Dave Thomas [Wendy’s]

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,238 Welcome to Headstones and Microphones Founder Stories where we use AI to step into 2 00:00:04,278 --> 00:00:08,792 the past through a researched, first-person simulation of history's most visionary 3 00:00:08,854 --> 00:00:09,870 founders. 4 00:00:10,130 --> 00:00:11,668 I am your host, Calvin. 5 00:00:11,828 --> 00:00:17,029 While we've added some creative storytelling, our goal is to inspire your own study 6 00:00:17,056 --> 00:00:18,312 of these trailblazers. 7 00:00:18,592 --> 00:00:20,554 Now, let's meet our guest. 8 00:00:20,778 --> 00:00:23,114 Dave Thomas, welcome to the show! 9 00:00:23,301 --> 00:00:26,552 It is an absolute honor to have you sitting across from me today. 10 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,880 Well, thank you so much, Calvin. 11 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,920 It's a real pleasure to be here, and I'm just so grateful and thankful for the 12 00:00:32,973 --> 00:00:35,879 opportunity to share my story with you and your listeners. 13 00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:40,917 I'm always happy to talk about hamburgers, hard work, and doing the right thing. 14 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,799 We are absolutely thrilled to dive into your journey. 15 00:00:44,079 --> 00:00:46,354 Let's start right at the beginning. 16 00:00:46,562 --> 00:00:51,066 When you first conceived of your business, the world was a very different place. 17 00:00:51,258 --> 00:00:56,341 What was the exact moment you realized society was moving in a direction only you 18 00:00:56,381 --> 00:00:59,861 could see, and how did you convince the early skeptics? 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,074 You know, back in the late 1960s, everyone was moving toward fast, 20 00:01:04,122 --> 00:01:05,752 mass-produced food. 21 00:01:05,792 --> 00:01:09,267 The big chains were pre-warming burgers, freezing their beef, 22 00:01:09,327 --> 00:01:11,989 and rushing everything through an assembly line. 23 00:01:12,029 --> 00:01:16,140 I looked around Columbus, Ohio, and realized I couldn't find a really good, 24 00:01:16,207 --> 00:01:18,222 juicy hamburger made the old-fashioned way. 25 00:01:18,622 --> 00:01:23,102 I knew people still wanted quality-fresh beef, custom toppings, 26 00:01:23,122 --> 00:01:26,865 and an atmosphere that felt like a real family restaurant, complete with carpeted 27 00:01:26,934 --> 00:01:28,547 floors and bentwood chairs. 28 00:01:28,638 --> 00:01:32,630 People thought I was crazy because the market was already flooded with giant burger 29 00:01:32,699 --> 00:01:33,273 chains. 30 00:01:33,413 --> 00:01:37,683 But I convinced the early skeptics simply by sticking to my guns and proving it on 31 00:01:37,703 --> 00:01:38,245 the plate. 32 00:01:38,405 --> 00:01:42,964 When they tasted a fresh, made-to-order hamburger that actually hung over the edge 33 00:01:42,991 --> 00:01:47,116 of a square bun, they realized quality wasn't outdated after all. 34 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,283 That focus on quality really changed the entire industry! 35 00:01:51,563 --> 00:01:56,723 But leaving behind safety to build something entirely unproven is a massive gamble. 36 00:01:56,995 --> 00:02:01,763 What did your life look like the day you decided to go all-in, 37 00:02:01,783 --> 00:02:05,447 and what was the core belief that gave you the courage to take that first step? 38 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,281 By 1969, I actually had a pretty comfortable life. 39 00:02:09,321 --> 00:02:12,717 I had already turned around those failing chicken franchises for my mentor, 40 00:02:12,749 --> 00:02:15,920 Phil Clauss, and made a good amount of money when we sold them back to Colonel 41 00:02:15,990 --> 00:02:16,560 Sanders. 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,959 I was a millionaire at thirty-five, married to my wonderful wife Lorraine, 43 00:02:20,979 --> 00:02:22,318 and we had our five kids. 44 00:02:22,598 --> 00:02:26,239 I could have retired or taken it easy, but I was a hamburger man at heart. 45 00:02:26,426 --> 00:02:30,241 My life the day I went all-in was full of a lot of nervous energy, 46 00:02:30,261 --> 00:02:33,843 but my core belief was simple: hard work is good for the soul, 47 00:02:33,883 --> 00:02:35,843 and you should never cut corners on quality. 48 00:02:35,955 --> 00:02:37,924 That came straight from my Grandma Minnie. 49 00:02:38,244 --> 00:02:41,279 I believed that if you treat people right and serve an honest, 50 00:02:41,329 --> 00:02:44,558 premium product, you can face any gamble with courage. 51 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,073 Your grandmother's wisdom clearly paved the way. 52 00:02:47,353 --> 00:02:52,753 Now, let's look at the absolute beginning, when you had no data, 53 00:02:52,833 --> 00:02:54,914 no capital, and no blueprint. 54 00:02:55,106 --> 00:03:00,194 What was the one truth you held onto that everyone else around you dismissed? 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,395 When I first got into the restaurant business as a boy, and even later when 56 00:03:05,435 --> 00:03:10,352 designing my own place, the one truth I held onto was that the customer always 57 00:03:10,405 --> 00:03:17,386 deserves your absolute best, and everything relies on what I call an "MBA"-a Mop 58 00:03:17,466 --> 00:03:18,826 Bucket Attitude. 59 00:03:18,917 --> 00:03:21,301 People in corporate offices laughed at that. 60 00:03:21,365 --> 00:03:24,657 They wanted formulas, blueprints, and data points. 61 00:03:24,721 --> 00:03:29,218 They dismissed the idea that a executive should know how to sweep the floors or 62 00:03:29,271 --> 00:03:30,334 clean the counters. 63 00:03:30,454 --> 00:03:34,649 But I knew that if you don't care about the cleanliness of your restaurant and the 64 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,967 respect you show to a customer, no amount of marketing data will save you. 65 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,559 A Mop Bucket Attitude-I love that! 66 00:03:42,789 --> 00:03:47,160 But long before your company became a household name, you hit a wall where 67 00:03:47,225 --> 00:03:48,994 everything nearly collapsed. 68 00:03:49,218 --> 00:03:54,672 Take us back to that first major failure-what went wrong, and how did you find the 69 00:03:54,736 --> 00:03:56,191 willpower to restart? 70 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,881 Well, before I ever started my own chain, my big trial by fire came when Phil Clauss 71 00:04:01,948 --> 00:04:07,399 asked me to take over four failing Kentucky Fried Chicken carryouts in Columbus. 72 00:04:07,479 --> 00:04:12,836 They were deeply in debt, bleeding money, and the menu was a total mess with over a 73 00:04:12,866 --> 00:04:13,558 hundred items. 74 00:04:13,665 --> 00:04:17,715 It was completely overwhelming, and it looked like a total failure in the making. 75 00:04:17,827 --> 00:04:21,957 Even Colonel Sanders himself was highly skeptical that anyone could turn them 76 00:04:22,026 --> 00:04:22,520 around. 77 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:27,566 I found the willpower to restart by rolling up my sleeves, trimming that massive 78 00:04:27,646 --> 00:04:31,879 menu down to just chicken and a few sides, and focusing on the basics. 79 00:04:32,039 --> 00:04:35,231 We worked morning to night, and we turned those stores around. 80 00:04:35,343 --> 00:04:39,071 That experience taught me everything I needed to know about handling a business 81 00:04:39,151 --> 00:04:39,791 crisis. 82 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,682 Talk about a high-stakes turnaround! 83 00:04:41,798 --> 00:04:45,114 Innovation often looks like madness to contemporaries, though. 84 00:04:45,294 --> 00:04:49,673 Was there a specific product, philosophy, or strategy you were utterly convinced 85 00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:52,871 would work, but the public initially rejected or ridiculed? 86 00:04:53,071 --> 00:04:54,631 How did you respond? 87 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,111 People definitely chuckled when they saw my square hamburgers! 88 00:04:58,191 --> 00:05:02,119 They asked why on earth a burger shouldn't be round like everyone else's. 89 00:05:02,399 --> 00:05:06,362 I told them point-blank: at my restaurant, we don't cut corners. 90 00:05:06,562 --> 00:05:10,285 I wanted the meat to hang over the bun so the customer could see the quality of the 91 00:05:10,338 --> 00:05:12,045 fresh beef they were paying for. 92 00:05:12,145 --> 00:05:16,529 Another big one was the modern drive-thru pick-up window with a separate speaker 93 00:05:16,598 --> 00:05:17,452 system. 94 00:05:17,515 --> 00:05:21,248 People thought it would confuse drivers or ruin the dining experience. 95 00:05:21,488 --> 00:05:24,775 I responded by just building it anyway and keeping it simple. 96 00:05:24,903 --> 00:05:28,218 Once folks saw how quick and convenient it was to get a hot, 97 00:05:28,271 --> 00:05:32,455 fresh meal without leaving their car, the ridicule turned into a standard for the 98 00:05:32,495 --> 00:05:33,494 whole industry. 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,556 It's hard to imagine a world without a drive-thru now! 100 00:05:36,762 --> 00:05:43,672 Behind the legendary name, though, was a human being facing immense pressure-whether 101 00:05:43,704 --> 00:05:47,983 from financial panics, internal betrayal, or personal doubt. 102 00:05:48,323 --> 00:05:52,472 How did you shoulder that burden without letting the vision splinter? 103 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,676 The pressure of managing rapid growth can really weigh on you, 104 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,248 especially when we started franchising across entire cities and states in the 1970s. 105 00:06:01,364 --> 00:06:05,821 Suddenly, you aren't just responsible for your own kitchen; you're responsible for 106 00:06:05,841 --> 00:06:08,702 the livelihoods of thousands of workers and owners. 107 00:06:09,062 --> 00:06:13,503 I shouldered that burden by keeping my focus on the people and relying heavily on my 108 00:06:13,570 --> 00:06:14,783 faith and my family. 109 00:06:14,943 --> 00:06:19,262 When personal doubt crept in, I would go back to the restaurants, 110 00:06:19,294 --> 00:06:23,982 talk to the short-order cooks and the customers, and remind myself of why I started. 111 00:06:24,249 --> 00:06:27,899 Staying grounded in the daily work kept the vision from splintering. 112 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,643 Speaking of the people who stood by you, who were the very first people-beyond your 113 00:06:32,691 --> 00:06:35,279 immediate family-to buy into what you were doing? 114 00:06:35,459 --> 00:06:40,957 How did you convince early workers or customers to trust an entirely unproven 115 00:06:41,027 --> 00:06:41,597 concept? 116 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,396 My earliest mentor was Phil Clauss, who gave me a shot as a busboy at the Hobby 117 00:06:48,449 --> 00:06:51,309 House in Fort Wayne when I was just a teenager. 118 00:06:51,429 --> 00:06:55,752 He trusted me when I was just a kid who had dropped out of school to work full-time. 119 00:06:55,925 --> 00:07:01,029 Later on, when I opened the first restaurant downtown, my early workers were local 120 00:07:01,096 --> 00:07:03,033 folks who just wanted an honest job. 121 00:07:03,353 --> 00:07:07,750 I didn't convince them with fancy speeches; I convinced them by working right 122 00:07:07,806 --> 00:07:08,630 alongside them. 123 00:07:08,790 --> 00:07:13,114 When a boss is willing to wash the dishes and prep the lettuce next to you, 124 00:07:13,167 --> 00:07:15,267 it builds a trust that money can't buy. 125 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,319 Leading by example is truly the best way. 126 00:07:18,619 --> 00:07:22,964 Can you take us to the exact moment where you felt the momentum shift? 127 00:07:23,124 --> 00:07:27,915 What was the specific milestone, contract, or breakthrough where you realized, 128 00:07:28,115 --> 00:07:32,156 "We aren't just going to survive-we are going to change everything"? 129 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,272 The massive tipping point came in 1973 when we decided to start selling franchises 130 00:07:38,292 --> 00:07:42,587 for entire cities and regions, which was completely unprecedented at the time. 131 00:07:42,713 --> 00:07:46,982 Within the first hundred months of making that offer, we opened over a thousand 132 00:07:47,062 --> 00:07:47,942 franchises. 133 00:07:48,013 --> 00:07:51,946 Watching those grand opening ribbons being cut in town after town, 134 00:07:51,980 --> 00:07:56,262 seeing families pack into the dining rooms exactly the way I used to dream about as 135 00:07:56,289 --> 00:07:58,821 an orphan boy-that was the breakthrough. 136 00:07:58,933 --> 00:08:03,066 That was the moment I realized we had built a global family, 137 00:08:03,106 --> 00:08:04,268 not just a burger shop. 138 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,076 Over a thousand stores in less than ten years is just incredible. 139 00:08:09,436 --> 00:08:14,985 Now, you didn't just build a company; you built a distinct culture and philosophy 140 00:08:15,033 --> 00:08:16,105 that outlasted you. 141 00:08:16,532 --> 00:08:20,585 In the early days when it was just a handful of people in a room, 142 00:08:20,625 --> 00:08:23,860 how did you instill that standard of excellence or service? 143 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,039 I instilled it by talking to people honestly and listening to them with respect. 144 00:08:29,319 --> 00:08:35,032 I always told my team that being nice doesn't mean you don't address problems; it 145 00:08:35,085 --> 00:08:39,114 means you treat people with dignity even when you're delivering tough news. 146 00:08:39,354 --> 00:08:44,784 In those tiny early meetings, I hammered home that profit isn't a dirty word-it 147 00:08:44,824 --> 00:08:49,095 means growth, bigger pies, and more opportunities for everyone in the room to 148 00:08:49,165 --> 00:08:49,735 succeed. 149 00:08:50,002 --> 00:08:53,808 If you share the success with the people building it with you, 150 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,934 they will carry that standard of excellence forward naturally. 151 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,229 Such a grounded approach to business, Dave. 152 00:08:59,369 --> 00:09:04,188 Looking back, history books often flatten a person's life into a neat, 153 00:09:04,232 --> 00:09:05,224 polished narrative. 154 00:09:05,464 --> 00:09:09,545 What is the biggest misconception people have about your journey, 155 00:09:09,561 --> 00:09:12,822 your character, or how your company was actually built? 156 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,052 A lot of folks see the television commercials from the late '80s and '90s and think 157 00:09:18,252 --> 00:09:24,533 I was always this comfortable, grandfatherly celebrity who had an easy ride to 158 00:09:24,613 --> 00:09:25,253 success. 159 00:09:25,365 --> 00:09:29,414 They see the white shirt and the red tie and think it was all just a marketing 160 00:09:29,462 --> 00:09:29,974 character. 161 00:09:30,174 --> 00:09:36,215 The truth is, I had a very tough, lonely childhood moving from state to state after 162 00:09:36,261 --> 00:09:39,744 losing my adoptive mother, and I dropped out of school in the tenth grade. 163 00:09:39,931 --> 00:09:41,820 It wasn't a polished journey at all. 164 00:09:42,007 --> 00:09:47,419 It was a lifetime of hard, gritty restaurant work, a lot of rejections, 165 00:09:47,439 --> 00:09:51,250 and a constant struggle to overcome my lack of formal education, 166 00:09:51,277 --> 00:09:55,572 which was actually the biggest mistake of my life until I finally went back and got 167 00:09:55,625 --> 00:09:56,371 my G.E.D. 168 00:09:56,411 --> 00:09:57,091 later on. 169 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,678 Thank you for sharing that vulnerability. 170 00:09:59,776 --> 00:10:03,438 Building an empire always requires a steep personal cost. 171 00:10:03,578 --> 00:10:08,480 Looking back at the entirety of your life, what was the hardest sacrifice you had to 172 00:10:08,528 --> 00:10:12,000 make for the sake of your vision, and was it ultimately worth it? 173 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,923 The hardest sacrifice was always time. 174 00:10:14,083 --> 00:10:17,838 In the early days of building the business, I missed a lot of moments with my wife 175 00:10:17,878 --> 00:10:22,153 Lorraine and our children because I was traveling, managing franchises, 176 00:10:22,193 --> 00:10:23,830 and living in restaurant kitchens. 177 00:10:23,950 --> 00:10:27,669 You try your best to balance it, but an empire demands your full attention. 178 00:10:27,779 --> 00:10:32,469 Looking back, it was a heavy cost, but it allowed me to provide a secure life for my 179 00:10:32,515 --> 00:10:37,106 family and, importantly, it gave me the platform to create my Foundation for 180 00:10:37,177 --> 00:10:41,030 Adoption to help thousands of foster children find permanent homes. 181 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:45,352 Because of that, yes, the hard work and sacrifice were ultimately worth it. 182 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,721 That legacy of giving back is truly profound. 183 00:10:49,041 --> 00:10:53,516 If you could send a single sentence back through time to yourself on the very first 184 00:10:53,556 --> 00:10:58,398 day you started this venture-knowing every trial, triumph, and heartbreak that 185 00:10:58,448 --> 00:11:02,956 awaited you-what would you say? 186 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,232 I would say: "Keep your feet on the ground, never compromise on your values, 187 00:11:09,352 --> 00:11:14,676 and remember that every single child deserves a permanent, loving home." 188 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,119 That is beautiful, Dave. 189 00:11:16,210 --> 00:11:20,916 Before we sign off today, do you have any closing remarks about the interview or the 190 00:11:20,966 --> 00:11:23,960 stories you shared that you would like to share with our listeners? 191 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,590 I just want to encourage everyone listening to remember that no matter where you 192 00:11:27,643 --> 00:11:32,873 start in life, hard work and treating people with honesty will take you further than 193 00:11:32,933 --> 00:11:34,111 any shortcut. 194 00:11:34,258 --> 00:11:38,557 Be nice, listen to others, and don't be afraid to pick up a mop. 195 00:11:38,690 --> 00:11:41,521 Thank you so much for having me on your show, Calvin. 196 00:11:41,708 --> 00:11:44,003 It's been a real joy to look back on it all with you. 197 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,721 The joy was all ours, Dave. 198 00:11:46,754 --> 00:11:49,315 Thank you so much for stepping into the studio with us. 199 00:11:49,475 --> 00:11:54,358 Wow, what an amazing look into the life of Dave Thomas-a man who proved that you 200 00:11:54,398 --> 00:11:58,762 don't have to cut corners to achieve unparalleled success, and whose heart for 201 00:11:58,815 --> 00:12:02,125 adoption left a legacy far bigger than business metrics. 202 00:12:02,345 --> 00:12:05,799 And that wraps up another conversation from beyond the grave. 203 00:12:05,902 --> 00:12:10,594 Thanks for joining us on The Headstones and Microphones Podcast - Founder Stories. 204 00:12:10,727 --> 00:12:15,071 Remember-legends may die, but their stories never do. 205 00:12:15,231 --> 00:12:18,908 Please help spread the word by sharing and following the pod.