Preparing for a Defining Moment: The Obama Foundation's Investment in Leadership

Speaker A: From the training standpoint, managers are your highest roi. They're going to be the ones that make the difference no matter what. And if I'm going to intervene, I'm going to improve anybody, it's. It's the manager that is going to be the highest return on my time. And Life Labs came in and basically provided a through line experience for every employee of, like, the behaviors that matter. Trying to set these managers up for success by providing them training on these behaviors and like, endorsing the idea that, like, there's many ways to do things, but this is the way that we think would be most efficient for you.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Leader Lab podcast. I'm Makayla Mathrey, Chief Marketing Officer at Life Labs Learning. If you're a senior people leader, you're navigating a workplace that's changing faster than ever. This season we're exploring what it really takes to build resilient and adaptable leaders, managers and teams. Let's dive in. Welcome to the Leader Lab. My name is Makayla Mathrey and today I am joined by Patrick Choquette. We're so excited to have you. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're really excited to be recording down here live in Charleston, South Carolina today. Patrick Choquette is the Director of Learning and Development at the Obama Foundation. His career spans public service, global development, innovation and leadership development. From serving as a Peace Corps volunteer in Ghana to working on the 2008 Obama campaign to leading innovation partnerships at the Peace Corps with organizations like Duolingo and NASA. He led global learning and development at One Acre Fund supporting more than 9,000 employees across eight countries in work that impacted over 1.5 million farmers. Today at uh, the Obama Foundation, Patrick focuses on building stronger managers, more connected teams and learning cultures that can scale across the organization during a transformational moment tied to the opening of the Obama Presidential center in Chicago. Excited to hear more about that. Patrick plays a crucial role in shaping a multi year partnership with Life Labs Learning. Focused on leadership development across managers, individual contributors and frontline staff, he has helped shape more consistent leadership practices, stronger communication and shared learning experiences across the foundation. In this conversation, we're going to talk about winding career paths, leadership in mission driven organizations, scaling learning across diverse audiences, and what it really takes to build cultures rooted in growth, adaptability and hope. Welcome again. We are so excited to have you on the podcast today.

Speaker A: Thanks. Thanks for that intro.

Speaker B: First off, how you doing your solo parenting this past weekend, which can be a little full on.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm basking, uh, in the joy, uh, that brings and then the relief of it being over.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then you appreciate the partnership. I feel like there's been a little bit of a trend here that folks that we've had on the podcast are raising toddlers. So I also like to ask, like, how many hours of sleep did you get last night?

Speaker A: Do you want to reflect on. Actually, we got good sleepers at our house. A professional trainer over here.

Speaker B: Oh, okay. Well, then you should probably come over to my house because, uh, I think last night I got like four hours of sleep. So I'm always, It's real. I'm always telling the team. I'm like, take everything I say with a grain of salt because I'm slightly sick.

Speaker A: No, been there. It's just, you know, like, we're in a good phase.

Speaker B: Yeah. And how old are your kiddos, Patrick?

Speaker A: I have a four year old son and a one year old, so.

Speaker B: Son and a one year old. Amazing. Amazing. Awesome. Well, we start every episode with the same question, and that is, can you share one small behavioral shift that you've made recently as a leader and what

Speaker A: impact that had a shift I've made recently is a bit of, just like a reminder of how I learn. It's a reflection of that. It's. I. I've moved to like project based learning for myself. So I feel like I got into like a habit of just listening to podcasts like this one, watching some LinkedIn learning video, reading some marketing email from Culture Amp or whatever. I realized that like, I had blocked some time off for this, like, learning to happen, you know, on my calendar. And then I was always, I was never doing it. And so I just was like figuring out like, why that is, like, so I switched just like, uh, a. Like, okay, what do I, how do I learn myself? A little bit of reflection and it's sort of like project based learning. So I kind of created a task, something that I didn't think I could do, and then went about learning everything I needed to know to be able to do that task.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: So that, that really. And then I found myself, uh, at 11:30 at night.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Learning. That was like an indicator that that's like, oh, that's a reminder of how I actually want to learn myself.

Speaker B: That's so interesting. So instead of just more topical, you're like, here's a thing I want to do and then I'm going to figure out how to do that. And then in the middle of that, pick up kind of the skills and what I need. What are some examples? Like what are some of the projects

Speaker A: that you've trying to figure out how to do AI better. Basically how to use it. Um, and how to use it with the tools that are available this week as opposed to the tools that were available three weeks ago when I last. Yeah. You know, ah. Formulated an understanding of how it worked. And so this one was like, got some data that's in workday. I want to visualize it and share it across my team. Basically just went to Gemini. It's like, here's the problem, this is what I want to do. Ask me a bunch of questions about what I, you know, figure out what I actually want to accomplish. Push me to be more simple about it, you know, nudge me and you know, to learn different things. And just like a pretty good like prompt that basically just said like, this is what I do, but like I want to learn how to do it. That led to me like building a bunch of like dashboards.

Speaker B: Amazing. Yeah. How was the end result? Like how did the product look when you were great. Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's pretty, I mean it is amazing now like the fact that you can just have this AI who can kind of just like coach you through any problem. Like I don't know how, like it's not working or like the filter is messed up. Like what could be the problem. And to me it was just like a. Yeah. Recognition of uh, like how it can just sort of guide you.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Through whatever issue you have to get to a product.

Speaker B: Uh, totally. I think a lot of us have had that experience specifically with AI as well. And it sounds like some of that bled into like life outside of work too. Like you're saying you're working till 11 o' clock at night. And I think that's something I've noticed especially as honestly there's a learning curve with all the AI models. Right. Like I'm a clawed super user at this point and I still have barely scratched the surface on like what's capable. But also use ChatGPT for a long time and with all of these it's like there's not time in the workday to do that. So. And I think that's a trend I've noticed with folks. It's like, well, I spent the weekend trying to figure out XYZ and that's where for me a lot of that kind of learning is happening.

Speaker A: Completely agree. I feel like it's hard to put a time bound on that because you just, that kind of like forces you to skip over some stuff. Or as opposed to be like, what did I do there? Or like, you know, asking it a bunch of questions to help you actually absorb it as opposed to just building something.

Speaker B: Totally, you know, Totally. I think there's like actually a great nugget in there too, in terms of like, as we're learning these technologies to really have something specific that you're trying to do with it. You're like, I want to visualize this data, uh, for this audience by this time. And then that's going to kind of force the motion versus Right. Be a little bit more broad, because I do. I also like an avid learner and I find myself listening to podcasts and things and I'm like, oh my gosh, these are all great ideas. Right. And I'm like driving the kids to daycare and I'm like, this is amazing. This is such a great idea. But then like, getting to that, like, implementation, that's the, uh, challenge 100%.

Speaker A: And I just realized that that's. I was on to the next podcast before I ever, like, paused to extract what I was actually gonna do about it.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So then I was like filling my head with a bunch of stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Doing the same thing.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly.

Speaker A: Before, so.

Speaker B: Exactly. So interesting. And probably, uh, there's some tie ins here to learning in the workplace in general. Patrick, I'd love, like a quick tour. Can you talk about kind of your current role, what you're doing at the Obama foundation, and then maybe a little bit of what brought you there as well?

Speaker A: Yeah. So my role now is learning Development Director. So I sit on the people team, team of one. So that means I focus on figuring out what the highest ROI interventions might be at the end of the day. Increase our, uh, staff's perception that this is a great place for them to develop because it's kind of like the North Star that I'm kind of working off of. So that looks like a lot of system building, some training. My time at the Obama foundation is kind of chapter three of my Obama journey. Started with the campaign in 2008, went to the administration for four years working, uh, with the Peace Corps admin, and then now the foundation.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: So the trifecta in between there is a lot of classroom teaching.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So taught high school in the Peace Corps originally. That was my first job. Did some basketball coaching actually a little bit before that. Taught middle school science for a while. So that's been sort of like the journey it's been teaching mixed with Obama throughout and brought me to what I think is just Like a really interesting, like, perfect spot for me. Um, figured, uh, when I was applying, I was like, there's no way I'm not getting this job. Which turned out to be a lot more difficult than it was. But at the time I was like, man, if like in my heart like this, it just feels like a perfect fit.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I just can't I communicate that in the interview?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. What an awesome through line. When you think about the difference between teaching young folks, like high schoolers and adults, uh, what are some, like, the differences? Are there that many differences?

Speaker A: I feel like in the L and D world where like we, we talk about adult learning all the time, I always am like, trying to deep lear what that exactly means. I find that's like a lot of the same principles that I really honed when I was a middle school teacher are the same things that I'm doing, especially when it comes to the facilitation and training part of the L and D work, which I've, I've actually tried to like, make less of my full time job. I feel like that's where, like that part of it, I think I understand what works and what doesn't work in terms of getting people to engage.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Sidebar. When I really figured out teaching was probably in like year three or four of teaching middle school kids who just have this amazing feedback loop of letting you know when they're not engaged.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's so true.

