Podcast Guru Dave Jackson

Speaker A: The following is a presentation of the Boston Podcast Network. Podcasting is a great way for professionals to tell their story. Find out how you can get started@pod617.com

Speaker B: very active. Starting a business, it takes a lot of gumption. I really want to dig in deep, figure out what makes these people tick, how they are leveraging their success to make the rest of the world a better place. You know, maybe have a couple giggles along the way.

Speaker A: From the Pod617 Studios in Westwood, Massachusetts, Massachusetts, it's the Kilroy Report, the podcast that shares the stories of entrepreneurs and agency owners doing extraordinary things in an ordinary world. Now, here's your host, Tim Kilroy.

Speaker B: All right, everybody, it's Tim. And welcome to the Kilroy Report. Today I am here with Dave Jackson, who's going to talk to us about podcasts and how ordinary people can build an extraordinary business in completely ordinary times. Leveraging podcast marketing. So, Dave, I'd like to welcome you here. So you run a company called School of Podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you are the blackjack of podcasts?

Speaker C: Kind of. I've, uh, My background's in education. I taught in the corporate world for decades, going back to the days of how to surf the Internet because people didn't know what it was. But the problem was when you work in corporate in training, they hire a bunch of people that can't sell training. So instead of firing the. The sales guys that can't sell, they downsize the training department. And so the last time that happened, I'd been podcasting already for 10 years, and I was like, I would like to get a job in podcasting. And so that kind of. Well, actually before that, I went back to school because I had to get a. My. My original degree was in electronic engineering. I needed a new degree in teaching. And so I started the school of, uh, podcasting to help me stay in books and phone and insurance and things like that. That got me back into teaching. And ah, then again, I was like, hey, I went and got the degree. I got my job. Yay. And six or seven years went by and they were like, yeah, we have to let you go. And so I ended up now the school of podcasting was my main thing. My now ex wife was like, you need to get a real job. And so I got a job at Libsyn, which is a podcast media hosting company. And so I do that now in the day, I do tech support. And then the school of podcasting is my super serious side hustle.

Speaker B: Okay, all right. So you said that you have been podcasting for 10 years, which means you would have started podcasting when they podcasted on cuneiform tablets.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's actually, I had been podcasting 10 years at that. That was almost seven years ago. I've been podcasting since 2005. So in 2005, it was not fun. It was.

Speaker B: You must have been, you know, a lone voice in the desert. I can't remember the, you know, the first podcast I listened to, but I don't think it was in 2005.

Speaker C: Yeah, 2004 is when it started, and I started in April 2005, right before Apple added podcasting to itunes. And so I was there when itunes was added. And that's the only hockey stick I've ever seen in podcasting, because all of a sudden, our numbers just went through the roof. And so. But it was painful back then, trying to run a membership site, teaching people how to podcast, because I'd be like, oh, do you listen to podcasts? And they're like, oh, I don't have an ipod. And I'm like, no, all you need is the Internet and speakers. And then once I finally got them to understand what a podcast was, when I was like, do you want to make one? They're like, no, No, I don't. So, yeah, the, uh, first couple years of the school of podcasting were a little slim.

Speaker B: You know, hard times make great businesses,

Speaker C: or so say that. Well, that's when I, uh, in addition to the school of podcasting, I'm a musician. So I was playing in a band. I was doing guitar lessons. I was editing audio because the people did sign up at the school of podcasting were like, I just want to talk into the microphone. I don't want to do this editing thing. Do you know anybody who does editing? And I'm like, yes, me. Thank you. So it was a lot of fun.

Speaker B: All right, so. So you started in the school of podcasting, you know. You know, true to the school of rock, it was a ragtag band of kids that came together and did something magical, you know, because everything's like a movie.

Speaker C: Uh, but.

Speaker B: But how are people using podcasts today? Because There are roughly 53 billion podcasts out there.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's for me, especially for businesses. You want to use it as a marketing arm. So many people think, oh, I'm going to start a podcast, and it is going to make me money. I'm going to sell ads and things like that. Or I'm going to sell a membership site. I'm going to have premium Stuff. And those are options. Those are, you know, legit options. But the best way that I found is when you use it as a marketing arm for your business. And so, uh, I'll give you an example. I don't remember the name of the podcast, but that's okay. All they wanted me to do was remember their brand. It was some health show. It was about two minutes long, and it would be like, hey, do you know that carrots are good? And then they'd have a little intro music. And the guy. I remember the guy's name was Jimmy Page, because every time he said it, I was like, from Led Zeppelin. And then he'd say something nice about carrots or whatever the health tip of the day was. And then they'd be like, hey, this podcast is brought to you by the association of Christian Athletes. And I heard that every. It was a daily show, so their goal was to keep their brand in front of me and give me a little education something. A little dinner party that I was like, I didn't know that if you eat carrots, blah, blah, blah. So there's that aspect. That's one.

