know someone that would love to hear this message, maybe another Bruce Springsteen fan, or maybe someone that could just be inspired by hearing and seeing leadership done in a different way, share this episode with them. And don't forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. Until next time, thank you so much for giving us your time and attention. It means a lot.