EP #03: Authentic Leadership Wins With John Bishoff

Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Executive Edge podcast. I'm, um, Jamiah Canley, founder of Potential Unleashed Consulting. I sit down with founders, executives, and high performers to unpack what really gives leaders their executive edge. In a world where everyone has access to the same tools and information, what actually separates the exceptional from the average? Hey, welcome to today's episode, everyone. I am very, very excited for today's conversation. I have with us John Bischoff from Canopy Mortg. John and I have already had some great kind of pre call conversations, so I'm really looking into getting into several topics. But John, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker B: Happy to be here, Jamar.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here. John and I were just talking a little bit about location, and I was sharing. Being here in the Pacific Northwest, we are enjoying some pretty nice weather. How's the weather down there with you right now?

Speaker B: Uh, you know what? It's perfect. I think it's supposed to be about 80 degrees today.

Speaker A: Wow. Okay.

Speaker B: 80 degrees, blue skies. It'll be a great weekend.

Speaker A: I'm gonna be honest with you, John. I'm kind of wishing I didn't ask you that.

Speaker B: Come on down. You're close.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm like, it's nice out here that you're like, 80 degrees and blue skies. I'm like, okay, we're not that nice. Right? Well, John, uh, thank you again for being here. And what I would love to do is just start off by having you tell us a little bit about yourself, about the work that you do and, ah, at Canopy and your role there.

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. I'm the head of hr. I've been here at Canopy Mortgage for about six and a half years or six years or so. Um, Canopy has been, is a great place to work. Um, we've grown quite a bit just even in the last year. Well, in this year we've hired 118 new people. So. And you know, for a mortgage company, um, in today's economy, that's, I think, pretty incredible. Last year we hired about 250.

Speaker A: Wow. So, and, and John, is that spread across a specific geographical region, footprint, or is that kind of all over the. The nation?

Speaker B: We're all over the nation. And so one of our biggest, um, selling points, I guess I would say, is that we get a lot of our loan officers to come to Canopy because we give them the opportunity to be, um, to run a business the way they would like. They need to obey the law and be profitable. Um, but if they're, if they're doing those Two things. Then they can come and do really well and we give them pretty good margins they can pass on to their borrowers as well. So it's a really good, It's a really great company.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like it. And you hit on several things that I would love to just even from that, that I would love to jump into. Because, you know, as you mentioned, growing at a time like this in this industry, as far as mortgages, I've got to ask John, what is the secret sauce? How are you growing at the rate that you are growing? Like, what do you think it is?

Speaker B: I think there's a couple of things. Um, we have a really amazing culture. Um, and we really pride ourselves in being transparent to our loan officers. I think the mortgage industry itself, um, there's a lot of, there's not a lot of transparency between the corporate teams and the loan officers. Out on the, out on the grounds doing the work, out on the ground doing the work. And so, um, that transparency is really important to us. And so we let all of our loan officers know what they're going to get when they get here, what they're going to, what they expect, uh, what to expect. And we do a really good job of trying to fulfill that promise. Are we perfect at it? No, but we try really hard to create that environment where they can come and bring their teams and be profitable. Um, and I think the other thing that we have that's a little bit of our secret sauce is um, our proprietary loan origination software. Um, it basically takes from the point of sale all the way through to the close of a mortgage. It's one platform. And um, because of that platform, um, we've in some ways, um, met created the loan process and we've had, we haven't created it, but we've redesigned it so that it's more like a manufacturing line change. Some of the job titles that are standard in the industry. Um, and um, it's, we're really efficient so we can manufacture a loan for less, for less than our competitors can. And I think that's also the other piece. So the transparency and then our pricing is really good.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, you hit on two things just in that piece. And so thank you for that. That are really, really interesting and I think appealing to this audience because I find that sometimes organizations, they're in an either or space and they think that their success comes from either having a really good product and therefore because the product is so great, they don't spend as much time focused on the service aspect or the culture aspect or some people think that if we just have a great culture, you know, then that fixes everything. Like we treat them so well. Uh, yeah, but the business still may not do as well if you are also refining the, the product. So I would love to dive in because especially you talk about, you know, bringing on several hundred people and doing that all throughout the, the country. What, what would you say is the importance of culture to an organization and especially to. Well, let's just start there.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think culture is really, really important. Right. I mean, and culture is interesting because especially where we're at, we have a corporate culture. Right. We have about 115 people here at our corporate office. But then we have independent. They're not independent because within the mortgage industry, they all have to be W2. So our loan officers are W2. All the people that support the support staff are all W2. But we have branches spread across the country and each one of those branches may have a little bit of their own independent culture as well. Right. And so, um, I think culture is really in some ways what will drive the organization. But I think you're right. You can't have. If you just focus only on culture and you don't really think about your product and how your product, the product market fit, you're also not going to be really successful. And so I think from a culture perspective, we have to learn what our employees really want to be successful. Um, and I think especially as we move into an age of AI, our managers are going to be less and less doing the day to day, and they really are going to have to be understanding the needs of our people and focusing on those needs. They're going to need to communicate, make eye contact, understand how the people are doing. Right. And create an environment where the people can come to work and thrive. And, and as we were talking, uh, previously, um, when that happens, they, you know, if they can thrive at work, that spillover effect into the home life will be a lot more positive. There'll be better drivers on the way home from work and they'll be better husbands, they'll be better mothers, they'll be better, um, spouses. Right. Um, better citizens in their community. And so, um, culture is really important. But I think it does start what there. It starts with the manager in a lot of ways. Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. No, thank you for that. You know, one of the things we often talk about is that it's a both and approach when we talk about culture, meaning culture needs to be done at a high level, holistically for an organization. And I hear you speaking to that. And then what you also just mentioned is. And people experience the culture through their direct supervisor. Right. So you can have a phenomenal corporate culture, the right mission statement, the right vision, the right policies and practices, and people experience the culture through the direct supervisor. Right. I love the fact that you tied both of those in of like, here's the things that we're doing here at uh, you know, a headquarters. And also, you know, recognizing that that starts with managers and how that's being played out throughout the organization. You, you mentioned something else as well. Gosh, there's so many different places that we could go with the conversation. But you mentioned something else that just really kind of struck me as you were talking about AI and so would love to, to know a little bit about your, your thoughts around AI and what you're, what you're doing. Because you mentioned that human element. And it reminded me of a conversation I had years ago. Currently we have four children and this conversation happened prior to me even having children. My oldest is 15 by the way. And so this is like 20 something years ago. And I was speaking with someone and they said, listen closely. They said, when I was coming up and my children were young, I recognized that their advantage was going to be technology. So I got my kids plugged into technology as early as possible because I knew that that was going to be a differentiating advantage for them. And what he said to me, and again, this is prior to me, you know, I don't even think I was married at the time, right. So I'm not even thinking about children or anything. I'm probably like 24 or something at the time. And uh, he goes for you though. He said, the way that technology is moving for you, what is going to give your children the advantage of is being able to look people in the eye and have conversations. He said for his generation that was second nature. That's just what you did. You sat around the table. Your kids just naturally knew how to do those things. Technology was the, the new thing that was kind of out of touch for people. He said, for you and your generation, it's going to be so important that you are teaching your children how to sit down, have a conversation across the table, how to look someone in the eye, how to connect with people in that human level. And when you made that statement about AI, it just made me, it made me remember that. So I was just out of curiosity, how are you all helping? And let me just say this as well as we're Working with different organizations. This is something that I'm hearing in different organizations that there may be a little bit of fear and resistance to technology and the advancements. So John, how are you helping your team maybe prepare for the advancements in technology and AI? As far as the mindset piece like you kind of mentioned, of staying tapped into that human element, Would you mind speaking to that?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'd love to. Um, something that's interesting is when you talk to. We have a lot, kind of our front line are a lot of recent college graduates and a lot of them don't even know really what life was like with the telephone in the house. Right. Um, everybody has cell phones, so they don't really even know that a phone would ring and the whole house would run to the phone and answer, try to, you know, be the first to answer the phone. Um, and so, um, it's, that's been really interesting to try to train our, our 20 something year olds to actually get on the phone and have a conversation over the phone. Right. Because to them a phone conversation is something that's scheduled, that's planned.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, oh, hey, when are we going to, when are we going to talk? Let's talk on the phone at this time? No, for us, uh, it's like, hey, let's pick up the phone, I'm just going call you. Right. And so I think even just things that are simple like that we, you know, we try to train our employees that when there's a problem, let's not send 50 emails back and forth, let's pick up the phone, let's have a conversation. Right. Um, and because we have a lot of our employee base spread out across the country, a lot of times it's, let's get on a, on a, on a Google call or Zoom call or you know, and have a face to face conversation, if you will. Similar to, I mean, what we're doing right now. Right. And learning how to do that. But then I think the other thing is when you have those opportunities to actually be in the same room together. Right. We are teaching them. Um, yes. Look, this is how you present yourself, this is how you talk, this is you ask questions, you make eye contact. Right. Um, and that's something I'm even trying to teach my kids because in some ways they're, you know, my oldest is 14, my youngest is 9. So we're in the same boat. We've got, I've got three, so you got one more. But, um, trying to teach our kids to make that eye Contact as well. Right. Because they're now even in a different technology space than the 20 somethings are. And so it's about teaching them to really have those human skills. Because AI in some ways is going to take a lot of jobs. But I also think, as we've seen in history with technology, there will also be new opportunities for different jobs that don't exist. And so I think people are afraid of what's going to happen, but I think in the end what's really going to matter is that ability to connect, that ability to see somebody as another person and to really like, feel with them, um, to bond with them. And that's not to say that you, um, that that's sometimes a hard thing as a manager to do as well. Right. Because you've got to connect and you've got to understand where your employees are at. At the same time, it's, it's hard to get too close.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because you also, at some point may have to let them go. Right. There's also that transaction that people come to work. The organization isn't a nonprofit, and some of them are nonprofits, but they're not there just to give people money and a job. Yeah, there is a job to be done. And um, so I think people need to realize that there is a job to be done. They need to do their job, but at the same time connect and try to. And there's, there's a bunch of different directions we could take this. Right. Um, but I think that's fundamental is trying to then understand where, where is that boundary? But how do I treat my employees, really? As people.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And how do I, how do I in some ways love them? Right.

Speaker A: Wow. John, I'm already seeing a, a second episode because I really do think that that topic, what you just said, I think is a huge topic that a lot of people would really appreciate and benefit from diving into, which is how do you set that, how do you set those boundaries and yet still maintain, build and maintain connection? And I just, as you were talking, it just made me think about so many different leaders that I've coached, um, along the way. Who. That's a big challenge for them, especially when they're newer to management and leadership. Because John was my peer two weeks ago, you know, and so what do I, what do I do now? Or maybe I'm new to the organization and I want to. I see, uh, new leaders come into organizations and they, they normally take this either or approach, going back to either or rather than both. And, and that is either I'm going to just try to build these deep personal relationships with people which sometimes come back to kind of bite them in the butt later on because that, that boundary is not clear. So now when I need to hold someone accountable. Right. It's kind of blurred and. Or they come in and they say, nope, I'm not building any relationships with anyone because one day I might have to hold them accountable or let them go. And so it's like this either or approach. So I know we have some other things we're going to talk about today, but I think that that is such a worthy conversation. Um, so I'll just ask this. We won't necessarily dive all the way into it today, but do you have any tips that you might just give someone just briefly on how to think through that process?

Speaker B: Yeah. You know what? I think one of the things to think about is how often are they doing things frequent and meaningful one on ones. M. Um, I think those are really simple to do, but I don't think people do them enough.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and if they're doing frequent and I say meaningful, um, intentionally. Right. Um, and some of those one on ones you may actually, um, not even talk about work. You might be talking about, you know, a challenge at home. But I think that's important. Some days you may not be talking about anything at home and just be talking about, um, you know, giving people meaningful feedback on what they can do to improve, uh, ah, as employees. But I think if you have frequent and meaningful conversations one on ones. And that's not just like showing up to their desk and having. Hey. Oh, hey Jamon, how are you? Right. Like it's, this is scheduled, it's on the, it's on the calendar. Every Tuesday at 3:00 we're going to talk. It may be 15 minutes, it may be an hour, maybe 90 minutes sometimes. Right. Depending on the organizational needs. Depending on my needs. Depending on your needs. Um, depending on the projects, you talk through the projects, you talk through everything. Uh, how people are doing it kind of helps level that playing field a little bit. It keeps things formal, yet at the same time allows for a huge opportunity that's open to direct the conversation wherever it needs to go.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. I know you said here's one kind of simple tip. But I think that's so meaningful, John, honestly, just as you're speaking about that, I'm just flashing back in my mind about great leaders that I've had and even my own leadership style. And that's something that I've. I'VE I've done is try to do those meaningful, intentional one on ones. And I as you just started talking about, I could easily see, especially like you said, if you're doing them frequently enough, it really can help establish that both and relationship. Because some days we're going to talk about, we're going to check in. Hey, how was the birthday party? You know, how, how's, how did that go? How. Hey, how's everything going with, you know, your par. I know you mentioned that mom had a fall last, you know, checking in on that. And then also because you're doing them frequently enough, some of those conversations are probably going to be 90% business. And so I could see how those can really help create that balance for people where you're building connection and relationship. But because you're doing them frequently enough, and I thought that was key, what you mentioned was the frequency because you're absolutely right. Intentional and frequency. If I only drop by your, your desk. Right. And I only do that every so often and it's not intentional, you might just get the uh, personal connection. Hey John, just dropping by. How are things? How was the weekend? Everything else. Right. Because I only do this once a month so I don't have the time to really create the balance that. Yeah, we're coming back to that one on another episode.

Speaker B: I'd love to. Yeah, I'd love to dive into that more.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, one of the questions I did want to get to though because I again, I thought that this was just so, so important and resonated and you uh, mentioned helping managers begin to make the shift from a management mindset to a strategic thinking mindset. And as I was sharing with you, you know, right now, um, I'm. Someone has recently approached me about coaching them because the feedback that they have received in their last several interviews is that, hey, great, very strong leader, very strong middle manager inside of an organization. People think very highly of them, but they're not showing up in those interviews as a strategic thinker, meaning that they don't feel like they're. They have yet transitioned into being able to think about the organization. They're more thinking about their team. So I'm just going to throw that over to you and what are you all doing and how are you helping people move through that?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, I think that's a really hard thing. Right. Um, and something again in the pre conversation that we had is so often our employees, we promote them to managers because they're really good at creating a widget or they're really Good at solving X problem as an employee. Right. And they're fantastic at it. But being a strategic thinker is very different than being able to manufacture or produce a widget. Right. It's a different skill set. Um, and so I think a lot of times, um, you said something really important was that they don't think about the organization and their team's position within the organization. They can only think about their team and what their team is doing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I uh, in order for you, for people to take that step from middle manager to executive or vice president level, it has to be a jump. A jump, Excuse me, a jump from, hey, I only know about my team and what my team is doing to the broader context of what's going on in the organization.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: How do my team's goals actually support the progression of the organization? And more importantly, how are the, what are the organization's goals? Right. If I don't know what the organization's goals are, if I can't sit down and articulate in a one on one conversation with somebody, if they're asking what is our company goal, what are we trying to do? That's a problem. Right. You'll never be able to think strategically. Um, and you'll never get that role. And so I think you have to be willing to take your team and then elevate it and say, this is what my team's doing for the greater good of the organization and this is what we have to do to drive the company forward. You know, some of us work for cost centers. HR is a cost center and you have to understand your position within the organization. What does that cost center do? How does it add value? Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and then how do you help the company actually achieve goals? Um, and you really have to be able to understand the nuances of the business, its place within the broader industry and even more macroeconomically. Um, where are things, what's going on? How are interest rates going to impact your day to day job? What does the Fed say about this? Right. Um, what's the, what's going on in the stock market? How's that going to negatively impact or positively impact your industry? Right. Um, you have to understand that and be willing to pay attention to that in order to then understand your place in the organization.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you, John. That makes such great sense about helping people start to think about how their team fits into the larger organization. So often I think people get very focused on just their team because that's, and again, it makes them a really effective Leaders for their team. Right. Like, and so they're doing great work because they are very focused on their team. They can tell you what their team needs are. They can tell you about all the personalities on their team. They can tell you everything about their team. And sometimes it stops there. So I love those tips that you gave about starting to think about how does the team fit into the organization, how are the things that we're doing impacting the organization's goals? So thank you for that. I think that's really helpful.

Speaker B: Another thing too, that I hear a lot is to take that, uh, next level is you have to learn to delegate. And so many of our leaders thrive on the details and living in the weeds. And I think you have to understand the weeds, but you don't have to get into them. Right. You kind of have to understand what's going on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you don't need to be the one to solve. You don't have to put on your firefighter hat and go down in and, and try to fight the fire. You, as a, as an executive, your job is to understand that there's a fire.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you need to understand that the fire is being put out, what steps are being taken to fight the fire. But you cannot get in there and put your firefighters hat on. You have to stay high level because the second that you jump back in and you continue to do the day to day, you just get right. Sucked back in. And so I think it's important to be willing to roll up your sleeves. I'm actually not saying that because you do need to roll up your sleeves and sit down with your team and really dive in and understand. But I think people, because they're comfortable in, they're comfortable in that space of fighting fires, it's really easy for, oh, I got this. And they just jump back in instead of delegating those responsibilities to their team. Um, and so I think that's another thing that you really have to be willing to stop doing.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. John, I think you hit the nail on the head. I, I work with and get to talk to so many leaders and when I ask them about strategies so often I hear I have no time to think about strategy or to be a strategic leader because I spend my days putting out fires and it's like the number. When I ask them, if you had a magic wand, what would you do? They would say, I would spend more time doing the higher level thinking around this. But I just can't. Jmad. I just can't. Because by the time that I open up email, hop on my first teams call or walk through the door. I spend my time putting out fires. And I think what you hit on, which was that delegation piece is so key. And so, uh, yeah, thank you for that. I guess. Uh, a follow up question to that. Gosh, I have so many follow up questions to that. Actually let me organize my, my thoughts around this and I'll actually put several of them out there. We don't have to jump into them all right now. But one question would be how does one begin to move, how does one begin to move into delegating more? Again this might be for episode two when we come back to this. Uh, another question would be as we're talking about that is, you know, how do you start to help someone move that mindset? Because I've seen organizations put together this, this plan if you will. Right. Because there was a great book that was written or there's a great thing and so it's one size fits all. This is what we're going to do to help you become the most amazing, fantastic, you know, amazing leader that you can have. This is, this is the tool that we're going to use. And I don't know about you, but in my experience it's not always a one size fits all. So any thoughts around that? Around what? How people might approach. How do you help someone go from. How do you go, how do you help someone elevate their leadership right when they are currently maybe at this space? Again, we see the potential in them. We know what they have, what they can bring to the table. We're trying to help them make that shift from team and management mindset into organizational leader mindset. Any, any, uh, can uh, a one size fits all approach work? Have you seen it work? Is there something else that you would recommend people do instead?

Speaker B: Oh man. Um, I mean, I guess the, the, the answer I think, which is not the answer you want but we'll, we can go into it more is. I just think it depends.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker B: Like, like, and that's, I hate. I mean I come from an academic background as well and so a lot of times people will ask a question, uh, related to the research that you've produced or whatever and they, and you say, well, it depends. Yes, there's a whole bunch of other, ah, factors that lead people down a path to leadership. And so one thing that I've learned is there's not a one size fits all path to leadership. So um, and that's probably not super helpful, but I think it's important to understand that just because you, jamad, have one path and I have another does not mean that somebody else is going to follow up our same path to where we're at.

Speaker A: Right, right, right.

Speaker B: And so I think that's important to realize. It's important to understand how people get there and what you need to do to get there. But I think it just depends on each person. Because if I try to be you, I'm never going to be my authentic self.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And if you try to be me, you're never going to be your authentic self and it's going to come off fake as well.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. I can take things from you that I've learned and try to implement the things that I like, some of your styles or whatever, but like, I'm never gonna be you and you're never gonna be me. And so I think it's important for us to understand our strengths, what we're really good at, develop those strengths to help us be the leaders that we can become. Right. And this is where I think, understanding who we are, understanding our values, understanding our past, understanding our goals, there's like, we have to understand a lot of things in order for us to really, um, help us get to the next step. And so there has to be a little bit of soul searching, I think, as part of this, a little bit of work on your end, on your own end. And then what are the things that I need to work on? I don't know. Uh, I think I do know. But what are the things that you need to work on? Really? They're going to be different than what I need to work on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I think it's about understanding where we're at on our, on our journey and how do we get to where we want to go.

Speaker A: No, John, I, I, I, I think you, you, you hit that. Right. Because you actually confirmed what I was hoping that you would. And that is, it's nuanced. Right. And that there, what you just said about there might be pieces that I can pull from this philosophy or from this. We know communication is a, uh, such an important leadership skill, Right? Yep. Uh, and we know that even certain steps in communication are important. Closing the feedback loop, for example, is really helpful. We talked about one on ones and all those things, like we know that that leads to success. And I'm so happy that you said what you said because I don't think it's said enough, which is giving people the space to figure out, okay, if I understand one on ones, meaningful one on Ones are important. I understand. Communication is important to understand. You know, closing the feedback loop to check for understanding is important. But also saying, now figure out how you work this into your authentic leadership style. Right. I think that that is the magic that sometimes gets missed. Right. It's like kind of going back to what you just mentioned about the academic background. You know, I would often talk to people about the art and science of. Right. It's, it's both. It's, here's the science science tells us do A, B and C. And now the art is figuring out how you embed that or incorporate that or embody that in your style. And I really appreciate you naming that because I think sometimes people get stuck into thinking, well, here is the way to create a great leader.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And just, just be like John. Right. We will even have these conversations in our boardroom sometimes when we are trying to figure out, well, John said he's retiring soon and so. Or we, uh, have an open position and what are we looking for? Well, I want someone just like John. And we don't clarify what that means because we're never going to get another John.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: So what are the things that we're really looking for? And then giving that person the space to do it in their own authentic style, I think. Wow. So cute.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's not a frame. Like, okay, there's, there's frameworks. Um, but there's not a three step process to becoming a leader.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Right. I mean, and a lot of people want to say this is. These are the three things. Um, sure, there's probably some value there and take what you want to take from that. But at the same time, you've got to be you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: People want you. They want the real you, the authentic you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, and, and I don't know, this is something I've been thinking about a lot. And so often we're quick to hide the real us, uh, because of past experiences. Right. Um, that have been really painful. Oh, I showed the real me and this is what happened.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, and we have to be willing to open up and be vulnerable. I think have a little bit of self love for who we are. Forgive ourselves for our past mistakes. Understand that we're all working and trying and growing. Um, no one's perfect. And that you just, you just take one step in front of the other. Right. And realize, Realize your humanity, realize your weakness. Realize in some ways that you're broken, but you're not that broken.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right.

Speaker B: And, and, but when I say that you're broken. And that, that, ah, sounds like that's a problem. I think just acknowledging that, being humble enough to acknowledge that, having some self love to forgive yourself, yet at the same time saying, I can do this. I'm focused on my goal. I am going to do everything that I can to achieve X, Y or Z. Here's who I am. I'm going to be me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm not going to be Jamad anymore. I'm done trying to be like Jamad. I'm gonna be me and. Right. Like, um. And you just kind of have to do that.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. John, you probably don't know this, but I like to end every episode by asking the guests, if you could give one tip to leave with the leader, what would it be? And I think you actually just did that in such a great way. I heard about, you know, giving yourself grace, being authentic, um, being vulnerable and taking the next step. And so I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add, but. Wow. I think that that is a. I mean those are great takeaways, tangible things that people can do to start moving in that direction of continuing to grow their leadership. But I'll give you the space. Anything else that you would add on top of that?

Speaker B: I don't think so. Again, I just. Give yourself some grace.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Forgive yourself. You made the best choices that you could in the times that you've done it. You know, most of us are trying.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think ultimately that's what matters is that we have growth and progression and uh, it might take longer than you want it, you know, and it might not be. It won't be linear.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: We all anticipate linear growth. It's never linear. It's more like this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So true. Um, but yeah, just take it one step at a time and it'll. And you'll get there.

Speaker A: Yeah. If you're consistent, uh, consistency. Wow. Another huge piece. Well, John, like I said already, uh, would love to have you back on. This has been a phenomenal conversation. Very rich. And also, again, I appreciate the, the transparency, the authenticity in it and also the, the tangible pieces that people can really take and apply that as they listen to this episode, that there's so many nuggets in here that they can actually take and go. If nothing else, I'm just going to focus on this one next step and there are multiple steps that are in there for them. So just, I want to thank you for again, really sharing, being open and sharing those thoughts and ideas and your own experiences with us and with all the listeners. And, yeah, just on um, behalf of myself and all the rest of the folks in the community, thank you. We really appreciate you.

Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate this opportunity. It's been really good.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Well, folks, again, this is John Bischoff with Canopy Mortgage. I'm sure you can find him on LinkedIn and many other places. But again, we will definitely be having John back for future conversations. We've got some things already that we need to unpack a little bit more that, again, we'll just continue adding to the great toolbox that we're building. So, John, thank you. And to everyone else, thank you for listening.