Mentorship & Emotional Intelligence; Keys to Sales Leadership Success with Colleen Stanley

Speaker A: Welcome to the Exceptional Sales Letter podcast with Darren Mitchell. If you're a sales leader looking to take your leadership to a whole new level, then this is the podcast for you. We'll be exploring tips, techniques and strategies to help you take your leadership to the exceptional level and, uh, allow you to enjoy more money, more meaning, and better sales results. Welcome back to the Exceptional Sales Leader podcast and it is my absolute pleasure to welcome. Uh, well, she's now a friend of mine because she was introduced to me through a mutual colleague, A mutual friend, uh, also living in Colorado. Uh, and she's sitting in an office with. On the back of her. She must. You must be Colin. You must be a believer of, uh, or a fan of Ted Lasso. Would that be. Would that be true?

Speaker B: We, uh, we loved the show. We. Absolutely. I thought it was a great leadership show, but no, we were. We were big fans. I hope come out with another season. I don't know. I've been hearing they're going to, but I'm not sure.

Speaker A: Well, I'm, um, I'm hearing that they. The fourth season is actually launching 2026, so they have been. Really. Yep.

Speaker B: And I've heard that that's good news.

Speaker A: And I think Ted might be coming back and maybe coaching the AFC Richmond female team. I think. I haven't actually, actually confirmed it, but, um, I think it is. But you have a door, and on that door says believe above the Ted Lasso star, Colleen Stanley. Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me.

Speaker A: Now, um, uh, for the. For the benefit of the listeners, I'm going to ask you just to go into a little bit of your background in terms of what you do and where you've. Where you've come from. And you mentioned before, without letting, um, people know how old we are and how long we've been in the industry. But, uh, started selling a few years ago now. But today you're the president and chief seller, selling officer at Sales Leadership Inc. Which I actually love. And you are the author of three books. Um, the most common, the most recent one, uh, is all about mentorship, which we'll talk about. So the mentor. Be the mentor who mattered. Um, so I'd love to know just a little bit about your background and where it all started for you and what was the catalyst or the impetus to lead you to end up doing what you're doing today.

Speaker B: So I had the good, uh, fortune to start in sales, um, with a small company, Varsity Brands. And we were actually the David and the David and Goliath fight. Right. So I was a member of their very first sales team. Now today they're a company that posts 3 billion in revenue. So they are one of those nice American success stories. So I always say part of, um, part of the good news is when you start with a small, fast growth company, they will give people like me an opportunity. Because I had no sales experience, I didn't have a lot of expertise in the business. And uh, and frankly we were all, this is really a truly a startup. We're working straight commission, paying our own expenses, no leads are handed to you. You know, you got one day of training. I call it the go get them good luck training. And then you were out there in the field. And uh, so I'm going to give a lot of credit to being at the right place, right time and mentorships, which we'll get into. So I became then a regional manager and then eventually vice president of sales and marketing where I led a team of 130 salespeople.

Speaker A: Love it, love it. Um, and um, talk to me a little bit about that transition because what I find. And we talked a little bit before we press record here. Uh, this podcast goes out to obviously sales leaders, but also the aspiring sales leaders who have a desire or maybe within their career trajectory, sales leadership may become a possibility. Can you talk a little bit about that transition for you and how easy or not it was for you to make that transition from individual contributor to now sales leader?

Speaker B: Well, you know, I'm going to say it was a yes and a no because I was a individual contributor for four years and then I raised my hand and asked for and received the promotion to regional manager. So actually, you know, flew down to Memphis, Tennessee, moved there and, and I was actually, you know, sitting in my, my new office. You know, I had a window, I had a nameplate outside my door. And I am terrified because all of a sudden I realized I have no clue as to what a regional sales manager does. And remember, this is a fast growth company. So, you know, and this is before the Internet and AI. And so part of me was literally terrified and I was kind of making myself busy calling reps, scheduling ride alongs, um, trying to plot numbers on maps and stuff. And what really changed for me was the day that my boss's boss came into my office and he sat down and I thought, oh, this is it. They found out I don't know what I'm doing. And to make it a very short story, he literally said, you know, I've been observing you. And I know you're struggling, and I just want to remind you, my office is right down the hall, so come and talk to me anytime you want. And then he said, you know what? You're going to be just fine. He said, just teach them what you did to build your territory. And I think two things happened is if this really smart businessman thought I could make it, maybe I can. And then it occurred to me, well, I just have to sit here and think about what I did. And I do believe this is a challenge for people. When they go into management, they don't know how to document the processes. They're not good at documentation. They sit there and go, how did I. Something that has become intuitive. How do I. How do I do it? And I'm sure you face that, um, making the transitions you did as well.

Speaker A: It's interesting you say that because it's often said that the people who are at the top of their game, they do things almost like on instinct. And it's just an intuitive process they go through. And when somebody sits down and asks the question, so, Colleen, how do you do xyz? Often you might turn around and say, well, I actually don't know because I just do it. So it's very hard, often, for people at the top of their game to try to unpack, well, what is the strategy in the thinking process that I go through in order to go from here to here? Uh, but it's the ones that can document that, that can articulate that, that I find have the best opportunity of then being able to leverage themselves and maybe duplicate themselves for others, though, it's like, well, how do you do it? And the thing is, a lot of people make the mistake, and M. I'd love your thoughts on this. A lot of people make the mistake of trying to duplicate what a person does. What I try to instill in sales leaders and certainly people who have aspirations is. Okay, that's one part of it. But how do you understand how a person thinks in order to enable that person to do what they do?

Speaker B: Exactly. And there's, you know, it's interesting. I do think you have to have a somewhat, you know, of a sales methodology, a sales process. However, what I've seen is, is let's just even take prospecting. I find there's some reps that they just have, uh, figured out the LinkedIn, etc. I have other reps. They have got such a big network out there. They are great at building referral partners, asking clients for referrals. So I think As a sales manager, I used to be like, really tight. Like, this is the only way you can do it. Until I had two reps in my own business where one was just a social selling champion and the other just worked off that big network she had built for 20 years. And that was a really good lesson for me. There's there, as long as we get to the lagging indicator. Right. There's different ways to do it. Um, and another quick note here. I remember having a VP of sales. He had a top producer. And, uh, she would not prospect, she would not cold call, she wouldn't do the email. She was his top producer. What she was exceptionally good at, she never lost contact with a client. So if they move to a company, when they arrived, there was a basket of fruit sitting on their desk. And I thought, really? But you know what, that's how she did it. And how many of us sit here and don't do some of those basic relationship building skills that can keep your pipeline full? So I've always kind of found that fascinating. So I think you're spot, um, on.

Speaker A: It's a really interesting point. And often say to sales teams that the sale really begins after the sale is made. And yes, often sales people are under so much pressure to get the next logo, the next piece of business that they, maybe not intentionally, but they neglect some of the relationships they had built up in order to arrive at a certain outcome because they're then focused. And maybe it's the company that says, new business, new business, new business. But for that person to then say, well, hang on, my network is what's going to create not just my net worth, but also the net worth of our business. So I've got to make it my priority to keep in contact and continue to add value. And it's the simple things like when somebody moves organizations and they get a fruit basket that's placed on their desk, maybe with a little card, it's like, well, she's not. Well, she might be doing that to keep the fires burning. Right. And create opportunity. But I would suggest that she didn't start with that. She just wants to say, hey, well done, congratulations, thinking of you, all good. But that plants some seeds in the minds of that, that person. So the next time there is an opportunity, who's the first person they're going to think about?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And that's how she built it. Yeah. So I, I thought there was always a great story.

Speaker A: That is phenomenal. That is phenomenal. So you mentioned before, Colleen, that, um, your, your boss, your Two up boss came down and knocked on your door, came in and said, I know you're struggling, um, and gave you some advice.

Speaker B: Mm.

Speaker A: Do you look back on that time and think, wow, um, why didn't, why didn't they. Well, two things. Why didn't they come to me earlier or why didn't I put my hand up and ask questions earlier? Have you, have you thought about that? And what are you, what are your thoughts there?

Speaker B: Well, you know, I have to say it was probably pretty early. It was only about three months into my new position as a regional. So I do give him credit that he was paying attention. My immediate boss, I will tell you, he was flying. He was, he was so darn busy. And I think the bigger question is why didn't I want to raise my hand? And it wasn't that, I guess in today's term, it wasn't that. It wasn't a psychologically safe, you know, environment. Uh, I think it was pride, um, maybe some ego and maybe not knowing that you could and should ask for help. Because I do think, and I believe the research even shows this, women tend to be thinking that way more than men, that I've got to be 100% ready before I can take on the job. So that probably had some of that going on. Um, yeah, I was going to ask, and I will. Oh, go ahead.

Speaker A: No, no, sorry. I was going to ask you about that because, um, my own experience is that there's a lot of organizations, and probably less so today that have a quota that they've placed upon the senior leaders to have a certain gender percentage in senior leadership ranks, which personally I don't necessarily agree with because it should be a meritocracy. But it's interesting you say that as a, as a female, um, you felt as if you had to have all of the, all of the strengths and all of the qualities ready to go. But from a male point of view, it's like, well, no, work it out as I go. She'll be right. We'll get through it. And it's just a different psychology.

Speaker B: It is. And this isn't, this isn't new research. And I found that fascinating. In fact, then how I got into the VP of Sales was very similar. And so, um, my boss then, uh, resigned and they'd had a six month search going on. So, I mean, I was loaded down. I had, you know, 16 to 18 direct reports. Uh, I'm handling some of his job. And so, uh, I, at varsity, I worked on the apparel side of the company. So it was, uh, one evening at our yearly catalog shoot. And I'm down there, it's about 9pm and, and the president of the company sits, um, down beside me and, you know, starts making small talk and then it turns to big talk. And he's like, what. Why aren't you, uh, why aren't you applying for this national, uh, sales manager's job? And I gave a bunch of excuses, one of which, well, I'm going to move out into the field like the other managers. I was the only one in corporate, or this and this. And he just gently kept pressing and I finally blurted out, I'm not ready. To which he replied, yeah, I mean, you know, he wasn't accepting. You know, obviously, the man built a $3 billion company with, you know, a lot of help, obviously. And he looked at me and he said, we know. We'll help get you ready. I, uh, went, oh, oh, and, and here's where I want to give a lot of credit to this company. So a. That shifted a belief again. Oh, I don't have to be completely ready. And then when he said, we'll help get you ready, he meant it because our CFO at the time, I have a bigger budget to manage than that of a regional. And, you know, you got more of the profit loss margins, all that. And we were all so crazy busy on more than one occasion. We were at that office till 10 o' clock at night. And he's explaining, okay, here's your gross margin, here's your gross profit. Here's the cfo who I do not report to, did not promote me, and yet was taking the time to make sure I was successful. And that's where I really felt like they had a mentorship culture, even though it was very informal. People, m. Helping people. So two things there. Hey, we'll help get you ready. And they actually did.

Speaker A: I love that. And I do want to talk about mentorship because it's a, uh, it's a thing that unfortunately in a lot of organizations, they, it's an afterthought. They don't have a process around. It's a nice to have other organizations, though, that have a process in place almost. It can be a superpower to not only build loyalty and retention, but give, uh, people the opportunity to flourish and get into particularly different, different positions and more senior positions. Just before we talk about that, I'd love, uh, It'd be remiss of m. Me when I'm, when I'm speaking with you, not to talk a little bit about Emotional intelligence, given that you've written two books on it, um, and just reflecting on your career, um, because emotional intelligence has been around for a while and Daniel Goleman's written books and there's lots of research around it, how much of your success and your growth and maybe there's a blend here with them. When the mentorship comes into it, how much do you put your success down to your ability to build some strong emotional intelligence muscles that has enabled you to go through maybe the obvious peaks and troughs, but have sustainability in your career where you've now come out the other end and you're helping our organizations and sales leaders maybe create a new path and particularly for women as well.

Speaker B: You know, it's interesting, I would say I started studying this and got intrigued by it maybe because there were some areas when I was in corporate I wasn't that emotionally intelligent. So, you know, so it's, it's a doctor heal thyself. So for example, I am a former bull in a china shop. And luckily the people I worked with knew I wasn't political, I wasn't doing anything to get promoted. And I, you know, I didn't even know those terms back in my 30s and I was always very passionate. However, when I look back at when I'm in a meeting and I'm speaking very passionately, will that passionate got interpreted like she's a loose cannon. So I could have been 100% right on things. Now I generally got a lot done, obviously, but when I look back, wouldn't have been better to be able to regulate those emotions, demonstrate empathy. I was always pretty assertive. I have never had problem leaning in on the table. So when they talk about that I was not that person had problem. I'm going across the table choking people, right? So, you know, the lean in thing don't have a problem. But it was how I was leaning in. And so that's where I'd say back in corporate, if I had had more of that. But I will tell you like one of the EQ skills is, uh, self regard, the ability to admit your strengths and weaknesses. So I was never a blame excuse person. Uh, because of my background, I have a high degree of resiliency so I can bounce back. And resiliency is how quickly you bounce back. So I would say, you know, that ability to make, uh, admit your mistakes, own it, don't do the blame game. Uh, probably an optimist as far as I just always believed, okay, I could make it happen. Because think about it, when I Started with Varsity. I was given this, um. Do you remember those big green printout sheets you'd get from an AS400? Do you remember those?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We've just lost half your audience here. Okay. And so anyway, I get my 600 accounts. We are only doing business with four. Now, if you look at that, I'm glad I didn't have maybe a veteran rep in my ear saying, you know what, it's going to take you a long time to build this territory. The competitor has all the business. You're not very well branded. I literally looked at that report and I saw four and it went, oh, well, I should be able to at least open up 40 accounts this year. Now you can call it optimism, ignorance. And guess what? I went out and sold. Opened up 40 brand new accounts that year.

Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. There you go. But it's also the power of, of optimism and what is possible and having nobody tell you what the limits were. Right. Because if you hadn't had that, that rep in your head saying, oh, yeah, you'll never do this, because this is what I've learned that's coming from their perspective, their experience and the danger there is. They can project that onto you. And if you respect them as a veteran salesperson, you think, oh, yes, that might be how it is, versus, no, no, I don't have that. I'm going to create my own version of reality and let's go.

Speaker B: Exactly. And so it was really kind of a blessing that we were all running these big, big territories. And then you, you know, you kind of taught yourself territory and account management. But, um, yeah, and when you take a look at optimism, the research shows, and not surprising, optimistic salespeople outperform pessimistic salespeople. And that is, when you study optimism, it is the belief, um, you know, part of it is the belief that you can control your own destiny too.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I would say I had a high locus of control that if it is to be, it's up to me. So when I hear salespeople complaining that they don't have enough leads, they have a bad territory, I'm sitting there going, you mean somebody is giving you a lead? Really? So.

Speaker A: Well, it's a really important point because, uh, and I've seen this in a lot of corporates I've been working in as well, where you'll have, you'll have internal competition within a sales team. They'll have a certain territory that they're responsible for and they're, they're bickering between each Other in terms of, um, how come you got the good leads, you must be the favorite. How come I can't go and talk to that person? And it's more of an external locus of control where they think, well, everything that I am, um, responding to or reacting to is external. Therefore I don't have the opportunity to do things myself versus what you're saying is, no, no, no matter what the situation, I have the opportunity to make a decision as to what I do next because I have that choice.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And optimism, I love the way you frame that because optimism is not some, um, positive psychology. Woo. With everything's going to be fantastic because stuff is going to happen, challenges will be presented, obstacles will have to be faced, but it's the way you actually go through them, work through that. To say, despite those obstacles, I will find a way. It may take me longer, but I will get there.

Speaker B: Yes. And you know, I'd add to this, you know, optimism and this locus control and resiliency all tied together because when you study highly resilient people, their belief to their core is that, okay, let's say I failed, I got a setback here. To their core, they believe there's going to be a lesson learned here. And they, they may say, I might, I, uh, may not even get that lesson in a year. It may take three years. But because you have that belief, it just reframes the adversity or the failure. So I work, you know, when I've worked with some sales managers, I said, you know, how many of you are running failure sales meetings where everybody comes and says, okay, what'd you fail at? They don't. And then, you know, and you know, you know this because I can tell by how you're laughing. You know, we all say you learn more from your failures than your success. Oh, you do not believe that because you'd have big failure walls in your corporate offices. You know, got out soul, got out hustle, we were late to market. And then, so if you really believed it, you'd say, okay, we failed, you own it. That's called self regard. What's the lesson learned? And then how will that lesson serve us moving forward? That gives you hope, that gives you momentum. I'm going into this next call and I'm smarter because I just learned five lessons on this call I totally blew. So it all kind of works together.

Speaker A: Colin, I'm laughing because I often say to sales leaders, um, what's the biggest mistake you've made in the last week? And what's the biggest mistake Your team has made. And they're just not used to even contemplating that question because for a lot of them, their culture is don't make mistakes. And if you make mistakes, cover it up.

Speaker B: And then they can't figure out why they won't break into new industries with a product or service. They won't call in a bigger decision maker. You've just created a risk averse culture. So it's actually quite funny when people start sharing their war stories because, well, they're just funny, number one. And like I remember we were just doing this at an informal dinner years ago and we were all sales consultants, you know, and pretty well established our businesses. One guy tells about his first sales call and how he's getting ready to pull out the purchase order or whatever. He had a brand new briefcase and he had somehow locked it. He couldn't get into it. So you know, you're trying to be this very, very, you know, cool person and he's can't get his briefcase open. I mean, there was story after story, you know, and you lived it. You live for another day. Mhm.

Speaker A: I love that. Love that. So, and this is why things like mentoring is such an important thing. And I want to go back to the story you talked about when you became the, the regional, um, sales manager. You're three months in, your 2up boss came in and said, hey, I've been observing you, etc. Etc. And you're probably sitting there thinking, oh my God, they've been watching me. Was there a camera in here or something?

Speaker B: Um, but you're making a point there too. I'll come back to it.

Speaker A: Yes. Um, but, uh, he was either unofficially or officially a mentor. So I'd love you to talk a little bit before we delve into the, I guess the details of mentoring, why it's such an important concept. How did mentoring help shape you and did it help fast track, I guess, your development as a, as a sales manager, then a VP of sales and ultimately into your own business as a, as a consultant.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, so to this point I want to go back and then go forward. So when you said, did he have cameras? This is what I've actually thought about it. I said, how did he know? Because I am telling you, I am somebody that compartmentalizes well. Um, you know, I can maybe have been. I don't get lit up that much anymore. I have really practiced what I preach. But let's say I've had something that was kind of disturbing. I can walk to a room and you're not going to know it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker B: So here's what you find with great mentors that possess empathy. It's a paying attention skill. So somehow, somewhere he was paying attention. Maybe it was hesitation. Maybe he's watching me in meetings, not seeing speak up for fear of being found out. See, it's often with empathy. It's not what's being said. That's where the true conversation is. I suspect that's what he saw there. Okay. And this individual, then, when I became VP of sales, uh, became my boss. And he. He was a terrific mentor, in fact, in both of my, um, in my leadership. Emotional intelligence for leadership. I. I tell several stories, as I do in the mentor book, about him. So I'll give you one. Um, we were getting ready to. I'm going to try to make this easy. Um, raise the standards by which the sales representatives needed to operate their business. So, you know, orders were coming in, 50% of them are kicking out. So we are raising these standards of excellence. But if you hit those standards, you got to go on this incentive trip. Uh, so I go out to seven regions across the United States, and I'm actually thinking they're probably going to put up a statue because we have our first incentive bill. Right. I had reps standing up in regional meetings, pointing a finger. This is not fair. This is not right. Uh, I was shocked. So I went back to Memphis and I sitting with Klein. Klein Boyd is his name. And I said, maybe we're making this change too quick or we need to back off. And Klein just looked at me, said, colleen, this company's growing and we cannot continue to grow with these many mistakes coming in. So some people are going to make the transition and some are. That was it. And you know what? Most of them made the transition. So what I learned is stand firm. This is what it's going to do. You know, we could have probably done some things on change management now that I know today, but the whole point was we couldn't continue if we're going to scale to become the company that it is today, these things had to change. And he had my back on that, because I might have. If I didn't have a mentor, I might have been like, okay, uh, go back to what you're doing, and we'll still take an incentive trip. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: And that potentially would have been a, I guess an indication that the tail was wagging. The dog versus the dog having control of what the actions were going to be.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you know what? They all raised to the level of excellence. I do remember, I think I had one or two reps and they were my top reps. Not, um, meet these new standards that weren't, it wasn't around revenue, it was again around quality. And I was like, oh boy, this is a test. But you know what? To their credit, they figured it out. And the next year they were on that trip.

Speaker A: Nice. And that, that brings in a really important lesson around sales leadership as well. In terms of the belief that you have, and going back to the Ted Lesso quote on your, on your door there, the belief that you must have in your team in order for their capability to. And patience along with that, that they do have the capability to develop, they do have the capability to improve. Um, and maybe what they need is not only the support, the mentorship, but also time,

Speaker B: you know, they really do. And I have to tell you, I'd love to get your opinion on this because one of the things I get concerned about with AI and technology, uh, wonderful things, by the way. Absolutely. We all know that. But I'm starting to wonder if leaders are trying to offload the human connection and responsibility to a technology tool. And I do think there's some things, like with the sales coaching tools, there's some great ones out there, but there's just a part you gotta sit and be with people.

Speaker A: You do.

Speaker B: And, uh, that's a little concerning for me, that know when you can offload and then know when you signed up to be a leader and until you're managing robots, you have to talk to another human being.

Speaker A: That's right. Well, there's, there's a few points there. One, I actually wrote a, uh, LinkedIn post this week around AI and the use of AI. And the crux of it was you've got to be, you've got to use AI, but you don't give into AI. And the, and the point behind that was I've seen a lot of sales executives use AI to create proposals and executive summaries. And they will not necessarily question, interrogate, or fine tune that message. They'll just take what the AI gives them, give it to a customer. But at some stage in the buying cycle, the customer is wanting to have a conversation and go deeper or get an articulation from the salesperson in terms of what the, the meaning is behind the proposal. So if you sit in front of a customer and you've actually given a proposal that was entirely written by AI and you literally gave into AI, you're going to be found out really, really quickly.

Speaker B: Oh, gosh and, and you know, the other thing, you won't have the story. So you know, as whatever way you like to review proposals. But you know, it's recommendations. But you know, here's the pain point you want to solve. You know, we did this for another client. You know, you got a real quick credibility story there, M AI. I mean, maybe you can write it out, but by the time it's written out, you've lost. What's the pain we're trying to solve, but you know, you do the pain. Here's a quick success story which, you know, call, uh, it social proof. You know, we probably have a whole bunch of language we can put around that. So if the rep isn't doing that kind of thinking, you know, storytelling and I don't teach it, I know there's a lot of great people that do. I'm pretty good at just naturally doing it. But that would be how I was always weaving in this credibility without saying we're great.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And it's the third party endorser, it's the case studies, the testimonials.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker A: Stories about. And maybe, maybe it's a story about where we didn't deliver, uh, successfully. Because what do people want to deal. They want to deal with an organization that is authentic, not quote, unquote perfect.

Speaker B: Well, you know what, they're not going to buy it if you're perfect. And if they do bring that up, you can say, you know, we fell short here. See, that's self regard. We fell short. Let me tell you the lesson we learned and you own all of it. Because a lot of times when people think they're owning it, they do the yeah, but thing. It's like an apology. But yeah, but I was having a bad week, okay. That, you know, the apologies just went away. Right. And so, um, I think that's a really, really good point there. Or just say we can't do it. This is not in my wheelhouse. And I have found more times they'll say, well this might be. And they actually start trying to figure out a way to make it fit in my. And then there's like, no, I really don't do this. I am not good at this. And the only way you can really be that authentic and honest is if you have a full pipeline, which goes back to delayed gratification skills. You know, if you really take a look at why we don't have full pipelines, one of the reasons is delayed gratification. You know, you've got to put in that Work, you've got a calendar block, like even calendar blocking. Darren, think about that. That's all delayed gratification. You got to take 45 minutes on a Friday and sit there and go, what's my next two weeks look like? Oh, when's this happening? When's this happening? Oh. And so I think a lot of young professionals actually haven't been taught time management or priority management. But the soft skill behind that hard skill is delayed gratification.

Speaker A: It is, it is. And that's where mentorship can become really a superpower. So I, um, love to, I'd love to talk to you about, um, mentorship as a, as a concept. And you've had the benefit of mentors throughout your career and you've, you've mentioned one in particular. Um, the first question I want to ask you around this is why do you think a lot of sales organizations in particular don't have mentorship in their organization?

Speaker B: Here's my opinion and belief, and this is from the perspective we wrote the book as well, is I often think people think mentorship needs to be a formal program. Okay, you got a mentor, the mentee gets assigned, there's formal check ins. Now if you take a look at a small mid sized company, you're running really fast. They almost look at it as like another to do list.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: My belief is instead of worrying about having a program, create a mentorship culture. And this means you're going to even have to hire different people. You know, with the pace of change today, I don't know if you can hire lone rangers anymore in sales that now I'm, I am a lone ranger. Um, uh, you know, hired a lot of lone rangers, but think about the information that's coming in. And so if you have people that aren't willing to share their hoarding information or you know, they, you've seen this where they show up to the group sales meeting. You know, it's one of these like, well, this meeting is for you people. I'm hitting quota. Well, so you, you know that. And so that leads me into the second area. Um, as a sales leader, I believe you've got to set the expectation on this team. Nobody goes it alone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so a mentor story I love to tell is again, when I was a field rep, my, I don't know how many states I had and I'm realizing I don't really know how to sell. I don't know how to sell this product or service or deal with customers. So I found these two women in Georgia, Betty and Lynette. Now, they were veterans of the industry. They had recruited them over from a competitor. And so I'd call them up and, you know, I usually would get Betty and hello, darling, what's going on? Oh. Oh. And then she yelled a. Lynette, get her on the phone. Come on, we got to help her. I mean, it's. I could go into the whole story, but here's my point with this. These two women didn't get paid. They. Nobody at corporate knew I was bugging them. They simply had mentorship hearts. And maybe they thought, you know, if we can get these young kids up to speed, we'll become a great company. And they did. So I believe you really need to look at who you're hiring and. And the expectations. So a mentorship culture means everybody's equipped to be a mentor. Peers, bosses, um, anyone. I mean, the CFO was my mentor teaching me how to do numbers. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Because many years ago, mentorship typically was, um, well, from an industrial age perspective, almost like the line management process, where a mentor would be allocated somewhere in your line management. And the mentorship was designed to help you be promoted into that. It's evolved a lot over the time now where you're saying, hey, there may be somebody within the organization who is not directly linked to your role or even your department, but they may be able to help you in an area of development that can help you become a more well rounded contributor to the business, but also a more well rounded human that's going to add value to society as a. As a general rule.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things we stress to people, because again, I think it's that we've got to have this program. And you can. Look, Fortune 500 companies have it. There's. There's lots of great books written about formal mentorship. I want people to know it can happen in a moment. M. Like that one conversation, we know you're not ready. We'll help get you ready. That was one conversation that changed everything. So I do believe we've got to be very intentional about looking up and around, like, who could use our help. So, you know, if you see a person in a meeting and let's say they. Let's say they got shut down, because there's always somebody that's dominant. That's usually me. Okay. Could be interrupting. Well, you might want to pull that person aside and say, hey, the next time. And it could be one conversation. Here's how you handle that. Um, Joe. Uh, Juanita. They don't know, they interrupt people. It's their auditory processors. You know, they don't let people finish their sentences. And so you can even teach them that. You know, sometimes what I've seen, people go, oh, that person's a jerk. I said, what are they a jerk or are they clueless? Two different things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then if you can reframe that, you don't get so emotionally triggered to, uh, where you can't say anything in the meeting. So a lot of it's just looking up and around and you practice it all day long. You can do it in the grocery store, I do it at restaurants. What do you do when you're not working here? You'd be amazed at the stories I've heard.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. But that, but that's, that's curiosity and that's a genuine desire to learn about another human being. And I'm the same. I'll, ah, at the airport, I'll ask, I'll just see. I'll be happy to be talking or sitting next to somebody. And it's one, it's one question, one conversation, or one thing I noticed about them, they might be on a, on a laptop or doing something. And it's amazing where that conversation can go. So. You're so right. Mentors are everywhere. The other thing I wanted to ask you is there's a lot of organizations that will have a formalized mentoring program, and they try to have a mentorship culture that they create. But a lot of people think, well, a, uh, mentor is typically going to be somebody who is really senior and they have so much experience, so much of a really strong track record. I'm almost not worthy. I can't approach them to ask to be a mentor because I keep telling people, and I've done a lot of, I guess, conversations with potential mentors and mentees and help them through that sort of process. Mentors are not out there advertising, hey, I'm a mentor. I'm looking for a mentee. They're waiting, um, to be asked. So can you talk a little bit about from a cultural point of view? If you're working with an organization to try to create a mentoring culture, how do we help people get over maybe the mental block that I can't as an individual contributor that might be three months into my role, I can't approach directly the VP of sales who has a huge amount of responsibility and ask them to be my mentor. How do you, how do you change that?

Speaker B: Well, I think I'm hearing two things. So the first one is let's talk about the first one. I'm not, um, worthy. Okay, so what I'll talk to people about. There's all sorts of ways to be a mentor. You, uh, can be a resiliency mentor. And literally, you are that person that people may just watch you. So they're seeing you go through a hardship or an adversity. And because of how you handle yourself through that, they go, I want to be that person. You come out, as they call it better, not bitter. Uh, you can be that person that's an encouragement mentor. You just have this gift that you welcome people as they are. So, you know, like, if you have a garage sale as is. Right. You're really good at saying, no, no, just come as is. You don't have to do the whole, you know, fake it till you make a thing. And it's actually something called the Pygmalion effect. So these type of people naturally see potential in other people, and they communicate it well. And just because of that expectation, the other person rises to that expectation. Uh, you can be a tough love mentor. So you've really mastered, you know, carefrontation, and you're good about. Yeah, you can do it with empathy, but you're assertive, and you're comfortable stating a blind spot. Because the idea. And I tell a lot of mentees this. I said, when people care, they share. When people quit sharing because you do the yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but thing, they've gone into apathy.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So this is when, you know. So there's different ways that you can be a spiritual mentor. I mean, for heaven's sakes, how many people are walking around like a major tenant of spirituality's forgiveness? And how many people have we met? They're still mad at mom and dad because they were, you know, weren't good parents. Well, good grief, they probably didn't have good parents or a sibling or a past boss. And so they just. They're just carrying luggage around. And maybe just you can be the person that goes, is it time to let that go?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that's how you create better human beings out there. Now, the other way for the mentee is, um, how do I approach a mentor? And we've got a great story in the book. It's Don Yeager. And, you know, he's a very famous speaker, sports writer, and he had learned of the story of John Wooden, and I should know the story better. But anyway, now they'll have to buy the book. But he was mentoring an athlete, so he. He asked John Wooden. He Said, well, well, how to, how do people get time with you? And John Wooden said, you just ask. And he for a number of years flew out to California every other month, spent a full day with John Wooden. Now John Wooden set the expectation come. The first thing we're going to do is going to see if you applied what I asked you to do, because then I think that tells you if you're serious. But he said the session will last as long as your questions do. So he said, I was really prepared with my questions, but notice then what happened after that, then you apply it and you report back. So I think for mentees, what motivates a mentor, even really busy ones, they'll always take the time. They will, they'll always take the time. But if you're not doing anything with it, that time pretty much gets done. They're like nap. You're not serious. And it's not that they don't like people, it's just that, you know, their time's limited. So I'm going to work with somebody that is going to do what I'm teaching.

Speaker A: And particularly because like somebody like John Wooden who is a, is a very, very, um, was a very highly successful basketball coach, um, in order to get his time he wants, he would want to invest in a person who's prepared to invest in themselves and do, yes, suggest they do. And perfect. It's not, it's not, ah, I could keep giving you information because there are people out there that are just information suckers. They just want to get as much information as they possibly can. That's it. But they won't necessarily do anything with it. And uh, it's a really interesting point you make that as a mentee understand that there are mentors out there that are willing, able and want to help you, but you have to be prepared and you have to treat their time with respect. But more importantly than that, you've got to respect yourself enough to say am I prepared to do what is required? Am I prepared to do what my mentor suggests to do? Because they have my best interest at the core of what we're trying to do here.

Speaker B: Mhm. It's so critical because right now I work with the University of Colorado and they have a program called Empowering Women in Business. And so these, and there's men and women in the class, obviously more uh, women, they get, everybody in the class gets assigned a mentor. So I also uh, bring, I teach one, um, uh, day there on emotional intelligence and then I mentor a student. I will tell you they get those kids prepared. I'm going to call them kids because at this age, everybody's a kid. Okay. Okay. And, um, but they get those young, those students ready. I mean, they come to those sessions, they're on time, they've got questions, and then as the mentor, I do start watching. Are you applying? And there is a difference. So that, so they are well prepared when they come. There is an application gap sometimes that I see.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's always intriguing to me.

Speaker A: And as a mentor, how does that affect your ability to continue to give? Um, is there a temptation when you see that there's the application gap, to not so much withhold information, but not be as forthcoming and as generous, if you like, in terms of that? And is that something that mentors need to be conscious of? And if so, how do we incentivise, challenge? Um, maybe go across the table and slap them across the head a little bit to say, wake up abuse?

Speaker B: Yes, M. Well, you know, one thing I think you have to pause because I, I am a pretty results oriented person, so I can go right to what you're talking about. Okay, done. You're not applying. And then I have to remember, okay, wait a minute. Uh, uh, what was I like in my 20s and 30s now? I was always pretty fearless. Okay. And I think that just comes from growing up in a small town where you didn't have to be good to try out for anything because they just need a body count. You know, you could be on the track team, you could be in the school musical. So I never grew up with this perception. You had to be good before you showed up. So I have to pause on that one, um, and then think, okay. It's usually a belief system because if you look at anything after you've been taught something and you know it's proven to work. The reason we don't do it is we actually don't believe it or we don't believe we're capable. So I believe as a mentor. So look at that belief worker again. As mentors, we have to go back and examine, okay, what's, uh, what's sitting on these shoulders? What story are they telling themselves? What story has been told to them? Um, and often I've seen even where a one time event in a person's life becomes their truth. Well, I tried public speaking and somebody fell asleep. Therefore, I'm not good at public speaking. Well, you do a ton of public speaking. You're very good. Tell everybody how many hours you spend rehearsing a, uh, presentation, a workshop, a Keynote. I'm asking you the question, how many hours?

Speaker A: Oh, me?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, put it this way, for every one hour that I deliver a training, there's at least three hours of preparation, including, um, thinking. It could be planning, it could be rehearsing, it could be bringing metaphors. So it's about one to three, a lot.

Speaker B: And, and that's you as a seasoned professional. M. Right. I mean if you go back way when you started, so um, that's where I think you have to do a pause and go, okay, what's really going on here? And then if you can coach them past that self limiting belief, then maybe you get some action. And then if you don't, you know, sometimes, you know, it's. Then you do get a little exhausted.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, mentors, mentorship, I guess relationships can be relatively, um, short term. They could be even a one off conversation because as you've articulated today, there could be a chance meeting at an airport or somewhere that there's a mentoring conversation and that has and leaves an indelible mark on you. But then there's more longer term relationships that might go for years.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And when you said on an airplane, you just triggered a memory. So remember when I just talked, you know when I went out to those seven regions, hey, we've got a new standard of excellence, but we're taking you on incentive trip. I am flying home for the last meeting and I don't know what I look like because I'm sitting there and this gentleman next to me ask you okay? And I went, I am not making. And I went, yeah, my reps hate me, but I'm okay. And so, you know, and he was an older gentleman and he goes, well, what went on? And so I told him the story and he said, let me share something with you. That's a great sign that they were so passionate. I, uh, said, uh, uh what? And he said, uh, uh, the fact that they were passionate means they're still engaged.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: He said when you're met with lack of passion, they've already checked out. Actually, the fact that they were so passionate about this, that's a good sign. Do you know how many years it's been. That's been a 30 years ago since that little conversation happened on a plane. And I went, oh, okay, he's right.

Speaker A: And he was what an awesome reframe. And probably in an environment at a time when you least expected it. But isn't it fascinating that I don't know whether you believe in the universe or whatever, but People are placed in your path at just the right moment to deliver the perfect message.

Speaker B: Mhm. That is brilliant. Absolutely. That's funny, I had not thought about that for years.

Speaker A: Love it. Love it. So Colin, this has been a great conversation. Um, we're nearly up at time, but I wanted to ask you. There'll be people listening to this right now who may be in a sales leadership position. Maybe they're the VP of sales, or maybe they've got an influence position. There might be a senior individual contributor who is wanting to mentor, who is wanting to encourage the organization to take on more of a mentoring culture. Are there any specific, I guess, ideas or first steps for maybe people who are not currently working in an environment that has mentoring at the top of their thinking list that they can do or think about implementing or even questions they can ask to start the process of mentoring and getting people to think about this concept of mentoring.

Speaker B: Mhm. Let me give you a couple of theories and then a concrete. So the first one I'm going to use a quote that I just heard from Simon Sinek and he said, what really matters is hard to measure. And if you think about it, you know, mentorship has been around since Socrates. Right. But does it get captured on the P and L statement? So, you know, Gallup for years has said, if you have a best friend at work, seven, uh, times more productivity, increased engagement, increased retention. Where are you capturing a best friend at work?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Right. The second, I would say is stop making the mentees find you. So how, how many times have you heard, go find a mentor, Go find a mentor. Stop it. I didn't know I needed a mentor in my 20s, 30s, 40s. You go find them. And one of the ways you can do it. So this would be a concrete. Is Carrie Meisel. She um, former client, she's now in the leadership training, uh, business. When she was at cotg, she noticed college graduates coming and they're very smart, but because they'd grown up with social media Covid, you know, screen time, they lacked communication and connection skills. So at the company during the onboarding, they created a scavenger hunt and they had to go and get answers and meet with all these executives, get questions and answers there. Now what that did, they started knowing the executives and a lot of times what the research shows, mentorship starts informally. So just the fact that they got to know them, it was maybe personal, uh, questions and business questions. Then I would say there, you know, that person might say, you know what, let's go to lunch or they make it a goal that if they've got a new hire, even if it isn't in their department, you could be their best friend at work.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ah.

Speaker B: So the scavenger hunt is a great way to do it. The other is you could simply set the expectation, okay, you're going to mentor somebody this year. And then how you start your meetings is different. So you do have a mentor. And instead of starting the meeting like P. Ls, da, da, da, da. The question might start with, we go around the room. Who did you help flourish this week? Who did you help flourish this week? So you start, you do a meeting, reset. So those are just a couple of ideas.

Speaker A: I love that. And it places pressure on the. On the. On the executive, for example, to go out and be proactive and put themselves

Speaker B: out there and start measuring the invisible. Like, I was really, um, as. Even as a regional and a vp, I was really dead set on having meetings. So we always had a national sales meeting, but I always had regional sales meetings, too. Now the visible costs are, uh, meeting space, uh, hotel, food, drink, and that. The invisible. Hey, I just met this veteran rep that gave me a great selling tip. Where does that end up on the profit and loss statement? It doesn't. So you got to really be. You got to believe that there's an invisible return that you're not capturing.

Speaker A: And that in itself requires senior leaders in particular to understand that it's a requirement. It's almost like a superpower. You may not necessarily see it. That's hard to measure, but if you don't do it, it will have an impact on your bottom line.

Speaker B: Yeah. What really matters is hard to measure. That's why I wrote it down. When I heard Simon Sinek say it, I thought, that is mentorship, among other things. But that. That. That's mentorship.

Speaker A: Love that. Love that. Great way to finish. Hey, Colleen, it's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. For people who would like to, uh, know more about you, learn a little bit more, and especially get access to your books and connect with you, where's the best place for them to do so?

Speaker B: Uh, go. Go to our website. It's sales leadership development.com and I'm also active on LinkedIn. And so those two places, you know, the books are on there, which will take you to Amazon, LinkedIn, you can connect and follow. So would love to. Love to stay in touch.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you. I'll put those in the show Notes. Um, thank you so much for being a guest now, there's one final question that is for people listening to this. Is there one final piece of Colleen Stanley wisdom that we haven't yet covered that you like to leave them with foreign.

Speaker B: Let's see. Final wisdom, I would say, do not confuse emotional self awareness with self absorption. Ah.

Speaker A: Uh, you know what? That could be a topic all of itself we could talk about for an hour.

Speaker B: You know, because sometimes people get so aware of their emotions and that what I'm thinking or feeling, that's not really the idea of emotional self awareness. Okay. It's because if you can get more tuned into your own emotions, then you can tune into other people's emotion. But if you start spiraling, it's called self absorption.

Speaker A: I love that. I love that. So build your self awareness. Understand your. Your self awareness and all the things, but also understand how that plays out in the external environment. So your social awareness, your external awareness. Um, and don't make self absorption. Brilliant. Absolutely love it. Thank you so much. It's been a great, great conversation. All the best. And I love, I love the believe on the door. Um, and, uh, we'll. We'll have to do another episode down the track. Thanks for being a guest.

Speaker B: Oh, that'd be fun. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks, Colin. Thank you for listening to the exceptional sales that are podcast. I trust the information this episode has been helpful in your journey towards becoming exceptional. And remember, please take the time to rate the show. Subscribe to the show so other people can find it. But also, if I can help you jump in my Calendar, go to leadwithdarren.com and let's have a conversation about how I can help you along your journey to being exceptional.