Speaker A: And so therefore, in. When I was in Peace Corps teaching in Ghana, to high school kids, they looked like they were engaged. They're looking at me. They're very well. Everybody's like, well behaved. But I was just figuring it out. And, uh, in retrospect, they were not engaged. They were just complying. And so in middle school, I think I learned what creates engaging facilitation, what creates engaging content. And I feel like those lessons I've learned, I apply now to adults and the same thing, you got to get people to engage.

Speaker B: I love that middle school as a training ground. I actually taught middle school for a year. I lasted for one year. And, uh, it was, to this day, I think it was the hardest job I've ever had. Like, it's full on. I like the way you said that though, about the feedback loop. Absolutely. They're very vocal about what's landing and what's not, and they're going to give you harsh criticism. Real time feedback. It's so true. You're literally learning on your feet. You're like, okay, like that didn't land yesterday, but I really need this to translate today. How am I going to try something new? And I felt like I was just constantly iterating and the thing that I oftentimes found worked in my classroom at least was connecting it more to how folks were feeling and like what they were showing up with in their personal lives. And that tended to be a lot more resonant. And that was hard, you know, and like breaking into small groups and trying things in, in different ways, but absolutely like such a proving ground. Um, I think for, for many folks in education.

Speaker A: Yeah. You don't have to ask for feedback.

Speaker B: You do not, you do not. They will give it unsolicited and it's usually spot on. Right.

Speaker A: Which is like especially about my appearance.

Speaker B: Exactly. I think this is so common in L and D that we hear about these kind of non linear career arcs and yours spans, education, public service, political organizing. And now you're at the Obama Foundation. Looking back, what do you think was kind of a common thread through all those?

Speaker A: To me there was like L and D is like the how right now, but the mission and like the what I'm trying to do has kind of been the same throughout. That started when I was a Peace Corps volunteer. Kind of my first baptism into the real world. And just as a young person, 25 years old, moving across the world to Ghana and being confronted with just basically inequality, uh, daily like in my face for two years, I think is became my. I don't know if it's the why or the what, but it's like kind of like that's the problem trying to solve. I feel for me that's like what I'm passionate about is I think the why being like understanding in those relationships I built with the people there at that such a, such a formative time in my own development and like why is it that they have that opportunity and why do I have my opportunity and confronting my own privilege and all those things, uh, before I even knew what that even was, was just like a gigantic formative, uh, emotional bond to what I want to do. Since then it's been all about, okay, what's the mechanism? How do I be most effective? How do I have the biggest impact on that? And that's taken lots of different forms

Speaker B: and specifically kind of focusing on inequality and access. That's uh, so interesting. And it's interesting to think about, like said you went to Ghana when you were 25, like how different maybe that would have been if it had come later in life. Like, it's really like those early years where you're kind of like forming self and trying to figure out like, what is my contribution in the world, like, how am I going to show up? And that's a pivotal moment in it.

Speaker A: Peace Corps experience is uniquely magical in that way. And maybe especially for me at that time, you can imagine, like you're coming out of your college time. Um, yeah, you're seeing beyond your own nose for the first time, questioning a lot of everything. And I felt like I was in an environment that like, basically forced me into really learning. I didn't have a phone, don't have Internet, don't have like tv. There's nowhere to escape. So it's like kind of go out, you experience something. And then like my one like thing that I did was journal a lot. Um, and I think I don't again, that was like intentional. But in retrospect I recognize like how especially like now I see like these life labs behaviors of like, what it is. It's like I was basically extracting the learning pretty much every day. That just like caused me this like, beautiful loop of like, stimulus. Like, uh, an unbelievable new experience. Journal, extract something, try something new, experience something brand new, fail at it, go back, journal about it. And I don't think I would have had the discipline now to do that if I had any other option. But totally, uh, Peace Corps. Like, the electricity is, you know, the. There's only candle burns from, you know, sun goes down at 6 o' clock and it's right on the equator. So 6 o', clock, sun goes down, candle burns for a little bit. There's only so much reading you can do. And then you got your thoughts and

