From Utah to Phoenix: A Startup Journey with Ryley Randall, Founder of Devize

Speaker A: And at this point, I'd, like, paid, like. Like I said, like, all the money I had available to me. And I go in there and they're like, yeah, this looks good. We're like, 60% of the way done, like, you know, month or two more, and we'll be, like, ready to go. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I don't have. I'm, like, sitting there trying to keep it cool, but I'm like, I can't pay you anything more.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Inflection Podcast, where we explore the pivotal moments that have shaped us into who we are today. I am your host, Anebi, and I can't wait to dive into these moments with you. Let's get it. Welcome to this episode of the Inflection Podcast. Super excited to have Riley Randall with us today. Thank you so much for hopping on board.

Speaker A: Thanks for the invite.

Speaker B: Riley is the founder CEO of Device and, uh, building your company out here in Phoenix. It's, uh, exciting in it. I'm curious what that looks like. I, uh, want to look at the. What it looks like building a software startup out here in the Phoenix area.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Phoenix, it has its pros and cons, obviously, Like, Phoenix isn't known for being a startup, uh, hub. So hopefully we change that, ah, soon here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think that's part of why I wanted to build it here was I felt like there was a lot of potential and there was a lot of people who, like, wished things. More things were happening here. And so I feel like whenever you build a company, you end up contributing back to the community in some way. So it just sort of felt like if I was gonna contribute somewhere, where did I want to do that? And Arizona was home for me, so made sense to do it here.

Speaker B: That's cool.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it has. I mean, there's definitely, you know, like, sometimes I feel like, man, this would be easier if I was in San Francisco to recruit some more talent, some just, like, infrastructure. But the cool thing is that I feel like those who are sort of playing the game that we are playing, you get to know all of them really well. You get a lot of help, and everyone seems to feel like, all right, now it's the time for Phoenix to actually do something important and grow up a little bit.

Speaker B: It's cool.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I've been playing around in the startup ecosystem for the past decade, and I will say I'm a lot more excited about it now. Just there's so much activity. Many companies there's more VC activity as well with funding. So I'm very interested to see how it evolved. And it's companies like yours, too, that are moving here, you know, setting up shop here and trusting in the ecosystem and actually growing your companies here. I think, like, it's really exciting. How does this compare to Utah? Because I think you've run. You've also. You bought a company out in Utah before. What does that look like? And it's not a trick question.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Utah has a lot of really good things going for it. I went to school there, and that's where a lot of my connections were. So it made sense to start there. Like I said, as we kind of grew and I thought about, like, I just. I realized more that I was, you know, in addition to building my company, I was, like, contributing to an ecosystem. And what they have going in Utah is great. And I actually feel like it made it really easy for us to start, but it just was a question of, like, all right, if I am going to build my company and, you know, contribute to, like, this. This ecosystem, do I really want to stay here? Do I really feel. I went to school there and there's like some family ties and stuff to Utah, but there's, you know, it was never a place where I felt like I really was invested.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so it just sort of seemed like where. Like, it was questions around, like, you know, who do I really care about and where do I really care about? And so. And I felt like the time was right, sort of what you'd said. I'd always kept tabs on, like, the Arizona scene. It seemed like not a lot was happening. But then it seemed like I started to see some signs that I'm like, okay, there's like, some signs of life. Yeah, there's some positive momentum going on here. And so it would be cool to get there and be, like, at the forefront of it. And, you know, maybe someday we can look back and realize, like, oh, yeah, we were able to have, like, an outsized impact. And I there would, you know, Utah has a lot of great people. They don't need me. Where I feel like Arizona, I have an opportunity to, like, help more people and potentially make a better impact.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. One thing that I so devise really intrigues me. Your value proposition. Some no code software for founders. But what did that look like? Because again, I'm very interested in the stories behind brands. Has it been a series of inflection points? Getting here. Were you scratching your own itch? What was that like getting to now with device?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Are you.

Speaker A: I mean, this can be a pretty long story. Ready for the long story? All right. Yeah. I feel like device started really is a triangulation of a couple things or a few things. And so I would say one was, as you know, I served a mission for my church in West Africa. So I lived in Ghana and Liberia for a year. And, uh, while I was there, I, like, naturally kept having these feelings of, like, there has got to be a way to, like, help more of these people participate in the, like, global economy that exists now, right? Like, yeah, we're so connected. And the realization I'm like, this is, like, what the Internet was for, right? Like, the whole world's connected now. And even in, like, you know, some random village I was in, there was still an Internet cafe. And you could go, wow, you know, you could still go. You still get on Google. And there was, like, you know, 4G Internet.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And so. So I sort of felt like, all right, there's. I didn't know what it would look like, but I sort of felt like, what is the way to help more people? Like, basically make things for the Internet and in some way, like I said, just play a bigger part in this global digital economy where it doesn't matter where you live. If you've got skills and you can do the work, there's someone who can pay you for it. And then I would say the other piece was, I've always been very entrepreneurial, and so naturally, I had lots of ideas, and increasingly they became. When I went to college, I had all these ideas, and I had this realization that, like, man, it seems like every idea I have needs software in some way. And so I start trying to find people who can make it for me. Um, and, I mean, I can. This is where the story can get along. So I even, at one point, I had this idea for this app that I'm like, all right, this is going to be for sure work. I was like, I'd just gotten back from Africa, So I was 21, but, like, a freshman in college, didn't really know the world works kind of thing. Was sure that, like, all right, I can just, like, build this thing, release it, and, like, it'll sell itself, whatever. So I hired, like, uh, a local agency to work on a project for me, and we, like, met before. They, like, told me what the budget was. I had no money. So I, like, reworked some student loans where I could, like, instead of Paying for. I was like, all right, I can like, pay basically all. I literally put like, what. Not just more than I had, like, literally, like over what I had because I took out loans to like, pay for this thing. Uh, but I was so sure that it would sell. And so I went, you know, like, progress was going on. At first it was good. Then I started getting like, less updates. I wasn't really sure how things were happening. I was kind of focusing on school too. And then I. They're like, all right, hey, let's meet on like X date. And I. So I went to this meeting expecting to like, have the app done. And at this point I'd like, paid like, like I said, like, all the money I had available to me. And I go in there and they're like, yeah, this looks good. We're like 60% of the way done, like, you know, month or two more and we'll be like, ready to go. And I was like, uh, oh my gosh, like, I don't have. I'm like sitting there trying to keep it cool, but I'm like, I can't pay you anything more. Like, so I'm like sitting there trying to ask them like, what, what are we going to do here? And so I ended up just like, all right, give me just like, I don't Even know how GitHub, um, works at the time. Just like, give me all of the code that you have written and I will figure it out. And yeah, so like I said, I was trying to keep it cool there, but I left and I got in my car and I think I sat in my car for like an hour maybe just like, I think I just screwed up my life. It's funny looking back now because it's like relatively not like that much amount of money. Like, definitely not enough money where it like ruined your life. But at the time I was also like newly married too. I was like thinking about how did

Speaker B: that come conversation go.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, seriously, I was like sitting there like, how am I gonna, like, you know, I had sold my wife on this, like my brand new wife, like, on this idea that like, we're gonna be so rich over, like, sell this software. So I'm like sitting there like, oh, how am I gonna tell that? Like, hey, yeah, uh, like we're out of money and like, this thing doesn't work. And so I think it gave me this, like, I don't know, just this, this, like, this was my first experience of building software and realizing like, wow, that was terrible. Like, what a Terrible experience. And I don't. And, you know, like, the agent I worked with, I don't think they necessarily even did anything wrong. Like, yeah, maybe they communicated more. I just didn't ask questions. I didn't know how it worked.

Speaker B: Do you even know what to ask?

Speaker A: I didn't even know what to ask. Like, so I don't even think it was really all their fault. Like, looking back now, right. Like, I don't necessarily blame them as much as it was just like, this big, like, slap in the face of like, okay, yeah, this was. That really sucked. Yeah. Um, but, okay, I was like, how am I gonna dig myself out of this hole? So I basically just would set up my laptop on a computer, I'd go to school, do stuff, and then it was like, time to go to bed. My wife go to bed. And I would just say, like, all right, see you later. And I would go sit in his office. I would leave it dark so I had nothing to look at. I would just stare at the screen for as long as I could, just trying to. And googling, whatever. And just like, if I stare at this thing long enough, all these little curly braces and syntax and everything will just start to make sense. And, yeah, it turns out if you take that approach, after months of just staring at a screen, they start kind of making sense. You site little, but you start being able to understand, uh, what questions to ask a little bit more. And looking at stack overflow and stuff making sense, then you can start building things. And, you know, I was doing, like, online free courses to try and figure out. I even was like, I wanted to buy a course, but I was like, I can't spend any more money.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, yeah, and ChatGPT obviously wasn't a thing, so that would have saved me a lot of time.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: I know. A few years too early, but. Okay, so, like, how am I going to build this app along this process of, like, all right, I'm not a very good developer, you know, I barely know anything. I'm just, like, trying to figure out this stuff works. I started trying to turn to all of these tools that would, like, be able to solve some piece of this, like, application that I wanted to build. So the application was just a way for businesses to get more reviews on Google. So it was like, the idea was just like, we'll give you a little form that you can just keep open on a tab, and you can enter someone's name and a phone number and it'll send them a text, leave a

Speaker B: Google review and then they do the review and it pops up in your Google account.

Speaker A: Yep, yep. Yeah. And it was like a link directly there. And then there was some like other ideas and stuff. But I was like, you know, that's what I discovered. Like, okay, there's APIs. Okay, there's like some tool that like, I don't have to code the API integration. I can just use something like Zapier and build this flow out. Oh, there's this widget that will let you do Google searches. I can use that to let people look up their business or whatever. So I started turning to. I didn't know this terminology really at the time, but I started realizing that, oh, there's this world of these no code tools and none that were like. So anyways, I started using all these tools to build all of these applications. And along this way it dawned on me that going back to my feelings when I was on my mission in Africa, that like this, like, I can, I'm figuring this out. Like, I wouldn't. It gave me the vision that like, okay, like you can build software without having to write code necessarily, but it was still kind of a clunky process. You had to like be kind of technical. And so. But it wasn't even necessarily about that. Like I was really passionate about no code itself as much as that. Uh, like I just felt like this was an easier, more approachable way to start making things that you could actually like go and sell.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So yeah, that, I mean that business didn't actually have to work. Like I built it and it kind of worked and we actually got a few customers. But along the way I actually ended up starting an agency where that's what we did. We were kind of like a no code agency, but we would build apps for people, but like Frankensteining together all of these different backend tools to do something. And they were kind of slow and clunky and we got more sophisticated over time, but amazing. Anyway, sorry.

Speaker B: Oh no. That sets the stage perfectly for device. Right. Which essentially is like uh, a custom software tool to 10x the way you build software and also at a fraction of the cost. So that's very interesting. I want to talk about that from you what the secret sauce is if we think about device. I hear no code there. Uh, speed 10x is pretty damn, uh, good value prop and also reduces complexity and also fraction of the cost. So speed, cost and uh, quality, obviously quality software. It's always a balance. Trying to. Usually none of those, you have to pick and yeah, on one of Those. So it's interesting to hear the value prop of, hey, you can get as high on all these levers as possible. So what does that look like for device? How are you doing that? Uh, with the one no code tool to rule them all? Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, I would say this is sort of a subtle difference, but I made this point that we will use the term no code just because people will sometimes have a context of what that means. But we rarely use it internally, nor do we. Our company's mission is to make software 10 times faster to build and 10 times cheaper. But how that actually happens will likely change over the course of us building device. Right now that looks like we have a no code platform. So you're asking, all right, how's it faster? Well, one, I think I bring up this point a lot, but if you think about devices for building web apps, the web is like a visual experience, right? Like when computers, when software started, it was like all based on a command line and you were writing text and then it was like a textual interface. But then we got a graphical user interface. But then still somehow the way you build these graphical interfaces is by writing lines of text, which, I mean, it's not exactly. But sometimes I'll use the joke, like imagine if you download to Photoshop and the way you used Photoshop was saying that like, const image equals like writing out code to like, you're doing a visual work. Like, yeah, it should be. It doesn't make it visual. But today that's how a lot of web development is, right? Like it's a. It's a visual medium, but we're using it through code and it can be effective. But I don't. I think what we do at devise. That's part of why we're successful is we've made the visual development matches what you're building. Right. It was time to update that.

Speaker B: You also seem to have, uh, would I say professional services component. You're not just saying, here you go, figure it out, it's easier, but build it. But I think you still have, if that's your part of your business model, where essentially your team can also build it. So it's not only, hey, we give you a faster, more cost effective tool, but also so by the way, we can help you build it. So that's very interesting. It's like vertical integration a bit.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. I think that, I mean, we can talk. I'm sure you'll have more questions about this later, but I think that's one of the things That I had to learn a lot. Part of being a founder is that like there's different ways you innovate and like you can. We often think innovating is like just about the product, but there's actually like a lot of different levers you can pull. And like just like business model is one of those things that I, I underappreciated and so frankly devise has been tough to build. Like you said. How do you balance all three? It's like, well, it's because it's really, really tough. Like actually building a platform where we feel like, hey, you can build faster, it'll be like cheaper to build. Oh, and by the way, the actual app that runs or is going to be more performant and better than an app that you went and hired some engineer to write. It's actually a really tricky problem to solve and I think we hit a lot of. And then you like throw on on top of it. Like, well, it needs to be like user friendly and you've got to like uh, have like a good U and UX experience. You've got to have good customer support. Like there's all these. That's what I was talking about. There's like all these different levers you can pull in a business. And so yeah, this change recently was just about, I think one, a realization for us that like we need to stop waiting around to find some magic bullet and what can we do today to drive growth in our business? And that was like, all right, well if we know how to use the tool, so what if we as an option gave people the ability to just let us build it? So the value prop is not like you can build it super fast, but you were going to pay someone to build this for you anyways. You can pay us and we can do it in a fraction of the time and happens to be a fraction of the cost as well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And yeah, it's turned out to work really, really well for us and I think that's a trend. We'll see more. I think we'll start to see a lot more companies and startups where I've seen the phrase on X or Twitter a few times now that like, you know, historically we've all talked about software as a service and in the future I think we'll see a lot more software and a service. Yeah, like that vertical integration, which I think can be really, really powerful.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean I invested a few companies, one of them being Radhash. And that's kind of the idea too. It's like no longer just a software as a service, but software and service and investor ecosystem where you can sell it. It's very interesting again thinking along the lines of full vertical integration and ownership over your ip. I mean able to do without what you want or change your mind or again, you own it, you own it all. So that's very interesting. I think, yeah, we'll be seeing a lot more of that and I'm excited for it all. There's another question that comes to mind with regards to a lot of the episodes we end up talking about AI, even though it's not AI is not the main conversation. But uh, where do you see AI falling into all of this? It could be personally, for device or even generally industry. I see people on two ends of a spectrum or maybe in the middle of bullish on it or wary of it. Where do you see that fitting in? You mentioned ChatGPT earlier. Yeah, that would have helped you a while ago, but what's your posture towards it?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I mean I'm definitely, I think bullish on it. Like, I think it's. I have personally seen enough and like built enough use cases to where it's like, it'd be impossible to say. It's like not incredibly helpful and like I, you know, maybe it is overhyped. But it's definitely like, yeah, there is definitely worthy of at least part of the hype that it's getting. But I do think that where people get wrong right now is the best AI Use cases I see are all still keep a human in the loop. Right? The idea of this AI is like we're replacing humans. But I'm not seeing, I've yet to see a really well executed use case where that's actually the case, it's fully autonomous instead where it's about like, all right, what if we could just give this human, you know, the word superpowers gets used a lot but you know, so it's instead of, it's like, all right, we uh, have a company that has, we spend a lot on customer support. The idea is let's try and see if we can make it more efficient with AI. The solution is not to, well, let's build a chatbot and like our customers can chat with us. Whatever, whatever. The solution is, what if we built a tool for our customers to support agents so when a new message comes in, they, they can automatically pulls up the relevant text. It can generate a response that the person can just like proofread and like edit if they need to and then send it out which is like a sort of a difference. And it's like. It's a difference in what part of the problem you are solving.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I think for right now, the models may get. I mean, they will get better. And so, like, all of this advice, it will change as Steph gets better. But that's what excites me is not this idea of AI versus humans and M more instead of what can humans do with AI and how can we take all these tasks that are historically just long, monotonous, boring, and don't require that human spark of creativity that makes work exciting? How can we leverage AI to speed all that stuff up so we can all focus on the things we really like doing and are much more higher leverage? That's my take on it.

Speaker B: I was chatting with someone that was also the verdict, where AI, uh, essentially becomes more like, uh, an amplifier. So for those who are already doing good work, they'll be light years ahead of those who are already struggling. So it's like with AI, you can get a lot more done in a shorter amount of time or improve processes or remove the mundane, you know, stuff, so you could focus on the strategic levers. So that's kind of how I see it as well with AI. I've used so many AI, uh, tools for design and whatnot, and many times it's good for a first draft. And I iterated, or you have a first draft, it sprinkles some pixie dust in it, and then you work on that. But barely often have I seen where it's the whole enchilada AI Things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And essentially I'm just like, all right, take finished product use. There's still human, at least in my experience, human in the loop for quality control or adding more creativity to something.

Speaker A: And I would say, I feel like that's where most AI, Uh products need to improve. Is it your point that it's good for first draft? Then I need to iterate. I have found the biggest challenge is. And I think about. And, um, part of this is coming from our experience with Devise. But it's not like the. You know, it's really cool to say, like, yeah, get the first draft, but then how do you actually iterate afterwards? And I feel like a lot of products, that's where they fall short is it's like you can do something to generate an image, and then your next prompt is like, all right. But, like, just tweak it a little bit. You're getting, like, something totally different back.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Where you almost feel like, oh, I'd like to generate an image and then. Oh, at that point I actually kind of want to like convert back into like a non AI tool where I can like these were all separate layers and I can drag and move them around. I'm excited to see how more and more AI tools adopt that approach where.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Be a lot more iterative and see how those workflows. See what those workflows look like.

Speaker B: 100%. I'm very keen. I'm always experimenting with them and we'll see. It's always a new kid on the block.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, there's a new one to you. There's some there. Really. It's nice to see the advancement in models. It seems like it's taking shorter and shorter amounts of time to train them and bring out more sophisticated models. So you see where it goes with that. Uh, one thing to. With building companies, communities are a big aspect of that. Whether communities you're part of to help or building a community around your product to help it thrive. Some products have been able to get into the build like a cult following and community site. We're with you no matter what. Uh, AI too seem to have that. There are people who are early adopters of midjourney, for example and just stuck with it. And I followed all the iterations for device. What has that looked like when talk about community from the perspective of communities that have helped you as a founder and founding team. But also what does it look like cultivating community around your product?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, that's a great question. And frankly, I don't know. I feel like this is an area where at devise we are still, I mean I would say we need to improve, but also like I think we're still thinking through how we really want this to play out. I'll speak from my experience though. I mentioned my experience of trying to learn to code.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I got pretty active in a lot of um, online communities. A lot of no code communities, a lot of communities about learning how to code. And those are frankly like probably the biggest help because you have these other people who are either trying to solve a similar problem and you felt like we're all like fighting back about against who even knows what, uh, together. But like, you know, we're all helping each other out and yeah, it can be a pretty special experience when you feel like you can get connected in a. With like something you really care about with people that are like really helping you. And so that, I mean now going to devise, I think that's Part of why we're being so careful about it is I think it can be really easy now that communities are so common that there's people who just like they see community, uh, and really what they see is like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to promote my business, get more work, whatever. And so a lot of it has been how do we, how do we make a community that's like really authentic in helping people and really authentic. And like there's like we were asking the questions like okay, what, what does it mean to be a part of our community? Why do people actually want to be a part of it? And how do we like what mechanisms do we put in place so that it doesn't just become like a de facto job board or just like, you know, every other post is just like some self promotion or which a lot of communities get into.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I think you saw that quite a bit in the crypto community because it was literally money. It was like, okay, I'm going to be here. Not because I'm going to keep post as many times in this discord channel, not because I really care about the mission of this token, but I'm making some bet that if I do that I'll get some airdrop and then I can make some easy money eight months later down the line.

Speaker B: It's like more, more exploitative and self, self aggrandizing. And I think that makes me think of the currency for community. In my opinion it's like value, uh, as a community want, just see if you're creating a community or curating a community, giving value uh, to the members. But also I think you want the kinds of members who are coming there not just to get value but also to give value. So I see value as like a primary currency and that's something. So LinkedIn is still one of the social media platforms that is very much so hey, for professionals. But increasingly you see a lot of the self serving posts and things like that, or someone sends you a dm, um, or connect request, you connect with them and the next thing you're saying is like, hey, you want to buy my stuff? It's like yeah, I just met you. And uh, that's very off putting for a lot of folks. Uh, I wrote out a community called LinkedIn Guild and the idea for LinkedIn Guild is hey, community for LinkedIn Nerds by LinkedIn Nerds. That is authentic. Where we're just learning how do we grow. I've been able to build a brand on there and many others who've done the same. And can we just geek out about the algorithm, what we're seeing, what works, just fun things we're finding on LinkedIn, maybe Easter eggs or whatever, and sharing that with the community. Today's been a lot of fun getting that going and exploring different platforms, because it's not just what the community is also, it's where it is. So it's been fun, like, figuring all of that out for multiple communities, including LinkedIn guild. So, yeah, it's a hard one, figuring out the value, uh, you're offering and how to bring in folks who actually add value to the community.

Speaker A: And I feel like there's a risk, too, because you kind of. I mean, like, things don't work out, but like you said, it's like, value. You sort of feel like, all right, if we're going to do it, then we're going to really lean into this and we're going to, like, this needs to be something that actually does provide a lot of value. A lot of value gets given and it, like, becomes a big part. Like, the big risk is if you kind of approach it, like, lukewarm, uh, especially early on. I feel like communities, like, they take a lot of work and a lot of stoking to, like. Like, all communities take on a culture. Like, it takes a lot of kind of work to prune it into the way you want it to be. And so, um, I think that's part of the, like, it's like the exciting part, but also like, the risky part that you're like, if I started and you're kind of like, lukewarm about it, then it just turns this weird thing where people are like, why did I join this? Like, yeah, still active? Like, uh, you know, like, I've been a part of a lot of communities where I'm like, is this, like, still. Is, like, still a thing? I should, you know, like, as soon as people have questions like, is this still a thing I, like, is worth my time, then it's like a quick, absolute. Yeah, quick death to the community.

Speaker B: It makes me think of the 1% rule. A friend, Joel, was telling me about this. But the 1% rule, right? It's like in communities, online communities, or even. Maybe even physical communities, maybe it translates into that, like, about 1% of folks who create the most amount of content. So your first 1%, uh, very, very Everyone in your community is important, but, like, even those. More so, because if 1%, you want that 1% that are active. And again, because usually communities, they're just serial lurkers who Come in and just. They don't engage consumer. Which is fine. That's uh, invariably what will happen. But it's like, how do you get that 1% of folks who are engaged because they will create majority of the content and the value generated most and the tone.

Speaker A: Right. Like some communities, you're like, oh, yeah, this is a place like, it's just, you get into a community, you can see like, okay, this is a place where we use lots of emojis or you know, like, yeah, you know, like, memes are unacceptable. Like post here. Where other times you're like, oh, no, it's like. And have too many memes. Yeah, yeah, all good communities should. But I'm just saying, like the tone, it's like early 1% that I feel like set a lot of the tone of, like how every other person who will come in and end up being like a contributor. Like how they like the kinds of things they'll post and like how they think about it. Absolutely. Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: What would you say is one thing you would do differently? If you were to go back again, start device? What would you do differently?

Speaker A: Just one?

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, you could say several, maybe a few. But.

Speaker A: Well, no, I'm only. Because I. Startups are great for a lot of reasons, but I think one of the thing I didn't appreciate the most would be how much like, personal growth it would require for me to like, to just like start a company from like, nothing. And so I often joke that, like, if you've ever wondered what it's like to punch yourself in the face, just do a startup. Because it feels like every other week I feel like something will happen and I feel like, wow, this is terrible. How did this happen? Who did this? And you realize, me, I did it. I did it myself when I made some dumb choice six months ago and here it is. Now I just punch myself in the face.

Speaker B: That's a good analogy.

Speaker A: I mean, there's a million things that I would do differently. I think the overall arching theme though would be I would have been much more focused on bringing in customers much earlier on. Like, I think there is a mistake. And, um, I was the worst offender. I've probably made every startup mistake you could possibly make. And the fact that we're still alive is like, I don't know. But I think just because, like, you know, we were refusing to give up. But like, especially earlier on, people like, you're about to start a product and someone asks you like, oh, who's your customer? I think we tend to answer that. Question with an icp, like, oh, we're like small businesses who need custom software. Whatever. It's like, no, no, no. When you're, like, first starting out, in some sense, who's your customer? It should be like, it is, John. Like, I should know who that person is as much as possible and maybe even, uh, like your first 10. I think if you're starting out and someone says, like, who's your customer? And you don't have, like, three names in the top of your head, I think it's a sign at least for me, that, like, I should have been spending much more time with those customers and then finding ways, like, I think we get fixed. At least I did. On, like, the solution that you want and not, uh, in the problem that you have. And so.

Speaker B: So essentially, like a solution. A hammer looking for a nail.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Yeah. You know, a common. And in our case, it took a really long time to build this hammer where I think I instead could have thought, all right, well, these are the customers we're building a hammer for. There are other ways to provide value to them. What are something I can do in a much shorter amount of time to solve their problems and think about it through the lens of creating value and not creating a solution, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think that would have changed a lot of our product decisions. It would have changed how we run as a company. I think it would have done a lot to help us not get punched in the face as many times as we have. Yeah.

Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. For those listening, what are good ways to engage with device?

Speaker A: Yeah, good question.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: I mean, uh, the obvious one is if you run a business and feel like, hey, we've been wanting to build some kind of software for our business, then hopefully, I mean, hopefully you'll at least look at us. I think we have a pretty strong offer in the sense that, like, you know, we're often fractions of the price and we can do things much quicker. But the other one that may be more, I don't know, maybe more applicable is we've talked about this is we are having a lot more partners that we work with, like other small businesses who either do marketing or they'll do, like, SEO or they'll do videography for businesses, and they hear or come across the need for custom software. And so it's really been fun to partner with businesses in that way in sort of like a partnership and referral way where we can basically, uh, either like, white label or offer our services through them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I only bring that up because a lot of times someone's like, well, I don't need custom software, but you might know someone. You might know someone, and there might be a way that you can. Like, it can help, you know, it could help your business by reaching out, so.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And we'll add some of these to the show notes, too, uh, and your link and social profiles. But thank you so much.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: It's, uh, fun coming on board.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.