911 Saif Khawaja: Co-Founder & CEO of Seremoni and Shinkei Systems

Speaker A: I, um, am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be.

Speaker B: You just want to make sure you will get knocked down, but just make sure you don't get knocked out. Knocked out.

Speaker C: So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control, control, control.

Speaker D: Hi everyone and welcome to the Kara Golden Show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world's greatest leaders. We'll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can't wait to get started. Let's go. Let's go. Hi everyone and, uh, welcome back to the Kara Golden Show. What if better technology could make seafood fresher, more sustainable and better for fishermen as well? So today's guest is Safe Kawaja, co founder and CEO of an incredible brand called Ceremony. And he it is a premium seafood brand powered by another company that he started called Shinkai Technology or sinkhe Systems. And Safe started the company at the young age of 22 after seeing firsthand how much value and quality can be lost between the ocean and our plates. I cannot wait to get into the backstory on all of that and I look forward to getting into also all of the robots, the how he scaled the company and in some of the finest Michelin starred restaurants, disrupting a legacy industry and what it takes to build a company today in the real world, in this space. So Safe, so nice to meet you and welcome. I'm so excited to hear a lot, lot more about this company. And you had sent over some of the incredible, incredible fish from Ceremony and I, as I mentioned, the sockeye is, uh, probably my favorite, but there's, um, so many in the selection, so that is so, so good.

Speaker E: Yeah, I'm so glad to hear.

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. So for someone who is just hearing about Ceremony, can you describe what is the brand and, uh, and what are you. What problem were you trying to solve?

Speaker E: Yeah, first of all, again, thank you, Kara, for having me. I'm really excited to share our story today. Ceremony is a new standard and philosophy for the very best fish. And so the idea behind the company is that we use, uh, technology across the supply chain from how the fish are pulled out the water all the way down to how they're broken down, mimicking the Japanese, uh, artisanal handling processes to produce fish that last longer and taste better. So all in all, technology that is scaling Japanese artisanal handling. So we call all our fish Ceremony grade and it's the idea that, you know, every single fish has gone through a process meticulously planned from, you know, like I mentioned, how the fish are pulled out, how they're, um, humanely handled on the deck of the boat, how they're kept cold, how they're bled all the way down to how they're packaged and processed. By doing that, you can produce fish that last longer, taste better, obviously have a more humanely happy to get into, you know, I'm sure we'll jump into any of those parts, uh, as we dive deeper.

Speaker D: This episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Zenni Optical. Hi Kara here. You know those things that sit on your to do list forever? For me, new glasses were one of them. I wanted something stylish, comfortable and affordable without spending hours shopping. That's why I love Zenni. I ordered these classic navy blue square frames and I love them. They're polished, versatile and exactly my style. And with frames starting under $30, Zenni makes it easy to find something you love. They offer stylish prescription glasses, customizable lens options and virtual try ons so you can see how frames look before ordering. It's eyewear for everyone and a great way to express yourself. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to Zenni.com podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off plus free shipping over $65. Styles sell out, so don't wait. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code PODCAST15Zenni.com Podcast and use code PODCAST15 this episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Chime. Managing your money shouldn't be the easy part, right? Yet somehow traditional banking has a way of making it complicated. Hidden fees, unnecessary rules and surprises you never signed up for. Who has time for that? That's what I like about Chime. They've built a more modern banking experience around making everyday money management simpler, helping people keep more of their money, and giving them tools that make it easier to stay on top of their finances. CHIME offers the most rewarding fee free banking with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees and no minimum balance fees. What I really like is that you get 5% cash back on your Chime card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries, while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.comkaragolden that is chime.comkaragoldEN Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes.

Speaker F: Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and CHIME card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

Speaker D: I read that you worked as a commercial fishing deckhand. And what did that role, being on the boat teach you that you could never have learned sitting behind a desk or doing research?

Speaker E: Yeah, the funny, funny one is you should never bring a banana on a boat. Which is old, old sailor wisdom. Um, and, you know, I just. But, um, the idea back, back when was that, you know, bananas would carry fruit flies and, you know, uh, a much higher rate, and that would basically rot all your food if you put bananas there because the flies would spread. But, you know, and more practically, seafood and fishing is a very, very difficult industry, right? And it's been one of the oldest ones. You know, we've been spearing fish, you know, millennia ago. There are reasons why it is lagging behind most animal agriculture, which in turn is, you know, behind, you know, software and, you know, kind of more industrial robotics. So these are very dangerous drops. You know, vessels are going out there, they have no idea if they're going to catch some fish. If they do catch fish, you know, you know, if they hit very extreme weather, sometimes they get worried about even making it back. And, you know, the way that fishermen now catch their fish because inflating gas prices, deflating fish prices makes it a very difficult industry to even make ends meet. So all that means that they have less labor on the boat, they have less capacity. You know, they have to cut corners. And so when I, with my short time as a deckhand, I left with this impression of, you know, yes, there are a lot of opportunities and it's a massive industry. But also, you know, fishermen don't have the time and space to do a lot of, you know, nice to have things that, you know, most people external to the industry would ask them to. So any innovation that, you know, I want to work on would have to be both pragmatic and economical.

Speaker D: So. Interesting. So what made you actually take on this role? Did you know you were going to go into the seafood industry? I mean, what. Was there any background? Did you know people in the industry? I mean, how did you land there?

Speaker E: So I grew up fishing with my dad, you know, as a hobbyist fisherman. I have matching save tattoos with my granddad, you know, this all kind of more fun for a full background, you know. Um, but the truth is, you know, when I moved to the U.S. when I was 18, I came attempting to, you know, make it in more traditional consulting, banking, or, you know, get my PhD in robotics, and, you know, something a little more straightforward. Um, and so, you know, went to undergrad, studied business, um, got a second degree in physics, and then went to Carnegie Mellon, you know, with the intention of, you know, staying there for a PhD track program. And, you know, one of my early mornings there, there was this essay in the newspaper called if Fish Could Screen. And it's all but how, because fish don't have vocal cords, we give them less empathy than we do to trust for animals. Because the unfortunate truth is today that most fish that are brought onto the deck of a boat, they're left to suffocate. You know, they're effectively drowning in the air. And it can take them sometimes a couple minutes to over an hour to lose consciousness. And in that time, they are releasing stress hormones, lactic acid, you know, making the meat more acidic, you know, blood fusing, all these things basically speeding decomposition. And so there is both a. Like, you know, through the essay, I discovered there was both a humane, you know, gap relative to a lot of the work that Temple Grandin did in cattle, and there was a economic gap in that this one mishandling step actually ends up making the fish less unit, economic efficient to trade because that stressful process speeds the decomposition and damages the quality. And so I was just sitting in my dorm room at the time, and I went on a Reddit and YouTube rabbit hole, and I found the techniques which that we, you know, are mimicking with our first product, um, as part of Shinke, our parent technology company. And so in Japan, you know, if you ever had omakase and they fly in the fish, you don't know the flavor. Most fish, um, are handled very differently. They have a traditional technique that is closer to a kosher slaughter or halal slaughter for cows, but for fish so centuries old. It's called ikejime. And it's where we take inspiration from. And the idea is that rather than letting the fish flop around, you pierce the fish in the brain to stop the experience of stress, stop those stress hormone production, you know, cocktails, I guess. And then you cut the gills, which, like kosher, basically the heart will push the blood out. And that, that both these two steps, the reduction of the stressful process and reduction of stress hormones and the draining of the blood basically make it harder for bacteria to grow from an environment and nutrition access standpoint. So most of the fish that are handled in Japan are done this way and they're handled by hand. And so the idea behind Shinke and um, you know, what led into the whole full ceremony grade process was could you use software and robotics to automate something close to that process to be able to generate similar benefits without having to hire, you know, many thousands of people to handle the volume and scale of the US fishery today. And, uh, here we are a couple couple years later.

Speaker D: This episode of the Cara golden show is brought to you by Zenni Optical. Hi, Kara. Here. You know those things that sit on your to do list forever? For me, new glasses were one of them. I wanted something stylish, comfortable and affordable without spending hours shopping. That's why I love Zenni. I ordered these classic navy blue square frames and I love them. They're polished, versatile and exactly my style. And with frames starting under $30, Zenni makes it easy to find something you love. They offer stylish prescription glasses, custom sizable lens options and virtual try ons so you can see how frames look before ordering. It's eyewear for everyone and a great way to express yourself. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to Zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 off plus free shipping over $65. Styles sell out, so don't wait. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code podcast15zenny.com podcast and use code podcast 15 this episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Chime. Managing your money shouldn't be the easy part, right? Yet somehow traditional banking has a way of making it complicated. Hidden fees, unnecessary, uh, rules and surprises you never signed up for. Who has time for that? That's what I like about chime. They've built a more modern banking experience around making everyday money management simpler, helping people keep more of their money and giving them tools that make it easier to stay on top of their finances. CHIME offers the most rewarding fee free banking with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees and no minimum balance fees. What I really like is that you get 5% cash back on your CHIME card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries, while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Join the millions who are already banking fee free. With America's number one choice for banking, head to Chime.com Karagolden that is Chime.com KaragoldEN Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes.

Speaker F: Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

Speaker D: So interesting. So when you started, were you actually thinking that Shinke was going to be the company that you were going to start? Uh, versus actually having to start. I mean you've, you've started two companies. So Ceremony is a fledging fish company that you're selling to Michelin star restaurants. But it sounds like you actually had this idea for Sinkay first.

Speaker E: A couple, couple of things, you know, or threads to pull on here. So the first one is I didn't intend to start the company. I actually applied in, wrote a full research paper, I submitted to a journal. I got rejected twice and I was like, okay, cool. No one really wants to talk about this. But I had this vision for what the world should look like. And I realized that if I did not build this, then the world would not change and in turn we would be stuck at status quo. And so, you know, that was kind of impetus for making a, you know, a company rather than, you know, a research project. Then the idea was, okay, cool, if we're going to try and solve this problem, like how does the value creation that we would do manifest in the world? And so the value, what we do is we extend the fish shelf life, we improve the flavor, the texture and obviously, you know, make the fish handle more humane. So those values accrue at, to the consumer or as close as you can get to the consumer. So a grocery store will care more about shelf life or a chef will care more about flavor or texture than any fisherman would. Right? For the most part. And so what we decided to do with the model was Shinkei basically builds or designs, uh, builds, manufactures these machines and then we give it to the fishermen for free. And then we basically buy and sell that fish. And then we control the story, we control the education and in turn sell to where the value is accruing, which is the retailer or the chef, not the fishermen. Right. So fishermen are generally paid a premium that's above market, which also helps soften some of the blow for a little bit of extra work. And then we get to be able to have a much larger supply than if we were running our own boats. By partnering with the incumbents,

Speaker D: you mentioned Japan before. Is that primarily where you are sourcing from and where your partnerships are?

Speaker E: So one of our bigger missions is that the parent technology company is to use software and autonomy to reshore American seafood. And so we're really focused on strengthening the domestic industry, improving. You know, there's, I'm sure you've read the stories, you can even google this. Like many fish we send internationally and bring back and freeze them, thaw multiple times just to be able to break them down so they're caught locally, they're processed internationally and then consumed locally again. So these are some of the core infrastructure problems that we see. And so we have, you know, about 25 vessels here in the US today, um, expecting to, you know, 5x that next year outfitted with our technologies. And then we have processing plants that we've either built or partner with to be able to produce uh, the fish by breaking them down. And um, we are over time going to eventually expand to other types of fisheries. And that may be internationally, may not be, but we do export a lot of our fish domestically caught to Japan. So for example, our bread and butter is black cod. That's where we do the most volume of toyosu market has not had a black cod in their non target fish auction for about the number changes from 13 to 17 years depending on who you ask. And so our fish was the first in that long of a time to be able to hit that quality standard. Um, so you're getting fish that can be auctioned off in Japan that you can now walk into Whole Foods or Erewhon or any of these great restaurants. We partner with, you know, Fresh Direct. If you're in tri state area and you want to order on your phone and basically get Michelin quality fish that you can take home from the grocery.

Speaker D: This episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Zenni Optical. Hi Kara. Here. You know those things that sit on your to do list forever? For me, new glasses were one of them. I wanted something stylish, comfortable and affordable without spending hours shopping. That's why I love Zenni. I ordered these classic navy blue square frames and I love them. They're polished, versatile and exactly my style. And with frames starting under $30, Zenni makes it easy to find something you love. They offer stylish prescription glasses, customizable lens options and virtual try ons so you can see how frames look before ordering. It's eyewear for everyone and a great way to express yourself. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off plus free shipping over $65. Styles sell out so don't wait. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code podcast15 zenni.com podcast and Use Code podcast15 this episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Chime. Managing your money shouldn't be the easy part, right? Yet somehow traditional banking has a way of making it complicated. Hidden fees, unnecessary, uh, rules and surprises you never signed up for. Who has time for that? That's what I like about chime. They've built a more modern banking experience around making everyday money management simpler, helping people keep more of their money and giving them tools that make it easier to stay on top of their finances. CHIME offers the most rewarding fee free banking with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees and no minimum balance fees. What I really like is that you get 5% cash back on your CHIME card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries, while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.comkaragolden that is chime.comkaragoldEN Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes.

Speaker F: Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

Speaker D: So interesting. So, uh, you said that ceremony grade fish can remain fresh up to three times longer than traditionally handled seafood. So why does that process have such an impact for people who may not realize kind of how long is a typical fish when you're seeing it at a market like a Whole Foods or Air one versus a, uh, product that is ceremony grade.

Speaker E: The idea here is most fish that suffocate, like I mentioned earlier, they produce those stress hormones. The stress hormones make the meat more acidic, which is a more prime environment for bacteria to grow. And so there is naturally occurring bacteria in the meat. Now then, when you consider what blood is in any animal, um, it is a stagnant water when the animal is, you know, has passed away and, and with nutrition diffused across it. And so if you think of it as a vector for growth, it's a very, very rapid support system for the bacteria to grow across the animal. Very quickly. And so the combination of a more acidic environment and the blood offering both nutrition and a vector to grow across the animal quickly means that both these things compound to speed of the decay of meat. And so standard black cod just use some numbers. You know, most people have about five to seven days with it in our process that we can have 12 days, 14 days we've cooked fish 20 days after being pulled out of the water and it still looked just as good as new. And what happens is when you don't have the animal stressing, that acidic chemical cocktail is never produced. And then when the blood is drained, any nutrition that the bacteria would have access to is significantly reduced. So both those things mean that the fish, instead of rotting, has an almost dry aging effect where it's getting better with time, not worse.

Speaker D: So fishermen have been doing things a certain way for generations and here you come along and you've, you are a young, uh, founder with some interesting technology. Uh, how did you convince them to put it on their boats?

Speaker E: Yeah, so like I mentioned, these are very dangerous jobs. It has one of the highest lethality rates in any job in the U.S. you know, I think it's in the top three or top five. So most fishermen will not give you the time of day because of that risk unless there's some economic incentive. And so that brings me back to the point that when we designed the model, it was very much in the mindset of how can we actually make fishermen lives easier rather than harder by asking them to do something that they don't really have the capacity to explain. You know, when a boat is at least a time before Starlink, when a boat was, you know, a hundred miles offshore, you know, they're not gonna be sitting there making how to recipe videos, you know, on Instagram. So you have to understand the pragmatics, you know, of the situation. And so the idea was then come to this model where we created something that was risk free for them. They get the machines for free, you know, we cover the maintenance, all those things, and then we basically guarantee them a buyer for the fish that's above market price. So there's a very direct function that if you work with Shinke, you build a ceremony and grade program, you as a fisherman will one, make more money and two, have more stable cash flow versus being stochastic. And they don't know when they're going to catch fish. They don't know who they're going to sell to unless there's some commodity dockside buyer. And so we come in as a source of stability that makes everything better. And then we in return have access to this prized resource that fishermen work so hard.

Speaker D: This episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Zenni Optical. Hi Kara. Here. You know those things that sit on your to do list forever? For me, new glasses were one of them. I wanted something stylish, comfortable and affordable without spending hours shopping. That's why I love Zenni. I ordered these classic navy blue square frames and I love them. They're polished, versatile and exactly my style. And with frames starting under $30, Zenni makes it easy to find something you love. They offer stylish prescription glasses, customizable lens options and virtual try ons so you can see how frames look before ordering. It's eyewear for everyone and a great way to express yourself. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to Zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 for 15% off plus free shipping over $65. Styles sell out, so don't wait. That's Z-E-N-N-I.com podcast promo code podcast15Zenny.com podcast and use code podcast 15 this episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Chime. Managing your money shouldn't be the easy part, right? Yet somehow traditional banking has a way of making it complicated. Hidden fees, unnecessary rules and surprises you never signed up for. Who has time for that? That's what I like about Chime. They've built a more modern banking experience around making everyday money management simpler, helping people keep more of their money and giving them tools that make it easier to stay on top of their finances. Chime offers the most rewarding fee, free banking with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees and no minimum balance fees. What I really like is that you get 5% cash back on your Chime card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries, while building credit through regular everyday spending with no credit check. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.comkaragolden that is chime.comkaragoldEN Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes.

Speaker F: Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

Speaker E: Yeah,

Speaker D: so the consumer brand ceremony is now served. At restaurants, including many of the Blue Hill at Stone Barnes, Danielle 11, Madison park, you name it. Michelin star restaurants. How did you get some of the country's most demanding chefs to try fish? I mean, you aren't a chef. Uh, you didn't come from this industry. Um, you know, maybe many of them don't actually understand the technology, have never been on a fishing boat. How did that happen?

Speaker E: Great question. Get asked this actually, you know, less than you'd expect. Um, the first of all, I think no matter who you are, you will always fall in love with someone who's passionate about what they're building. And so I think me coming in, telling a big story, obviously, at least, is the hook. Ultimately, the fish is the best business card. And so the fish is really where, when they cut into it, you can just. Even with a naked eye, as an untrained professional, you can look side by side. You know, Kara, I know you. You know, m. I'm sure you don't have your license as a fish sommelier, and you could tell that there was a difference. Right. Um, and so fishermen, like all that hard work does pay off to something that ends up being better quality. And then, you know, I took the inspiration from the Oishi founder, You know, that vertically integrated strawberry.

Speaker D: Huh.

Speaker E: Where, you know, he would just say he had appointments with chefs, um, and, you know, when he would walk into a restaurant and then somehow get an audience to the chef and then tell him. And the chef would be initially annoyed, but then once they see that the project's legit, they calm down. So I wasn't quite. I didn't have the athlete to kind of deal with an angry chef. But what I would do is I would basically put a delivery hat on. I'd bring a box of fish, I'd put our, you know, little marketing materials inside the box, and then I would just go and drop off and say, sample for chef. And I literally just went around. You know, we had rented the U Haul and went around a bunch of restaurants in New York, just start dropping stuff off. I sent a cold, uh, email to a, uh, designer who ended up working with us on the ceremony branding. And then they actually were great friends with Dan Barber, who, you know, is, you know, a big champion of what we're doing and a great partner. And I think once we had a couple of partners, it really started to snowball. There were other ways in which we got in front of chefs, too. So our model is that we don't sell to chefs directly. We sell to a distributor that has access to 50 to 100 restaurants or whatever have you. So for example, uh, Nobu Adeyama Seafood, which is based in New York, high end seafood wholesaler. They have their whole logistics trucks and they basically buy from suppliers, amalgamate everything and then the chefs trust them with their taste. I right after graduating, I called Nobu's office every single day for seven days in a row. And eventually he had to talk to me and he did. And you know, I caught him on the hook with the idea for what we had and you know, he was one of our first advisors for the company and over time it's built into him introducing us to chefs like Eric Repair or, you know, Living Madsen park team or so on.

Speaker D: This episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Zenni Optical. Hi Kara. Here. You know those things that sit on your to do list forever? For me, new glasses were one of them. I wanted something stylish, comfortable and affordable without spending hours shopping. That's why I love Zenni. I ordered these classic navy blue square frames and I love them. They're polished, versatile and exactly my style. And with frames starting under $30, Zenni makes it easy to find something you love. They offer stylish prescription glasses, customizable lens options and virtual try ons so you can see how frames look before ordering. It's eyewear for everyone and a great way to express yourself. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to Zenny.com podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off plus free shipping over $65. Styles sell out, so don't wait. That's z n n I.com podcast promo code podcast15Zenni.com podcast and use code podcast15 this episode of the Kara golden show is brought to you by Chime. Managing your money shouldn't be the easy part, right? Yet somehow traditional banking has a way of making it complicated. Hidden fees, unnecessary, um, rules and surprises you never signed up for. Who has time for that? That's what I like about Chime. They've built a more modern banking experience around making everyday money management simpler, helping people keep more of their money, and giving them tools that make it easier to stay on top of their finances. CHIME offers the most rewarding fee, free banking with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, and no minimum balance fees. What I really like is that you get 5% cash back on your chime card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries, while building credit through regular everyday spending. With no credit checks and if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free. Join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.comkaragolden that is chime.comkaragoldEN Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes.

Speaker F: Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

Speaker D: So networking through all of these different connections and building those relationships.

Speaker E: Yeah, you have to be creative.

Speaker D: I love it. This is a four year journey thus far and you are building two companies and really the consumer facing the fish company ceremony and Shinkai, which is harder to build when you sit back and look at because this is kind of a B2B versus A, uh, B2C. And it's wholesale but it's, you know, it's really showing what can be done. I get it. But you're still on the hook for making both of those companies work. So which one is harder, would you say? Knowing what, you know, today

Speaker E: we don't think of them as separate companies. It's all under the same umbrella. I think just because eventually we may be building other technologies that we may not want to just service for ourselves. That's why we have the distinction between the two names. All the problems are hard. You know, it's like it just depends on the day. Um, and you know, what, what comes up, uh, convincing fishermen, you know, in a new port or with a new species, you know, because there's no track record there, that's hard, right? Deploying robots that have to hit surgical accuracy at industrial speeds in a maritime environment, that's very hard. You know, being able to process fish when, you know, most of them are, you know, to be cost competitive or shipped internationally and back, you know, domestically. You know, building a plant from scratch is very difficult. Building the supply chain, you know, the distribution network, you know, selling to chefs, proving that the fish is actually there, educating people, you know, and actually ultimately building a household name brand and more than a brand, an actual quality standard, all those things, you know, they're difficult. And so we built an amazing team that, you know, we believe has the best, best person in the world for each individual seat to actually solve those problems. And you know, my job as one of the leaders of the company is to really figure out what are the actual problems within that are existential to the company. Working for Each one of those sets of problems and who is the right person that can actually solve those fires faster and better than I can. And so as a CEO, when I think about my job, ultimately it's really like executive recruiting. Everything else is derivative of that. Right. So, um, the vision is there to excite people about the mission that we're on, the financing capacities to buy people time to be able to get to the point where we don't have to rely on external investor capital. And finally, just recruiting is being able to convince people that there's a certain version of the world that should exist that doesn't, and that they are the best person to come and help solve that. Alongside the amazing team.

Speaker D: So you've raised money from, uh, some pretty high profile investors. Founders Fund hvc. Congratulations. I mean, so incredible. What did those investors initially have the hardest time believing about your idea? That I guess you've proven them wrong.

Speaker E: Yeah, you know, I think no matter the stage, until you're starting to raise from like very, you know, traditional private equity or you know, spreadsheet minded investors, people just back the team and you know, that is derivative, like backing, you know, the, the founding team and so.

Speaker D: Uh-huh.

Speaker E: I think we had a very difficult time fundraising for the first two years. You know, I was running on weeks of Runway for months and months, like probably about 18 months straight. And so that was very painful in that, you know, made me a better entrepreneur from a stress capacity side. But when we were able to get, you know, our kind of core team in place, which was my co founder, you know, leading teams at SpaceX, we had a couple people, you know, exspacex early on, commercial fishermen with a robotics PhD. You know, like that gave us the credibility to actually earn the right to solve the problem. And then from there on every single round was about what risk were we trying to prove was de risked and what capital didn't need to solve that from like a broader vision of okay, cool, if we want to be able to democratize artisanal seafood, these are the things that need to happen and what's actually step by step. And so investors that have passed generally just I think believe either one, we can't do it yet here we are. Or, or two, that it's just like not as exciting a market. Agriculture is a massive market. You know, when you think about cattle, poultry, seafood, you know, like all vegetables, things like that. The problem with why there's not a ton of like household names in these industries that are new or cutting edge is because economics are very difficult to work out and make and hard. And there's so much economies of scale at, you know, in the companies that to be a new challenger in the industry, whether you're working with or against, you know, the incumbents, it's very, very difficult and you're on a very heavy slope and you have to raise a lot of money and so on and so on. So we believe we've identified a wedge that helps us, you know, then scale this one that's vertically integrated. You know, eventually we'll also partner with some of the incumbents too. But at the same time, like at the end of the day you're pitching a thesis and as long as you have one investor every round that says yes, it doesn't really matter what everybody else thinks.

Speaker D: No, it's so, so interesting. Well, what you're doing with both companies, I mean, I can taste the difference with Ceremony, but also it's just Shinkai is my head is spinning with all, all kinds of ideas, uh, around where this could go. And I agree on agriculture and lots of other industries that I think you could really help change, uh, as well. So, so, so cool. So Saif, thank you so much. Saif Khawaja, co founder and CEO of Ceremony and also Shinkai Systems. Really appreciate you coming on and sharing all of your wisdom. Good luck with everything. Really, really cool. And everyone definitely be on the lookout for Ceremony in uh, great stores like Whole Foods as well as AR1 and restaurants and all the fancy Michelin star restaurants that uh, you get to go to or dream of going to. Definitely check it out. So thank you again. Safe and uh, thanks everyone for listening.

Speaker E: Kara, thank you again, appreciate it.

Speaker D: Thanks again for listening to the Kara Golden Show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit. And of course feel free to subscribe so you don't miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Karagolden, I would love to hear from you too so feel free to DM me. And if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal best selling book Undaunted where I share more about my journey including founding and building. Hint we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening and goodbye for now.