Speaker B: then it's just you. That is so interesting. And I guess like, even now, like, if there was electricity there, like, how that experience would have evolved. Similarly, I spent about nine months in my early 20s in Tanzania and Mozambique. And I also did not have a cell phone, didn't have Internet. And I reflect on that time and I'm like, now most folks in the places where I was absolutely have, uh, have electricity. And so they've got cell phones and Internet. But how powerful that was. Like, I remember like, specifically I was in Northern Mozambique, pretty rural, and I remember just like after a long day where you're trying to communicate, I was trying to learn makua and Portuguese at the same time. And then your brain is just like so fried at the end of the day, but you're like, so engaged and like reflective. I spent uh, my early career, actually working in international education because that was so formative for me early on. And I so strongly believe that, like, those experiences are huge catapults for folks in terms of. Right. Like, understanding not just like inequality, but like how people live and operate around the world and how it's different, but, like, also not that different. Like, I remember, like, my closest friend in Neue Mozambique. I still think about her often. Like, her life was so different than mine, but we were very similar people. Right. And that is, like, powerful when you're in your.

Speaker A: That's what makes it special. If it was like some alien life form that you had nothing to connect with, you'd be like, oh, that's interesting that they do that. But you can see yourself and what they do. Yeah. So I agree. I think that just creates like, something in your brain. It's like some emotional connection to the issues that. Yeah. I think we were lucky enough to have those experiences.

Speaker B: Shifting gears, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, you were part of the 2008 Obama campaign working out of Iowa. Years later, you mentioned you've kind of had the trifecta. Uh, you're now back at the Obama foundation during a really interesting time as they prepare to open the center. So I'd love to hear about kind of what does that full circle journey mean to you personally?

Speaker A: Kind of like going back on that Peace Corps experience, going through that sort of emotional. I don't even, I don't want to call it emotional trauma, but just like emotional stimulus of that experience. My mother sent me a book called Dreams from My Father, um, written by one Barack Obama. And I read that probably about like 75% through my two years. Followed up quickly by the Audacity of Hope, Barack's second book. That again, it's like, timing wise, Barack's message of like a clear unflinching of, like, explanation of how the world is, followed by like a vision of how the world should be, basically gave me hope. And so that I've kind of clung on to that. So I've. So out of that peaceful experience, I came back with like, an understanding of like, what I wanted to do or, like what I wanted to try to do or have a. Or what meant something to me and then hope that it can be done. Plus a real, real, like you were mentioning, like, a realistic view of like, how the world works.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So I wasn't like, naive. So that hope fueled me to stick with.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: This like, hard problem that is, you know, I don't Know, intractable. I don't even know how to explain it, but just, like, at least I feel motivated to stick with it. Right. And so Barack, to me was that he represented, like, uh, a hope of, like, a belief that we could do something about it. And not that he could do something, but I could actually do something about it. And that, ah, if it's even a small part, other people, too, are doing their small parts, and we can all do that. And that, frankly, it's like the effect. It's like the narrative of the museum, you know, Our mission at the foundation is to inspire, empower, and connect people to change their own lives. Fortunately, I got to go with my full family, dad, brother, sister, my nephews, my niece and my kids and my wife, and went through the museum recently. It's about two weeks ago.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: It is a full circle moment, honestly. Back to, like, just, like, reflecting on the last 20 years of my life, um, doing it. And like, maybe what made it, like, really special was we went on Mother's Day.

Speaker B: It's great. It's like a really, um, good moment. When we met for coffee a couple weeks ago and you were telling me about your work with the Obamas, was that, uh, kind of your experience?

Speaker A: So, like, when Barack won, I worked for basically a year and a half every day talking to people, trying to organize and, like, basically communicate and, like, get people on board with this message and giving people hope, which was, like, an amazing experience. Like, went to six different states all across the US Got to organize around gun rights in my district in Colorado, had Columbine High School in it. Got to go to talk about racial equality in Canton, Mississippi, where the book A Time to Kill is based. That's just, again, just kind of opportunity after opportunity. Amazing, um, form of experience. And so, like, by the end, when he won, it was. I kind of. It hit me, like. Like seeing him, except I. It was. I wept like a. So the museum experience, it reminded me of that experience. So I had these, like, the overwhelming, like, joy and, like, reminder. And then, you know, it's also painful a bit one to just be reminded of. You know, I was knocking on people's doors. Not all of them are so friendly. Just like the pushback that we were getting, the misinformation, you know, in retrospect now I recognize how that, like, kind of blossomed into this counter movement that exists today. So it was a bit of, uh, like a reminder of that. That part of the experience as well. Which is. Which was sad. It was very sad. I remember being Sad at the time. You know, like, ah, it didn't make any sense to me at the time. Still doesn't. And then there's just like. There is just like a level of disappointment of like. Yeah. I'm not naive enough to. To think that it wasn't worth it. Uh, that's not how I feel at all. I feel like it's. It was complete. We made a gigantic difference. What we're experiencing today is a ripple effect of that gigantic difference. It's hard to not feel a little bit disappointed, uh, on just like how a counter narrative caught on with certain people that led to this, led to this moment. We're on. So ah, a lot of uh, emotions that go there. And I think that's hitting pretty much everybody who goes there. I remember one of the first changes we made in a meeting after we started having people go through the museum. Nothing to the museum. My colleagues had done it. Unbelievable job putting it all together. We had to put tissues into the. Because people needed those.

