How HR Leaders Turn AI Into Workforce Strategy with Ray Culver, Global MD of Talint Partners

1 - > SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to another episode of the HR 2 - > Community Podcast. 3 - > Today I'm joined with Ray Culver. 4 - > Ray is the managing director, global managing director for 5 - > talent partners. 6 - > Good morning, Ray.

7 - > Hey Shane, how are you? 8 - > Very good. 9 - > How are you doing? 10 - > You're zooming in, you're joining in from the US.

11 - > SPEAKER_00: I am. 12 - > Yep. 13 - > I live in Southern California. 14 - > So it is afternoon for me and morning for you.

15 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for joining us, and I appreciate you 16 - > being kind in our time zone over here in Australia. 17 - > Ray and I have known each other quite some time, particularly in 18 - > the talent acquisition circles. 19 - > For myself, it's been more Australia and Asia Pacific. 20 - > You are the global talent acquisition advocate.

21 - > You've traveled the world for many, many years. 22 - > You've hosted rooms of talent leaders, workshops with talent 23 - > leaders. 24 - > You've been online and on webinars. 25 - > You've worked in the industry yourself on the front line of 26 - > talent for many, many years to where you are now as the global 27 - > MD of talent partners.

28 - > Over to you, Ray. 29 - > I'd love to hear a little bit more about you and your journey 30 - > and your role. 31 - > And that'd be great to sort of unpack a little bit. 32 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'd be great.

33 - > Thank you. 34 - > You know, I started my career, gosh, 30 plus years ago. 35 - > When I say that out loud, it makes you just feel old. 36 - > 30 plus years ago with Ronstadt when they very first entered the 37 - > US market.

38 - > Was in the staffing recruitment industry for probably about a, 39 - > I'd say, 25, 30 years, and then pivoted a bit, went into my own 40 - > consultancy and advisory firm, and then have been working with 41 - > talent partners for the last four to four and a half years. 42 - > As you mentioned, you know, getting to interact with and 43 - > host events and talk to global talent leaders across the world 44 - > has been just an incredible experience. 45 - > Here in the U.S.

, we have a very, very strong TAHR 46 - > contingent workforce community. 47 - > We also have equally as strong communities in the UK and 48 - > mainland Europe. 49 - > And then, of course, we've built what I think to be a very strong 50 - > community down in the APAC region. 51 - > It's exciting to get to have these conversations across the 52 - > world and to get to draw parallels.

53 - > You know, no matter what market you're in. 54 - > And I think you've probably heard me say this before. 55 - > The topics are the same no matter where you are in the 56 - > world. 57 - > There's different nuances dependent upon the city and the 58 - > country, but the topics are the same.

59 - > Everybody's thinking about the same thing. 60 - > So, you know, what we always tell people at workshops or 61 - > dinners is if it's on your mind, let's talk about it. 62 - > Because if you're thinking it, I guarantee you there are probably 63 - > another five people in this room who are thinking the exact same 64 - > thing. 65 - > So it's just it's been interesting to get to hear it 66 - > across the world.

67 - > SPEAKER_01: Amazing. 68 - > What is on the mind of talent leaders across the globe right 69 - > now? 70 - > You know, what are you seeing from a HR and workforce strategy 71 - > perspective right now that, you know, maybe feels different over 72 - > the last 18 months? 73 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

74 - > You know, I hate to open this box this early in our 75 - > conversation. 76 - > It's going to happen, but I'll go ahead and open open the box 77 - > and let those two letters out that just can't stay in the box, 78 - > no matter what conversation you're having. 79 - > AI. 80 - > That is such a big conversation, such a multi-layered and 81 - > multi-pronged conversation when it comes to talent leaders.

82 - > I would say probably 12 to 18 months ago, there was a bit more 83 - > hesitation, and I hate to say fear, but a bit more hesitation 84 - > around AI. 85 - > Fast forward to today, uh, we hosted a workshop in San 86 - > Francisco a few weeks back. 87 - > That hesitation or fear is not really there. 88 - > It's more like, okay, what can we do?

89 - > Like, how can we use it? 90 - > How can we know there is the excitement? 91 - > And so it's been interesting to watch the journey of the TA and 92 - > HR leader to go from being very hesitant about AI to now being 93 - > excited about it and trying to figure out, okay, how can we use 94 - > it? 95 - > How can we embrace it?

96 - > You know, how can it make our teams better? 97 - > How can it help me as a leader to really step into that 98 - > strategic seat at the table that leaders have been asking for for 99 - > years now? 100 - > So it's been exciting to see that conversation pivot from one 101 - > of a hesitation to now. 102 - > Exciting.

103 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 104 - > And I'd agree with that because I've been speaking to a lot of 105 - > talent leaders across Australia, Singapore, and you know, AIPAC 106 - > in general. 107 - > And it's been quite a similar theme. 108 - > You know, if we had this podcast 18 months ago or two years ago, 109 - > we'd still be talking about AI, but probably not as evolved as 110 - > we can now.

111 - > Back then, dare I say, there were still a few pessimistic 112 - > views on AI. 113 - > Is this a phase? 114 - > You know, will will we just move on like humans tend to do to the 115 - > next shiny thing? 116 - > But it's it's very clear that it has continued to evolve, and a 117 - > lot of organizations have actually become quite aggressive 118 - > in their evolution and adoption of AI.

119 - > The area, I guess, where I still seem to be having conversations 120 - > with my community is when does AI stop being a tool and be, I 121 - > suppose, becomes more of a this is how we we work now as a 122 - > business. 123 - > SPEAKER_00: I think, I mean, when you think about that, the 124 - > first thing for me that comes to mind is as companies are 125 - > adopting these AI tools and solutions and things like that, 126 - > like really trying to figure out what exactly is it that they 127 - > want to do with it.

128 - > And then, you know, once you figure out what you want to do 129 - > with it or what you think it can do for your teams and your 130 - > organizations, and then once you go through the process, you 131 - > identify the solutions, things like that, then really look at 132 - > it and say, okay, how could we redesign our workforce? 133 - > You know, how could AI help our workforce? 134 - > How could it create maybe new positions within the 135 - > organization? 136 - > How could it potentially, and I know this is not a happy topic, 137 - > but you know, are there positions that now you know AI 138 - > can step up and maybe do that we don't need a particular employee 139 - > for?

140 - > Again, that's not a happy topic, but it is something that I think 141 - > we're having to address and be realistic about. 142 - > So I think that's been exciting to watch. 143 - > Okay, once you adopt AI, once you figure out how can it work 144 - > within your organization, then take a step back and try and 145 - > figure out, okay, do we need to do any kind of redesign to the 146 - > workforce that we have today? 147 - > How can we begin to leverage what it can do for us as we 148 - > start to look at workforce planning for the future?

149 - > And I think that's important as well. 150 - > Yeah, I think there's a whole component around like AI 151 - > readiness. 152 - > Are your internal teams really ready for it? 153 - > How to use it, how to embrace it?

154 - > And then as you look to like, say, workforce planning and 155 - > you're starting to bring people into the organization, what does 156 - > AI readiness mean to you as an organization? 157 - > And how are you making sure that whatever talent you're bringing 158 - > in is at the level of AI usage and just education that you are 159 - > as a company? 160 - > That's interesting as well. 161 - > SPEAKER_01: Love that.

162 - > We actually have been seeing more of AI literacy and AI 163 - > fluency becoming part of the job brief with more of our senior HR 164 - > leadership roles, sitting down with the CEO and understanding, 165 - > you know, what skills they're looking for right now for this 166 - > role, but also sort of mapping out where this role or where the 167 - > function needs to be from a HR and talent perspective in the 168 - > next two years. 169 - > Quite interesting, especially over the last six to 12 months.

170 - > CEOs are now bringing AI more and more into that conversation, 171 - > which I find is really interesting, but also quite 172 - > exciting for HR. 173 - > I think it's a great opportunity now to be the advocate for AI, 174 - > be the driver for AI in an organization. 175 - > But I also think it's becoming a bit of an expectation now that 176 - > these leaders are going to come into the business with an AI 177 - > strategy, essentially, as to what this function is going to 178 - > look like, what this team's gonna look like, what are the 179 - > roles and the skills that we require, you know, to be the 180 - > best that we can be with within the HR and talent function.

181 - > And then that scope goes out to all the other business areas, 182 - > whether it be IT or finance, et cetera. 183 - > So I've definitely seen that coming up in conversations more 184 - > and more as well. 185 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 186 - > And I think, I mean, if a leader comes into a company and maybe 187 - > they aren't quite as well versed in, you know, AI and what's out 188 - > there and that type of thing, I think also just the whole thing 189 - > of don't be afraid.

190 - > You know what I mean? 191 - > Like be curious and be curious about what's out there. 192 - > Don't be closed off from what it can potentially do. 193 - > Again, I go back to the not happy conversation.

194 - > There are going to be positions and situations within 195 - > organizations that it will reduce some jobs. 196 - > But I'd argue this counterpoint that it will also create jobs. 197 - > I also think that, especially here in the US, you hear a lot 198 - > of conversations around layoffs here, layoffs there, reduction 199 - > in force. 200 - > This is my opinion.

201 - > They say AI. 202 - > In my opinion, it is too early in the AI journey to be fully 203 - > laying these reduction in forces on AI. 204 - > To me, that is that's an excuse that companies are using today 205 - > to be able to kind of say, oh, what's AI? 206 - > I I would call a bluff on that.

207 - > I just thought it's a cursed word. 208 - > I would call a bluff on that because I just I don't think 209 - > that all these reduction enforces that we're seeing are 210 - > AI driven. 211 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 212 - > SPEAKER_00: I say that because when you hear a big company is 213 - > laying off five, 10,000 people and they blame it on AI, that 214 - > creates fear and hesitancy in leaders and in workforces.

215 - > So, you know, we just got to figure out a way to get around 216 - > that. 217 - > SPEAKER_01: We spoke a little bit about this a few months ago 218 - > at an event. 219 - > I'm going to hazard a guess and say it was Singapore. 220 - > It was quite interesting because when we actually started to look 221 - > at it, a lot of things come in cycles, right?

222 - > So six years ago would be, you know, officially, unofficially, 223 - > the pandemic. 224 - > So a lot of organizations then went through this huge mass 225 - > restructure. 226 - > There was mass redundancies, talent acquisition was on its 227 - > knees. 228 - > And then, you know, the year or two following, the market 229 - > rebalanced, and a lot of organizations back then were 230 - > running around in circles, wondering how can we get more 231 - > talent people to deal with the volume of recruitment that they 232 - > were going through.

233 - > And similarly with HR as well. 234 - > So I do find the conversation around AI replacing jobs at mass 235 - > quite interesting because I do feel like this could be an 236 - > excuse, but also that same cycle again where, hey, let's just use 237 - > AI here as this reason why we can restructure a thousand 238 - > people globally. 239 - > In reality, where our PL isn't looking very good. 240 - > So we need to cut costs.

241 - > The rebuilding phase in the next year or two is probably where I 242 - > have most of my interest because I wonder will that rebuilding 243 - > phase not just be humans? 244 - > Will it actually be humans, agents, bots? 245 - > Yeah. 246 - > SPEAKER_00: George that's I mean, like kind of when you 247 - > start to talk about stuff like that, and you start to talk 248 - > about a leader within an organization not only having to 249 - > manage a team of humans, but also a team of agents.

250 - > You know, we we started talking about that. 251 - > I think it was at a workshop either that was probably late 252 - > last year, because we're only in May. 253 - > Late last year is in the US, I think we're in New York, I don't 254 - > know. 255 - > But we started talking about it.

256 - > We're like, you know what? 257 - > Can you in the audience, this was global TA feeders, can you 258 - > imagine a future of UB and having to manage humans and 259 - > agents? 260 - > And that little emoji with like an exploding head, you can just 261 - > see some of them being like, I've never thought about that. 262 - > Yeah, like that was just such an aha moment for people.

263 - > And it is a cool thought to think that in the future, not 264 - > too far away, happening now in some companies, you have your 265 - > human team, you have your agent team, and you know, they work in 266 - > harmony. 267 - > Yeah, you know, and they kind of work with each other. 268 - > So the future is it's coming. 269 - > It's coming.

270 - > SPEAKER_01: The ideal scenario where the leader is very AI 271 - > fluent, and the bots and the agents of the humans are all 272 - > working together in harmony. 273 - > It could be a little bit different in reality. 274 - > I mean, what are your thoughts, Ray, on I guess, leadership 275 - > capability for an organization like that or you know, the 276 - > future of what that's going to look like? 277 - > Because I'm I'm sure that will change how leaders lead.

278 - > It'll also introduce new new skills that leaders will need 279 - > and maybe hold hone on essential skills that they may or may not 280 - > have now. 281 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it goes back to what you mentioned 282 - > a few minutes ago. 283 - > You know, leaders either within an organization or coming into 284 - > an organization, needing to have either fluency or true 285 - > understanding and not be afraid of AI and agenda, things like 286 - > that. 287 - > And if the leader is not at the level where they can do it or 288 - > they feel comfortable, how are organizations helping to get 289 - > that leader to that state if that is a route that the 290 - > organization wants to go?

291 - > You know, or do you look at bringing in someone who maybe 292 - > layers underneath, let's say a global head of TA, layers 293 - > underneath them who basically is the, I'm not gonna make this up, 294 - > but you know, the the bot owner or the bot leader or whatever it 295 - > is. 296 - > Do you do you bring someone in who that is their specialty, 297 - > that is their skill set? 298 - > And to that point, is that a new job that we just created? 299 - > You know, a bot leader who comes in and they're like just the the 300 - > knower of all when it comes to AI and agents and workforces.

301 - > You know, that could be a whole new way, path for people to go 302 - > who maybe let's say you grew up in the static industry, you grew 303 - > up and now you're shifting, you're learning about AI and a 304 - > gen tick. 305 - > That could be a new path for you. 306 - > Come into an organization, come into the in-house side and run 307 - > you know this agent farm that we have. 308 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

309 - > SPEAKER_00: That's cool to think about stuff like that. 310 - > Yes, it can be scary, but I very much believe in kind of the cup 311 - > half full versus half empty. 312 - > Yeah. 313 - > So I think it's gonna be cool.

314 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I agree. 315 - > I mean, look, I'm a huge advocate for it, as you know, 316 - > and I always have been with stuff like this. 317 - > Like I've always really loved technology way back when my dad 318 - > worked at digital, which became Huey Packard, and it might even 319 - > be called something else now. 320 - > I can't recall.

321 - > But I remember in our household being a kid and seeing like the 322 - > first or one of the earlier laptops, and it was it was a 323 - > block. 324 - > And then, you know, seeing seeing the different laptops and 325 - > desktops and stuff evolved since then, but it was always a cool 326 - > thing. 327 - > I mean, our ASIC was just full of this stuff. 328 - > I think dad ended up donating it to a to a museum in recent 329 - > years.

330 - > So I've always sort of personally been a huge fan of 331 - > technology. 332 - > So, you know, four or five years ago when when we started this 333 - > business, we were a strategy first business. 334 - > We are a strategy first business with a lot of investment in how 335 - > technology can enable us to be better. 336 - > We sort of scale that way.

337 - > So in our business now, and we started our journey in recent 338 - > years with Claude, and in particular, Cloud Code has been 339 - > a game changer for us. 340 - > But you know, we've got a number of different tools that we use 341 - > across the business. 342 - > But Claude Code is essentially our core agent, and the agent 343 - > has multiple subagents that manage different tasks for us. 344 - > So, for example, if you look at an executive search, all the 345 - > different layers of that search from you know, before you put in 346 - > a proposal through to getting the brief right, through to the 347 - > going to market, the engagement, the sourcing, the screening, the 348 - > testing, that whole process has so much opportunity for AI to 349 - > work in the background.

350 - > And I think what I've found really cool is as our agents 351 - > have evolved, and so have our sub agents too. 352 - > So, you know, you talk about a bot manager, it's essentially 353 - > like we're giving the agent manager the task that we need, 354 - > and then it's filtering out to the different subagents what 355 - > tasks they specialize in. 356 - > So that's been pretty, pretty cool for us across the business, 357 - > not just the recruitment operations. 358 - > So I am a huge advocate for it.

359 - > Now, we had the luxury, I must add, where we started our 360 - > business five years ago, we started from a clean slate. 361 - > Businesses that are a lot larger, enterprise global 362 - > businesses, highly regulated businesses. 363 - > What kind of challenges do you see, or what kind of challenges 364 - > are you hearing from them, Ray, from a from an AI perspective? 365 - > SPEAKER_00: Some of the biggest things that we hear, and this 366 - > is, and we do hear this from you know large global enterprise 367 - > organizations, is that their initial blockers, I'm not saying 368 - > that that they are true blockers, but their initial kind 369 - > of gears up coming into the company with, let's say, an AI 370 - > tool is legal.

371 - > And of course, risk compliance. 372 - > You know, and at the end of the day, your legal teams and your 373 - > risk teams are just trying to keep the organization protected. 374 - > So, I mean, you know, it's not let's parking like that. 375 - > We'll come back to where I think that needs to go.

376 - > But I think that's the biggest thing is that getting large 377 - > companies over the risk issue and the compliance issue and the 378 - > legality issue, to me, that's the biggest hurdle. 379 - > We have several members of our TA community here in the US here 380 - > with global companies, and let's say they have workday as their 381 - > their uh internal system, and they're wanting to turn on 382 - > certain aspects of workday, certain modules. 383 - > And you know, you would think okay, but their legal has that 384 - > absolutely not, just because of of some of the ways that it does 385 - > things.

386 - > And it's not, I think it's just that the legal just needs more 387 - > time to feel comfortable with it, you know. 388 - > So I think they'll get there. 389 - > But at least initially they're like, no, and this is a large, 390 - > you know, global tens of thousands of employee company, 391 - > and their legal is just like, no, just black out there. 392 - > And so that just shuts the global TA leader down because 393 - > she, you know, she or she just can't get past it.

394 - > To touch on that though, I think legal departments, risk 395 - > compliance departments, I think they've come to our point 396 - > earlier, they've come so far in the last 12 to 18 months. 397 - > Yeah. 398 - > Because you know, they they're they're they're you're starting 399 - > to see it come into more and more companies. 400 - > So the examples that I just gave, there are equally as many 401 - > examples of companies who their leadership has come along on 402 - > this journey.

403 - > Now they're starting to let things in, maybe even pilots. 404 - > Maybe it's not we're gonna deploy it across the entire 405 - > organization, but if you have an AI tool or solution who's 406 - > willing to pilot some things with us, we will do that, prove 407 - > it out, and then maybe move it across the bigger organization. 408 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that. 409 - > And and with the pilots, I guess talk to us a little bit about 410 - > that.

411 - > Like what have you what have you heard maybe or seen that that 412 - > works well? 413 - > Is it quite a structured stage-by-stage process, or is it 414 - > a little bit loose? 415 - > Let's let's have a crack at this for the next 90 days and and 416 - > sort of trial test error. 417 - > SPEAKER_00: What we see at least within our talent tech community 418 - > is there are a lot of solutions out there who are really leaning 419 - > into the whole pilot because they know that to get some 420 - > enterprise organizations on board, you're gonna have to kind 421 - > of bring them along.

422 - > You're gonna have to prove this out and prove that that it's it 423 - > can work and all that good stuff. 424 - > So I think that's part of the journey of the AI solutions is 425 - > that they're they're needing to lean a bit more into pilots and 426 - > they're starting to do that. 427 - > It's interesting when we talk to the TA side and they're starting 428 - > to talk about these pilots and do some of them internally. 429 - > You know, I think they're uh trying to identify issues within 430 - > the organization, and then they can bring these AI tools in to 431 - > solve those issues.

432 - > So again, identify it, bring it in, prove it out. 433 - > If it fails, fail fast. 434 - > You know what I mean? 435 - > Like say, okay, we know this could fail, we're gonna fail 436 - > fast, we're gonna move on.

437 - > But if it succeeds, then take that, build out the internal use 438 - > case, build out the internal white paper, and then just 439 - > replicate it. 440 - > Yeah. 441 - > You know what I mean? 442 - > Like because success is the best breeder of future success.

443 - > Yeah. 444 - > Show a success, and that's gonna create more success. 445 - > Yeah, so that's what we're seeing. 446 - > I mean, start small.

447 - > You had 10 departments within an organization, and you could run 448 - > small pilots and two to three of them, and each one has the 449 - > different nuances and that type of thing. 450 - > You know, you're proving out multiple things here and you're 451 - > doing it small. 452 - > You're not exposing the company to a lot of you know risk and 453 - > legal issues. 454 - > Of course, you have them on board with you, but just start 455 - > small and show success and then move bigger.

456 - > SPEAKER_01: I find it quite interesting as well. 457 - > Like we talk about pilots previous to that, we talked 458 - > about a lot of the risk and the compliance, a lot of the 459 - > barriers, a lot of the challenges. 460 - > One thing that I've noticed with some of the companies that we've 461 - > had in similar rooms and different rooms is HR and talent 462 - > leaders feel, or some HR and talent leaders feel their 463 - > organization is quite progressive with AI when it 464 - > comes to their their own products and their own services.

465 - > You know, we've We've seen this a lot in in medical and 466 - > healthcare, for example, among other industries technology, 467 - > obviously. 468 - > But then when it comes to the HR and talent side, there's there's 469 - > still a lot of blockheads or or or barriers up by the 470 - > organization. 471 - > And you know, something I find quite interesting is when I 472 - > speak to the organizations, which I know you do too, that 473 - > are a bit more progressive from a HR and AI perspective, you 474 - > know, they've been able to bring a case to the business with you 475 - > know actual ROI and actual data, how much this is actually going 476 - > to cost, but you know, the value that we're gonna get from it.

477 - > Do you see that happening as well in your world with 478 - > organizations that are that are doing it well? 479 - > Like there's a lot of ROI case, there's a lot of data and 480 - > metrics behind it. 481 - > SPEAKER_00: Yes, but I also think some of that. 482 - > And when we when I have a conversation with a TA leader 483 - > and we're talking about tech and we're talking about, you know, 484 - > maybe a problem that they're trying to solve or who should 485 - > they look at, and this is what they think.

486 - > My recommendation and suggestion to them is no matter what 487 - > solution you go with, make sure that the tech provider is 488 - > comfortable with maybe introducing you to clients of 489 - > theirs who are similar to you. 490 - > In other words, like let those clients help you to almost build 491 - > a case for maybe you know there's gonna be change 492 - > management, you know you have internal blockers, talk to a 493 - > similar company to you, who's a client who may be gone through 494 - > the same thing, ask them how they handled a lot of the things 495 - > that you know you're gonna come upon because you know your 496 - > company.

497 - > Like when I was with Manpower Group, God love Manpower Group, 498 - > yeah. 499 - > I guarantee you that when I gave my legal team a contract, it 500 - > would come back red. 501 - > I mean, red line to heck and back because that's just the way 502 - > that we were a very conservative organization. 503 - > Yeah.

504 - > So again, it's like talking to an MSP provider or talking to a 505 - > tech solution to say, okay, these are these is where I know 506 - > the blockers are gonna be. 507 - > Help me to understand how to talk to my legal team or my 508 - > compliance team or whatever about these things to get them 509 - > comfortable with it. 510 - > That's very important. 511 - > If a solution isn't open to doing that, that's one potential 512 - > kind of X from when it comes to a partnership.

513 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 514 - > SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna sign a contract with somebody, it 515 - > really needs to be a partnership. 516 - > And it needs to be both of you kind of wanting to make sure the 517 - > other is very successful. 518 - > Yeah, so that would be, I think that's what we hear.

519 - > SPEAKER_01: I think that's great as well, because there's so much 520 - > talk about AI now that you know, obviously a lot of 521 - > organizations, big, medium, and small, are starting coming out 522 - > of the woodwork with different solutions. 523 - > There's a lot of selling. 524 - > I get hit up daily with different vendors and and 525 - > businesses looking to automate our uh stuff as well. 526 - > Talk to us a little bit about the the future.

527 - > I mean, the last 18 months have been pretty fascinating, pretty 528 - > full on, but pretty exciting. 529 - > You know, what are you sort of seeing? 530 - > What do you what do you predict for the next next 18? 531 - > SPEAKER_00: You know, I think we will continue to talk about and 532 - > really start to deep dive on how does work get done?

533 - > So, like I mean, and it goes back to kind of the top of our 534 - > call. 535 - > When you look at a task within an organization, does it have to 536 - > be human? 537 - > Can it be a bot or an agent? 538 - > You know, how does it get done?

539 - > Does it need to be a mixture of both? 540 - > I think if you look at the staffing and recruitment 541 - > industry, they're having a lot of the, and you live this every 542 - > day, they're having a lot of these conversations right now 543 - > about how far can we take the agentic AI down the path of 544 - > recruitment before we have to insert a human. 545 - > So like I think that's good, you're gonna see those 546 - > conversations continue into the in-house side on the enterprise 547 - > side, and they're gonna continue.

548 - > So it's like, how does that work get done? 549 - > And then beyond that, just a bit, if it does need to be a 550 - > human, does it need to be a full-time person? 551 - > Can it be a contractor? 552 - > Can it be contingent?

553 - > Can it be gig? 554 - > Can it be fractional? 555 - > Can it be freelance? 556 - > Can that person sit if you're in Sydney?

557 - > Can that person sit in uh you know Poland? 558 - > All those conversations that are being had now. 559 - > But I think it's just the talent scarcity continues to get 560 - > tighter, but those conversations are going to continue to get 561 - > louder. 562 - > Also, you know, talent is choosing to work differently 563 - > these days than it ever has before.

564 - > Talent's choosing, and maybe you mentioned the pandemic, maybe 565 - > the pandemic kind of opened this box for everybody. 566 - > But it's like, you know what? 567 - > If I want to go and be a nomadic traveler, you know, I'm choosing 568 - > to do that. 569 - > And if you want me as an employee, you're gonna have to 570 - > meet me where I'm at.

571 - > And if you don't, that's cool because there's 10 other 572 - > companies who will. 573 - > I think all that's gonna continue to build and build and 574 - > build. 575 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I agree with both. 576 - > I feel like organizations, not all, but you know, some are just 577 - > not set up for today's talent market, and therefore a lot 578 - > still don't know how they're gonna approach the future talent 579 - > market and the future work.

580 - > You know, we've we've talked about this before, where you 581 - > look at build, borrow, buy, boss, there's another BS is not 582 - > coming to me. 583 - > So there's all these different ways of getting the skills in an 584 - > organization that you need, but you know, that just doesn't work 585 - > for organizations. 586 - > It works for the candidate and the talent market too. 587 - > You know, if you want to operate as a fractional chief people 588 - > officer in today's world, it can be quite a fulfilling and 589 - > lucrative role.

590 - > Um, 20 years ago probably didn't exist as much. 591 - > It did exist, but not as much. 592 - > Um we're seeing it more and more now as well. 593 - > I mean, international teams and remote teams is a very common 594 - > way for businesses to operate now.

595 - > I would say the only difference in our world is in organizations 596 - > where there is a lot more sort of frontline workforces like 597 - > construction, manufacturing, logistics, et cetera, like HORC 598 - > still sort of need that on-site relationship with their team. 599 - > So again, I guess it depends on there's no one size fits all. 600 - > I guess it it definitely depends on everything. 601 - > You know, we could see economies across the world.

602 - > I mean, not making it easy for businesses. 603 - > Do you see other countries and regions maybe using that as an 604 - > opportunity now to attract businesses and workers to their 605 - > region? 606 - > SPEAKER_00: The idea of kind of outsourcing or remote work or 607 - > whatever you want to call it these days, I don't think that's 608 - > going anywhere. 609 - > I think it's continuing to grow.

610 - > I think you you've seen over the years, you've seen those 611 - > outsourcing centers, we'll call it shift. 612 - > Obviously, I mean India, Philippines, you know, the South 613 - > Central America from a US perspective, because it's a near 614 - > story. 615 - > You know, when I was down in the APAC region last with you, and 616 - > we were talking to the folks, looking at like Singapore and 617 - > being having that being kind of that the gateway to Southeast 618 - > Asia, and I heard a lot of that from Australia leaders and 619 - > businesses who were looking to get into that because there are 620 - > there are more cost-effective labor markets who you can tap 621 - > into potentially.

622 - > Do they have the skills? 623 - > Do they have the the educational requirements? 624 - > I have no idea. 625 - > But it's being talked about and it is happening.

626 - > If you look at let's say Eastern Europe, probably pre-war, 627 - > because I think a lot of companies have pulled back a bit 628 - > just because of the uncertainty of the war right now with 629 - > Ukraine and Russia. 630 - > But if you look at that, there were some of the most I don't 631 - > say obscure, but just countries that you would never have 632 - > thought in a million years had incredible education, incredible 633 - > language because they saw the outsourcing boom happening and 634 - > they started to really react and be able to pull companies in.

635 - > So I think you're going to continue to see countries who 636 - > stand up, you know, education and language programs and things 637 - > like that to be able to attract companies. 638 - > Yeah, and you mentioned earlier kind of around the frontline 639 - > workforce. 640 - > When I was last with you down there a few months ago, one 641 - > thing that we talked about with one of the groups was talent, 642 - > younger talent leaving Australia. 643 - > Yes.

644 - > To maybe come to the US or to go to Europe. 645 - > And so how is Australia, New Zealand, how are you all keeping 646 - > the talent? 647 - > Like, you know, creating an environment where it's like, you 648 - > know what, you want to be here. 649 - > I think uh focusing on that front line and keeping that 650 - > talent internal on the front line is equally as important in 651 - > trying to keep this high-skilled talent, which you hear more 652 - > about.

653 - > And I think also that's gonna come to a head because you know, 654 - > you're gonna have to figure out you, us everywhere, is gonna 655 - > have to figure out how to really utilize the younger and the 656 - > talent coming into the market and keep it in Australia or keep 657 - > it in the US or keep it wherever. 658 - > That's also gonna be a big thing in the next 12 to 18 months. 659 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%. 660 - > I've seen some examples, particularly in that more 661 - > industrial, the industrial sectors, where it's not even 662 - > just about going to a university now to catch the the 663 - > pre-graduates.

664 - > It's not even about going to a high school to catch the 665 - > pre-territory, it's territory for education. 666 - > It's it's it's actually going into primary schools and you 667 - > know, some of these organizations spending a day 668 - > with these kids and talking about what they do and you know, 669 - > really just trying to, I guess, re-educate. 670 - > I mean, even from me leaving school, you know, there was a 671 - > huge push, and and I guess still is today, to go to university.

672 - > And, you know, for for generations, I know that went to 673 - > university, got degrees in things that they couldn't 674 - > actually get a job from. 675 - > So I'm just wondering now, as we enter this era of AI with the 676 - > possibility of a lot of, especially the more junior roles 677 - > being automated or replaced with AI, what are we going to do with 678 - > the youth entering the world of work? 679 - > And I think not that everyone needs to be a trade if they 680 - > don't want to, but I think those kind of roles where there is 681 - > still you know critical thinking, uh practical work, you 682 - > know, hands-on sort of labor, I think that's a lot of the stuff 683 - > that kids leaving school will will most likely pivot into now, 684 - > unless they continue into technology and become 685 - > 19-year-old multi-billionaire CEOs, which which which I know a 686 - > lot of them want to do, but I think you know the the the list 687 - > the list is long, but it's it's not as long as you think.

688 - > I know it's a busy day for your race, so I don't want to keep 689 - > you too much longer. 690 - > And I absolutely loved, as I always do, conversations like 691 - > this with you. 692 - > Before I close out, I wanted to maybe pick your brain on one 693 - > last question. 694 - > I mean, one piece of advice for hey, J oran talent leaders right 695 - > now.

696 - > SPEAKER_00: Be curious. 697 - > Like to me, now is the time to be curious and to really be, you 698 - > know, be open to the way that the world of talent or the 699 - > future could work or whatever you want to call it is changing. 700 - > I would also say, and this is gonna sound so cheesy, but I 701 - > mean to me it's so true, from a talent leader perspective, now 702 - > is the time for these leaders to really step into their 703 - > greatness. 704 - > They've talked about it for so many years.

705 - > They've talked about wanting to move away from just being that 706 - > transactional HR task taker or order taker to really being 707 - > strategic, having a seat at the table. 708 - > You have that opportunity right now. 709 - > Now is the time. 710 - > With everything happening in the world, with all the advancements 711 - > and things like that, now is your time.

712 - > And that's what I would say to them is just really figure out 713 - > how to take everything that's at your fingertips or everything 714 - > that's available to you and just bring it into the organization. 715 - > Don't be afraid of it. 716 - > Again, I'm happy subject. 717 - > There are gonna be some people who shops.

718 - > There's gonna be some roles that, but it's also gonna do 719 - > great things. 720 - > So just and again, cheesy as hell, but just step into that 721 - > greatness and just really be take advantage of the time that 722 - > we're at in the world that we live in right now. 723 - > SPEAKER_01: That's awesome. 724 - > Love that.

725 - > Very rare to see you in your home office because of all the 726 - > travel that you do. 727 - > When are you visiting us down under next? 728 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited. 729 - > June's gonna be a busy month.

730 - > Next week, I'll be in Atlanta to host our large conference and 731 - > Black Tie Gala for the U.S. 732 - > in Atlanta. 733 - > Next week I'll be at an event in Philadelphia.

734 - > I'm home for a week, and then I get to come back to Australia. 735 - > I'll be down, I think it's the last week of June, and we are 736 - > hosting our talent and transformation summit in 737 - > Melbourne on the 25th, and then we'll have our signature Black 738 - > Tie Gala that evening. 739 - > SPEAKER_01: Amazing. 740 - > Well, I will make sure to see you there.

741 - > Thank you again, Ray. 742 - > Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. 743 - > That was a great chat. 744 - > And thank you to all our listeners.

745 - > SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Shane. 746 - > I appreciate it.