Synthetic Graphite, Circular Carbon, and the Future of Critical Materials

Speaker A: Welcome to the Green Insider Powered by E Renewable. Each and every podcast host, Mike Neamer will bring you energy experts to help you better understand the renewable and sustainability space. Education's important to us because it's important to you, the listener. Now, here's Mike Niemer.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Green Insider podcast powered by Erenewable. Hello, I'm Ron Colver, and on today's show, Mike Neamer, CEO of E Renewable, is joined with returning guests Geraldo Andrade, North America Commercial and Logistics Director with Grupo Uni Metal. But before we jump into their conversation, here's a brief word from E Renewable COO and Mike's better half, Ann Neamer.

Speaker C: Ann Neimer here, COO of E Renewable. We know today whether you're a public company, private equity or privately held company, ESG and sustainability are important to your company at E Renewable. We can help you achieve some of those goals. If you have any questions or need any assistance with regards to reaching your sustainability goals, please Visit us@erenewable.com to learn more. As always, thank you for listening to the Green Insider Powered by E Renewable.

Speaker B: Thanks, Anne. And now here's Mike with the North American commercial and Logistics director for Grupo Uni Metal, Geraldo Andrade.

Speaker D: Welcome to the Green Insider podcast Powered B Renewable. I'm Mike Neamer. Today I have a return guest to the show, Geraldo Andrete. How are you?

Speaker E: I'm fine, Mike. It's a pleasure to be here after so many years. It's a pleasure to be back.

Speaker D: Yours is right. We were surprising ourselves talking in the beginning. It's been four years since you've been on the show and it seems like yesterday. I can hardly believe it's been that long.

Speaker E: It's unbelievable and it's amazing what happened in the last four years that make more important that demonstrate the importance of this podcast.

Speaker D: Absolutely. You were on episode 143 before. Now you're going to be in June and you'll probably be episode 332. So, uh, we're almost to 190 episodes later, so that's kind of crazy when it just by itself. But anyway, Geraldo, ladies and gentlemen, for those of you who haven't heard his original podcast, he's the North American commercial and logistics director for Uni Metals. Uh, they specialize in synthetic graphite, correct?

Speaker E: Correct.

Speaker F: Okay.

Speaker D: Uh, so with that said, in your first podcast, we talked a lot about synthetic graphite, but as you said correctly in the intro here, so much has happened in the four years since you've been on, I decided to take this a little bit different direction and ask more questions with the girls to what the markets are doing now and the economic impact different things have from tariffs to politics, so on and so forth. For the listeners to hear your side of it. Uh, coming from the person from Brazil making synthetic graphite, coming to North America and trying to play the game here for a product that we really really need with regards to all of our batteries and steel mills and everything else. So we're going to get into all that conversation. Is that okay with you?

Speaker E: Perfect.

Speaker D: Great. Let's just jump, let's just jump right in my friend. You know, uh, the heavy industry and manufacturing are under immense mounting pressure globally to cut emissions and to improve their ESG performance. As you know from your vantage point leading the North America commercial operations and logistics for your company. Where are you seeing the biggest friction points for industrial companies trying to balance the day to day operation with aggressive decarbonization goals?

Speaker E: Mike, it's important to observe the biggest problem is the money. If a cleaner raw material costs too much, a uh, factory cannot uh, compete with cheap imports from China. Synthetic graphite is a critical material to produce iron, steel and battery materials in the US So that's if you use uh, bad or cheap alternative materials, it mess up with the furnace, the metal, the metal takes longer to melt and you get more waste and you actually end up using more energy. So the alternative is not to buy new expensive machines but instead to use a higher quality synthetic graphite. That graphite is using many metal casting industries for foundries like Carl Pillar, John Deere, uh, Girdha, ust, Nucor, they used to adjust the carbon content of the metals so it makes the furnace run better, use less energy, cuts emissions right away and without hurting profits.

Speaker D: Now I know from our first uh, podcast by using the synthetic graphite you get a standardized product that comes out that you can always count on. It's always going to be the same, isn't it?

Speaker E: Exactly, exactly. There are two alternatives for that, uh, applications natural graphite or synthetic graphite. The natural graphite us produced natural graphite but natural graphite from mines that have a huge environmental impact and on top of that the quality varies a lot. So that's the advantage of using synthetography. So uh, that's the synthetic graphite is important because it keeps the quality stable and has less impact in terms of like uh, minings or similar uh, activities.

Speaker D: You know, I want to dive into the circular carbon and material management side of things. Unimetal you guys have a deep experience and in adding value to the petroleum coke and supporting the steel and aluminum sectors, how are you seeing the circular economy practices evolve in the, in the metal space? You know, what does uh, the circular carbon system actually look like in the, in heavy manufacturing?

Speaker E: Mhm. Mike M. That's a very interesting good question. And related with uh, the, the last uh, uh conversation, the last comment that we did, you asked me about the advantages of using synthetography. Uh, it's important to observe uh, that uh, uh we'll make the connection about the two topics. In a tough market, recycling must save you money. Circular carbon means that taking a byproduct of a wire refinery like petroleum coke, that's the feedstock to produce synthetic graphite and clean it up so factors can reuse it. So if instead of using natural graphite from mines, the plants, the founders and steel mills in the US or um, aluminum producers, they use synthetic graphite, they will have less environment impact. Not, not only because they not be mining using mines with a huge environment back, but they will make this concept of uh, uh, a circular uh uh, uh carbon uh happen because the feedstock to produce uh synthetic graphite is a byproduct from the refinery process. So a refinery takes petroleum and produce gasoline and diesel and as uh a byproduct produce green petroleum coke. That's the feedstock to produce synthetic graphite.

Speaker D: In our economy in general, the more we can recycle, the more stable our economy will be. Will you not agree with that?

Speaker E: Absolutely, absolutely. And we will saving energy, we will be uh, uh more efficient, more efficient as a society. So it's important to understand that we are uh, in a breakthrough moment. Everybody's discussing about AI and a huge immense needs of energy. So we need to recycle, we need to adopt this concept of the circular uh carbon to improve the efficiency of our processes.

Speaker D: A lot of people focus on the technology, uh part of the energy transition, but rarely on the people themselves. Right. I know at Unimetal you actively are looking at university partnerships to address workforce upscaling from um, where you sit. What are the most critical knowledge gaps facing the industrial executive and engineering teams today when they're trying to execute these sustainable practices.

Speaker E: Mike, that's such a critical and important question. I uh have a few things to comment about that uh, you know, matter. We are trying to build uh partnerships, we're trying to develop projects with some universities, with some uh companies that uh, we are trying to startups that uh, from recent uh graduated students to develop new Technologies. I just came from China, uh, from uh, the biggest uh, battery fair, ah, global battery fair in China. And I was surprised and I participated in a similar conference in the west in Florida two months ago. Oh my God. And the comparison is always huge. The number of students that I saw there participating in the fears hundreds with developing scientific projects. So uh, we do believe that science must be an important uh, breakthrough to uh, help uh, this country, the US and the whole world to develop new technologies and to make process, uh, more efficient with less environmental impact so we can serve better the society.

Speaker D: You know, universities face a tough struggle right now because as they, their technologies have made AI, they've also made it tougher for the college graduate to get a job. And now what's everybody major in? The analysts aren't needed like they used to be back in uni's day. Right now AI is the analyst. So university is going to have to come up with a way to develop a career path for professionals who want to be in this space. But that first job is going to be a different first job.

Speaker E: Absolutely. Mike, you're very, you're so right. There's a lot of challenges involving AI. Uh, now basically I'm uh, speaking, I speak in several different conference. We speak in a conference in Chicago in October 16th and in Stanford on the 17th. And everybody's talking about AI, AI. But there's a lot of challenges that we need to face and you need to discuss how to solve that in terms of energy, uh, water consumption and especially how to use the AI more responsible way. Uh, respecting the individuals and AI must serve the society, must build value to the society. And so the most important things are us, ah, the human beings. So the technology needs to serve us and not the opposite.

Speaker D: You know, having a footprint that spans both North America and Latin America kind of puts you in a unique perspective. You know, how do the regional approaches to sustainability differ between the two North America and Latin America? And do you think that an open education platform could serve as a bridge to give these companies global ESG visibility?

Speaker E: That's another very important question. And I think Mark, you're, I'm following you. For, for several years now, erenewable have been doing um, important contribution for the industry environment or for the society. And I think that this is very important to make the connection and to develop uh, programs to incentive university, uh, to incentive uh, employees. Ah, sometimes I work with the main industries in the U.S. we supply the main industries in the U.S. so I'm visit plants like Caterpillar, John Deere, U.S. steel, all the funds are all steel mills. And I see the difficulties they have to hire new uh, engineers, new employees and sometimes some of them are very good in running a plant but sometimes, but eventually they have difficulties to run to do that with uh, making the connections with uh environmental uh concern focus. So I think it's important to develop uh programs, alternatives or train them to make that connection work better to make that better chemistry, to uh, understand chemistry supply chains and costs all at once.

Speaker D: Well do you see, even though Brazil and the US are on the same continent, do you see, do you see uh the entire continent becoming eventually aligned in ESG matters? Or do you think everybody's going to stay separate with regards to we're one country, you're one country, you're one country and not really steady and find a common mean for everybody.

Speaker E: Well uh, now uh, in US west rules now favor traditional fossil fuels. Uh, if you go to Brazil now you see a lot of uh, EVs much more than uh, here in the US I was uh, impressed. Uh I visited China 10 years ago and I was so surprised when I saw that how they developed not only the EVs but the infrastructure, the bridge, the electric distribution system. Uh Brazil unimatal supply some battery material producers in the US and also in China. There are at least three big battery material producers in China that uh, uh consume our uh product there. We export to us from Brazil and export to China as well. So uh, it's important to the effect that I have the feeding both countries so I can see the difference between days them. But uh, I think that we need

Speaker A: to

Speaker E: develop more uh connections and synergy between countries so we can, the US can take advantage of the feedstock produced in Brazil. And I believe that we can do that in more uh, synergic way instead of uh, uh we don't. I see more cooperation than competition between countries and you need to find a way to improve that synergy.

Speaker D: You know, with the current US administration pivoting away from the traditional fossil fuel or traditional going back to the traditional fossil fuels and going away from the incentives on wind and solar and EVs and so on and so forth. You're really seeing that discrepancy come into play now that you've just discussed. So you think we're going to have to wait for the next administration before we can take another step forward again or uh, what are you seeing from your side of your view?

Speaker E: I'm a technical guy so I don't have uh, uh enough uh, knowledge about politics. To make comments about that. But what I see what we can see in our daily lives just go to a gas station, you see the gas prices. So what your pro, what your podcast is trying to show on the last years so that you are right what you're being sharing the knowledge and the uh content that you, you might have been sharing the last years just to go to check what's happening in the world now. The how the energy costs are impacting industries. Not only in the US we have operations in Europe. European economy is dying because of the energy costs. So we definitely need to discuss the renewable sources. Uh all these concepts related with uh cycle economy and renewables more uh seriously. And uh, we understand that and more than that it's important to understand that AI we consume huge amount of energy. Uh AI data centers consume 10 times more than a regular data center. So we need a lot of energy. We cannot dispose of energy but we need to find alternatives that we can survive in a more sustainable way.

Speaker D: The US have locked down in the steel section 301 tariffs on Chinese carbon and critical minerals including synthetic and natural graphite. Given that China controls over 80% of the global graphite processing, how uh critical is it? Is a domestic supply of high purity synthetic graphite for the US Steel mills, foundries and battery material producers trying to avoid cost spikes?

Speaker E: This is a very critical and strategic question for the U.S. uh, as I mentioned I was in a battery conference in Florida two months ago and myself that's a common sense there. There's a huge gap in terms of uh synthetography need. Synthetography is needed to produce battery because it's uh, the most important component to, to produce the battery anodes. There are a lot of discussions about the cathodes. A battery has an anode and a positive pole anode and cathode. There are a lot of discussions about cathodes, lithium, magnesium, uh, sodium, whatever. But in terms of anodes there's that there's basically one solution. So far they're trying to improve with some blends, some uh, additives. But the most important thing so far, the most important material so far is a synthetic graphite. It's cheap and efficient because the graphite among um, its properties conduce electricity. So there is a gap projected to 2030 of uh, 650,000 metric tons of uh graphite in the US so there's a deficit. So US need to solve that. We need to work that together to otherwise that will impact the develop of the alternatives. Because us now is discussing AI but they I need data centers. Data centers need energy. They need battery energy storage systems to storage the energy and battery energy storage systems, farms or structures, they need batteries. And to produce batteries we need anode, so we need graphite. So that's why we need to solve that. And to produce graphite in the US it demands a lot of energy. And data centers uh, also needs energy. And there's a lack of uh, energy availability and energy distribution systems in the west. So we need to discuss that more

Speaker D: strategically in the U.S. leave that topic alone on um, how you answer that could be an entire podcast just discussing the energy situation that we're in there. But on to our next question here. When the media discussed modernization of the infrastructure or the energy transition, they focus on end products like EV cars, car factories or wind turbines. You set in a further upstream. Can you peel back the layers on why high purity synthetic graphite and premium carbon products are the invisible structural backbone to both the traditional meteorology and emerging battery uh, material producers?

Speaker E: Okay, so US have been trying to develop alternative sources of uh, energy like solar and wind. Uh, we don't have sun and wind all the time, so we need batteries to storage energy that generated during the day or when you have winds. So to store that energy we need batteries. And uh, as I mentioned the batteries will need anodes and anodes, you need synthetography, uh, AI data centers, uh, they need battery energy storage systems to store the energy to supply because the energy in data centers they have peaks of consumption. So the energy needs to be stored to uh, supply the energy needed in those peaks. So that's why we need synthetography and we need to work in projects to supply the gap that is projected in the US for the next next years because we not have. So as you mentioned before in a question before, nowadays 80% of all synthetic graphite produced in the world is produced in China. When I came to US when uh, working for Universal, uh, we observed that the majority of uh, the synthetic graphite consumed by foundries and steel mill, all the iron steel production in the US was reliant on Chinese products. So I understand there must be certain level of cooperation between countries but it's important to have strategic alternatives to not rely uh, only in important products. We need to offer uh, strategic uh, supply for that product here in the US as well.

Speaker D: Well, uh, my last and final question for you as we get to the end of our podcast here is Unimetal has expanded significantly through some strategic international acquisitions including CS additive in Germany and uh, Larpen. Yes, I Can't say the word. How do you say that word?

Speaker E: Metallurgical.

Speaker D: Metallurgical? Yeah, Larva metallurgical here in the US That's a tongue twister. In a fragmented world where Europe has hyper strict carbon tax and the US has a fossil forward approach, how does uh, having an asset footprint in both regions strengthen your ability to support American manufacturers?

Speaker E: Perfect question. So uh, the world now is facing a uh, huge volatility and stability moment. Uh, since I joined Unimeto four years ago, we acquired one business and one company in the US we acquired the Soko business from Superior Graphite and we also acquired Larpen here in the US and last year we acquired CS additives in German. Uh, as we have presence in all those countries and we have a um, uh, very strong footprint in Brazil, in Argentina, in Mexico, we supply Canada, we export product to more than 30 different countries. So we understand, we are observing now that our strength to have presences in all of those markets turn us more, less vulnerable to those uh, volatile and turbulent moments that we are living now. Uh, we are better prepared for that. We did our homework. We have a better infrastructure and we feel more capable to face these challenges, these important challenges that we are living now.

Speaker D: Well, my friend, it's been a pleasure as always talking to you. Uh, Geraldo Andrete, thank you so much for joining me on the Green Insider today.

Speaker E: Yeah, Mike, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I keep following your podcast and I also recommend for everybody that do the same because you always bringing some um, important contribution to our society. You are doing a very important good job for us. Thank you very much for your extremely important work.

Speaker D: Well, I'm just a, I'm just the outlet for wise men and women like you to come on the show and educate our listeners and listeners. As you know, I try to encourage you to learn something new every day. And so today we were responsible for the lesson you learned. Have a great rest of your day and thank you for listening to the Green Insider.

Speaker B: Once again, a big thanks to Geraldo Andrade for joining the Green Insider podcast today. If you want to learn more about Erenewable or find all of our past shows, Visit us@erenewable.com whether you are a regular listener. This is your first time tuning into the Green Insider podcast, hit that subscribe button and never miss out on another episode. Remember to leave us a five star rating and spread the word of the Green Insider podcast. Powered by Erenewable, we make going green easier.

Speaker F: Sam.