Speaker B: Like actually really emotional.

Speaker A: Yeah. So like it's hit everybody.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: In a way. And I think it's like a release of.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What we've like swallowed over the last.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, I don't know how many years.

Speaker B: 20. 20. Yes. Crazy, right? All right, shifting gears a little bit. I love for listeners to hear about your work at One Acre Fund and maybe even before we get into that, if you can explain a little bit about One Acre Fund.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: I'm familiar with them because I spent um, significant amount of time in East Africa and always like really admired them from afar and was really inspired by that organization. But while working there, you were supporting, learning across this massive organization with thousands of employees and dozens of languages telling us a little bit about One Acre Fund and kind of your work there and how that informed what you're doing today.

Speaker A: So One Acre Fund is a farmer supporting um, social enterprise with a mission of essentially solving poverty. I mean it's super ambitious. And the mechanism being providing access to better seeds, fertilizer, training to help a farmer grow more on their farm and in turn get more money. Their bottom line is, is basically an roi. Like how much money can we be taken in terms of donor funds and how. What's our ratio to turning that into increased dollars for our clients? So we're always looking for like, uh, measuring impact in a really crystal clear way. Allowed us to run a nonprofit and think like a business basically. That's one of our principles there. So amazing experience of like showing how a really well run organization can make a huge impact to me. That was like a eye opening moment to me. Is that. Not that I didn't know this, but it's not about just like wanting to do the right thing, but like, that there is like an execution factor. You know, I was heartbroken by the fact you learned about like a lot of nonprofits that take $1 and turn it into 50 cents for people.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Um, um. And, um, we were laser focused on not being that. And I have a lot, a lot of credit to our leadership. Andrew Yoon, the CEO.

Speaker B: Yeah. Fascinating.

Speaker A: Yeah, They're. These guys are like amazing leaders and I have like amazing managers. And so for me at that time, I was basically exposed to like, what a environment is that allows for like gigantic individual growth while you're there.

Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker A: So a system of like, you got measures, you know, if you're moving up and down, you got honesty, you got feedback, you've got an amazing manager. All those things, like, it just exposed me. I hadn't had that experience before. And it's really the inspiration for me of like, okay, how can I recreate that environment as an L and D professional? Because I feel like that systematic environment is what led. It wasn't a magical PowerPoint training, it was all those things combined.

Speaker B: Interesting. Uh, and your role there, were you working in learning and development as well?

Speaker A: Yeah, so m. It was my first like, L and D title role.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so I was like, I was Global Learning Development Director, which basically meant I managed about a team of 15 folks across our eight countries.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Who ran L and D programs within their own country programs. But personally on that journey was, you know, I think it's interesting because it's like I was learning how to do L and D, but, um, but really I was learning how to be a manager. And there was like this just fundamental structural issue that caused me from moving from an individual contributor mindset to a manager mindset, which is that I don't speak Luganda, Kenya, Kiswahili. I can't. It's hard for me to connect culturally with eight different countries. And I had these facilitators in my staff who could. And I realized that, like, even if I wanted to, I couldn't. And so I had to figure out a way to how to empower, uh, these folks.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was like a real constraint.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Actually this is not even like, oh, I'm just going to do it myself. It's like, no, I'm actually incapable of doing that. And therefore I must figure out how to give these Folks the skills and resources to do the work completely.

Speaker A: The real. That actual, real constraint. I think, uh, I don't know if I ever would have got there, because I feel like everybody kind of understands that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: But most people still act as individual contributors.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, so in parallel, I was going through that. My own experience as a manager and running into failures, trying to be an individual contributor.

Speaker B: Still interesting.

Speaker A: Right. Had a bit of a mind shift. Shift, again, forced by that, like, structural, um, aspect of it. And then had some success as a manager and saw impact scale exponentially. When I realized, when I got out of people's way and actually support him like a real manager. And I think that effectively allowed me to be able to recognize what good managers do. I also could empathize with, like, the manager experience and all the. Most people I'm working with are still in that journey. They've never been forced out of being an individual contributor. It just basically gave me a vision of how it could be interesting. Um, a real clear understanding of that transition and what that emotional journey is like. And then also just the experience of having employees that work for you and recognizing you set up a system for them to thrive. I have. Emmanuel worked for me in Kenya. He was basically. He worked in the mail room. Once I sort of figured out how to, like, explain what we were trying to do and measure it and made crystal clear on, like, here's how what success looks like. He was so smart. He could figure it out. M. And then he started just, like, blowing up. Now he's like, my job at, like, CARE International and Habitat for Humanity, like, it's just, like, insane. There's just, like, multiple stories like that. And I think it's for my L and D folks. Like, sometimes I was thinking about preparing this interview, and it's like, it comes back to, like, I had this magical retreat.

Speaker B: Yeah. Really? Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, I feel like that's a fantasy.

Speaker B: Yeah. Right. And that kind of is the catalyst. Yeah.

Speaker A: There's, like, fantasy that, like, oh, if we had this, like, amazing team retreat, everything would change. But I. I think I had an experience like that where I went from trying to, like, present information to people to, like, having a clear point of view on the behaviors that I want them to challenging them directly with how to be more consistent in those behaviors, how to measure the impact of those behaviors, basically by success metrics. And anyways, it was just, like a experience of just a total mindset shift of, um, how to actually develop someone. And it was kind of a breaking point there from basically knowledge Based.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Advice giving to skill building and behavior building habits, which is what Life Labs is all about, basically.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And I imagine a lot of effective frequency and also commenting and noticing like, yes, that is the thing. That is the right behavior, like reinforcing the good. Because I think that helps people grow as well. Maybe shifting gears a little bit. You actually met Megan Wheeler, who is a friend of both of ours down here in Charleston. You met her at a garage sale, and she is incredible. I'm sure many folks that listen are familiar with Megan. She's an L and D director now as well, but was a founding member of Life Labs and really built out a lot of our facilitation team and facilitation style. But you met her at a garage sale and then, you know, I'd love to kind of hear about that. What was the origin? And then why did you end up working with Lifelobs?

Speaker A: So we were both going for like a broken down F150 power wheels for yourselves, right? Yeah, M. Yeah. Which now I realize they're just thrown away on the side of the road all the time. You can just get them all the time. But at the time, I was like, I need that. You know, so her and her husband Anton and my wife, and it just kind of connected, talked and then just quick, quickly pick up that, like, Megan is like a really smart person, knows what she's doing. And also, like, as an L and D person, I'm always wondering, like, am I doing the right.

Speaker B: Right there?

Speaker A: Uh, what are you doing? You know?

Speaker B: Um, feedback. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: So, you know, that's where I first. I never heard of Life Labs learning, you know, um, but so I kind of knew that she worked for Life Labs Learning. I started, like, learning a little bit more about it. And then eventually I was thinking, okay, so like, how at the foundation, I'm a team of one. I was already convinced of all these experience. We just talked about that managers are the focus and, like, getting managers to do it. And I knew that you had to have some set defined behavior. In my back of my head, I knew what a good intervention would look like.

Speaker B: Interesting. Yep.

Speaker A: And so started looking at life lapse learning a little bit. But then eventually I just asked Megan straight up and they're like, you're my neighbor, my friend. Is this legit? And she said yes. I personally don't have a high view of L and D consultants.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: Um, yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, not that I have you had

Speaker B: some bad experiences in the past or it's just more of like, The.

Speaker A: I think it's just, like, systematically set up.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: To placate a leadership's want for an easy fix to a problem. That's not easy. I. I always thought, like, once I. If I ever go broke, I'll just become an LD LND consultant. Um, um. But at the same time, it. It's like, yeah, structurally, you don't have the facilitators, the relationships to drive these behaviors into habits. So I was very skeptical of basically anybody coming in. Coming in from the outside. I just didn't know if it was possible. Um, but I saw in Life Labs, they've got a real strong point of view on the behaviors. I recognize that they have. I trusted their research on. These are the generic behaviors that'll help us no matter what the problem is. Because we don't know what the problem is half the time.

Speaker B: Right. Right.

