Why Every CFO Needs a Personal Brand (And How to Build One), with Wassia Kamon

If I google you today, what would I see? Many CFOs are invisible and it's costing them. To this guest, Basya Kemman is full time CFO and host of the Diary of a CFO podcast. She believes staying behind the scenes is becoming a real carrier risk for finance leaders. In this episode we unpack why personal brand matters for CFOs. How it can open doors, shape perception and build influence before you need it. We also get practical what to post about, what not to share and how to build simple systems that make it sustainable alongside a demanding full time role. This is about more than LinkedIn posting. It's about making sure the market can see the leader you already are. This is the growth minded cfo. Let's dive in. Foreign. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Growth Minded CFO Podcast. I am Alex Louis and I'm here with Lauren Ferrell and we are here today in New York City with Wasiah Kemon Online on the other side of the screen, Wasia is the host of the Diary of a CFO Podcast and the CFO of Access to Capital for Entrepreneurs. Wasia, thanks so much for being on the show today. We super excited to have another podcast host on the show that makes our lives much easier. Hoissier, do you want to introduce yourself? Of course. Thank you so much for having me. So Wasia, come on. Like you said, Alex, I'm the CFO of Access to Capital for Entrepreneurs. I'm based in Atlanta, Georgia and the whole sort of Diary of a CFO podcast. Very cool. So I think like the first thing that sparks to mind when I knew that you were coming on the show was to hear about the story of in your CFO journey why you decided to start a podcast. Like how it got going. Can you kind of take us back in time to where you were in your career? Like when you decided you want to do this and sort of what happened? What kicked it all off? Yes, the whole time. Let's get into it. So I was VP of Finance and Accounting at another cdfi and when I got offered the position here at Ace and it went very quickly, was a recruiter that reached out to me on LinkedIn out of the blue and I was basically hired on the spot. At that time I already had over 20,000 followers on LinkedIn. I was, you know, I started my content creation journey a few years back. So I was like, oh, how can I make sure I stay consistent? Right? Because I've seen the benefits of, you know, building your executive brand online and Also offline. And so how can I keep that going and still make sure I'm connected with people? So I thought a podcast would be a great idea. My start date was August, and I launched the podcast in September. For some reason, I thought it would be a good idea. As podcasters ourselves, we have, I think, a little bit of extra empathy for how crazy that timeline is. It is a crazy timeline. It is. But just. Even just before you started doing this, when you say that you already had a presence on LinkedIn and started having followers and content, what pushed you to do that in the first place? Because just to be honest, between us, very few CFOs actually do this. Right? Yeah. Content creation at all. Yes. So it was back during COVID Right. Right after Covid, everybody was rethinking their career. Their careers. And I took a personal branding course by the then CMO of Netflix. And she said something that really stuck with me, and it was, if you're planning on being on the workforce for the next three decades, you need to have a presence online. And that is because people will Google you before they work with you. And that will be now your first impression. So if I Google you today, what will I see? And he just stuck with me. And I was like, oh, you know, I googled myself. And I was like, okay, there's nothing much there. And she started going over, you know, it could be articles, it could start small and all that. So it took me about a year from taking the course to actually do my first post on LinkedIn. Wow. That's a long time to kind of get prepared and, yeah, be invested, but not post anything. Yes. I changed the head. I did the headshot. And I was like, what? What am I going to do? And then I was like, okay, I need to optimize my profile. I took a few LinkedIn courses here and there, and then I just paused. And then just having a new headshot and an optimizing new profile, I was approached by my first VP role. Wow. On LinkedIn. Yes. No posting, nothing. Wow. So that was. Now you've referenced two different opportunities that came to you because of LinkedIn activity. So you were getting some really strong data points as you were increasing your executive presence online. What else did you notice other than those two kind of offers? Did other things change for you or come up? What's different when you start to have more visibility online for you? Yeah, it's just been a lot of opportunities. I got asked to speak, and now I'm a keynote speaker. I got to be. And because of that, because of some. Actually, the director of Wharton Online, Christian, you probably know him, he saw a clip of me speaking and he was like, oh, I need this on the program. And that's how I got on the program, to teach out the Wharton Online FBI certificate. So it created, like, connections and opportunities I didn't even anticipate, really. And the podcast only amplified that with now me being able to go almost use it as a business card to other executives I always wanted to talk to. I'm like, sure, let's talk about the podcast. I really wanted to talk to them as mentors and also out of curiosity of what they were doing. I really like that because we, as you mentioned earlier, we often think about LinkedIn and updates in LinkedIn only at the point where you're going to do a change in your carrier. Yeah. But what you're seeing here, and in the end, we change jobs, like, not every two days, Right? It's only every couple of years. And so what is really interesting here, what I hear from you, is the fact that it's actually helping you throughout your entire career. And, you know, just like at every, every point in time and every day, does that changes anything for your company right now? Like, do they benefit from that, your co workers? Like, do they do the same as well? Or how does that work for your day to day in your current workplace? So what has helped me here at ACE is it was really a warm introduction because ACE is my first CFO role. Okay. And I was very surprised when I stepped in that my employees, my co workers, my peers felt like they already knew a part of me because that's what LinkedIn builds. Because I like to post about 20% personal and 80% professional stuff. That's, that's my balance to still show up authentically on LinkedIn. So that there is not much of a difference between what you see online and the person you actually meet in person. And so a lot of them, it was almost like a warm introduction of, oh, tell me more about this. And so that learning curve where you have to build trust and establish credibility and all that was very shortened because of all the content there was online. Even my founder, because I have a founder, and then the CEO transition in between. Like, they looked me up before the interview, right? They looked me up before the first day, the day I said. The day they announced internally that I was a new CFO. One person, one employee of mine I had 10 years ago reached out and said, hey, you will be my new boss here. Wow. Like, people pay so much attention is not just to get the job, but also how you show up in those first 90 days that are so crucial in any leadership role. Yeah, it's so cool hearing you point out this particular advantage of having a podcast and a presence online because so often we hear about that building trust in context of selling something or becoming speaker. These sort of more like externally facing benefits. But it's so interesting hearing the trust advantage you get as a new boss, as a new leader coming into an organization, because we've heard from so many CFOs that sort of rest period before you can really start taking action because you need to build that trust, which means it can slow things down. But you're saying this is giving you the ability to speed things up when you get in an org, which is super cool. I'm curious if there's any flip side because you're kind of managing this external presence, this podcast, while having a full time role. When have you encountered, have you encountered any issues balancing that or managing the two of them? What have you learned from having to do both at once? Learning to do both at once has been using systems to get both things done. And I've taken breaks from LinkedIn, but people feel like I'm always on. That's the algorithm for you. Yeah, it's not like I haven't posted in a month, but oh, I see you active. I'm like, okay, I'll take that. But for me it's been, it's really been system. So how I, when I started writing, it was because I have two kids and they have swimming practice on Saturday afternoons. And so I was sitting there waiting for them to be done. And there was another mom, she's also a cpa. And we're like, what are we doing with our time just watching these kids who don't even want us to watch them. And I was like, yeah, maybe we should use, we should do something. We're like, oh, let's do you know LinkedIn? I told her about my, the course I took and we're like, okay, we're going to use this one hour and come up with something. And that's how we really started. So I started using the natural downtime I had in my day, my personal life, to either do like a voice to text for an idea I had so I wouldn't start writing a post from a blank piece of paper. So I had like a question or idea bank. And so when it's time to write, I'll just write and I'll schedule one or two posts a week and just keep going. When you do it consistently, you realize sometimes I have like six weeks of content and I'm in meeting that I. Oh, I see. Are you just Posted? I'm like LinkedIn did it for me. Yeah, I haven't been there in a while. But it's really, it really comes down to the system that really work for you and not feeling like you have necessarily to show up or have five post or post every day. And there is no, there's no way for me. I rather have some quality pieces. I rather do one thing once a week. And when you count that is like 52 posts in one year, over 10 years, how many is that? Right. And so trying to think in, you know, kind of compounded interest and understand that these are all the touch points you have for people to better understand the value you bring as a leader and who you are as a person. And that's. That's so precious not to get on it. Yeah, yeah. That's super interesting what you said earlier around this kind of like breaking the ice type of things from communicating on what you do and before you know people, them having seen your kind of like watch an episode of a podcast, read your lines. I'm always, as a CEO, I'm always super interested when people come to an interview, for example, and they say, oh, I listened to this episode of your podcast and suddenly like the conversation engage engages in a much better way because instead of having this kind of like dry, like, you know, formal introduction where we pretty much have nothing to say except for reading like a resume or something, suddenly, like, it's much more real and personal. How do you approach that when you join? Like when you join ace, for example, like, did that help you build better relationship with people around you as well? I will say it did help. Um, because one thing that the founder was looking for in the CEO as well was somebody that would take the finance function to the next level. Yeah. Now anybody with a resume. So if I was so I'm sure they went through hundreds of resumes. Right. There is a hundred CPAs that probably applied, a hundred people that had FP and A. That applied, but who was memorable enough for them to say, yes, I want to interview this person. So yes, your resume helps, but then in this digital world, it helps for people to understand and understand how you think, how you approach things. So whether it's an article that you wrote or a piece of content, again, it will all surface up. And so when I was asked in the interviews, like, what do you think is the ideal finance function looks like? Well, I've been writing about it, I've been thinking, I've been connecting with other leaders, I've been hearing best practices. So even though I had never been a CFO before, again, I was hired on the spot. Yeah. Like, it means I was competing with CFOs. I've done it for years. Right. So how do you do your homework if you're not on a platform that allows you to learn from other CFOs who have done it? Were you able to learn from executive recruiters where you're able to still connect, not just post? Because a lot of LinkedIn to me is more in the DMs and the connections you make outside than just the post. Right. So how are you able to stay relevant? So when you show up, you show up relevant to the company where you're going. Yeah. You. You're starting to also get at another aspect beyond just the being visible in public and making the connections. You're also talking about the education component. And I know, I feel that super strongly being on a podcast interviewing CFOs, because so much of what I've talk to them about has changed how I lead as a leader, just from their insights among the different things that you do, the podcast, your writing, your speaking, what do you get out of each of these things? Where. Where do you learn and grow? Oh, gosh. So funny story. Yeah. When I was in college, I took a personality test and I think it was, I was my second year. And the personality that said, based on what you said, now you'll be a great accountant. So I went all in accounting, became a CPA 25, around 29. I take the same thing. So you'll be great in marketing. And I'm like, it's too late. You're very creative. I'm like, okay, make up your mind. Yeah, but I thought, I'm cpa, almost cma, and all these letters. And I'm like, okay. So all these have really allowed me to really fulfill the creative side of me that probably that desk revealed. So I'm always energized to talk all these things. That energy is what I'm missing from a spreadsheet. Right. Like, I was always a person who wanted to talk to the marketing for the software and development because I work in other industries as well. And so what I've been able to do is really fulfill that side of me. Right. Because I feel like you cannot get all your fulfillment from one place. Right. Right. You cannot all Come from family or from work. And so these have been like my little happy place where I'm able to just, you know, get that part of me out there. The learning here is that we should be doing the personality test twice before doing three years of studies, maybe every five years or something. Met her twice, cut once. Is what we're hearing from Alex, the engineer in the room. I love what you say was around the kind of, like the routine of writing, like, regularly and having this. This discipline around that I personally like. This is something that I tried in my company to do for everyone, myself included, to. We call it work in public. We say if you do something, well, just try to write about it. And we have a. We have a specific section on the blog for the company that we call Inside of Flow, where anyone can basically post around something they do well. And it's not to be lecturing others, but I often tell them that, like, when you do it, when you write it down, when you take the time to write about it or train others about it, you learn for yourself as well. But what is incredibly hard for the team and myself included, is the discipline of doing it regularly. Right. And I don't know how many people just launch a podcast and only did two episodes. I mean, this is one of the things that was the most worrying for me when we started the podcast. I'm happy we now have more than 30. We kept going. But just one question for you. How do you get that discipline? Because I'm sure that when your kids are swimming, you could also be doing something very different than writing a post on a finance topic. How do you get that discipline and the routine to keep on doing those 52 posts a year and probably like other things that you do on a regular basis? Yes. So a couple of things. Now the podcast is helping because now I can get things from the guest. Right. It doesn't come from. From just my brain, so it really helped. It was like a good move to keep having things to say because now I can share what the guest shift. That has been like the biggest shortcuts for me. Yeah. Outside of that, like, my kids have so many activities. My daughter does volleyball. That's like six hours a week. So even after I'm done running errands. Yes. Seriously, your kids are too cruel. Done doing errands. I'm sure you probably saw the memes, like, when you. You start writing, the ideas naturally come. You start seeing things in a different line. You're like, oh, how could I apply it to finance, for example? I Have a newsletter. And last time I was celebrating how, oh, I'm on this weight loss journey, I lost £20. But I did the things that we often don't want to do, which are the basics, like eat well, you know, exercise, get a trainer if you can. But then I compared it to how a lot of companies are using shortcuts like AI. Like, we all know the basics still work, like taking care of your employees in understanding your customers and using systems to elevate the experience of both. That's what makes any company successful. But now we are rushing to the GLP1, like we rushing to AI to get to the shortcuts. And we know there may be side effects, but we're willing to do it. So things like that are. Once you start writing, you start seeing things like all over in any small topic. So at first it is awkward, it is weird. And I had a system to get me to, okay, I'm going to talk about these three things and it's going to make it easier. So again, systems will allow you to get jump started. But once you start, it is so easy to continue. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I've talked to folks getting started in the content creation journey about systems because I'm a system convert as well when it comes to this content creation stuff and about marketing efforts not being about ideas, but about habits that you pick a marketing activity you can do that can become a habit because that's the only way that it's going to do anything sustainable for you. So yeah, I love this idea of creating a system and then it's easier and not just doing the shortcut because they don't work, they just don't work. I was really curious about the impact on your company. Again, going back to that point. Have you seen other team members that started like, you know, communicating on LinkedIn or kind of like publishing like blog articles or maybe being invited on podcasts or are you the only one? No, I only have one that actually started posting a little bit on LinkedIn. But she just, my, my, my finance manager just published a book last year and she's only speaking and you know, when we were having our one on one, she's like, oh, I'm starting this book. Yes, I can learn. I just learned differently because her daughter was on a spectrum and she wanted to capture the story in the child's book and she was asking me about, hey, how do I go about public speaking and things like that. So it's been great because it enriches the conversation because you want Everyone to feel comfortable again. You can't really force people and say, hey, you have to do this, but at least be a resource for those who want to engage that way online. How do you manage the privacy and discretion required sometimes of the finance role with being a content creator? That's something I think about balancing a lot when I'm thinking about client stories and not disclosing anyone's skeletons. Are there sort of rules of thumb that you use or good examples of how you navigate that well? Oh yeah. For me, if it wouldn't be on the press release or in on public records, I wouldn't share. Yeah, I can share my experience from prior organizations versus the current one. I can share what I think about the newsletter or an article I read. Like there is, there's so many ways you can create content. It could be you reviewing an article, you seeing something in Fortune of Forbes and you want to see, you know, want to talk about it, something you came across, you went to a conference, you heard about this topic. This is what he reminded you, your review of a book you just read. Like there's so many things we can talk about. It could be a mentor that impacted you or a bad boss once upon a time and what you learned from it. There is so much we can talk about that doesn't have to be the results of the company or things that are private. Yeah, that's a great insight. And honestly, it's probably a great exercise to be forced to look outside the role. I know in CFO roles because you're so in stress, sometimes you're really thinking in a focused way about what's right in hand. So it's also a great practice to force you to look outside for fodder of things to think about and talk about. Yeah, and this question around the confidentiality is I think at the root of why actually CFOs and finance leaders do not communicate because they've been trained by design to be very cautious about not sharing information about the budget or the compensation of that person. And I think we often see these things where maybe the marketing teams or the sales people might be very active in communicating a lot on LinkedIn, but not the finance teams. And maybe that's also because of that. But what I really like with this example was yeah, and I think this is very much aligned with the growth minded CFO and the people we want to have on this podcast is actually showing this kind of new vision of a. I don't know if it's new, but actually a modern vision of The CFO where you're not this person who just constantly tried to hide everything and just being like a human being that is also communicating. And I think this is very, very useful to get this kind of role models as well in the position. Because the position of the old style CFO that doesn't want to talk to anyone is just gone. And I think this should be changing. So I think this is a great example. Have you seen moments where for you atia, where you've been able to teach like other CFOs or aspiring CFOs to just be more visible or did you have some tips for them? And especially thinking about this because we have a lot of people in the audience that are not CFOs but might want to become those great CFOs that are communicating. And so I was wondering if you had any tips for them when they are at the beginning of the career and want to be in this position. Oh yeah. I have so many people and actually have a LinkedIn guide. Like a lot of my friends are like, wasia, can you just put it in a small LinkedIn guide and make it free? I'm like, yes, okay, it's on my website now. You can go wasiacomo.com, you'll find it. But basically for me it starts with like if you were thinking about a Venn diagram, so you draw a circle and you put the things that you are good at doing. Like this is, I know how to do this. Then you draw another circle about the things you actually like doing or want to do more. For example, I'm good at bank reconciliation. Do I want to do bank reconciliation? No, that won't be at that intersection, right? And then you draw a third circle and that is what are people looking for for what your long term goals are. So that could be executive recruiters, that could be future CEOs or founders, like who are your future hires? Who is that person that these people will say, yes, I want to work with this person. Right? And then you start realizing, okay, so I like leading change, I'm actually good at it. And a lot of companies that are in this range are looking for people that are good at leading change at small to medium sized businesses, for example. And that becomes one of the pillar of the things you're going to write about. And maybe there is something else, like showing up authentically. Anything else that will correct that will answer those three things. You're good at it, you also enjoy doing it. But people are also actively looking for that skill set and these are the things you want to highlight. You want to talk about how you approach a project or maybe it went well, maybe what did you learn from it? How did you change your approach? Get people to get an insight into your brain because if only your current boss knows how good you are, you're in trouble, that person leaves. Ouch. Right? And so you want to be able to talk about those things, not just online, not just on LinkedIn. Because what if, what if LinkedIn goes away? That's why I also write articles. But you also want people offline in those other meetings, those cross functional meetings, to know about those things as well. So doing those three things, like having those three circles and narrowing down, make it easy for you to build a foundation for what your executive brand will be about. And from there it's way easier to maintain it because now you know, okay, I'm going to talk about digital transformation, leading change, and I don't know, making cookies, for example. And so from there, every time you have an idea about it, you can just create a Google document, avoid to text again and go for it. And so that's what I really, I really help people because sometimes we stuck at, I don't know what, where to start, but to me, starting at that foundation of what you really want to be known for, again, you good at it, you actually like it and people are actively looking for it, that's what you want to go for. Now a lot of people may say, if I'm early in my career, I don't know what people want, for example, and I'll say, thank God for AI. Go on LinkedIn and look for your ideal job description in your ideal company. Download three of them and ask ChatGPT what are these people really looking for? When you review those three job descriptions, let that be what helps you narrow down what that third circle will be. Super smart. Yeah, that's super smart. And I really like, before we take a break, I really like what you said around the third circle because I feel like a lot of, I remember myself being a junior in those early position. You always focused on the first two, but not the third one. You're just very much focused on the inward side of things in the company and what I can do, what I want to do. But you're not really thinking of what people actually want. And I love that point because this is really what is going to drive you to the next position. And what I also like a lot with what you said is that it's a much more natural step instead of I think about the GTM and inbound versus Outbound, but it's very much like, are you going to apply to your position and try to push your resume to this position or are just people naturally just going to ping you on LinkedIn and say, I love what you wrote and I'm actually really interested about what you said, come grab a coffee. And this is going to end up as an offer for this position. So that's really a great, great learning and a great takeaway. Yeah, I love it. Picking that niche and kind of pulling those folks to you. Really good insight. Yeah. Thank you so much, Marcia. We're going to just take a short break and we'll be back in a minute on that exciting episode. Thank you so much. Now for a quick break for a word from our sponsor. Hi Joe here, the producer of the Growth Minded CFO podcast. I really hope you're enjoying today's episode. 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Finance teams have long been under pressure to collect invoices, but not able to focus on the customers behind those invoices. With FRM by Upflow, you can bring the B2C customer experience to your B2B process. Faster payments, better customer experience and fully realized growth potential. It's time your finance function embrace the change. Find out more@upflowio. Now back to the episode. Enjoying today's episode? Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app and tell a friend about the show. Now back to the episode. And we're back on the Growth Minded CFO having an amazing conversation with our fellow podcast Wasia and Wasia. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the meat of the podcast because I know since we've started Ours. We've had so many amazing conversations with CFOs, and on occasion, someone we meet will say something that just sort of blows my mind as a CFO and kind of changes how I operate. And I'm curious on your show if you can give us kind of some snippets of folks who have been on, who have seen said stuff that just like, changed things for you. Like, what are some of those highlight moments for you so far? Oh, gosh. So the most recent one was I'm actually doing a series in person here in Atlanta. And I got the opportunity to invite Tiffany Willis. She's a former global investor relations at Starbucks. And we were in the studio, and I was, you know, and she started talking about, you know, storytelling, because that's what investor relationship, you know, pretty much do. And she was talking about how people have to buy into you before they buy into what you have to say. And she's starting describing. She said, if you think about a pool, for example, that's like 20ft wide and 10 foot deep, like finance, come and say these are the dimensions. And started talking about how the pool is so deep that Michael Faults can. Mike. Mike Phelps can dive in and have no issues, like, no worries. She started painting that story, and I was like, oh, I'm on the pool. But she just brought it to life. And one thing about her own journey was that at some point, she dropped out of ninth grade. She was homeless. Wow. And she's an exec. And she went through eight years of Starbucks, meaning she went to five CEOs, Howard Schultz in the boardroom with the Melody Hops and all these people. And then for her to say, this is where I started. And to be at some point, at 14 years old, homeless to being a Fortune 500 executive. And this is what he told me about showing up authentically to my team. I was like, wow, blown away. Right? Because sometimes it's just those reminders or you think you have it so hard in your life and then you hear about somebody else, you're like, what was I complaining about? So it definitely helped me. These moments allow you to stay grounded in where you are, remind you of the journey that you're going through and how it's impacting others. So that was so impactful for me to hear all her tips on storytelling, but also be inspired by her journey of embracing your scars and showing up authentically. Another one was with Liberty Young, CFO Paul Young, and I got to speak with at the AICPACFO Conference 2026, and his was around how do you build team in an organization? So it makes sense. And his whole approach was on talent development, like, how are you planning the next hire to where you don't have to go out and hire, but people want to work for your finance function. How do you build a team where people want to go, they want to come to your finance function, you are the person they want to work for and how are you organizing it? So other part of the organization also want to work with you. So it's again, that idea that you can build a function that's so attractive. You get invited into those meetings where everybody's struggling to get in because you're top of mind, because you're showing up with those strategic skills, business partnering skills that make you attractive as a function and also as a leader. So I have so many stories like that. But that has been really the highlight of the podcast, learning more, not just about the CFOs, but really getting to understand the humans behind those big titles. This latest story that you just shared is another good example of push versus pull around. How do you build? What strikes me every single time is that so few people do this. How many CFOs just write an article on what's good with the team? And how do you attract people by doing this? What is interesting is that it's easy to stand out of the crowd in some ways when you start doing this, even in the age of AI. And it's been much easier to write content and everything. I think when you started, and maybe I want to end this episode on this, because that's actually a great. You decided to start your own podcast. That's a big project. We know about it. That's probably not the easiest one. You can start with a much more modest thing like writing LinkedIn articles and posts. But the podcast itself, when you started it, what was the common theme? What do you want to achieve with the podcast? And was there any specific objective you wanted to reach by doing it? So my strategic planning was very short. As I said earlier. First with the names. Diary of a CFO sounds like another name. Right. So not much thought went to it. I just went with the flow because I know I want. I wanted to still learn from others and I wanted people to learn with me because that was really also the basis of me starting my content creation journey. And so when I started, I was like, oh, I have a podcast. So I get to talk to people and people also listen to it. So we are learning at the same time. Yeah. So it's Been a great learning experience that way, but there was no big strategic plan in the background. It was literally, let's do it. And I started as audio and it's only about a year ago that I started video and other stuff. Yeah, I, I'm just, just reflecting on this. This is really, really good. I was not expecting that answer, but it's actually a great answer. And for me it's the same as like, if you write like every day in a, in a, like on your side and no one reads it like, this is already like so good for you. Right. And if, I mean, when we. I'm happy we have a lot of listeners to the podcast and it means that it's probably useful, but I think we've often said, Lauren, that even if no one was listening to us, just meeting with the guest and just like we're having so much fun and also so much insights from the CFO is that this would already be such a great result. So I really like your answer, even if it was not the one I was expecting. Yeah, I think it goes to that. CFOs talking to each other is almost always good that we kind of have this tendency to stay in our little silos and it can be very lonely and feel very secretive. And in fact, if you get the opportunity to see someone else's perspective, someone else embracing scars or thinking differently about their team or doing anything in a way that you wouldn't do it, it can just open up the role so much in your own experience. So this is very cool. It was so cool to speak with another podcaster. Thank you so much, Wasia, for coming on the show and joining us on the growth minded cfo. In closing, if you liked today's episode, please feel free to subscribe or recommend the show to a friend or to give us a review. It helps other folks find the show. And today we do a special closing because we can also invite our listeners to subscribe to your podcast. You should definitely check out Diary of a CFO with Wasia. We'll include a link to her show on this show. Notes. It's a really good show. You should absolutely check it out and I guess we'll see you next time on the next episode of the Growth minded cfo. Thank you everyone and thank you so much, Wasia for being with us today. See you later. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye.