The Ecommerce Alley Podcast · 2026-06-22 · 24 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
46 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Meta ads represent the primary acquisition channel for ecommerce, yet most brands struggle with knowing what creative to test next. Josh Coffee's 4-level ad testing ladder solves this by providing a systematic hierarchy from least to most resource-intensive tests. Level 1 (angles) focuses on the core argument or contrarian position - like "acne is a gut problem, not a skincare problem." Level 2 (hooks) explores the many ways to communicate that angle, using four hook types: visual, text, verbal, and audio. Level 3 (style testing) varies the aesthetic execution while keeping angle and hook constant. Level 4 (format testing) compares image versus video. The framework drives creative diversity and allows brands to take multiple swings at Meta from different angles efficiently. Coffee grounds this in a real client win: a subscription box service (Julie) that grew from 700 to 1,850 subscribers, increased AOV 30%, and scaled ad spend from $100-150 daily to over $1,000 daily profitably - all by obsessing over acquisition and creative testing. The ladder ensures brands exhaust cheap variables before investing time and dollars in expensive ones like video production.
An angle is the core argument or contrarian position (e.g., "acne is a gut problem"), while a hook is one of many ways to express that angle. If you can say a concept in 10+ different ways, it's an angle; if there's only one way to say it, it's likely just a hook to a larger angle.
Both. Images can use visual hooks (eye-stopping imagery) and text hooks (overlay copy). Videos unlock all four hook types: visual, text, verbal (spoken words), and audio (sound effects).
Follow the 4-level ladder from cheapest to most expensive: level 1 angles, level 2 hooks, level 3 style, level 4 format (image vs. video). Exhaust each level before moving to the next to drive diversity and efficiency.
Images are faster to create, AI tools are very effective at generating them, and they allow you to test angles and hooks cheaply before investing in expensive video production or creator fees.
Generate at least 10 different hook variations of that angle across visual, text, verbal, or audio methods. If you've tested multiple hooks with consistent angle and style, you've exhausted the angle and can move to the next level.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains a few genuinely useful distinctions - particularly the angle vs. hook taxonomy and the rule that an angle must be expressible 10+ ways - but roughly one-third of the runtime is throat-clearing, the Julie success story, and promotional CTAs before substantive content begins. The actual framework is compressed into the final ~12 minutes, diluting density significantly.
the kind of rule of thumb is if you can say this concept in at least 10 or more ways, then it's an angle. If you say the thing and there's no other way to say it beyond the thing, then it's probably just a hook to a larger angle
images can have visual and text hooks. Videos can have vi all four visual, text, verbal, and audio
The four-level ladder (angles → hooks → styles → formats, cheapest to most expensive) is a sensible repackaging of ideas common in the DTC/Meta ads world rather than a genuinely novel framework; the FOCUS acronym is credited to a team member and maps to standard copywriting concepts. The angle/hook distinction is crisply articulated but not a new idea.
your adult acne isn't a skincare problem, it's a gut problem. So that's like the angle, right?
F stands for frustration. What are they sick of dealing with?
This is a solo-host episode; Josh Coffee is a practitioner with a claimed 13-year agency background managing hundreds of ad accounts, which is credible and relevant. He is not a widely recognised expert and the episode does not surface deep proprietary insight that would signal exceptional operator-level knowledge.
for the last nearly 13 years have been working hand in hand with e-commerce brands
we optimize hundreds of ad accounts with clients every single month. And we've done this for so long
The episode includes real client data points (Julie growing from 700 to 1,850 subscribers, AOV from $50 to $65, ad spend from $100 - 150/day to $1,000+/day) and a named client product (Pacific Hound dog scarves) with multiple concrete hook examples. However, there are no ROAS benchmarks, CTR data, or statistical evidence for the ladder framework itself - claims about what works are asserted rather than proven.
her AOV at the time was$50, and now it's$65... she's spending well over $1,000 per day profitably on day one
How many times have you retied your dog's bandana on a single walk?
This is a solo monologue with no interviewer, no pushback, and no follow-up questions; the format structurally eliminates conversational craft. The delivery is also meandering with heavy repetition, frequent self-interruption, and filler connectors that reduce clarity rather than building on ideas.
And so I say this because start with angles, images can still be a good starting guy
And so I'm just gonna walk you through an example of like a ladder in action here
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
The number one question we get from ecommerce founders running Meta ads is the same every single day: what do I test next? After 15 to 20 hours of think time, thousands of optimization sessions, and hundreds of ad accounts, Josh built one framework that answers it for good. It's called the Ad Testing Ladder. In this audio-exclusive episode, Josh walks through the exact four-level system he uses to know what Meta ad to build next, climbing from the cheapest variable to the most expensive so every batch you launch drives the creative diversity Meta rewards.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > SPEAKER_00: All right, our ad testing system four levels. 2 - > Welcome to another audio-only episode of the e commerce Alley 3 - > podcast. 4 - > My name is Josh Coffee, and I'm the founder of eCommerce Alley, 5 - > where we for the last nearly 13 years have been working hand in 6 - > hand with e-commerce brands, helping them scale their 7 - > companies from wherever they're at to wherever the next level 8 - > is, and then how to push beyond that. 9 - > And we teach lots of marketing frameworks.
10 - > We particularly focus in on meta-ads, which is what this 11 - > episode today is going to be about. 12 - > And this is going to be about an ad testing ladder that you climb 13 - > in order to scale your ads in the most efficient way. 14 - > Because one of the number one questions that we receive every 15 - > single day from the hundreds of clients we work with is what do 16 - > I text text? 17 - > What do I test next?
18 - > And so I want to help you solve that because there are so many 19 - > different things you can do. 20 - > And if you're a client listening, you may have heard me 21 - > talk about the three dials that you can turn between product, 22 - > message, and creative. 23 - > But I'll tell you what, I'm going to be introducing you to a 24 - > new framework that we call the ad testing ladder that I'm 25 - > really, really excited about because this is a sneak peek to 26 - > what many of our clients are going to be getting on July 2nd, 27 - > which is an entire huge system rollout of all kinds of things 28 - > that we're seeing work on meta, this framework with tons of 29 - > examples, visuals, how-tos, etc.
30 - > But what I want to do is I want to share this framework with 31 - > anybody who feels like they struggle with knowing what to 32 - > build next with their ads. 33 - > Do I do video? 34 - > Do I do image? 35 - > What types of images?
36 - > What types of videos? 37 - > Where do hooks come in? 38 - > How do I do messaging, et cetera? 39 - > And this is a way to do it.
40 - > Because as I sat down, and when I actually sat down to create 41 - > this, by the way, this is a brain child that I've been 42 - > working on. 43 - > And it's probably taking me, I mean, it has to be 15 to 20 44 - > hours of think time. 45 - > And when I mean think time, I mean literal think time. 46 - > Going and studying what are the order that we see the fastest 47 - > companies grow that we work with?
48 - > What are the things that we're doing that we see work with? 49 - > How do I know what to create next? 50 - > Which, you know, I have the benefit of I've done thousands 51 - > of optimization sessions. 52 - > We have, we optimize hundreds of ad accounts with clients every 53 - > single month.
54 - > And we've done this for so long. 55 - > So, like naturally, I could just look at a campaign, I could look 56 - > at ads, and I could say, ooh, this is the next thing to chase. 57 - > This is the next thing to do, and let's build it in this 58 - > style. 59 - > Here's going to be a good hook, et cetera.
60 - > But it's not very firsthand knowledge to most people. 61 - > And so sometimes I take that for granted. 62 - > But even sometimes I find myself stuck and I'm just like, what do 63 - > I need to build next? 64 - > Because I still build, I'd say 7, 60 to 70% of the content that 65 - > goes out for the e-commerce alley regarding advertising and, 66 - > of course, all the organic is me.
67 - > And so I still build creative inside our company. 68 - > And I are honestly, it's one of the most compounding leveraged 69 - > things you could do as a founder. 70 - > So don't try to get out of it. 71 - > You should try to just get better at it and learn to love 72 - > it.
73 - > So all that said, I'm gonna be walking through a four-level ad 74 - > testing ladder that is an order you should test in a way that 75 - > the each level is essentially what I would consider a rung. 76 - > And the goal is to climb from the cheapest variable to the 77 - > most expensive variable, and you exhaust the run, the rung that 78 - > you're on before you climb to the next. 79 - > Because if you could do this, this ladder is gonna drive 80 - > diversity within each batch of ads that you're doing, which is 81 - > probably the thing you hear.
82 - > Like, well, you need diversity, diversity in your ads. 83 - > And and this is going to help you do that. 84 - > And it's gonna allow you to take different swings at meta from 85 - > different angles in a certain way from the bottom. 86 - > And so we're gonna start at the base and we're gonna climb 87 - > through each of these four levels as we go.
88 - > But before I dive into that, I want to share a really cool 89 - > story that happened with one of our clients earlier this week, 90 - > where I'm I'm packing up to leave the office one of these 91 - > days, and I'm walking out, I'm I'm heading out, and I look to 92 - > my left, and Isaac, who's our client success director, he's 93 - > he's working with, he's on a call on Zoom with one of our 94 - > clients, Julie. 95 - > And Julie, I met Julie a couple years ago, I think it was almost 96 - > two years ago-ish, and she runs a subscription box and she's on 97 - > the call, and Isaac kind of mapping out, we do 90-day game 98 - > plans with our clients.
99 - > So every 90 days we set priorities, we set revenue, 100 - > profit objectives, gross profit margin objectives, ad spend 101 - > objectives, and then we go and we build up, we determine what 102 - > priorities and projects we need to tackle in order to do that. 103 - > Well, anyway, I stop in and I talked to I talked to Julie and 104 - > I asked her how the business was doing. 105 - > And so we're just talking for a few minutes, and she tells me 106 - > they they just crossed 1,850 box subscribers, which is pretty 107 - > incredible.
108 - > But the crazy thing is when I met Julie, she was like 700 109 - > subscribers, and so we're talking like over 1100 new 110 - > subscribers. 111 - > And so I kind of got curious, and like later that night, uh 112 - > Julie, if you're listening, I was just kind of curious to know 113 - > where you started. 114 - > I'm like, hey, I want to go see what our first conversation was 115 - > like. 116 - > So I went into our CRM and I go to and I see the note from the 117 - > very first conversation that was had two years almost two years 118 - > ago, and I look at it, and her AOV at the time was$50, and now 119 - > it's$65.
120 - > So she like more than doubled her subscriber base from 700-ish 121 - > to adding$1,100 plus more. 122 - > She increased her pricing by 30%. 123 - > And her ad spend back in the day on the note we took was about 124 - > $100,$150 a day. 125 - > And now she's spending well over $1,000 per day profitably on day 126 - > one, which is pretty crazy in the subscription box world.
127 - > And on top of that, she was telling me on the call, she 128 - > said, Yeah, also we sold out of the next month's box. 129 - > I literally either we have to wait list people, we have to 130 - > shut off ads, or we have to like pre-sell the September box for 131 - > two months from now, which is a fun problem to have. 132 - > And those are the good things you get to solve at certain 133 - > levels in business. 134 - > And I share this because that's what happens when you prioritize 135 - > the one thing that most people put off and that is gonna really 136 - > move the needle in your business, and that is 137 - > acquisition.
138 - > And when I think of acquisition for e-commerce, meta-ads is 139 - > number one. 140 - > And so you have to obsess over your messaging, offers, pricing, 141 - > ads, et cetera. 142 - > Everything that comes through meta-ads, you have to get really 143 - > good at, but it's really freaking hard. 144 - > It takes a lot of work.
145 - > And all of this, by the way, is to preface that what I'm gonna 146 - > cover today is a lot of work. 147 - > Julie did a lot of work and she was able to grow substantially 148 - > through doing a lot of work, but she had to prioritize the time 149 - > to do the thing. 150 - > So, what I'm gonna share is a lot of work. 151 - > And to do it is going to take time, and there's no way around 152 - > it.
153 - > The only thing you could do is go forward and take the next 154 - > step and do the next thing. 155 - > So, all that said, I'm encouraging you that as I cover 156 - > this, know that you can do it. 157 - > You can do it. 158 - > If you say I'm not a designing person, Josh, yes, I'm not a 159 - > designing person either.
160 - > I wasn't a designing person, I learned some skills. 161 - > I'm still not, but you know what? 162 - > AI makes it really, really easy. 163 - > So a lot of the stuff I'm gonna talk about, I'm gonna I'm gonna 164 - > talk through how to exhaust the cheapest way to do it to the 165 - > most expensive.
166 - > So image ads, for example, are cheap. 167 - > Video ads are expensive from a time and if you're working with 168 - > creators, dollars standpoint. 169 - > And so I'm gonna walk you through the cheapest to the most 170 - > expensive. 171 - > And what I want to say is when we're doing this, there are four 172 - > levels, and I'm gonna give you the four levels.
173 - > The first level are is angle testing, the second level is 174 - > hook testing, the third level is style testing of the ads, and 175 - > the fourth level is format testing. 176 - > So uh format, by the way, is image or video. 177 - > The reason that's at the top is because I recommend that you 178 - > start testing with images. 179 - > They're faster to create.
180 - > AI is very, very good at them. 181 - > I did a workshop for all of our clients. 182 - > If you're a client in the alley or the Max Profits Metership, go 183 - > to workshops and go to replays. 184 - > We did a 90-minute workshop like two weeks ago on AI with 185 - > creative.
186 - > And so if you're strong at video, though, and you're 187 - > listening to this, you're like, Josh, I create a lot of video 188 - > already. 189 - > Great, that's fine. 190 - > Start with what you feel the best at. 191 - > But images, you can do angle testing and hook testing, by the 192 - > way.
193 - > People don't believe you can do have a hook in an image. 194 - > Yes, there are hooks in images. 195 - > There are four types of hooks, and I'm gonna talk about them. 196 - > And then styles, there are infinite styles.
197 - > And so an angle, let me break down what they are. 198 - > Level one are angles. 199 - > This is the core argument that an ad is gonna make. 200 - > It's basically like this specific problem or belief that 201 - > you're attacking and why your product is the answer.
202 - > For example, you could say your adult acne isn't a skincare 203 - > problem, which is kind of contrarian. 204 - > A lot of people think that it's a skincare problem. 205 - > And you could say your adult acne isn't a skincare problem, 206 - > it's a gut problem. 207 - > So that's like the angle, right?
208 - > We're saying acne is not a skin problem, it's a gut problem. 209 - > Boom. 210 - > That's a contrarian angle. 211 - > Now, here's the thing: there are a lot of ways to say that, which 212 - > goes to level two.
213 - > And these are hooks. 214 - > Okay, this is the first thing that's gonna basically stop the 215 - > scroll and get someone to relate to the thing right away. 216 - > So the same angle can have different hooks. 217 - > And there are four types of hooks, by the way.
218 - > There are visual hooks. 219 - > A visual hook is something that like just stops the scroll 220 - > because it's visually gonna like grab you there. 221 - > This is where like you'll see some people in their videos, the 222 - > camera will just like turn to the side and suddenly they're in 223 - > it. 224 - > That's a that's called a visual hook.
225 - > If someone like it like a video starts and they jump down into 226 - > the screen, that's a visual hook. 227 - > If you have an image that's just eye stopping and it's like, 228 - > whoa, what's going on here? 229 - > That's a visual hook. 230 - > Basically, every image is a visual, by the way.
231 - > Then you have text hooks, which is like an overlay of text on 232 - > the actual graphic or the video. 233 - > Then you have a verbal hook. 234 - > Now you can only do this in videos, of course, where there's 235 - > a certain sound effect or something. 236 - > And then you have an audio, or I'm sorry, a verbal hook is what 237 - > you actually say.
238 - > It's the first thing that you say. 239 - > And then audio hook is like a sound effect or something. 240 - > So there are four types of hooks. 241 - > You have visual, text, verbal, and audio hooks.
242 - > And I say this because images can have visual and text hooks. 243 - > Videos can have vi all four visual, text, verbal, and audio. 244 - > All right, so let's look, let's go back to the skincare thing. 245 - > An angle could be your adult acne isn't a skincare problem, 246 - > it's a gut problem.
247 - > So essentially the the the nutshell would be acne is a gut 248 - > problem. 249 - > That would be like how I would just simplify it, right? 250 - > There's a lot of ways to say it. 251 - > A hook could be, are you still breaking out at 32?
252 - > It's not your face wash. 253 - > Or you could say, the why your this 200, your$200 skincare 254 - > routine isn't fixing your acne. 255 - > Right? 256 - > So like those are different ways to say that thing.
257 - > And I'll give you another one. 258 - > I'm gonna give you one from one of our clients for many years, 259 - > Pacific Hound. 260 - > So Pacific Hound sells dog scarves. 261 - > And the single angle that has well, one angle that has done 262 - > well for her is is villainizing bandanas.
263 - > Like bandanas, for example, don't stay put on an active dog. 264 - > Like that's an angle, right? 265 - > Bandanas don't stay put. 266 - > That would be an angle.
267 - > And so she's she's selling a dog scarf, but she's kind of 268 - > villainizing bandanas in the process of doing that and making 269 - > it the obvious upgrade. 270 - > And so if I look at the angle, the angle could be bandanas 271 - > don't stay put. 272 - > That's like the high-level angle. 273 - > It's like a category.
274 - > I want you to think of it as an umbrella, right? 275 - > There are many different ways we can say that thing. 276 - > Here are a few examples. 277 - > Hook number one could be how many times have you retied your 278 - > dog's bandana on a single walk?
279 - > Another one, you tie the bandana, your dog shakes it, and 280 - > now it looks like a necklace. 281 - > Another one, POV, the bandana made it to the the bandana 282 - > actually didn't make it to the end of the driveway. 283 - > Another one, number four, your your dog isn't isn't too wild 284 - > for a bandana, the bandana just wasn't built to stay on. 285 - > Okay, number five, if your dog's bandana spends more time around 286 - > their leg than their neck, this isn't for you.
287 - > So there is so many ways to say the angle. 288 - > So the kind of rule of thumb is if you can say this concept in 289 - > at least 10 or more ways, then it's an angle. 290 - > If you say the thing and there's no other way to say it beyond 291 - > the thing, then it's probably just a hook to a larger angle. 292 - > So I want you to think of angles as almost topical things in 293 - > areas that you can speak to your customers, or kind of like 294 - > buckets.
295 - > And then the hooks are the many different pebbles or things that 296 - > you can put in the buckets. 297 - > And so there's a really good, I did not create this, but there's 298 - > a really good framework that you can use for this. 299 - > And I say I didn't create this because our head of coaching 300 - > community and also who does tons of our marketing, Robert, on our 301 - > team, he created a framework that I want to share with you 302 - > that it actually was really, really good.
303 - > And so, Robert, I love you. 304 - > I stole this for the episode to share with them and share with 305 - > all of our clients uh in the upcoming trainings. 306 - > And it's it's when it comes to finding an angle, I want you to 307 - > think of focus. 308 - > F stands for frustration.
309 - > What are they sick of dealing with? 310 - > So when you're thinking of what kind of angles could I pursue 311 - > with my ads, you would say, what kind of frustration are people 312 - > sick of dealing with that my stuff can help with? 313 - > The O stands for outcome. 314 - > What outcomes do they want, right?
315 - > What is the desired outcome that they would have that my product 316 - > could help solve? 317 - > The C stands for constraint. 318 - > What is actually blocking the customer from making progress? 319 - > Maybe it's like a missing system, a tool.
320 - > There's knowledge, there's some infrastructure, there's 321 - > something that's stopping them or making them feel stuck, even 322 - > though they want some kind of a result. 323 - > The U stands for unspoken cost. 324 - > Like what's helping them stay stuck? 325 - > Like what's the problem that's quietly costing them something?
326 - > Like it could be costing them wasted money, lost time, missed 327 - > opportunities, lower confidence, added stress, or maybe even 328 - > freedom that they have to give up by not solving their problem. 329 - > This is the unspoken cost. 330 - > And the final one is the S in the word focus, which is 331 - > skepticism. 332 - > This is basically the customer's doubt, maybe their distrust or 333 - > or exhaustion because they've tried all these things and it 334 - > just didn't work.
335 - > And basically, this is where the angles you create under 336 - > skepticism is what meets them where they are and gives them a 337 - > reason to consider. 338 - > Like what are the things that they no longer believe that your 339 - > thing could that you could actually create ads around it 340 - > and then help them believe? 341 - > And so I want you to think of focus when you think of angles. 342 - > So I say this because angles are the foundation, they are at 343 - > level one.
344 - > Start to think in terms of angles. 345 - > I'll give you an example. 346 - > For us, an angle that works is being burned by an agency. 347 - > We call it the burned by an agency angle.
348 - > We can say that in so many different ways. 349 - > There are many ways we could say that, and we do because we 350 - > create tons of ads around it, and it works really well for us 351 - > because our customers have felt that. 352 - > And that is a frustration-based, a frustration-based angle. 353 - > So when you think of angles, think of focus, frustration, 354 - > outcome, constraint, unspoken cost, or skepticism.
355 - > That's going to get you going, and you could feed this into AI, 356 - > it'll help you brainstorm more, and then say, what are some 357 - > angles from my ideal customer that is a frustration that my 358 - > product solves? 359 - > Boom. 360 - > You get a lot of high-level ideas. 361 - > And then once you have a high-level idea, kind of like 362 - > bandanas don't stay put on an active dog, then you could go 363 - > deeper and say, what are maybe five specifically unique hooks 364 - > that I could write in like a headline format essentially for 365 - > this thing.
366 - > And then once I write those, I will then move to the next level 367 - > of styles and say, what's one style of ad? 368 - > Like, by the way, there are infinite styles. 369 - > Like styles are just different ways to present your ads within 370 - > a format. 371 - > So like trends come and go, and styles will keep changing.
372 - > So that's why I say they are infinite. 373 - > And like common ones are like founder story, unboxing, 374 - > testimonial, social proof, before and after, which is just 375 - > a comparison, like us versus them. 376 - > Uh, you could have ugly ads, you could have day in the life, 377 - > behind the scenes, green screen, lifestyle, advertorial. 378 - > I mean, there are product demo, there are infinite styles out 379 - > there.
380 - > And honestly, the way that I find a style of an ad that I 381 - > think would do well with certain hooks is I'll just use a tool 382 - > like Atria or the Medads library. 383 - > I'll find some inspiration of that, and then we'll just we'll 384 - > just recreate something with the hook on it. 385 - > If you're doing image, you should use a text to have some 386 - > kind of a hook. 387 - > If you're doing video, it's very easy.
388 - > You just write a different opener for the video. 389 - > You record the video with the opener, but the back half of the 390 - > video is basically the same. 391 - > Just the first five to ten seconds is different. 392 - > And so pick one style, and it depends on what you're you're 393 - > testing.
394 - > You only want to you generally want to focus on one at a time. 395 - > So if you're testing angles, pick one format. 396 - > So like image, again, image is what I start with. 397 - > Pick one style, it could be lifestyle images, then pick 398 - > maybe uh one generic hook, and then pick a lot of different 399 - > angles that you might be able to say it, and then say the angles 400 - > on it.
401 - > Or I'm sorry, each angle will just have one hook because 402 - > you're just trying to test angles. 403 - > So you would create an angle and like one angle could be like, 404 - > hey, the bandanas don't say put on a dog. 405 - > Another angle could be the knot comes untied once you put a 406 - > bandana on. 407 - > Another angle could be it could be that it gets wrinkled and you 408 - > can't unwrinkle it.
409 - > Another one could be, hey, the bandana gets wet and it gets 410 - > really stinky. 411 - > So those are all unique angles, right? 412 - > And when you're angle testing, just come up with whatever you, 413 - > whatever you can think of that's relevant to that. 414 - > And that's your hook, right?
415 - > So just come up with a relevant hook for that angle. 416 - > But once you go test this and you start to find some, you will 417 - > start to find some trends. 418 - > I promise. 419 - > You will start to find trends in some kind of an angle that 420 - > works.
421 - > And then you go deeper in that. 422 - > And so I'm just gonna walk you through an example of like a 423 - > ladder in action here. 424 - > So if I was testing some different angles for Pacific 425 - > Count, I could say maybe there's bandanas, let's say put on a 426 - > dog, they get wrinkled, they get wet and they start to stink, 427 - > they're a pain to tie while the dog is squirming around, and 428 - > then maybe cheap bandanas just wear out and they cost more over 429 - > time.
430 - > Let's say that bandanas don't stay put on a dog wins. 431 - > Well, now the next batch of ads that I launch the next week are 432 - > gonna be with that angle, and I'm gonna go think of all these 433 - > hooks. 434 - > Like I said earlier, how many times have you tried to retie 435 - > it? 436 - > You know, you put it on and they shake it once and it falls down 437 - > like a necklace, et cetera.
438 - > I'd come up with like five different hooks. 439 - > And then I would build in all the ads that I would create, it 440 - > would all be bucketed as like that's the angle, but we would 441 - > have different hooks. 442 - > And if it's an image hook, the images, by the way, they will be 443 - > different, but they will be the same style. 444 - > So let's say when I went to test that hook, I chose lifestyle 445 - > images because we meta still wants diversity.
446 - > So I'm not saying take one image, the same identical image, 447 - > and just change the text. 448 - > That's not what I'm saying. 449 - > What I'm saying is pick a style of ad, like maybe it's a 450 - > lifestyle ad. 451 - > Let's use that for simplicity.
452 - > And you would pick five different lifestyle ads and you 453 - > would overlay the hook in some capacity. 454 - > If it's a video, you would film maybe one video that has the 455 - > bulk of the angle in the video, and then just film like you 456 - > saying the hook five different ways in the beginning, and you 457 - > just slice the beginning of the video. 458 - > Because you're trying to go deeper. 459 - > And as we find what works, then we go to the next level.
460 - > So let's say we went ahead and we tested that and we found, 461 - > hey, you tie the bandana and your dog shakes it once, and now 462 - > it feels like a necklace to them. 463 - > Okay, great. 464 - > That is the hook that works. 465 - > So the next week, that the next test up is styles of ads.
466 - > So we'll go get inspiration when let's say we tested lifestyle 467 - > and we tried this whole problem agitate solve style video, not 468 - > video, image, and then we did like, and then we did a before 469 - > and after, like of before you got the bandana, like and then 470 - > three minutes after, and then maybe we did we did a whole like 471 - > product call, we did like call-outs on the product or 472 - > something like that. 473 - > We had the bandana begin in the middle with a dog and then had 474 - > all kinds of calls.
475 - > Now we're trying styles of ads. 476 - > And let's say that we found that before and after and lifestyle 477 - > limits just did really, really well. 478 - > Now we move to the level four, which is let's see how these 479 - > types of things would do in videos. 480 - > So we would go the next week and start to create some batches of 481 - > lifestyle videos with some voiceover, maybe, and then 482 - > before and after videos.
483 - > And so this is how you can ascend through it. 484 - > Now I will say this generally, you don't need to ascend a ton 485 - > of formats super duper fast. 486 - > And there are and you can test a lot of these as you're kind of 487 - > climbing, you just choose what makes the most sense to keep 488 - > pursuing with. 489 - > Sometimes you'll you might want to just sit, you're gonna 490 - > usually sit on level three with different styles for a good 491 - > while because you could test a boatload of different image 492 - > styles before you have to go create video.
493 - > But if you feel like you're getting some good momentum and 494 - > you have enough that you could go build, then be like, okay, 495 - > great, let's actually go build some different types of videos 496 - > with some styles that we see working. 497 - > And so the the goal is that you want to climb up this, but you 498 - > you everything doesn't work out perfectly as far as like you 499 - > have to go to video. 500 - > Some brands just do better doing only images, by the way.
501 - > Apparel brands, images are like 70%-ish of what apparel brands 502 - > do that are really succeeding at it. 503 - > So so for some people, you just say image and format never 504 - > becomes something you have to ascend through and try different 505 - > videos. 506 - > But the goal is you work your way up. 507 - > If you don't know what an angle is, I'm telling you, if you 508 - > don't have good angles and hooks, it doesn't matter what 509 - > styles, it means your messaging is just gonna be bad and people 510 - > aren't gonna resonate no matter what.
511 - > And if you think that video is the only thing that works for 512 - > you right now, it might be, but maybe it's because when you've 513 - > created images, you haven't really had any solid, true 514 - > angles or hooks that work in images, and video just does a 515 - > little bit better job describing something. 516 - > And so that ends up helping. 517 - > And so I say this because start with angles, images can still be 518 - > a good starting guy. 519 - > Now, some people maybe your product is so difficult to 520 - > understand, it has so much education you can't and you have 521 - > to do videos.
522 - > That's okay. 523 - > That's okay. 524 - > But the goal is start at the lowest, angles, hooks, styles, 525 - > and then go formats. 526 - > And when you're thinking of angles, the biggest piece of 527 - > advice I could give you when you're wondering what you should 528 - > what angles you might be able to go after is think of the word 529 - > focus.
530 - > Frustrations, outcomes, constraints, unspoken costs, or 531 - > skepticisms and things that maybe they no longer believe or 532 - > what would make them skeptical about working with you and then 533 - > or buying from you. 534 - > And then you take those and those, I mean, you have infinite 535 - > angles that you can go after. 536 - > And reminder, I don't consider anything an angle if you can't 537 - > write at least 10 different hooks about that angle. 538 - > Because if you have something that it's like you can only say 539 - > in one way, then that's what I would consider only a hook.
540 - > So this is a simple ad testing uh ladder that you climb. 541 - > It's a way that you can creatively scale by starting 542 - > with the cheapest variable and then moving your way up. 543 - > Again, we like to when we launch our batches, we like to do test 544 - > batches every week. 545 - > So we teach all of our clients every week launch a new batch of 546 - > test ads of at least three to five ads into an ad set in a CBO 547 - > campaign every single week, no matter what.
548 - > And so when we go do this, we just keep testing and testing. 549 - > And you might test angles for a couple weeks, and then you're 550 - > gonna find some hooks, and then you start testing some hooks, 551 - > and then it starts moving into styles, and you'll find that 552 - > this gets easier and easier as you climb the ladders. 553 - > Now, if you're listening to this and you're like, hey, Josh, this 554 - > is really awesome. 555 - > I would love to see what this looks like in real life, how do 556 - > you apply this stuff to my business?
557 - > Then you just need to click below and go to the work with us 558 - > page and see what it looks like because we teach our clients how 559 - > to do all kinds of stuff. 560 - > And I didn't even talk about the three tiers. 561 - > There are three tiers of ad spend and what we do for them. 562 - > If you're under 300 a day, if you're 300 to 2000 a day, and if 563 - > you're over$2,000 a day in spend, your frameworks and stuff 564 - > will start to shift.
565 - > The campaign structure, some of the settings, how you make 566 - > moves, the creative ladder I talked about right now, or the 567 - > ad testing ladder is going to remain the same. 568 - > But then there are some additional levels based on where 569 - > you're at. 570 - > And so if you're listening, you found this valuable, two things. 571 - > Number one, like this podcast, give us a give us a star rating, 572 - > it helps us a lot.
573 - > Number two, click the link below, go to eCommerceally.com 574 - > slash work with us and just see what it kind of looks like to 575 - > become one of our clients and have access to our team, have 576 - > access to me, and have access to the training and the systems 577 - > that we use to help scale e-commerce brands. 578 - > But you've been listening to the e commerce alley podcast. 579 - > Thank you.
580 - > I know it wasn't Dale, it was just me today. 581 - > I hope that's okay. 582 - > And uh, and I'll see you in the next episode.
Other episodes covering the same guests and topics, from across The B2B Podcast Index.
How ElevenLabs Turns Feature Launches Into a Growth Engine - Luke HarriesSub Club by RevenueCat · on Meta ads88 / 100
Steve Hoyek (Journable): Building an AI calorie tracker app to over 600,000 usersLevels Podcast · on Meta ads85 / 100
110: Office Hours | Paid Media Budgeting, Forecasting & Goal-Setting with the Optidge TeamThe Digital Marketing Mentor · on Meta ads83 / 100
Scaling To $10M Nearly Destroyed Me with Taki MooreScaleX™ Insider Podcast · on Contrarian positioning81 / 100
Inside The Ad Account: How To Do Creative Testing In 2026Scalability School · on Creative diversity81 / 100
Gamification for Digital MarketingThe Digital Marketing Podcast · on Meta ads80 / 100TEA 251: ChatGPT vs Claude vs Gemini (Which AI Is Best For Business?)TEA 250: We Stopped All Work Every Friday To Learn AI (Was It Worth It?)TEA 249: How To 10X Your Ecommerce Brand (Logical Vs Exponential Scale)TEA 248: The Leadership Skill Nobody Teaches (ft. Dr. Mark Matthews)TEA 247: This Client Lost $72,000 Because of AI