Speaker A: Problem is evolving all the time. So I knew that this is, like, a safe bet that this would be, like, fundamentally evergreen skills. And I also spent a lot of time at One Acre Fund coming off the experience of building facilitators.

Speaker B: Interesting.

Speaker A: And I knew how hard that is. I mean, I have this teaching experience, and I found out how hard it is to be a good facilitator. The fact that I got exposed to some of these facilitators. The Obama foundation, we've been lucky enough to have, like, two facilitators that have gone through tens and tens of workshops. Brittany and Darius are just, like, amazing facilitators. And I think they've been able to, like, build a relationship. They have an emotional connection. It's almost like they are a part of the team. M. Except I didn't have to train them. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so we have, like, great behaviors. We've got trainings that are in their 34th, 35th iteration. Um, solid feedback loops. So, uh, I just kind of started seeing all those things at Life Labs, and I was like, that'll work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I just knew that that would work because I just look for, like, the structure of it and through the competitive process of figuring out who to give the contract to. Like, Life Labs just won that process. They matched kind of the mindset that I had just came to understand to be effective over time.

Speaker B: Interesting. I appreciate that context, and I think it'd be interesting for listeners to hear about, like, you came into the Obama Foundation. You've got this L and D experience. You have an expectation and some thoughts about, like, how you're going to build this out. How did you kind of go about, like, who Are you going to train first and then next? I think one of the interesting things I know about our work with you is that we've trained a full range of folks, from leaders to managers to even frontline workers. So I'd love to kind of hear about, like, how did you think about that as you were building out the programming?

Speaker A: My experience at, uh, One Acre Fund, I learned so much about, like, what. How to be an L and D person. And so my time at the Obama Foundation, I was like, okay, now I'm gonna, like, do it right from day one. And so it's kind of two big ideas. One, I knew that, like, from the training standpoint, managers are your highest roi. Right? They're gonna be the ones that make the difference, no matter what. No matter what. Um, and if I'm going to intervene, I'm going to improve anybody. It's. It's the manager that is going to be the highest return on my time. And secondly, I knew that they. They have to be in a system that is, like, helping them. So I actually spent a lot of my time when I first got there. No training.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: To. To every. To my leaderships. Like, I don't know if they were like, okay with that, but I was like, okay, I need to think about incentives for learning. So I spent a lot of time on the performance review, making sure that it's happening, making sure that the incentives are lined up. Tied it to, like, bonuses. Like, probably the important change that I made to the performance review was we do 50. 50. So 50 is what you accomplish and 50 is how. And I made sure that, like, for managers, the how is management interesting behaviors of management. So that, uh, frankly. So in theory, let's see if everybody executes correctly. But in theory, 50% of their performance review is how they're doing as a manager based off of behaviors defined in a model. And then for everyone, a third of the how is embracing improvement. So I tried to create ways that, like, created incentives and motivations for people to actually learn. Did not want to just, like, fall into the fallacy of it's a, uh, supply problem.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Which I think a lot of. I don't know if people actually believe that, but that's how they act. They act like, oh, if we just

Speaker B: had try and solve for it.

Speaker A: Yeah, we just need to offer more workshops. We need to look for more tools and battle magic. I recognize that, like, the tools are out there.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You don't actually.

Speaker B: I think we've seen a lot of that with, like, e learning Too where it's like, well, it's more of a check the box motion is how we think of it. Like, well, you just put it out there and then if you. They need it, they're going to go use it. And it's like, is that how I've ever learned anything in my life? Literally? No.

Speaker A: Like if they don't do it, it's kind of on them.

Speaker B: Yes, Right, right, right. Less accountability for the organization trying to drive that change. I love that. So you kind of started with that performance review bucket and then moved into incentives. Like what motivates folks and would actually drive them to want to participate.

Speaker A: And then um, another big thing is just like measuring. So another big thing I did was like implement like an engagement survey. So when we did an intervention, I'd have some sort of like longer term sort of outcome to tie it to. Before I got to any sort of training, it was incentives tied to that measurement. And then Life Labs and Life Labs came in and basically provided a through line experience for every employee of like the behaviors that matter. Provided a manager. You know, we did Manager Core 1, Manager Core 2, Individual Contributor Core. So we had a, uh, manager. I'm trying to set these managers up for success by writing them, training on these behaviors and like endorsing the idea that like uh, there's many ways to do things but this is the way that we think would be most efficient for you. Right. And then also training their employees on those same behaviors so they don't have to build the buy in and the vocabulary. Once we opened the center and we started hiring a new group of employees who have less disposable or freedom in their time had to be even more concise. And there we worked with Life Labs to do a customization of essentially influential communication workshop that was sort of rooted in the behaviors and skills that would provide exceptional customer service to our uh, visitors that come to the center.

Speaker B: Right. And I know that the team shared a stat with me that you've driven over 85% attendance to the workshops. Anything to share with listeners on what that is. I think what I'm hearing is like, and I think this is a through line for you, like creating the systems where people want to engage. But that's a really strong rate that I think a lot of folks, you know, are striving.

Speaker A: Yeah. Numbers like that, it's hard to. I think it is. I think hopefully it, you know, the theory of change holds. It is the incentives. But. And I was in especially to get going. I m. Was in people's DMS if they weren't there. I was just asking, are you okay, uh, at the workshop, like just establishing an expectation and establishing an expectation and then establishing. I love that behavior because it basically tells an individual that organization cares about their development. So like, if you don't go, I'm gonna ask you, like, why?

Speaker B: Where were you?

Speaker A: Where were you? And not in a, like, you're in trouble way, but just like, all I want you to know is that it matters to us as the organization, uh, that you're investing in yourself. So make sure that you like, prioritize that.

Speaker B: Right. Like we're doing this as much for you and your growth, for the organization and to kind of move us forward.

Speaker A: A lot of DMs on Slack. I think I've.

Speaker B: I like that. Yeah.

Speaker A: DM'd every single.

Speaker B: About a workshop or two.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: They're like, he's like, hi, it's in my DMs about sending a workshop. We talked at the beginning about a behavior change that you've made recently. I'd love to hear one small behavioral shift that you'd recommend for listeners who want to build more resilient, adaptable teams and something that they could try tomorrow. Because obviously at life labs we can't stop talking about behavior change and how critical that is.

Speaker A: My suggestion is something that I try to do is like when you're in your AI prompts, kind of going back to this, like, use your life labs behaviors, let alone that it creates a better prompt and a better outcome of what you're doing. But like, also is like a great way to practice that habit. So like a lot of times with my AI prompt or a little chat, I will make sure I Q step and I will ask it to Q step me. I'll look for blur words in my prompts and try to deblure them. And then probably like, most important is like pausing before shipping something and like reflecting like, did I just create something that looks great, that feels good or is it actually worth while? And like that little check there. Go back. Yeah, most of the time you're going to go back, uh, you know, refine it. Yeah, I think that, uh, it's a cool thing because like you create better products but also you are, ah, living these behaviors that you're teaching everybody. And it's just such a great way to practice behaviors.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. That's such a great example. And I'm like, gosh, we could all do a little bit more of that in real time. And even I don't know if you've spent time with Lab, uh, Coach, AI, but with LabCoach, uh, AI and the platform, like, you can actually go in there. And it's all built on our content and the behavioral units that we teach. And I do that oftentimes I'm like, I have to give feedback. I'm going to go in and I'm going to chat it through and then figure out how to do that in a way that's within a structure. Right. Because if you just go sometimes to the alums or an open model, you're like, oh, my gosh, this might give me 20 different ways to do this, which is not helpful and more refined. Thank you so much for joining us today, Patrick. It's been so lovely to have you on the podcast. If folks want to find you, connect with you, follow up or ask questions, what is the best way for them to get in touch?

Speaker A: I mean, I'm on LinkedIn and.

Speaker B: Yeah, so are we.

Speaker A: We all are, I guess. Um, yeah. Um, but, uh, I would love to see you at the center. So, like, I think for everybody, like, go to obama.org learn more about the center and come and visit. Check it out. It's. It is an amazing, amazing experience, um, and you will not be disappointed. Bring your whole family. Go eat in the restaurants around in the neighborhood. Stay in the Airbnb and be in the neighborhood. That's my experience. Just so you can kind of, like, get the full experience, um, of the south side while you're there visiting the center.

Speaker B: Oh, I love that. And I'm going to probably take you up on that. I love Chicago and, like, it sounds like such an incredible space. So congratulations, too, on all the work that you've put in to that. Like, it's a big accomplishment. And I know. When is the grand opening?

Speaker A: June, is it?

Speaker B: Wow. Oh, nice.

Speaker A: It's coming up.

Speaker B: Wow. It's going to be here before we know it. Thank you again, Patrick. So great to have you on the leader Lab.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh,