Being yourself, with Jo Rzymowska MBE

Speaker A: Bringing you fresh thinking about people, culture,

Speaker B: well being and leadership inspired by real stories.

Speaker A: With your host, Blair Palmer, it's the Human Revolutionary Show. Hello and welcome back to the Human Revolutionaries Show. I'm Blair Palmer. I'm a keynote speaker and author. I'm an expert on the future of work and leadership. And uh, I'll put all my information at the end if you want to get in touch with me. But actually this season of the show is all about diving into the importance of health and well being as an integral part of the leadership. It has been so great to record this little season. It's very short, it's only a few interviews, but I've been on such a journey around my health over the last, I mean four or five years, but in particularly, uh, the last two and a half years that I wanted to share some of what I've learned and some of the people I've learned it from. Many of the people that I've spoken to have influenced me and made me think differently about health and particularly this intersection between health and leadership. I've said it a few times, but I think it's worth emphasizing as we come to the end of this season that leadership development started off as an intellectual pursuit, a science. Um, this is something that you learn about at university. You can take an mba, you can have a degree that covers leadership and what it takes to be a great leader. Then we realized rightly that it wasn't

Speaker C: just about the head, it was also about the heart.

Speaker A: And we started to incorporate empathy and self awareness and a sense of purpose and values. And what motivates people, what do people care about? Should we, as leaders care about people?

Speaker C: Why would we do that?

Speaker A: Is it just for commercial benefit? Or is there some deeper sense of meaning that we get from our role? If we're willing to put our heart into the work that we do as leaders, however, we still neglect the body. We still treat the body as a machine that moves the brain and the heart around. And in fact it's very often a badge of honor that you are actively, uh, neglecting your health. I don't know if you've ever been asked how you are and responded busy. And then the other person has said, oh, good. The point being that you're supposed to be busy. Um, but I wonder if that is true and I wonder if that is a healthy success criteria for leaders, especially if we're going to be working for longer and longer and especially in an environment that we're trying to make humane, because it's the humanity of people that we need to come in to our businesses. We have AI to do all the stuff that doesn't require humanity and therefore we have to look after the humanity of our people and treasure it. It's the only differentiator between them and the technology and we cannot prioritize that for them if we're not prioritizing it for ourselves. I wanted to finish off this season with this wonderful conversation with Jo Jamuska MBE. Jo is an inspirational leader and speaker. She's an executive advisor, She's a NED for Head Hayes Travel. She's a massive expert in the travel industry. She's worked in travel her whole life. Companies like Walt Disney, Universal Studios, Thomas Cook, uh, culminating in being Celebrity Cruises Vice President and Managing Director of emea. Uh, in this interview we discuss holistic health and well being and in particular how being true to ourselves and impacts our health. Jo has seen massive changes over her career in our ability to be ourselves and how that's impacted her personally. And she's embraced that more and more as she's gone through her career. She's also made it possible for others to do the same and that is why she was awarded the MBE. The evidence is that our personal growth as leaders has a huge impact on how others are able to grow and develop all the different dimensions that they bring. It's really important that leaders prioritize their personal growth and being authentic and being true to themselves so that others in the organization can do the same. Otherwise, you're asking others to do something that you're not able or willing to do. It's also really important, particularly now, to talk about diversity because everything that I've talked about in this season is related to being yourself, being true to yourself, even if that means going counterculture, questioning compliance and conformity to conventions that are ruining our health, both our physical health and our mental health, and getting in the way of transforming our organizations to be fit for the future. In this conversation we start with Jo's early life as being an outsider. Being born and raised as an outsider, how we, Generation X probably colluded with the prevailing culture of wanting to get on and then perpetuating behavior that we now realize was unacceptable. Whether there's a place for dei, uh, policies and development today, her journey to becoming truly herself in her life and in her work, how to be a great ally, what it was like being recognized with an MBE and ultimately what you need to consider so that you too can be more true to yourself. I'll, uh, put all her contact details at the end of the show notes and mine as well. But meantime, I hope you really enjoy this interview.

Speaker C: Jo, so great to have you on the show. How are you today?

Speaker B: I'm excellent, thank you. Blair, it's wonderful to see you again and to be talking to you. First it was the third or fourth of September, aren't we? Fourth of September.

Speaker C: Yeah. And kicking off into autumn. It's very autumnal.

Speaker B: It certainly is.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's a bit of a wake up, isn't it? But I mean there's so many reasons that, that I wanted to talk to

Speaker B: you and I think you're a very

Speaker C: good fit for this season, uh, of the show which is really about um,

Speaker A: leadership, health and leadership well being.

Speaker C: But it. That's such a broad topic. Um, and you know, it'll become clear, I think as we're talking why I think that you're really, really great perspective on that. But why don't we start by you telling us uh, a little bit about the early days of your career. What, you know, it's been travel and touring, uh, from the start. But, but what I'm really curious about is how embarking on that career contrasted or built upon the experiences that you'd had growing up. Was it, was it a very different life suddenly when you embarked into travel and tourism?

Speaker B: Not really. And I think my background really led me into travel and tourism. So just a brief synopsis and do move me on if I, if I start to, to ramble on too much, but my. A German Jew from Berlin, uh, came over on the last kinder transport actually. Uh, my father was Polish Catholic and was fought in the Warsaw uprising and was prisoner of war and survived. And they both were refugees, um, in London. They lost their, their families respectively. My, my mother's parents were in the camps, um, and didn't make it out. And my father's father and brother were. Were killed in front of his mother by the Gestapo. So they arrived here without family, um, and they met interestingly enough through the Polish club, um, which is sort of a place for international gatherings and fell in love. And um, um. They then actually sadly they couldn't have their own children. They adopted my brother and I, sadly, unfortunately from my point of view, because they're most wonderful parents. So I think I was brought up, I'm a Europhile through and through. I was brought up, um, hearing with eating different foods. You know, friends used to come and stay and then find it, found it odd in those days that we'd have sausage and cheese for breakfast, um, and um. That, um, you know, the, the vodkas were out at quite an early age for a little, ah, a little tipple, um, uh, under control of course. But so I was, I was brought up with that environment and therefore we did, luckily we did, um, do a lot of holidays. You know, we didn't have a lot of money in those days. My father ended up setting up quite a successful business. But we are camping holidays were our holidays. And the joy of that was mixing with so many different nationalities. So my mother was a linguist. She taught French and German, obviously spoke fluent English as well. She learned Polish. Um, so languages were always in, in my heart. So I studied German, French and Spanish. Um, I used to say I could work in German, eat in French and drink in Spanish, and now I can just drink in all of them. Um, and so I knew that I wanted to be in an environment I loved people love meeting new people. And to me, I thought mixing the joy of traveling as a career, uh, was. Was a great idea.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's so interesting that, that, that background just. You felt like you could, uh. It sounds like you could talk to almost anybody. You know, it was so diverse and there was so much richness and um, difference in that compared with maybe how some of the kids that you grew up with were living. That, that just opened up the whole world to you.

Speaker B: It did. I mean, that phrase of so the world is your oyster was a phrase that I was brought up with. Um, and really embracing people and being inquisitive and always looking for the best in people was one of the other mottos. Which, interestingly enough, my, My mother's father wrote to my mother and I've. I've found that letter and I'm writing their stories now. Um, and he, he said even though he knew what was going to be happening to him, Bear Bull, as she was called, uh, Barbara in German. Always look for the best in people. And, and I think that was an ethos that they, um, bred into me. And as a result of that, um, it's been such a joy to have a incredible career traveling to so many different countries, but not just traveling to them, but really working in those countries and truly getting to understand those different cultures. Yeah.

Speaker C: So obviously times were pretty different in phase. Was it when you first started in your career, was there any talk about diversity, inclusion, equity, any of these sorts of topics?

Speaker B: No, none whatsoever. So we're talking, um, about sort of late 80s, early, uh, 90s. Um, it was very, I was always very clear that I wanted to make travel a career, not Just a hobby. So I really had a key plan. I did a business studies travel and tourism degree. Um, I then made sure that every five years I was looking at moving around into different companies. And I had the joy of working for wonderful organizations. Disney, Universal, Thomas Cookley, uh, Royal Caribbean. But in those early days, there was no talk of diversity. And I think that part of it is. That's where character comes in. I think because I was given this level of confidence and openness from my parents that I. Therefore, I didn't have the psyche of saying, actually, should I speak out? Shouldn't I speak out? Am I different because I'm female and not male? I absolutely came across just people assuming that male colleagues were more senior than I was, even if actually I was there, their boss, especially when we went to meet clients. Always that was the case pretty much. Um, but you sort of accepted it. You know, the phrase that I use in the 80s and 90s is that I actually feel that a lot of the. Of my generation, female generation, who were really setting out on a career path, actually, we perpetuated the problems of chauvinism and, um, misogyny because we. If you can't beat them. If you can't beat them, join them. And the way in which we handled it, a lot of us, not everybody, was actually going with the flow and laughing at the jokes and not pulling people up on it. And I think that was about the year of the time that we were in. I think it's also about confidence. You know, then I was in my late 20s, early 30s, and I wanted to get on. I didn't want to be, um, you know, isolated. So I actually think we perpetuate a lot of the behavior. And I think it's only as. Certainly from m. My point of view, as I grew older and I became more confident and as times changed altogether overall, that then I felt that I was strong enough and confident enough then to really question and pick people up on. On key issues or the way in which people spoke to one another. Um, it was a different time. And, um, you know, added to that, I was. I knew then I was working out my own sexuality. And. And then realizing that I was a gay woman was even tougher as well. So I actually wanted to conf. I wanted to be accepted as much as possible, I think.

Speaker C: M. Yeah, I mean, you know, I remember all of that very much. And I mean, just not only just laughing at the. At the comments and the jokes, but not even noticing really there was anything wrong with that. Remember when I Worked, um, at the BBC and we had, there was a really big American politician being interviewed by one of our rivals down the corridor. And, um, my editor said we need someone to go down there and convince him to come up to our studio and do an interview. Let's find a pretty young girl to go down. Because he was quite known to be partial to a young girl. And I was picked to go down and there was no part of me, I was thrilled.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Pretty young girl that was sent down to flirt with the American politician and get him to come and be on our show. Yeah, no part of me thought, really we're doing that. We're one of, with the top news show in the country and that's how we're guests. Didn't even occur to me. I was just delighted to be picked.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, yeah, so, so, yes, it was, it definitely was. And, um, I'm pleased to say that, that things have changed. Although have they changed enough? Is a, is a big, big question.

Speaker C: I mean, you know, it doesn't, we don't need to emphasize, but I'm just about to just how controversial diversity, equity and inclusion has become. I mean, really a massive battleground. It's extraordinary to me and I, I, I wouldn't think there are that many people listening to this who, who, uh, who are of that opinion that, oh, we've gone too far or, you know, it's, it's um, prejudicing, uh, you know, other people now, men are, are discriminated against or anything. I, I don't think, and of course men are discriminated against, but I don't think that there are that many people going to be listening to this that think we've, we've become too woke and too accepting at the same time. You know, it's very difficult for companies to justify the budgets and the programs. And I wonder, I mean, you're very involved in that now. We'll pick up on your career and your journey in a minute. But do these, are the programs working? Do you think the diversity programs, that unconscious bias programs, have they been working?

Speaker B: I think it depends on the authenticity of wanting them to work. So when it really works, in my experience in organisation, when there's absolute authenticity from the top that they truly believe that a diverse team is a better team. There's lots of stats, as we know. You know, there's later, the McKinsey report, that the fact of the greater, what I call the three P's, you know, if you focus in on what your purpose is, your people, it generates Greater profit without a doubt. I mean I always say the numbers don't make themselves, the people make the numbers. And therefore if you have a more diverse team, you do get better critical thinking. It might take you longer to get to the outcome because if you're all of the same thinking, you might get there immediately or if it's all real sort of uh, an autocratic way of leadership, then it's people then just don't think for themselves because they just wait for the leader to make that decision and off they go. But if you truly from the top, believe in that a diverse team is a better team and ah, that it might take you longer to get to the decision or the end result, but you'll get to a better result then from what I see, it definitely works. It definitely works because people feel free to be them and to speak up. And therefore you get how often I've been in a meeting and when you go around the room and I always make sure that everybody has contributed because of course those who speak loudest will speak up. But the number of times I've been in a meeting early on in my career, when I left the meeting, somebody who's quieter has said to me actually when you spoke about X, Y and Z, I worry that uh, if we do that A, B and C might happen. And you think oh my God, absolutely right. And actually what I really then very much one of the changes that I made is making sure in every meeting every single person has had their say and that you encourage them in to that discussion and to get their thoughts. And by that I mean very often people who are more junior, they might be from different backgrounds, they might be less confident and make sure that they get included. So yes, it does work, it absolutely does work. If there is authentic leadership from the top down and genuine empowerment from the bottom up in making change and in being listened to and making things happen. If it's a tick box exercise that everybody has to do an unconscious bias course and you have to do it online and say that you've done it. No it doesn't. So if there's just a tick box exercise of doing various things to say, oh yes, we, we are diverse and inclusive, we believe in DEI as an organization, then no, it doesn't happen. You have to make time for it. It has to be on the board agenda every month. It has to be. And it genuinely your people, your teams need to know that this is as important as the commercial strategy, as the marketing strategy, as the sales strategy. And if it hasn't got equal placing, then. No, it doesn't work.

Speaker C: Okay, we'll come back to that. I just want to go. I just want to go back a bit in time to what you were saying about, you know, it. You wanted to belong, you wanted to be included. You didn't want to be different in too many ways, but partly because at the time, um, that was. I mean, that's how you kept your job, wasn't it? It's how you kept your reputation and gave yourself a chance of progressing. So, um, you know, it's very understandable. At the same time, now my experience of you is you couldn't be more of an individual. You couldn't be more yourself. I mean, maybe you could be more yourself. I don't know what you're holding back. So what was. What was the first. Remember even the first steps in kind of allowing yourself to be more you in those environments?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, first of all, it was a terribly traumatic time for me because I have always been an open person, and I was very close to my parents, and keeping things secret from my parents and close friends was really difficult. And the people I found it most difficult to be myself with and to be true about, because they were the ones I feared upsetting the most or losing potentially, um, were those who were closest to me. And I didn't want to upset them. I didn't want to embarrass them. And from a professional point of view, I didn't want to lose my job. I thought I might lose my job in those days. Now, actually, what happened was, is that I was then working for a wonderful guy at Disney, and I actually, one evening he and I went out and he was such a, uh. He was adopted as well, so we had that in common. We spoke about that. Um, he's probably the campest straight man I've ever met, which I still say to him to this day. It's a great friend of mine now. Um, and, um, I. I came out to him and he just was wonderful, and he really gave me that confidence and helped me in the work environment to truly be me. And then the difference that I felt was in truly bringing your whole self to work and not keeping secrets and not sort of just talking about your. Your. What you did at the weekend, I mean, or hiding what you do. You know, making names up was. Was really. It was just. It was like a weight off my shoulders. And the other thing was, is that actually I had nothing but support. You know, I have to say, I've never had anything other than Support. I think potentially behind my back, there might have been a few, um, a few comments. And. And my father's. You know, he was wonderful, and he said, look, Joe, I love you. I'll always love you, but just be careful in the boardroom. Don't allow yourself to be the butter jokes. And I think he was right in those days. I do. Um, so what I would say is it's finding somebody. And this is where, when I talk now to younger LGBTQ people, where there still is fear or. Or LGBTQ people of different ethnicities and backgrounds, where it's still a major challenge, or even now in the United States today, in many places, potentially here, you know, we're going backwards, not forwards. In lots of ways, it's find somebody who you can trust, find somebody who you can talk to. And very often that is not the person who's closest to you. Uh, your family or your. My oldest friends, I found the most difficult to tell because they'd known me for so long. They were all wonderful. But it was easier to talk to people who I just met rather than people who I'd known for years. And I think that's the same now. If you're going through complex situations, I think very often it's easier to talk to people who are not so close to you. So who. But who you feel that you have that. That trust with.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, you and I have got to know each other. Only recently, relatively. Yeah. And, um, you know, I know I can talk to you and. And vice versa.

Speaker C: Yeah. And there is. There is less risk because there's less to lose.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker C: And then it's a great opportunity to kind of practice how you're going to talk about it and to deal with what comes up at a sort of, you know, if you think about a kind of, uh, a comfort zone, and then outside of the comfort zone, it's still outside the comfort zone, but the. It's not in the anxiety.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker C: Everything so important what this person thinks. But I'm sure, you know, I work with a lot of leaders, obviously, and, um, obviously some of them have secrets that they're holding and they're worried about sharing them. But some of them are leaders who suspect that there are people that they work with that have secrets that they would be. That they are. Whatever it is is fine. But they don't trust themselves to react properly when they're told. They're a bit worried about, will I. Will I mess it up? If this person. So they skirt around it, not because they don't want to know, but because I don't want to get it wrong for this person. Um, what if I react badly? What is, what is it that he did that made you think. Actually, that's a great, great action, a great response.

Speaker B: I think we, I think the conversation that we'd had leading up to me then telling him where he opened up about his adoption, where I spoke, so I think we had that in common. So I think there was, there was something, there was that in common. And I just felt I, you, uh, know, I don't want to leave this evening without then being honest to him. That's what it was. It was. And that's because that's the biggest thing is that, as I said, the big thing is when you're, when you're such an honest person and integrity is such an important thing, which is two of my key, key attributes. It's an awful feeling when you're not being true to yourself or true to, or true to others. And I actually think you end up, potentially, I felt that you can end up sort of insulting other people because I felt probably he might have suspected or he might have thought, and it's same with other people and therefore you're actually not being very respectful to them if you continue hiding things. That's, that's, that's what I felt. Um, but I think it's. If I understand a lot of people are very often feeling, I don't want to say the wrong thing, therefore I'm not going to say anything or set up a series of questions or, uh, an environment that, that hopefully will enable the individual, that their, their colleague that they're, they know potentially has got something that they're hiding to feel open about. What I would say is don't worry about saying the wrong thing. You, uh, you can't say the wrong thing unless you absolutely go out to say the wrong thing. As in, oh my God, I can't believe that you're gay. That's appalling. I mean, that would not be a great reaction. But if, if you. So, but people can worry about not potentially using the right terminology or using a term that somebody might find offensive. And what I would say is the worst thing you can do is do nothing. That's what I would say. And don't worry about getting it wrong because any, for want of a better term, minority group would much prefer people to open up and want a conversation or, uh, somebody's hiding an issue versus feeling that somebody just isn't interested and therefore it's not important to find out what really is behind them.

Speaker C: I mean, I've definitely seen that happen. Uh, I've seen leaders be very nervous about that and I've also seen them be very nervous about even asking how people are because what if, what if they can't take what comes back? You know, what if someone's really honest about how they are? And how they are is awful. You know, they've got mental health issues or they've got a lot of stuff going on at home. And I know that leaders can be really scared of, um, not being able to handle that. And, and I think, you know, my, my, my advice, I guess in those situations is, I mean obviously everything you've said in terms of you can't really get this role unless you are hugely negatively, unless you're negatively judgmental about it.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: So no one's expecting you to be the expert, so expecting you to be the therapist. No one is expecting you to have your head around all the issues. So actually it's about listening and empathizing and um, and um, kind uh, of being there without necessarily having to solve anything for them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How can we fix, I'm supposed to fix this, you know, you know, you, you just listen and you support and you ask how, how is that for you? And what do you need from me? And ah, how can I support you? It just a conversation as opposed to. Right, I get it. Right. This is what I can do. Because you don't know, you don't know what people need. Yeah. Ah, yeah.

Speaker B: I think it's a very good point. I think too often as leaders, one feels that they've got to have the answer and they've got to have the solution. And if they haven't got the answer or the solution, then it's, then it's, it's, it goes into the too difficult box and it's best to ignore it. And, and you're right, that is not, that's not the situation whatsoever. And I think the other thing is that's so again different in, in today's worlds of leadership versus when I'm going back to the early 90s, is that actually all it was is task, task, task. There was in fact, you know, it's leave yourself at home when you come to work and whatever goes on at uh, home is separate now in some ways to me, going through what I was going through at the time, it was quite good that people didn't ask you a lot about your personal life and just focused on work. But actually, as we all know, it's it's just again, you just get so much more of the best out of people. If at uh, the start of every, every meeting is how is everybody today? How are we all today? And genuinely, as opposed to just not really wanting to know the answer.

Speaker C: You've recently been recognized, haven't you? Have you talked too much about this mv? Well, yes, about it. But uh, but I'm, I'm curious about what it means to you because it was a massive surprise. You didn't know that, that anybody would particularly have recognized you in this way, but it was for your work in, in this area. So what does it mean to you to, to have the recognition and particularly for this work?

Speaker B: Wow. Well, first of all, it was just never ever even on my radar at all. So it was a complete and utter, um, surprise, genuine surprise. I'd never considered it because what I do now in the work and the time in focusing and working with individuals, um, and leaders and businesses on looking at their diversity and inclusion work and genuinely how the, what they do want to change or improve on or, or start on the journey, um, because a lot of companies don't know where to start. I, I do because I love it. And the work that I did when I was at Royal Caribbean Group, very much supported by an incredible leadership team as well, um, was, was sort of came naturally to me. You know, looking at how we genuinely look at the, the work that we do with the LGBT community on board the ships, in the offices, the, the women on the bridge. So we went from 3% to 32% female officers on the bridge, which was a significant change in a very marine, is a very male dominated world that I want to say that was a big support from our male allies. I mean that's allyship to me is critical in every, every change. Allies have to genuinely be there as well. So to be recognised in the King's Honours, uh, for my work for diversity inclusion in the travel industry with an MBE was inconceivable to me. Absolutely inconceivable. Um, and I still have to pinch myself really to uh, believe it. So it's wonderful, it's fabulous. It drives me on, encourages me to do more and more. Um, and uh, and that's what I want to do and that's what I am doing. But it was a very, very special moment and I, uh, haven't yet been. So I'm yet to go to either Windsor or Buckpow, which would be wonderful. Um, and it means an awful lot. But more importantly it is about teamwork. And everybody together. There's been so many. I've had so much support in my career throughout the years, uh, a lot of it from a lot of male bosses that I've had, um, as well as female colleagues as well. But as I said, allyship to me is absolutely critical in any walk of life. And I don't think people can underestimate that.

Speaker C: Hm. What makes someone a really good ally?

Speaker B: I think empathy is massive. Being genuine is significant and wanting to take the time to understand differences. So as an example, when we set up the lgt lg, see it's difficult for me to say LGBTQ network at Royal Caribbean, we had executive sponsors for each of the network groups. And the executive sponsor, uh, for that group was a very straight white male. And it was fabulous because he was so open to learning. He didn't have a lot of gay friends, but he genuinely wanted to learn. And the power then of him then talking to lots of other white straight males in the organization of how much he was getting from being involved in the group is significant. So, uh, I think it takes empathy. It takes genuinely wanting to listen and learn and to understand differences as opposed to what I know is the right way or what I know is the only way.

Speaker C: I mean, it occurs to me that if you can't or won't do that in that context, you're probably not doing that in a lot of other contexts. And therefore, what kind of leader are you? You know, if you, if you're not somebody who is. I, uh, know there are people in senior positions who are not open to learning and listening. But, but uh, today, if you're not in those senior positions and willing to learn and refine your view and to change your perspective and to really listen to people, then how are you leading anything? Diversity.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker C: So, you know, I said before that I, I, I mean, I'm struggling to think of somebody who is so obviously themselves more than you. I mean, when we spent some time together. It was last year, wasn't it?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Met in Greece, uh, Ah, the ABTA convention. Um, and I just, I mean your, your energy and your people might not know, but you. So I did a little 20 minutes, um, and then we had a sort of chat and on the stage and we took audience questions and all of that and you facilitated that, but you walked on stage with this pink and I'm not sure how many people could have got away with that other than without undermining their credibility. And somehow it just seemed to completely reinfor your Credibility and your brand. I don't know how you did it. Um, how, how have you, you know, you dipped your toe in the water with coming out to your, to your colleague, then you, you increasingly embraced who you are, uh, and, and then advocated for others. How, how can we, it's a big question I'm about to ask. How can we go on that journey ourselves towards really accepting and embracing all the, all the stuff about ourselves that makes us different? Because I think regardless of whether you're gay or straight, regardless of. I think there is a temptation to want to be the same. It's safer to be the same.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: But exactly as you're saying, firstly, bad for the organization, then be bad for ourselves, to be masking ourselves and hiding ourselves. And we talk about mental health. It uh, cannot be helping with that. So how can people be this more true version of themselves as you have done?

Speaker B: Well, I think uh, one of the sort of ethos is that I follow is get comfortable being uncomfortable. And, and I, I really do think in whatever you do to stretch yourself, to keep learning, you need to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Because if you're feeling very comfortable in your life, in, in your work life, let's say, I mean you can apply this, I think, to, to everything in life, then the reality is you, you just stay, you go with the status quo. Everything I think becomes a bit vanilla. Um, and yeah, I mean it's, it's a safe route to take. But uh, is how fulfilling is it? How fulfilling is it? And I think if you, if you push yourself, and that's why I've always got that in the back of my head. So my, my, the next thing in getting comfortable, being uncomfortable potentially is looking at doing standup, which is. Terrifies the living daylights out of me, but also excites me as well. So. But that would be push, you know, that would be another thing to push myself out of my comfort zone. I think. Uh, so I think that's something. I think the other thing is, is that you need to, it comes back to, again to finding people that you feel that you can trust and that you can talk things through with and you can say, you know, what if I did this? Or uh, what this is how I'm feeling. And you know that you can have a good discussion, that they can help you in trying to find a road out, but I think if you've got to really push the boundaries, get comfortable being uncomfortable and be curious. Be curious and be genuinely interested. And if you do that, you just. The world Opens up in so many different ways. And by meeting different people with different thoughts and different mindsets, I just find it so energizing. So energizing.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: This is staying in our swimming, in our lane, staying in our stream, not questioning things, not, you know, this stand up and stand out to me is so important. And that the, the phrase of the Holocaust survivor that when I was on national, uh, Holocaust Survival Day, when she said, you know, the opposite of love isn't ha. It's indifference. And there's too much indifference in the world at the moment. Too much indifference, not enough of people speaking out, standing up, either for themselves or for other people. And I think that's really important.

Speaker C: One of the things you said about the. The boss that you told about, about your sexuality was that he had already shared some things about himself and I. There's a famous Marianne Williamson quote about, you know, by. By being yourself, you give other people permission. By shining your light, you give them permission to shine theirs. And I think when we, when we play small or we hide who we are, um, um, then how can other people. It's a much bigger risk for other people to. To reveal themselves when we are willing. And that's one of the maybe responsibilities that comes with seniority in the organization, but also seniority in age. You have a little bit fewer Fs to give, and so you are more willing to reveal your weirdness.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And what makes you different and what some people might not like, and you might not even like it about yourself. I mean, there are things about myself that I don't particularly like. Um, and I do my best to not have those things impact other people negatively, but I also have to accept, well, listen, you know, for some reason I do that, uh, I admire people that don't. I mean, for. For instance, uh, if I'm in a workshop and the, uh, facilitator asks a question, I'm going to dive straight in there to answer. And I have to really stop myself sometimes to let other people have a go. And that's not because I think my ideas are best. It's just I'm excited by the conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I want to get in. So I'm not saying you don't moderate, Evan, but you also have to accept, um, I have a quality that's, you know, maybe not ideal.

Speaker B: You're right. I'm very similar, by the way. And, you know, it comes back to making sure that everybody gets a chance to speak. And you generally include those who are less likely to speak up, uh, first and Sound very similar to that as well. Yes, you're right. We've all got those, those qualities, um, and those differences, um, which was where it comes in again to making sure that you've got different people around you. Um, and you know, I wasn't at the front of the queue when God gave out patience. And um, that's something. There are times when I think, oh, God damn it. You know, engage brain before mouth. You know, I didn't, that didn't come out well. That didn't come across well. Or it came across quite forcefully so that you're right, we've all got those characters. And I think it's important to. I definitely think as I've, you know, as I've got older, I've become a better leader, um, and become a more considerate leader. You know, I, I could be quite forceful and I know that can have a negative impact on people. Um, I was always self. Aware. I think that's important is being self aware. And also then I, I've, I've, I've always, I've liked it when people have said, joe, that wasn't great. You know, that didn't make so and so feel great. I wasn't somebody that sort of said, I, that really mattered to me. And I knew it, by the way. I'd have known it myself. But it was important to me that some of my, uh, you know, team members can say that wasn't great, Joe. Um, because we all have, have things that foibles that, that as you said, we all have strengths and, and development areas. Right. And we continue to have those and continues to. Working on those I think is really important, really do.

Speaker C: But I guess also when you play small, you don't know. So I've worked with groups, for instance, where they're worried about being too honest or too, um, too open. And I, I've said you've got so far to go from where you are now to the point of being too much. That actually, I think, you know, let it come out. I will let you know when you go over the line, but so far away from that that the risk is really minimal. And what might feel like massively brave to them is actually really quite a small step in terms of what we would really love to see from them. So I, you know, I always encourage people, listen, sometimes you'll go too far. Same things happened to me, by the way, Joe, where I, I, I stepped in and took over, uh, a group activity at something that I was in. And afterwards one of the guys in our Group said I didn't like. I didn't like that what you did. That's devastating. And I. I knew I was doing it. And for some reason just in my enthusiasm m. And my kind of. I've got this. I'm the right person to do this. And I think about that frequently. It was, it was so important. It was so awful when he said it. It was so important for him to say it. But equally, it's only by slightly going too far that you know where to. Where too far is. Yeah. Are you going to know?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: So. So what's next for you? What does the future hold?

Speaker B: Wow. What does the future hold? Well, the joy of. So I set up Joe volution. So after 40 wonderful years in corporate life, in the travel industry, again, I really got comfortable being uncomfortable. I made a decision on my own. Uh, well, on my own with my partner Lynn, in discussions with Lynn that actually, actually I was. I've had a great time. I've probably stayed for one too many, possibly two too many. But I didn't want to be paralytic and carried out of corporate life, which happens to everybody if you stay too long. Um, and I want to now not be under that constant pressure, trading pressure, commercial pressure that I've been under for 40 years. And I wanted to do different things and throw myself get comfortable being uncomfortable. Comfortable. So I chose to resign. Um, which means you go without a payoff after, you know, and uh, because that's what I wanted to do and I. But I always said I'm going to evolve. I'm not retiring. Because people said, oh, you're retiring? I am not retiring. The R word is an absolute anathema to me. I said I'm evolving. And from that Joe Volution was born. And Joe Volution inspiring change. Really focusing in, on working, as I said, coaching and mentoring, working with individuals, working with organizer organizations on lots of different areas. I help them on their commercial strategies. I've got a lovely program that I run, uh, to help them in looking through complex situations which could be a big project or whatever, but then also very much having people at the core of it. So focusing on the three Ps, what's your purpose? What's there for? Who are the right people? And that generates greater profit. And that's a key, A, ah, key area for me, which I'm loving. I also do a lot of conference moderating and speaking, which I love. Um, and conference moderating is my biggest, biggest love. I really enjoy that and getting the best out of people on Stage, um, throwing in a bit of humor every now and again. Um, and then I've got non. Exactly a director role for Hayes Travel, which is the largest independent travel business in the uk, working with Dame Irene Hayes and the board, which is phenomenal business, absolutely phenomenal. Um, and they've just acquired a company called Victoria Travel. Um, and I'm also going to go on the board as a non exec, uh, for that. So I've got lots of different things going on. Um, I'm enjoying making sure that I have the balance for those different, all three different projects. And then my big personal project is writing my parents story. Um, and I'm doing that with an author friend of mine. So it's a collaboration. Um, she's known, we studied together, she knew my parents well. She's published 20 books. And we're in the final stages of getting ready to hopefully next spring to launch the book.

Speaker C: I, I know you've been working on that. I can't wait to read it. When you give me little tidbits of what you've been discovering, it's just such an incredible story.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And of course travel is still important to you. We're friends on socials and you go to some very interesting places.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, the other thing is definitely making sure that Lynn and I, um, do have more time. And I do. Even though I'm doing a lot, I'm doing a lot more different things. You know, when you've got one big job, you've got one big job that is very pressurized and very busy, but when you're balancing lots of different jobs, it's even more complex in some ways. But I'm not in meetings all day. I don't get 300 emails a day and I'm not on the phone three nights out of five to the US or first thing in the morning to Australia or Asia or whatever. So, um, you know, so from that point of view, you do have more time. You do have more time. So I miss team because I love team, but I'm getting team in lots of different variety, lots of different ways. Uh, and I'm still very much in touch, uh, with colleagues throughout the years. You know, of so many people throughout my. You probably saw that when you were at ABSA convention. A lot of people I've known have become really good friends personally in life. And uh, that's important to me. Very important to me as well.

Speaker C: Well, thank you so much. I mean, that's been a great conversation. So many such a rich life and, ah, so many great experiences that now can inspire others. So thank you for talking to me today.

Speaker B: Thank you, Blair. I've really enjoyed it. It's lovely to see you again. I wish you all the best and we'll catch up soon in person.

Speaker A: Well, I absolutely loved that conversation with Jo. She is somebody who, as I said in, in our conversation, I can't imagine a person, if I think amongst all the people that I know, I can't imagine anyone who is more themselves than Jo. But, you know, she's still working on it. She's still trying, as you heard there, she's pushing herself outside of her comfort zone still to embrace stand up comedy. Uh, this is a person who just never stops trying to challenge herself and see what, what lies underneath her skin, who she really is at core. I hope you found this season inspirational. I would really encourage you to share the whole season or individual interviews that you found inspiring with anybody that you think will find it useful and to have these conversations in your own organization. If you want to have any of these conversations with me and see how I might be able to help you and your organization to create an environment where the humans can thrive and do their very best work in service of your organization's purpose, then just get in touch. I'd love to hear from you. I will be back with another season of the show in the next few months, but for now, take care and see you soon.

Speaker B: Sa.