Speaker B: The takeaway is, if you eat carrots, you become a better Christian and a better athlete.

Speaker C: I'm not sure on that. I just. Just remember that was. It was some health tip. It was daily. And at the end, they'd be like, this was brought to you by the association of Christian. And I. To me, I'm like, I just. I'm looking for a health tip. So there's that. Then you have the. The person that wants to position themselves as an expert, and so they'll do a solo show where I always tell people none of this hey, guys, stuff that you hear on YouTube. Hey, guys. I'm like, it's not 1920 where everyone is gathered around the smart speaker to listen to the podcast. Typically, podcasts are heard in the car or via earbuds. So you're talking to one person. And so I always say, thank you so much for tuning in. I'm so glad you're here. I talk to one person when I do that, and then it's just a matter of. It could be as simple as. I was speaking at a high school last week, and a student came up to me and asked me this question. And I thought, that's a good question for a podcast. And without even knowing it, I just put out to the world. I talked to high school kids. It wasn't this Sunday. It wasn't a massive. It was just like, oh, by the way, this is what I do. So there's that kind of thing. But you can also then, like, I talk about the podcast industry and tips to grow your audience and things like that. And if you can do it on a regular schedule, whatever that schedule is, weekly or twice a week or twice a month or whatever it is, I always try to work a little bit of myself into whatever I'm explaining. And by that I mean, I don't start off with, let me tell you what Mr. Whiskers did this week. Oh, that little rascal of a cat. No, I'm talking about, he was a

Speaker B: scamp, not a rascal.

Speaker C: That's it. But like, when Muhammad Ali died, he was a huge hero of mine. And I said, all right, here are 10 things that podcasters can learn from Muhammad Ali. You know, he was unique, he was talented, he was always promoting, et cetera. So I was revealing a little bit about myself while still talking podcasting. So when you do that, they get to know you, and then if you're delivering good content, they like you because, well, you're helping them out. So now you've got the whole, know, like, and trust factor. So when you say, oh, if you'd like to start a podcast, or if you want to read my new book or whatever it is you're, you know, you want consulting things of that nature, it really goes into play. And then the other thing that I really love about it is I have all my contact information, whether it's email, voicemail, Twitter, whatever, it's on one page, schoolofpodcasting.com contact. Because somebody right now is listening to this on a treadmill. I got to make it easy to remember instead of saying, my Twitter is this and Instagram is blah, blah, um, you know, it's like, no, here's, here's one thing to remember. And you, you get kind of this time shifted conversation going on where, like, my last episode just came out on Monday, today is Friday, and I got two emails today from people that listen to the thing that I put out on Monday. And so I reply either back via email or sometimes I'll send them a voicemail. And this is where your audience sometimes can give you ideas for products. They're like, do you know anybody that does this kind of thing or that? And you're like, hm, that's a good idea. Or they'll ask a question and that's a, a good episode or, or something that you might want to add into a product or things like that. So you get the, the benefit of interacting directly with your potential clients and customers and things of that nature. So those are, uh. And then the other thing that helps is sometimes people go, should I do a solo show or a interview show? And I always say, why not both? Because when you do an interview show, you grow your network. And so, like, today, I, uh, had somebody asked. They said, hey, do you know anybody who understands the whole pixel thing with podcast advertising? And I go, I know a little bit, but let me introduce you to Heather Osgood. So you grow your network, and so people start going, oh, you want to start a podcast? Let me introduce you to Dave. So you grow your network when you do an interview, and when you do a solo show, you grow your influence. Because now I'm just talking to that one person again. And those, uh, that networking can then lead to speaking gigs, all sorts of fun opportunities that have come up. I actually, I mentioned I work for Libsyn, and that really came about because of my podcast, because I got to know they knew me, I knew them kind of thing.

Speaker B: Right. So I think stories stick with people. So tell me a story about one of your podcasts. You know, people who learned about podcasting from you, who've turned, you know, their. Their blabbering into a microphone, into something. Something extraordinary.

Speaker C: Uh, Shane Whaley does a show called the Tourpreneur. It's all about touring businesses. So if you go to a city and you. You want to take a tour. And he started that off because he. That's what he did. And he had a background in the tour business, and it just started to take off. And as you might imagine, Imagine there's this little thing called a pandemic that happened to a little while.

Speaker B: I remember that.

Speaker C: Yes. And so what Shane did is what I always. When in doubt, ask your audience. And so he's like, well, our industry just went up in flames, so what would you guys like to talk about? And so they talked about different marketing. It was a little bit of, like, when this thing goes away, this is what I want to try. Or this is what was working for me before this happened. And then part of it was, this is how I'm coping. Like, I got a side gig as a bartender to hold me over until this, you know, which bartending really wasn't working either, because nobody was allowed to go to bars, but you get the idea where.

Speaker B: But. But you could do a lot of day drinking.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker B: No, I mean, that's. You got that going for you, so.

Speaker C: And I know he's. You know, it's now it's back up and going. But he's had a few different job offers because he has such influence in that space. It's. It's one of those things where a lot of times people compare podcasting to radio, and I get that it's audio and that whole nine yards. I think it's much more like cable tv, because if you think about Animal Planet, the Weather Channel, you know, they're all these super specific, and it seems like every day there's more of them, these different channels that don't have huge audiences. But I know I have a friend of mine that absolutely adores the Weather Channel, and I'm like, really? Oh, he's just. He's a. He's a weather nerd. And I'm like, okay. And that's the one place he gets it. So when you kind of niche down your audience, you end up with a potentially smaller one. But the people that are listening are like, oh, she's talking to me. I can't believe that. Or he's talking to me.

Speaker B: So they're your. Your tribe.

Speaker C: Right, Exactly.

Speaker B: So what's a great way to leverage a podcast to, you know, increase the, you know, the number or quality of discussions you have with potential clients?

Speaker C: You have to. And this is. That's a great question because it leads to really, one of the key ingredients of a good podcast, and that is knowing who. Who am I trying to connect. And so if I'm, uh, an accountant, let's say, and I start sharing accounting tips, I'm going to attract more accountants who want to be better. So I'm bettering my competition, but I'm trying to get businesses who need an accountant. Well, that's a whole different topic. So now I might want to talk about tips and tricks on how to, you know, run your business better and tools and such. To attract that person, you have to kind of know who is it I'm trying to attract, and what would they listen to. And then you turn yourself into your own sponsor. So that's. That's a, uh, an easy way to kind of do that. And then another fun thing is whatever industry you're. You're kind of representing or wherever you're at, interview people that should be your clients. I've seen a lot of people do this because they're like, hey, today we're talking about our industry. We brought so and so on. We want to talk about their story. And you basically just use it as a big icebreaker. Obviously, you still have people listening, so you want to do a uh, decent interview and get some insights and, you know, stories like you said earlier. And then when the interview's over, you're like, oh, that's great, by the way, you know, so thanks so much for coming on the show. So you can go in and contact that person and you know, do an ever so slight pitch.

Speaker B: So asking the audience that you want to work with to be guests. That's cool, but how do you get, how do you sort of break through that barrier? Because I, you know, in the, in our pre show discovery, I read somewhere that you've had 1.9 million listens or downloads or whatever the relevant metric is.

Speaker C: It's, it's 3.1, but who's counting? Yeah, it's in the spreadsheet.

Speaker B: It says 1.9. Uh, 3.1.

Speaker C: Okay, I need to update my bio.

Speaker B: Yes. So that means you have, you know, at least 3,050,000 more than I do.

Speaker C: So how did I do that?

Speaker B: You've also, you've also been at it, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Many moons a, uh, few months longer than I have been. But, but let's, let's talk about, you know, how do I get the right people to listen to this? So like, having content is good and having good content is great, but how do you get people to listen it?

Speaker C: Again, kind of comes back to, uh, I always say it boils down to figuring out who your audience is. You have to. And I mean crystal clear, who's my audience? Then I go, I go, I'm in a lot of Facebook groups back in the day. I was in a lot of clubhouse, I was in a lot of Twitter spaces. Not to try and get up and talk. I was there to listen and find out what people are talking about. I do a, uh, show every Saturday and I spend an hour and a half before I go on going through Facebook groups to see what people are asking. And what's interesting is nine times out of ten it's the same six questions. How do I grow my audience? What's the best microphone? Who should I host with? How do I make money at this thing? I mean, those are given things. So, but when you know, uh, and then other things you can do is you can go to Amazon and type in your subject, whatever your podcast is about, and look for two star and four star reviews. Now why two and four? Because one will just say this book was horrible. Five will say this was the best book. Four and two will give you. I would have given you a one, but you talked about this. And four, I would have given You a five, but you didn't do this, so you get more of that. YouTube is another place you can go and just search for your topic. Because people are not shy on YouTube of telling you why you're good or why you're. Absolutely, absolutely, you're bad. So that will work. And then I was just at Podcast Movement in Dallas, and if I was lucky enough to have somebody come up and go, oh, you're Dave Jackson. I listen to your show. I would say, thank you so much. And I would say, why do you like it? And they're like, oh, it's. It's. I always learn something, and you're kind of funny. And then you have to get used to awkward silences. I like, great. What do you wish I wouldn't do in the future? Or how can I make it better? And they'd go, oh, it's great. It's fine. And I would just sit there until either a. It just got really long. And I'd be like, well, if you come up with something, you know my email, right. So I'm always looking to improve. And if you think about it, authors have rough copies, actors have dress rehearsals, musicians have, you know, rehearsals, athletes have preseason. And I think sometimes podcasters record the first thing they want and then put it out. And I'm like, I always tell people when you, Especially when you're first starting out, record like three or four episodes and probably just delete them or. And this is where, I mean, Ron Howard, the famous director, actor, you know, the guy's got, yeah, Opie, yeah. Of, uh, Richie Cunningham, he still has puts. Any movie that's going to go to the public, he has an audience and he watches in the back with them to see is this connecting with the audience the way I thought it would. And I think most podcasters, when they ask, hey, I need some feedback, what they're really saying is, hey, I want you to agree with everything I've done to this point. They don't really want feedback. And then. And then they find themselves in a situation. There's a movie came out, I want to say, in the 90s. It was the Lone Ranger with Johnny Depp at the height of his Johnny Depp. And I think right now, he's at

Speaker B: the height of his Johnny Depp. That's true.

Speaker C: And Disney poured money more. I mean, they had the Happy Meal, they had everything ready to go. And when it didn't do that good the first weekend, they just dumped more money on it. And the problem was, I saw that movie when I came out. I didn't tell any of my friends, you need to go see this movie. But when I saw the Sixth Sense, which was like half the budget of that movie, I came out. And not only did I tell a friend that they need to see it, I went and saw it with him again. So it's. The other thing is, uh, I had a guy on my show, he does a, uh, podcast called the Darknet Diaries. And it's kind of like NPR meets hackers. So you have these well crafted stories and a little bit of audio production. And so they're really good stories, but it's about hacking. And I asked him once, I said, how did you grow your audience? Because he's getting like 300,000 downloads an episode. And I was like, holy cow. And he said, now this is gonna sound simple. He's like, but I ask my audience. And he goes, and I don't just ask my audience. I slowly, specifically and confidently say, hey, if you like this episode, could you share it with a friend? And then I had another guy that was doing a Daily show and got up to like a million downloads in a year. And I was like, okay, I know it's a daily show, but man, a million downloads. And I go, what's your secret? He goes, well, I asked my audience, do you know anybody that could benefit from listening to today's episode? And if you would, would you share it? And then I started kind of keeping my, um, open for that. And people do ask, but the problem is, especially depending on your own. I guess up when we start to promote ourselves, we get really nervous and icky and so, yeah, so it comes out, the rejection. Yeah. So you're like, hey, you know, if you kind of want to, like, maybe, like, you don't have to. I mean, you could. But like, if, if there was like, somebody, like, you know, if you want to, like, uh, you don't have to, but if you want to share, you can. My website is calm. And I'm like, wait, what was that? And so they, they are, oh, I am sharing it. I'm like, yeah, but you need to work on that pitch a little bit. And I asked somebody, I said like, what's the deal with that? And she's like, well, I kind of feel like I'm selling. And I go, I go, let me guess. You have the kind of mindset that of like an old 1970s used car salesman, he's trying to sell you a bucket of bolts. And she's like, yeah, kinda, you know. And I go, oh, so you're saying your podcast is a bucket of bolts. And she said, no, not at all. I worked really hard on this thing. And I go, and you've had people listen to it, you know, that aren't your mom, and said it was good. Oh, yeah. I'm like, okay, so then you're not really selling a bucket of bolts. You're helping somebody by telling them to share it with a friend. And she's like, well, yeah. And I go, okay, so don't. Don't be worried about. You're not selling, you're helping. Think of it that way. And so it's. Again, a lot of times at, uh, least with podcasting, what I'm battling is not the technology and the websites and the media hosts. It's the, uh, psychology.

Speaker B: Well, totally, totally. When I'm working with agency owners and they don't want to ask for the business or they feel like they don't, you know, nobody wants to be sold. And it's the. It's true. But sales is a service. So, you know, if you were able to effectively position what you do as real and true, meaningful benefit to the person on the other side, you're not selling, you're helping.

Speaker C: Yeah. And then you can do things like, I have a. There's no paperwork involved, but I have more or less a network with two of my friends that are basically my competition. They do podcasts about podcasting. And this is where a lot of times we bring in the baggage of radio. And it's not radio because we're not all on at 7:30 in the morning. You can listen to me on Monday, you can listen to Daniel on Tuesday, and you can listen to Ray on Wednesday. And what we would do, and originally we just did this organically, but I'd be like, oh, I was listening to Daniel. He was doing a show about such and such. And Ray would say, like, so we just started cross promoting each other. And because they had exactly what I wanted was listeners who wanted to hear about podcasting. And so it's just kind of. We ended up starting a show together. But that's another one where people think, you know, the, the old Howard stern of the 80s would try to crush his competition on the radio. And now it's like, no, actually, you want to network with these people. And number one, these are now some of my best friends because I can completely nerd out about podcasting with these guys.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But also, I had one guy once, he's in Oklahoma, and he had a client that needed to do some stuff at The Rock and Roll hall of Fame. Well, I live near Cleveland, Ohio. And he said, hey, can I hire you to, you know, drag some microphones up and record these people? They're doing this special thing. And I go, yeah. He goes, okay, I'm going to pay you for it. I'm like, okay, but like, what's your cut? Because he sent me the business. He's like, ah, it's just, you know, he's like, I just appreciate you taking care of my customer. And I was like, okay. So again, networking kind of comes in handy as well.

Speaker B: And since you're from Cleveland, you must have been a big fan of who I might remember it now. Wmmx.

Speaker C: Wmms. There's actually a. Yeah, yeah, there's a, uh, podcast out now. Six part series that a guy did on how it was kind of built up and it started off and, you know, it's just some of the crazy things they did. There's an example though. How do I grow my podcast? WMMS went to a promoter and said, we want to put WMMS on every ticket that you sell and can you give us access to the acts that are coming to town? We'll promote your concert and you can promote our radio station. So they saw themselves not as competition, but here's somebody that kind of shares our vision. And, uh, I've done that a few times with like, equipment, uh, people, they'll sponsor my show, but then they'll, they'll kind of cross. Oh, if you're looking to start a podcast, you need to go talk to Dave at the School of Podcasting. So if, if you have somebody that's not your direct competition, but works in your industry, but see if they can help. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, partnerships are a key way that I advise my clients to grow their agencies because as an agency, you can't do everything right. So stuff that you don't do, but who. Those people that serve the same customer that you might, those are great, fantastic partners to have.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I do want to be mindful of Alexa since she's telling you to stop work.

Speaker C: No, I'm.

Speaker B: That's.

Speaker C: That was for my day job.

Speaker B: So I want to make sure I get through all these questions. So tell me why I'm not going to be able to turn my podcast into a giant media organization where I'm getting, where I'm getting, you know, $50,000 an episode sponsorships. Because I for one would love to get $50,000 for just shooting the shit.

Speaker C: Well, there are a couple reasons. Number One, most people want to do that in about eight weeks. I want to quit my day job in eight weeks. And I'm like, yeah, that's not happening. Unless you. And I even see people with these huge. Like, they'll have 50,000 followers on Instagram, and then they start a podcast and they get a third of that, and they're like, well, that can't be right. I'm like, no, that's the YouTube and podcasting. There are two separate audiences. So part of it is you come in with unrealistic expectations. Number two, that whole. Like, you didn't get any feedback. Amy Schumer got paid millions of dollars to do a horrible podcast. She now, at the time, I'll give her, you know, a pass. Cause she was, like, six months pregnant, seven months pregnant. But she recorded a podcast called. I think it was Three Girls and a Keith, if I remember right. And she recorded in, like, a back porch that was nothing but glass, so it sounded like she was in a fishbowl. And probably because she was pregnant and it was a really, really hard pregnancy, she basically turned on the microphones with her and her friends and just chatted. And people will give you a listen because, well, you're famous. But a. The sound quality was beyond horrible. And, uh, in some cases, you think you're funny because. Tim, remember that time with the Orange Gatorade? Orange Gatorade.

Speaker B: I do, I do. That was really funny.

Speaker C: And the audience.

Speaker B: Hilarious.

Speaker C: Yeah. And the audience is going, I have no idea what they're talking about. So there is that time where, like, oh, we're funny. We laugh all the time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Because you grew up with each other and you know about the Orange Gatorade story and things like that. So again, unrealistic expectations. Um, so that's part of it. And then for me, the equation of downloads is the total value that you deliver in an episode multiplied by the amount of time or amount of effort you take to promote it. Because you can have no value, because it's just, you know, three dudes in the basement that have been drinking for eight hours. But you can, you know, promote that all over. You can buy Facebook ads and all sorts of stuff, but everybody's going to listen to that. All you're going to do is let the world know that, wow, that's really unorganized and sounds horrible and whatever. Also, though, uh, you can have the world's best podcast. And if you don't promote it, because, you know, if you build it, they will come. Well, that's not true.

Speaker B: Word of mouth, works in Iowa cornfields.

Speaker C: That's it. And so, uh, it will grow, but it's going to be much slower. So you kind of have to have both. And then I don't know where this would fit in the equation. There's a thing called luck sometimes. I had a friend of mine.

Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker C: I know that's sacrilegious, but I had a friend of mine that had started a podcast about the TV show Lost, and he'd been doing it about a month. And then, uh, cbs, I think, was the network for that, started an official Lost podcast. Well, he had a month head start, had a little more, like, just a smidge more SEO going on. And so when people search for the CBS Lost podcast, they found his and just got boatloads of downloads. So that was Luck. Now he had the talent to keep them. That's the other key, you know, because otherwise, you know, everyone remembers, you know, the winner of season six of American Idol. It was. It was. Yeah, exactly. That guy. And he's saying, yeah. So, you know, it's. It's great to get shot, but you have to shot up to the top, but you've got to. You got to be able to hold their attention. So that's part of it. It's. It is one of those things where I read a book by Valerie Geller called Beyond Powerful Radio, and she said it takes about three years to build an audience. And it's interesting because when I was interviewing people for a book I wrote about podcast monetization, I was like, when did it really start? When did you start having more than, like, you know, Mountain Dew money roll in? And the common answer was three years. And so when somebody comes in and they're like, well, I've been doing this for, you know, eight weeks. And, like, I'm not on, you know, Jimmy Fallon yet. And I'm like, well, keep going about another, uh, two and a half years.

Speaker B: So you've been podcasting since 2005. You must have, like, grape upon money.

Speaker C: No. And that's, uh. Now, the reason for that is now, if my day job went away, I'd be okay. But every business coach I've ever had has said, dave, you have an impressive resume. You have a decent reputation in the space. Would you please raise your prices? And that's where my downfall is. My background's in teaching, so I kind of get paid mentally when I help people. But I did just raise my prices. But that's part of it. And then the other thing is I made some really Dumb mistakes at the beginning where I used to edit people's podcasts. And then as that started to take off, instead of hiring somebody to take that over, I just had a friend of mine, I'm like, oh, you're doing editing too? Here, have some free clients. And got absolutely nothing for it. I was just being a nice guy. And looking back, I'm like, if I had actually put together my own team, that would have been another stream of income. So that was. That's one that I was like, yeah, that was kind of dumb. Yeah, you live and learn. You know it. And the other thing is, I do a podcast about podcasting. You know, if I was doing, you

Speaker B: know, you're talking about nerdy stuff to broke people.

Speaker C: Yes. In a way, I want to be

Speaker B: rich in eight weeks.

Speaker C: Yes, exactly.

Speaker B: And it shouldn't be cost more than $47.

Speaker C: Oh, $47. Yeah. I have people. Yeah, 497. Exactly. Because I've had people. I'm like, well, if you want to get a media host, you know, Libsyn starts at $5 a month. And they're like, oh, man, five bucks. And I'm like, okay, just give up one Starbucks. And that's, you know, sacrilege. So. But it's. It's a tricky game. And it's. That's why we say if you. If you're getting into podcasting, to make money quickly, like, just go buy a lottery ticket. Because it's. It's about the same. And it's, you know, and I always say, you know, record a few, so you know exactly how much time it's going to take. Because then I have had not a lot, but I've had a fair number of people like, oh, I'm going to do a daily podcast. Great. How long is it? 20 minutes. And I'm like, okay, we'll see. Because that's the best I've ever achieved. The best. Not like this is what I do every week. The best I've ever achieved is a 4 to 1 ratio, which means that 15 minute podcast takes an hour. And they're like, oh, that, uh, you don't just talk into a microphone for 15 minutes. I'm like, nope. Because I had to do a little research about what I was going to say, then I recorded it. And because I'm not perfect, that probably did a little bit of editing. And then for Google to find it, I have to type up a little blog post. Because that's really all a podcast is. It's a blog post with a player on it with some syndication behind it. And, and, uh, I'm done. And all of a sudden you look up and you're like, wow, that, that, you know, 15 minute podcast just took me an hour. So that's, I think, one of the things, I think that most people think, oh, I'll do a 20 minute podcast. It takes me 20 minutes. And I'm like, not always. No, but rarely. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, if, if it were easy, everybody would do it.

Speaker C: That's it. And the other thing is the, the people that are really good at it make it look entirely easy. I saw, I played the guitar, and there was a guy in the 80s, his name was Jeff Healey, and he was blind and. And he played the guitar sitting on his lap. So instead of, you know, strumming across it, it was sitting flat on his lap. And, and he. And it made it. It was so cool because he could play with his thumb. And I sat there, like, in the front row and watched him do that. And I came home and went to do it, and I was like, wait, how? Then it just sounded like I was strangling a cat. And so the people that do it, well, make it look super easy. And that's, that's the case with, you know, any kind of author, athlete, you know, actor, whoever. Yeah.

Speaker B: I must say, like, uh, the, the smart list guys, Jason Bateman and, uh, you know, like, they're three idiots. But their podcast is awesome.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, because they, first of all, they embrace their idiocy. And, you know, I think that they also really, really make it look easy because they're so polished at being idiots, you know, and. Right. You know, and, and you can't, you can't accidentally be a polished idiot.

Speaker C: Well, and there's, there's chemistry there as well. And that, that's either there or it's not. And I know all those actors and they're all. If you see them in interviews, they're very witty and, and things like that. So it's one of those where I'm sure behind the scenes, there was a talk. Okay, we're going to turn on the microphone today. Here's today's topics and how they get there is up to them, but it's. It. It often might sound like they're winging it, and trust me, nobody, they're not. Yeah, they're not.

Speaker B: All right, so, so, so let's. Let's wrap this up with a bang. So if I wanted to start a podcast, so imagine I'm. I'm, uh, an agency owner and I Want to start a podcast, because I would like to talk to more e commerce brands. So I'm going to, like, get those people on as a guest and, you know, I'm going to use a decent microphone and use Libsyn for hosting and all that sort of stuff. And just like you advise, you know, what are the three things, the three mistakes that, you know, I'm going to make that you're going to tell me how to stop right now.

Speaker C: Okay, number one, you have to get somebody not named mom and not your buddy Harold and Susan that you grew up with to listen to your podcast and give you this. Here's what you did right? This was really good. But you need somebody to say, yeah, you kind of lost me about the 24 minute mark. And you're like, really? And you're like. Because it's a three hour podcast. And it's like, yeah, like Joe Rogan does a three hour podcast. Yeah, Joe Rogan is Joe Rogan. You're not Joe Rogan. That would be another thing. Number one, realize you're not Joe Rogan, but get some honest feedback. Number two, I would say it's not the tech. I see a lot of people that really obsess over the technology.

Speaker B: It's become a fetish.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I always say if you take the time that you spent, you know, watching 27 YouTube videos on how to pick a microphone, you know, and instead invested that in finding out what your audience really wanted, that would be one. And then let me think something a common mistake that people make. Oh, it's all you. You have to think with your rifle, not your shotgun. And what I mean by this, I get these every morning. Hey, I found your podcast. So, number one, not even my name, not that I'm an egomaniac, but like, I say it in every episode. Hey, I'm Dave Jackson, and if you go to my website on the about page, it says Dave Jackson. So when I get an email that says, hey, I found your show. Well, number one, I have about four. Which one? And I really loved it. Generic praise for something that you won't even mention. So it's a form letter. So that's. So that's somebody that is using the shotgun and they're just going to like, hey, I'd love to be a guest on your show. Whereas if you said, hey, Dave, I was listening to episode 43 and really love the way that you talked about this. I actually work in the same space. Have you ever thought of approaching it like this? And are you looking for New guests. Boom. Because, uh, the minute I hear that you actually took the time to listen to my show, you stand out so far from everybody else because it's just shotgun, shotgun, shotgun. So that would be, I think, my other thing that I see a lot of people do that because we're busy, we all are busy, and we're just going to send it out there and see what happens. Where I would advise, again, when you look at a guest or if you're looking to be a guest on a podcast, look at that person as a partner, uh, who somebody want to partner with. I want to. I want to amplify their message and I want to, you know, this is something. You're going to be a guest, but in the future, I'm going to kind of touch base with you and just say, how's everything going at your E Commerce business or whatever, just to, again, keep your. Keep that connection going.

Speaker B: Right. And, you know, there are some people that, that do this amazingly well. So a couple of weeks ago, I was on, uh, the Legal Creative podcast. Sharon runs it. She's awesome, she's super smart. And something that we talked about triggered something. So she was reading this book. It's called, um, Killing Marketing by Joe Pallocki and Robert Rose. And I was just so touched. I got it via FedEx this morning and saying like, hey, I was reading this and I thought about our conversation and you should read this too. And so all of a sudden, now I. I love Sharon more than I did before. Yeah. And that's, uh, uh, that's exciting.

Speaker C: That's something I've done going back to the days when I was a paper boy. And that is. I found that really great at the time. Customer service is not like writing your customer's name in the sky. It's the one little thing. So the guy that had the paper out before me just throw the paper on the porch. If it was raining, I would go up the porch and put it in the door to keep it dry. So it took me an extra two steps. But, uh, when he, you know, later, I was getting like three times as many tips as that guy did, you know. Now, granted, he might have got done with the route a little sooner that day, but, you know, I took care of my customers. And when I was a customer service rep for a company, I would ask people, like, when's a good time to call you back? Like, you want to touch base in like, six weeks? And they're like, sure. What about, like, I don't know, like, Wednesday, somewhere around 10ish. And I would call them back in six weeks on Wednesday around 10ish. And they were amazed that I called them back. And I'm like, wait, but I'm, I'm just doing what I said I was going to do.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: So it's not usually these giant things that get the big, like, holy cow. It's just doing what you said you're going to do, being reliable. And in her case, like a book's what, 10 bucks, 4 bucks for shipping? And now, you know, she's quadrupled her. You know, that's going to stick in your head.

Speaker B: Totally. And there was a handwritten note with it and everything. Like, you know, like, like, I mean, incursive even.

Speaker C: There you go.

Speaker B: Which, and by the way, for our younger listeners. So a paper route, uh, route is when somebody used to deliver the Internet to your front door, they would bring Google News to you printed on dead trees. And cursive is this funny way of scratching on paper. And other people know what it means.

Speaker C: That's it. Yeah, that's how if we want to pass notes that our children won't understand, we just now write in cursive. It's like a secret ancient language that you expect to see on cave walls, you know?

Speaker B: Right? It's like Sanskrit.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's it.

Speaker B: Uh, all right, so, Dave Jackson, it has been a delight to have you here, everybody. If you're thinking about starting a podcast school of podcast is, is the place to go. And Dave Jackson is the Jack Black of podcasting. He will, he will play guitar, he will make really, really funny videos, dancing, uh, near his pool with goggles on, you know, all that sort of stuff.

Speaker C: That's it.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, which, which makes it, which makes it all the better. And, and if there is one type of person that you thought that should be starting a podcast that hasn't yet, who would it be?

Speaker C: That's a great question. The people that typically make a podcast. Because other people show up, they'll pay me and then do nothing. Which feels weird to me, but I'm finding more and more it is the boomer with a empty nest. Like all the kids, they're gone or either off to college or whatever. No grandkids yet. And they're kind of like, hm, I have experience, I want to start a side gig because I'm going to retire soon and I have something to say. Those are the people right now that I keep getting that type of person in the school of podcasting. So I love the 30 year old marketer solopreneur. Kind of person. I love that person all day. But I am seeing more and more of older people that are like, look, you keep saying it's not that hard to start a podcast. And I'm like, hey, do you, um, have you ever attached a file to an email? And they're like, yep. Well, then you can upload a media file to your media host. I'm like, have you ever seen Microsoft, um, Word? Yeah, I've used that. Okay, well, WordPress doesn't look a whole lot different. I said, have you ever been to the car and your jam comes on? So you turn up the radio and they're like, yeah. And I'm like, and then the phone rings, and, uh, you're going to answer the phone. Whether you should or not is a whole other podcast. But what do you do? Well, you turn down the volume so you can hear the phone. I go, ah, you know how to mix audio. So you have a lot of the skills already, I think, a lot of times, because it's new, we want to paint it as this really, really hard thing. And it's really, you know, growing your audience is not easy. It takes time and dedication. But the actual creating of a podcast is really not that hard.

Speaker B: All right, well, it's Friday afternoon. I know, uh, that, you know, you shouldn't necessarily, like, you know, timestamp this, but it is Friday afternoon. Earlier, Alexa told you you needed to stop working, so you probably need to start stop working, because otherwise Jeff Bezos is going to come to your door and, like, knock. Like, uh. But it's been a delight having you here and, uh, to show you that I have learned something here. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would really appreciate it if you would share it with somebody that you think would enjoy it as well. Thanks very much. We'll see you the next time on the Kilroy Report. Hey, it's Tim. Thanks for tuning in to the Kilroy Report. Your support means a lot. If you liked this episode, hated this episode, whatever. Please leave your feedback at Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you do that sort of thing. And if you're one of the brilliant people who love this, think about subscribing. It'll do you good.