The Growth Engine - Series 2 Episode 7: How Seraphim Raised £137M by Marketing Space Investing to Retail Investors | Leah Martin

Speaker A: We are Seraphim.

Speaker B: I think everyone thinks that we're just taking people to the moon. The economics of getting into space has drastically changed within these five years that I've been doing this. Space is visual, but we didn't have native imagery. Like now we actually have native imagery. You've got this satellite imagery of rivers and lakes and it's absolutely stunning imagery. You would have it on your wall. Right. And so why wouldn't that be interesting for retail to fully understand? Interest, obviously in space has peaked generally. I mean, Artemis, Elon, Musk, AI, like, you know, it's constantly in the forefront. So. But this again is incredibly recent. This is this year we had to focus on the new generation. They are investing now. I wanted to be on the forefront of, even if it's just, you know, a toe in the door with these platforms, I wanted to get ahead because this is the future. Right. We're not investing in launch, we're investing in technology that is for national security, for food security, for climate change, for sustainability. When they understand that, it's like, wow,

Speaker A: you know, it suddenly opens up their eyes to the possibilities.

Speaker B: Yeah, it suddenly opens up like, okay, this is more than just a load of rich people trying to get to the moon and escape Earth. We're not trying to do that. We're investing companies that are saving Earth.

Speaker A: Uh, Leah, thank you for joining us today on the growth engine. Just to get us started, you've been at Seraphim for about five years now, is that right?

Speaker B: Correct. Yeah, five years in December.

Speaker A: I think the country, the globes kind of caught up now. But five years ago, no one was there. Well, we had, no, we hadn't really. I don't think Musk had even done his kind of launch of his Tesla into space or anything. So it was, it was very, very early days.

Speaker B: Yeah, very early days. And I think that's, that's what's completely changed the game. Like the hundred times going to cost in reduction of getting into space. The fact that, you know, satellites used to be size of buses, now they're the size of your mobile phone, for example.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So all this, you know, of getting into space has drastically changed within these five years that I've been doing this. And so that's been all that's been the messaging from then to now that, you know what we're doing, why we are able to do this now successfully, why these companies are able to build these products and deliver data products, for example, to Earth, how they're able to get into space. When 67 years ago it was completely impossible.

Speaker A: Yeah, content must have been on that list at some point. What's, what was in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So how do you approach the content from a strategy point of view?

Speaker B: So from the content perspective. So when I came to the business there wasn't anyone writing blogs, writing white papers, you know, for example, um, at the time that people just didn't have the time, you know, incredibly small team. Um, and so then we had the idea of, and obviously I didn't feel qualified at that point. I think now I feel qualified to understand um, you know, the industry and who I'm talking to and understand the products. But I think then obviously I was new and I didn't. So it's kind of how can we get content easily and how am I able to do that? How am I able to um, you know, help was by starting the podcast because, um, I suggested, I mean I had worked with ghostwriters and things like that before but I think as we discussed earlier, it's so niche that I think that it just wasn't even an option. And a lot of people, you know, founders, CEOs don't like ghostwriters. They don't feel like it's their own voice, you know, that kind of thing. So people either love it or they hate it. So I think for me it was, it felt like an easy win to start the podcast where I was interviewing. It's also great learning curve for myself to you know, to hear straight from the horse's mouth, interviewing the partners, interviewing the CEOs and the founders. And then you uh, know I'm able to get audio content, video content and also kind of download it into, you know, to digital content for the website.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, which can then obviously help approve SEO. So I think that just felt like a no brainer to start that, the podcast to help A, for my own learning and, and B, just an easy win to, to, to draw that information out of these, these people who yeah, are the experts and yeah.

Speaker A: And the people that you're getting on the podcast as well. They're, they're keen for the exposure because the industry's so new and wanting to get out there and so presumably you had ah, a small army of people queuing around the corner to come on the podcast.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, definitely. People were loving it. The CEOs all, yeah. Wanted to be part of it. They were, they were happy to, happy to help. And yeah, I know obviously from a marketing perspective if, you know, they were happy to share it as well, which helps, you know, Outreach on, on their behalf. And um, yeah, they were just. I didn't, Yeah, I don't have a problem getting anyone, anyone on the podcast. Um, and the format of the podcast, I tried to keep it, um, evergreen. So the questions I ask are very similar. I kind of tweak them obviously, depending on maybe the stage of the business or, or who I'm interviewing. But generally the, the format of the questions is quite the same where I ask them to, you know, talk about who they are, their journey, their product, their market size, where they're going, you know, that kind of thing and then so that the flow will be the same. Um, and so I feel like that, you know, that content is incredibly interesting for people to understand, you know, because these companies are incredibly complex businesses.

Speaker A: But once you've also got that format, I mean, I'm a big, big fan of formats because it's, it's. Once people are comfortable with the format, then they, they like an episode and then they know what to expect for the next one. Keeps people coming back.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I'm actually now at the stage where the companies have evolved so much that I'm kind of doing them again. So from the Right. And also I think I'm better than I was when I did five years ago.

Speaker A: More in the subject.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's um, and such for. So.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, so, so podcast was a big winner. But I know that you're, you've also really leaned into Instagram as well. What was the, what was the reasoning behind that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, space obviously being so, so visual, um, with Fantastic. And it's interesting actually because at the beginning again five years ago, obviously space is visual, but we didn't have native imagery. Like now we actually have native imagery from the, from the businesses, which is fantastic. Um, so again it seemed like for me a no brainer to take this imagery, um, and create assets from the podcast as well. You know, overlaying imagery with, with the podcast. At that point the podcast was only audio and yeah, just, it felt like a really good fit because I think that no one else seemed to be really doing it. I think, you know, obviously LinkedIn is still a huge platform and it is still our largest platform, but Instagram and it was a bit of a slow burner, but it would definitely seen growth. But that came from kind of paying targeted ads via Instagram.

Speaker A: So that's how you started to, how you almost got the kindling revved it up.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I started, I just started Instagram just kind of posting an organically you know, organic reach. And, uh, even at the beginning, there wasn't many of our portfolio companies kind of on Instagram either. And I guess the question would be kind of, you know, who was I trying to reach out to? What was the market? And that initially it was retail investors.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: More than four. So for ssit, for surface based investment trust, rather than for the venture fund. So that was the strategy. So that's when the focus was more aligned with, um, the investment trust.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Thinking that retail investors are going to know, find this incredibly interesting and obviously from, you know, uh, um, a regulation perspective when marketing to retail investors has to be incredibly careful, it has to be educational, you know, it has to be that we have to explain the story of space, explain what these companies are doing and then let them join the dots, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so by having this platform where we're showing how, how easy it is to access space visually. You know, you've got this satellite imagery of rivers and lakes and it's absolutely stunning imagery. You would have it on your wall. Right. And so why wouldn't that be interesting for retail to fully understand?

Speaker A: I'm slightly grinning because I'm thinking back to you saying that you were, uh, you were a bit of a, uh, you know, science fiction nerd and stuff. This sounds like to be your perfect job. You're creating all these beautiful marketing assets of stunning space visuals. It sounds fabulous.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, it is. It's fascinating and yeah. And it's just more available now, you know, than even five years ago. And, uh, I'm constantly emailing the company like, can you send me anything you've got? Like, send me any. Because.

Speaker A: And you'll see they're receptive to that.

Speaker B: Yeah, they love it. Yeah. And this all started for putting together from the Society annual reports that want to have as much native imagery in. In the reports where possible, rather than using stock imagery because, you know, that also that just shows our network and shows the breadth of who we are and you know, and our kind of pull within the industry where we have access to this native imagery, where I'm not just finding a random stock picture of a satellite on. On ice stock. I'm.

Speaker A: And you're one of the most, if not the most distinctive trust in the sector, arguably with. Because you have all of this fabulous access to all the resources. So why, why not make the most 100%? Um, one question I have is that you, from what you just said, is that you said, yes, LinkedIn, but, uh, sorry, yes, Instagram, but LinkedIn is your largest channel. So can you talk about your different channels and which audience types and what's the strategy for each channel?

Speaker B: We try to be over most things. So LinkedIn, um, Instagram X and TikTok, which TikTok hasn't really taken off yet. But, um, the strategy, LinkedIn is mainly obviously more B2B. So yeah, that um, is aligned more with the venture fund, um, and more use that kind of. I wanted that to be a hub for news. I wanted people to come to Seraphim to help grow our brand about. If they want to know, not just about the portfolio, but if they want to know about space news, anything that's going on within the industry that, you know, they'll, they'll come to us to be kind of the voice of that. I kind of use that to. Yeah, I was posting kind of weekly news updates which the top stories within the sector as well as the top stories that within the portfolio. So the strategy of LinkedIn is, uh, I don't do anything paid on LinkedIn. Um, it's all organic. Um, but I think we have now 30,000 followers and that's all organically grown.

Speaker A: Fabulous. And that's over obviously over five years. Yeah, that's, that's. That road has come. So TikTok, yeah. Has. Do you think that's. It's just because you're, you're busy getting the other channels spun up or do you think that the audience is just not quite right there? I would have thought TikTok, yeah, would, would have been a natural fit if you've had success on Instagram. I thought you would do on TikTok.

Speaker B: Yeah, agreed. I think I probably haven't put as much time into that. So basically I take the podcasts, I use a company, um, and they take maybe four, make four or five assets from each podcast episode and they put visuals behind it to make it, um, and they put like quotes out, for example, and they put visuals and they take, you know, the face of the, of the person who's speaking. And then, so they're quite fast. They're quite, you know, you know, appealing to younger generations. And so that was. That started with putting these on Instagram and TikTok. Um, yeah. And I just think that you maybe perhaps you need to go viral on, on Tick Tock.

Speaker A: Get it kicked off.

Speaker B: Yeah, to get it kicked off. I mean we get a lot of views, but they don't convert to followers.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and so that's something that I need to explore and to.

Speaker A: And then let's contrast that when with Instagram, whereas it sounds like you get a lot of views but they do convert to followers. So what, what have you. What have been your learnings that you've sort of found? Because that's, you know, view views is obviously great but really you want to build that audience and I think it's being constant.

Speaker B: Yeah, we, it's a lot of work but constantly, you know, posting daily, posting more than once a day. Um, and again when I started up the meta ads kind of driving people, obviously you have the option of, you know, where are you driving these people when they're seeing your ad and driving them towards being a follower? Uh, or driving them to. On the other hand, sometimes the journey was driving people to download a one pager about educating them how to invest into, into space. So obviously with these platforms you put some money behind it, you get a little bit more traction.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, but I think it's, I think it's worthwhile. I think, you know, and if you have something to, to present to show that's interesting. I think, you know, you don't have to start big, you know, I think. But we're doing about a grand a month. Um, you know, and I think um.

Speaker A: Is that now or then a bit more now. Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, but that's to get, to get everything going. Yeah, that was, yeah. The sort of budget just to get, start the traction happen.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so that's, that's interesting. So you were sort of a dual approach majority of the time going after followers but on occasion optimizing to gain downloads. And then that would be essentially a bit of detail about how you could go about investing. So that, that's quite a high intent signal. If you get people to download, presumably you're tracking.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: All of those outputs. Is that, is that a strategy you still do now?

Speaker B: Still run that strategy now? Yeah. Um, and again it's difficult because it has to be seen as educational. So on the one pager it's then caveated with you then go to your normal investment provider, whether that be aj, Bill Hargreaves, you, you and then that's up to you. So then from a marketing perspective, we are losing people there in the journey.

Speaker A: So yeah, it's the most frustrating thing about investment trust marketing, isn't it? You can't track the. Yeah, have a basket that you can track.

Speaker B: But I could see kind of these platforms that I was driving people to, the retail platforms, moving up the shareholder list.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I could then attribute that to my work, what I did.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's, that's how everyone does it. Yeah, it's, it's a, uh, it's an imperfect thing, but you need to get your data from somewhere, don't you?

Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. And we were seeing, and now we're seeing more of the retail platforms, you know, than ever. You know, um, for example, I think, you know, A.J. bell, they weren't even, you know, you know, very high up in the, you know, in the shareholder chain and now they know they're top 10.

Speaker A: So, so how's that, that growth again? Is that, is that accelerated, uh, over a couple of years? Or is that accelerated because you've engaged that, ah, retail audience?

Speaker B: What Interest obviously, in the space. In space has peaked generally. I mean, Artemis, you know, Elon Musk, X, I like, you know, it's constantly in the forefront. So. But this again, is incredibly recent. This is this year.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So. So, I mean, people have always been interested and wondered by space, but I think that's, you know, it's just been ramped up lately, like, especially in the media. Um, so, I mean, very lucky, those early adopters, you know, who got into the investment trust when we started this because they've seen, you know, the, the share price rocket, um, you know, since

Speaker A: then you built this infrastructure to access retail.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: Now, what's been in the press, and I know that you've been super busy the last couple of days, is that you've just recently gone through fundraise with terrafin.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Raising 137 million now. Congratulations. Firstly, you must be exhausted.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: From our perspective of putting on a podcast for other marketers working investment trust, there obviously hasn't been a lot of, uh, fundraising going on over the last few years. So you're sort of in a unique position. And I'm interested from a marketing perspective. What, what does that Runway to look like of, of stuff that needs to be done.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I think I'd always believed that retail investors were important and, and I think I'm not, you know, saying that others hadn't, but, you know, in the last 10 years, the last decade, you know, the, the bigger checks, the earlier checks were all coming from institutional investors and that was moving the needle. And, and I think I, I've always been interested in investing myself. I know a lot of my friends are, um, and, you know, this. We had to focus on kind of the new generation, you know, the new generation of people. And investing is a lot easier now for people, you know, than it was. We have all the modern platforms, you know, to Trading two one, two, for example, you know, you, you can uh, know you can do it on your mobile phone. So this whole. So my plan shutty from the very beginning and hence using, you know, you know, my foray into things like Instagram targeting TikTok is trying to, you know, spread awareness on these platforms and that. And I think especially not a lot of people in finance are doing, especially not investment trust people are not doing it. Um, so building that, you know, infrastructure up from the beginning, um, you know, was just having that there prior to the fundraise. Just made. When we pushed go on the fundraise, we already had had that there and we already had, you know, it was easy for, for me to kind of tweak an ad, um, to, to link back to the fundraise, for example, that we already had the audience kind of ready.

Speaker A: Got a direct route into them.

Speaker B: Yeah, we had a direct route into them. And as I said, like targeting younger investors, younger people are, you know, millennials, Gen Z, they are investing now as much as, you know, um, as the, as an as older generation. So I wanted to be on the forefront of. Even if it's just, you know, a toe in the door with these platforms, I wanted to get ahead because this is the future. Right.

Speaker A: You know, this is so 137 million raised. Did the retail amount of that come to fruition? So I guess what I want to know is all of that hard work with developing the channels and when the IPO happened, has a solid percentage of that come from retail?

Speaker B: Yeah, we raised 45 million from, from retail, which is incredible. Um, it's the biggest retail raise in the UK in the last five years. Um, I think the only bigger was delivery, which was in, um, 2001.

Speaker A: That's astonishing.

Speaker B: 2021, sorry. Um, yeah.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah. So absolutely incredible. Yes. So. And I, I had a feeling that it would be popular for retail. Um, but I think it was over 7,000 retail investors got, um, on board and it's just a fantastic opportunity, um, for retail to be able to buy at a pound when the share price is now currently on and off. I think we hit 250 the other day, which is, uh, a milestone. Um, yeah. So it's wonderful to see. Yeah. That we were right. That I was right. You know, that this was when. In. At times when institutional investors were a bit iffy about it and didn't quite believe the story. You know, retail were always willing to put money in and put, and willing to believe the story and um, you know, trust in the business. And they proved it.

Speaker A: Now, you know, as you're saying, that's an extraordinary opportunity for those investors coming in at such a price when the, it's trading at such a premium at the moment.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's just being noticed. You know, we've had great relationship with journalists as well and you know, it's been noticed by the press. And it was commented on in citywire today by one of the journalists that uh, actually interestingly, he said, um, he didn't like our uh, font. He, I, he said, I don't like their wacky space fonts. But he said I, but I, but he knows about it. Right. So that's distinct. It's, yeah, it's distinctive, memorable. I'll let him off for saying that. But, um, but he said, you know, I've seen them everywhere, you know, he said, you know, that. And he also commented on our CEO, you know, Mark. He said, you know, he's everywhere. You know, they're always running Instagram campaigns. I've seen Mark on videos, we're seeing him at conferences. Like, you know, it's, it's a full, it's a multifaceted strategy. And I think, you know, we do try to be all the credible places that, you know, that we should be and we try to get our message out, you know, everywhere that we know that the right people can see it. And I think it's really been, the story is so wonderful when people, when the light bulb moment is for people, when, you know, they understand the story about why we're doing it, the low cost launch, you know, what the technology is doing for the Earth. We're not investing in launch, we're investing in technology that is, you know, for, for national security, for food security, for climate change, for sustainability. And when they understand that, it's like,

Speaker A: wow, you know, it opens up their eyes to the possibilities.

Speaker B: Yeah, it suddenly opens up like, okay, this is more than just a load of rich people trying to get to the moon and escape Earth. We're not trying to do that. We're investing companies that are saving. Uh, you know, and so that message is so powerful and telling that story from my perspective on all these different platforms is what's been, you know, been the winning story.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. So what's, what's next from a marketing perspective? You, you um, told us about channels of workings a bit more looking into tick tock brats. But what, what else is on your radar?

Speaker B: Um, I think what I'm interested in and, and I'm not an expert on this in the slightest at the moment, but is LLMs, you know and I want to, obviously people are now searching in ChatGPT, you know, and uh, people are searching in, you know, Claude, you know, like how do I invest in, I want, I want to understand how um, to maximize that as a search for, for Seraphim. And what I do understand is that I feel like things that we were looking at in the past are not the right things now. For example, I'm not saying, you know, we don't want to be in the FT or we don't want to be in Bloomberg, but they uh, in my opinion I perceive as a bit of a vanity measure where we're just like, you know, it's wonderful obviously to be in the FT, but it's behind a paywall. How do these LLMs scrape data? Uh, they use the trades, they use websites, they use Reddit chats, they use Reddit forums. So things are really pivoting in that direction. So maybe you know, we don't, I mean obviously I want money, I don't take them back, but we don't, you know, we can do things. And I actually have always done things on a bit of a shoestring. You know I've always been able to maximize content, get as much out of it as possible using similar content on different platforms. But I feel like focus on that low hanging fruit, focus on doing an AMA on Reddit, focus on getting in a trade magazine, that kind of thing because that's where, that is the future of search and that is where people are looking. And if, I think if you are in, you know, you're utilizing these platforms, you will, you know, grow your brand.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we did um, I did a research, uh, interviews for another, another trust. Um, I think it had to do 10 qualitative interviews and every single interview I did when I was asking about their uh, investor journey, you know, tools that they use at different stages, journey, every single one of them talked about um, yeah, AI search and part of that investment journey. Every single one, 100 if I'd done those same interviews 12 months ago.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Lucky to have had one person say it.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Incredible that how much it's changed.

Speaker B: Yeah, and exactly that's why I'm again I'm not an experiment but I really want to learn more about that and I think that's where I'm going to be focusing my energy and, and also I didn't quite get this off the market in time before the fundraiser but kind of influences as well financial or influencers as they're, you know, as they're called.

Speaker A: It's a mouthful.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Where.

Speaker B: And, but there is also something that was reading about, um, kind of optimizing influencer content for LLM. So, so there is a way that, you know, you can, whatever you're pushing on social media, whatever these people are saying, whatever the, and, and the chats, you know, then the, and the, that all is going to make a huge difference to AI Search. Um, but I'm seeing, yeah, I really want to focus on if possible from a budget perspective. Um, yeah, using influences to reach out to retail investors because again that is a trusted source of. And I think it is all about, especially in financial services, all about trust and transparency.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And um, hopefully, you know, people, retail investors realize that, you know, we are, you know, we are regulated and we, we can't, we wouldn't be using someone that wouldn't be, you know, a safe pair of hands and wouldn't be kind of, you know, explaining exactly how things need to be, need to be said. So I think using someone who's trusted people are more likely to, to go to that person because it's, it's also, you know, it's not, it's not someone who is, you know, someone who's had a, you know, a column in, in the Times for the last 50 years. It's someone who you know, is, is trying to make money by talking to real people. And it just, I think it's because, as I said, because I think Authenticity. Yeah, that's the word I was looking for. I think it's authentic and it's, it's a changing world where everyone can invest now. You know, whether you know about it or understand it at all you can. And so these are the more likely where people are going to, are looking for advice rather than going to a column in the ft. Just come up

Speaker A: with another question listening to you then. And it relates to something you mentioned before about um, how you're tracking the share platforms on the share register. But you also mentioned that you're specifically targeting going after a young investor now. Majority of investment trusts and I won't name the company but a research company does a lot of uh, investigation into investment trust audiences still getting that the average investment thrust holder is about 65 years of male, um, probably living in Southeast.

Speaker B: Sorry.

Speaker A: Um, and I think there's a general awareness that actually that may be true but from a monetary point of view. But when you speak to platforms like AJ Bell, they'll tell you that actually they're starting to See much more growth coming through, sort of late 40s and that and that sweet spot really I think which is sort of 45 to 55 seems to be about the next level of investment trust investor. But there's obviously a much younger cohort that are really interested in investing where you've got huge numbers and also a long path in front of them to invest. Now those as I understand are the platforms of like trading 212 and stuff like that. Are they starting to show up on the share register for you?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And is that, is that so they are. That's, that's because of the cross.

Speaker B: That's, that's incredibly recent. Yeah, I think that's within the last six months. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So your, your strategy is, is encompassing both those existing investment trust investors but also you're starting to, to. You've, so you've got, you've almost got quite a short term, long term play marketing strategy happening.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because, because we're not, I haven't forgotten about the current investors or you know, older investors and there's a lot, there's a huge PR strategy as well where you know, we're always trying to be in the press, in the media, you know, so we are still in the, you try to get in, you know, um, in Bloomberg, in Reuters, traditional channels as well. Exactly. Yeah. So it's, it's a multifaceted strategy where we're still doing everything traditionally but kind of the, the social engagement, the platform engagement is something on top, something new. Um, and I think that is future proofing, you know, and obviously it just made sense being space, being super interesting, being something that, that you know, a younger generation are probably less risk adverse to because they've grown, you know, up around it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, amazing. Um, I'm going to start wrapping us up if that's okay. And I'm, I'm intrigued to, to when you, when you look back on your time coming, coming in um, to Seraphine and you're, you're thinking about, okay, if there was a one golden sort of nugget for that you'd pass on to other marketers that are sort of perhaps coming into a role when they're uh, you know, that they feel quite daunted, they've got all of this list. As long as you're on to do, to do list. What, what would you be your advice to those folk?

Speaker B: I think I'm lucky where now I've had a lot of autonomy in my role and I've been trusted to try things, you know, and and if things haven't worked with, you know, within reasonable budgets and, and I think, and I, I said this to you, Phil, but I think it's, it's pr. It's not, er. I think it's good. You can try things and if they don't work, no one's going to die. You know, like, I, I think have the, you know, the, the sense to. And, um, and the creativity to come up with new ideas and come up with new outreach, um, and try different platforms and see what works for you. You know, test things out and if they don't work, can them do something different? Keep the traditional things going as. As we said. But there's always space to try, try new things and, and, um. Yeah. Don't be, don't be afraid.

Speaker A: Thank you, Leah, for, for taking time to come. Come in. Before I let you go, there's. There's one other thing. We, we. We ask our guests if they'd like to leave something behind, a memento, which is a, uh, almost reflective of your journey at Seraphine so far. Is there, is there anything you'd like to contribute to the bookcase?

Speaker B: I'd love to. And a book. So it does. So this is Reach For Tomorrow by Arthur C. Clarke. And, um, it's a compilation of different space stories. And I think what's good about it is many space stories are very kind of dystopian and dark and I think this is a very. For how long ago it was written. It's very positive and it talks about what space can bring, you know, and what, and, and um, you know, how exciting the future can be. And I think for any space enthusiasts, um, you know, it's a, it's a must read.

Speaker A: Or any budding space investors as well.

Speaker B: Well, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, that's superb. Thank you so much. I'm, I'm. I'll look forward to putting it on the bookcase. But more importantly, look. Yeah, please do it as well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Thank you again, Liv, for joining us. Thank you for listening today to the Growth Engine. If you enjoyed this episode and like to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from and follow us on LinkedIn for regular updates or on, um, hubagency.co UK. Thank you and see you next time.