Creators vs. influencers: Inside the divide (RERUN)

Speaker A: What's intrusive is I'm trying to make a phone call and there's an ad that pops up between me and being able to make my phone call or trying to send a text message. So I think that realistically, like carriers, OEMs, um, any partners in the space like Unity, we just have to think of our own device experience and we always have to ask that question, do we want this on our phone? Would this be a good experience for us? And if the answer is no, we shouldn't pursue it. And again, I think that that's where we go back to, like the app install suite that we've been running with Unity for a number of years. Um, that typically is about a 30 to a 40 second experience on your device as you're, uh, unboxing your new phone. Um, and it cuts out a lot of time that you would have to go into the Google Play store and download individual apps one by one. So there is a clear value to that.

Speaker B: That's Patrick Callanan, TR general Manager of mobile monetization at T Mobile Advertising Solutions, our sponsor on this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Later in the show, Custom Intelligence talks with Patrick and Lee London, head of Aura US at Unity, about mobile changing consumer preferences and maximizing the app install experience.

Speaker C: Foreign.

Speaker D: Hello and welcome to the Digiday Podcast. I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of Video and audio at Digiday Media, and I have a question for you creators, influencers, are these the same thing to you or are you able to articulate some difference between the two? It's a question my co host, Kimiko McCoy and I put to Digiday's managing editor, Sarah Jerdy, and executive editor of News, Seb Joseph in an episode earlier this year. And it's the episode we've received the most feedback on with a whole mix of arguments and I think the argument or conversation Kimiko, Sarah, Seb and I had has held up pretty well because the more I think about it, the more my own thoughts have evolved. But maybe, maybe we'll save that for a future episode. Please enjoy this re airing of the creator versus Influencer debate. And after a short summer break, we'll be back with new episodes starting on July 14th. Happy summer, Kumiko. Um, I'm really excited for this week's episode. This is the semantic showdown, the Ali Frazier of influencer marketing. The conflict that's tearing the creator economy apart.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker D: What the hell is the difference between influencers and creators? And so we're gonna do this debate style so you're on one side, I'm on the other side. You have a teammate. I have a teammate. Do you wanna introduce your teammate?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: And your side?

Speaker C: My side is on the. There is a difference. And luckily for me, I've got, um, the ever so smart executive news editor Seb Joseph, working with me to prove our case that there's difference between creators and influencers. Uh, who's on your team, Tim?

Speaker D: I've got Sarah Jeudy, our managing editor at Digiday, and our side is arguing that, no, there is no difference. You and Seb are. And anyone else who believes there's a difference between influencers and creators, at least a difference that's easily defined, are wrong.

Speaker C: Yes. Yes. So, all right, here's my rationale and then Seb, please jump in here to back me up. There's a difference between creators and influencers. Influencers are mostly in my imagination, point and shoot. The focal point is mainly themselves. In addition to whatever their hard sell is, whether it be a beauty brand, clothing, affiliate shopping on Amazon, that type of deal, A, uh, creator is a lot more expansive. They've got more tools in their tool belt. And then they. I would say that they're using social media as the vehicle for their content, whether it be podcasts, that type of deal. Seb, um, where are you at?

Speaker E: I think creators and influencers are. They're related, but they're not the same. And the reason I say that is because if you think about it, if you take away a creator's brand deals, they're still a creator, right? They're still going to be doing the live streams, you know, posting that kind of funny video. You know, that's not the same for influencers. Right. Without the, you know, kind of the brand deals there, there's not going to be that video of them wearing those outfits that were sent to them by that brand because it wanted to influence, uh, kind of their audience. So, you know, while I understand the kind of confusion, you know, why the terms are used interchangeably, they're both post. They both post videos to a dedicated audience that they're both trying to build businesses on the back of. Um, you know, I think that's where the similarities kind of stop. Right? People are watching creators to be entertained and informed, whereas they're turning to influencers with a, with a tacit knowledge that, you know, someone is going to try and influence them to do something at some point. And I think that's evident in, you know, the content that these personalities make. Right. Drew Ski, you know, he's not going to be doing an outfit of the day video. Lydia Tomlinson is going to be, you know, going viral for parodying megachurch preachers.

Speaker D: Okay, so there is the case that there is a difference between influencers, creators. I obviously do not think it is a strong case because I think, you know, Seb, um, to your point of creators are going to be creating content whether they're making m money from it or not. I don't know that I agree with that. Some will, but they won't be doing so on a regular basis. Also, then those people are hobbyists, not professional creators. And I believe we are talking when we talk about creators, professional creators, just like we would be talking about professional musicians or professional athletes, not people who are playing pickup basketball, as great as that is for fitness. Those are not people who are going to be on Wheaties boxes, necessarily. And we're also assuming that an influencer is only posting because they have brand deals. Now, a large share of what they're posting is because of those brand deals, but they didn't get those brand deals without posting in the first place. Usually there are some exceptions, which I'm sure we will get to in this. My summation of my argument and then I want Jody to chime in. What we're talking about here is a person who creates content that cultivates an audience and then monetizes their influence over that audience. This person is a creator and an influencer. They're intertwined. Is there anything you want to add?

Speaker F: Yes, so much. And I think we need to back up a little and just say that because we work and cover a part of the industry that has so many acronyms and so many different definitions for every single thing, it's really important to get on the same page both as a newsroom and for this conversation. And I will also caveat this by saying that I live and breathe by AP style and I love when language develops faster than we can write it. Uh, and this is a great example of that. I mean, no one is going to argue that, you know, love em, but that the Associated Press is on the precipice of change when it comes to accurately describing what we should be writing about. Anyway, I'm glad we're having this conversation. Um, all of that to say, not to push back on Yasseb, but I feel like your argument is built around potential. Know, like an influencer and or creator have the potential to sell something and that exchange of money is what makes them an influencer and a creator. And I feel like that's too soft. Um, whereas I think when you bundle rightly so the definition of creator and influencer as one, you're speaking more to their standing, their like, you know, know, social standing, um, versus their ability to move dollars. It's more about, um, perhaps it's more about intent than it is, um, theoretical dollars moved for me.

Speaker D: So, Kumiko Sub, have we convinced you to our side?

Speaker E: No. Kumiko caught some straights there. Boy. Um, what? Just, just to kind of come back on that front, I will say that like when we're trying to talk about this perceived difference between the two, I don't think it matters to normal people. Right. I think really this thing only matters to marketers in the main. Um, because there is so much fluidity between the two. Ultimately these, you know, as sort of Tim and um, Sarah have rightly kind of outlined, we are talking about a kind of group of people that are ultimately doing the same thing. That said, you know, I will say

Speaker D: just leave it there.

Speaker E: It sounded like you were agreeing with us.

Speaker D: That's fantastic.

Speaker E: That said, I will say the difference does matter for marketers because when you think about what's happening in the market at the moment, you know, influencer marketing is m. Is more about the paid media aspect of all of this. Right. Whereas the creative businesses, at least in terms of how marketers are engaging with them, um, you know, that feels a lot more closer to kind of how they would be transacting working with a media company. And you know, I think that distinction, you know, when you kind of think it through, sort of changes, uh, kind of everything about how marketers are moving into the creative economy. Right. Influencers kind of get treated essentially like advice, whereas the creators kind of get treated more like long term partners. Yes. I know you're both going to come back and sort of talk about, you know, the fact that that can be interchangeable and you're right, but I think that fluidity exists more at the edges and the basic divide, at least, you know, as we see it in the reporting that we do, kind of shapes everything from budgets to expectations to relationships in the space.

Speaker D: Sorry, Sarah. I think all I heard there was Seb, um, saying that we're right multiple times.

Speaker F: Yeah, agreed.

Speaker C: I do think there's something to be said though, doubling down on that space that it is important to marketers.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker C: If I'm spending what little ad dollars that I am allotted in this life, it's gonna make a difference. Right. Because if I'm looking for a performance play, I'm Going to influencers that are going to go with a hard sell. If I want creators, like, to your point, a Drewski or something like that, there's not a hard sell there. And that may be more of a brand awareness play. I may be looking for a point to start conversation and things like that.

Speaker D: The ROI is TV commercials.

Speaker C: He is, but I would give him as a creator as opposed to being an influencer, because there's a distinction.

Speaker D: Sarah, please.

Speaker F: Well, I just feel like this conversation, the arguments that you're making could have been more valid maybe 5 years ago when it was still early days and there wasn't so much competition. Oh, come on. Come on, we're having fun.

Speaker D: Journey off the top rope.

Speaker F: No, I just feel like, you know, we have matured as an industry. You guys are selling marketers short, too, um, for not understanding and embracing the power of creators and influencers. And I'm sitting here talking and I'm thinking, like, what argument is a quote unquote, influencer making to move these dollars? Not approaching it as a creator. You know, I just don't. I don't know what that would look like, you know, if you were to untwine the two, what would that conversation be?

Speaker C: Going back to your point about pricing, right. And things like this, if I'm looking for a, uh, shorter term, smaller buy, they're just kind of like budding breading influencers and things like this. To be able to amplify what my creator is, the main focal point of my message, then, yes, smaller, um, smaller influencers that are doing hard sales is who I'm going to go to to amplify what my creator, my Drew Ski, my Drew Fuel, my Caleb Horan is saying in that sense, I just think

Speaker F: it's too big now to go off of vibes in the way that it was, you know, again, five years ago.

Speaker E: I wouldn't say it's. I wouldn't say it's kind of vibes, but I think it would be silly to compare someone like Drew Ski, who has arguably kind of transcended being a typical creator. But if we're just using him, for example, given he's being talked about at the moment, it would be silly to compare him to what, uh, a traditional, not even a traditional, to what an influencer does these days, right? From. In terms of product recommendations and, and sort of reviews and those things.

Speaker G: He.

Speaker E: That's not what he does. He is in the business of entertaining. And I think, you know, again, coming back to why we're having this conversation, if I'M a marketer. Despite all of the nuances, you know, that are kind of baked into the market. You need to start somewhere. And having a clear ish divide between what a creator does and what an influencer does is, is essential. Right? You know, I think you see that in the market as well. Why we have all of these influencer marketing platforms that will connect influencer A with brand B. Um, and then you have, you know, creators, at least some of the sort of the medium to larger sized ones that will kind of have agents and agencies that will kind of, uh, work on their behalf.

Speaker B: I'm Christina Koh, senior editor at Custom Intelligence, Digiday Media's in house agency. In this podcast, Interstitial story sponsored by T Mobile Advertising Solutions, we speak with Patrick Callanan, the company's general manager of mobile monetization, and Lee London, head of Aura Us at Unity, about mobile changing consumer preferences and maximizing the app install experience.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, I mean I think most of the mobile disconnect comes with the way investments are typically made on user acquisition and that's about it. So just getting the app on the device is incredibly important. It's incredibly important for your retargeting efforts in order to make the journey, uh, much easier for the user to convert. But what's also important is retention and engagement. Um, and that's what I think we've really seen over the last, um, couple of years at T. Ah, ads is the ability to drive individuals into an app, um, often, uh, which helps with any app that's generating ad revenue. It helps with any app that's trying to generate, um, a cost per order. Um, but at the end of the day, if you're spending money to get an app on the device, you should also spend just as much money, if not more to get users to engage with it.

Speaker B: And some of these efforts are going toward discoverability beyond the app stores, especially as consumer behavior evolves. And as Lee London from Unity explains, updating app store listings doesn't bring in new users.

Speaker G: Yeah, so finding a new app today is really hard. So discovery and discoverability. There are new applications and games being released every single day and knowing what's quality, what's going to work for me is incredibly hard to stand out for any app. So discovery is really moving off the app store itself and more into experiences and devices that users are just using on the mobile device. So we see that it's like some brands are optimizing their store listings and it's just capturing demand that was already existing. So it's like, hey, you're going to go into the App Store and you're going to search for something and that demand is here. But to create growth in discovery, it's surfacing experiences at the right time when users are looking for new apps. So it's like a great example of this is an onboarding. You have a context window where I, uh, turn on a device and I'm setting up my device and right now it's like, I have a new device, maybe I'll get a new app, we'll have a new game, we'll have a new something and this is the right time to present this to users. This is really the Unity T Mobile partnership of what we've built is finding that discoverability window when users are looking for something new. And then it's like having the right on device placement to provide uh, the app installs.

Speaker B: App installs can be an aspect of mobile advertising that many brands overlook. But it's been successful for both T Mobile and Unity as Patrick expands on, while offering many benefits to users over the years.

Speaker A: Yeah, I see our partnership with Unity to be really focused on discovery. We partner with Unity on the app, uh, install suite, uh, which is really focused on the unboxing of a new phone. Our goal there is to get the apps that you want on your phone, um, on the device as quickly as possible and also as efficiently as possible. But we also want to enable you to discover new apps, um, that are going to make your device experience significantly better.

Speaker B: As brands increasingly seek the attention of younger audiences, understanding how they interact with their phones is crucial to delivering their desired experiences.

Speaker G: Yeah, I think of this as really, it's like mobile native audiences of just the phone isn't a channel, it's the default storefront phone. Everything they do in their lives. So discovery is happening on these devices in a flow for what they're already doing. They're not just opening the store, they're not going and searching. It's just how they find things is just through using their device and everything that they're doing in a given day. And for brands like the bar is really high. The stat we all hear is like, you have eight seconds to grab attention before it's like a, it's like a mobile native is already moving on to the next, the next thing. So you have to quickly provide the value and that value, it can't interrupt the experience and it needs to be, it's like relevant to a user and that's really creating these experiences where you're on an application, you're in a flow and a user can quickly skip to the next if it's not relevant, but also trying to get it in front of a user when it makes sense.

Speaker B: You've been listening to Lee London, head of Aura US at uh, Unity, and Patrick Callanan, general manager of mobile monetization at T Mobile Advertising Solutions, our sponsor on this episode. And now back to the Digiday podcast.

Speaker D: I agree with a point that you made back when, Seb, you were saying how right Sarah and I are. Um, but I feel like influencer is a context in which we talk about creators, for sure, but ultimately, like the profession is content creator. Influencer is the context in which we're talking about content creators doing deals with brands or on behalf, you know, posting content on behalf of brands. But in that case, it's not so different from traditional actors, professional athletes, professional musicians, who we talk about, you know, in those occupations. But when they're doing spokespeople deals or when their attention, the attention they cultivate is being traded upon either by them in the form of spokesperson deals or by tabloids in the form of selling photos for paparazzi or what have you, then we're talking about those people as celebrities, and they can be both the same thing. I feel like what celebrity, the term celebrity is to a traditional actor, professional athlete, a professional musician is what an influencer is to a professional content creator.

Speaker E: Of course, and I wouldn't dispute that.

Speaker D: Again, Seb's saying we're right.

Speaker E: Um, you know, I definitely think the influencer part is part of the broader credit business. But, you know, every influence is a creator, not every creator is an influencer. And I think you, I think you see that in the market now. And I think as marketers, there is a. I keep sort of going back to this point, and so Kimiko sort of touched on it earlier, but I think you see that in how these, these, these, these deals are done. Like, the process in which a brand will go and do a typical influencer deal is very different to how they will work with a creator, at least as we're thinking about it in the clearest way that we can think about it in the current sort of context. Right. Like, we have to start somewhere. I think if we sort of talk about it, you know, out the gate as this kind of nuanced, amorphous thing, then we're just never going to make any sort of progress in terms of, like, talking about the differences between the two and how, uh. What's the word? How, um. Not fragmented, fragment, the right word, vast. I guess the kind of market has become. And on one hand you do have creators that are out there. Do creators. Influences that are out there, you know, doing a very specific.

Speaker D: Chose the right term there. The terms perhaps be synonymous.

Speaker E: But like, to my, to my point, I think that that kind of touches on it though. Right. The fact that even I'm getting confused at this moment in time gets back to the thrust of why Kimiko and I feel like A, there is a difference, but B, why we probably need to be doing a better job at sort of talking about it. Because, you know, when I'm talking to, you know, kind of sources, there is a kind of subtle shift, you know, in, in conversation how they talk about things when they're talking about influencers versus creators.

Speaker C: No, I back up my partner here. I do. I stand by the idea that there's a difference between the two. Not to say that an influencer cannot be creative and not to say a creator cannot have influence. Right. But to me, it doesn't make the two professions interchangeable. I think even going based off of like their rankings. If you were to ask me to name five influencers off the top of my head, where it's just, like I said, catego categorized as a hard sale regardless of how many followers they have. If there's nothing that exists outside of their get ready with me, hard sales, you know, Amazon affiliate links and things like this. I don't know these people. Creators I know and I feel like that is because there's something that exists outside of the hard sale on social media. Even when marketers talk about it. Right. They identify the difference between the two. Because if there is a ROI that's attached to it, influencers are going to get me a quick hit because there's a hard sale attached to it. Creators are a little bit more of, like I said, a brand awareness play.

Speaker D: You've.

Speaker C: I mean, I've seen conversations where creators play like Alex Earl helping Poppy create like a new soda brand and things like that. Are you going to go to an influencer for that?

Speaker D: Alex Earle is an influencer.

Speaker C: A creator, apparently, yes.

Speaker D: So, um, what's the, what's the. The a creator who is not an influencer. What's an example of that person? What makes it that they're a creator but not an influencer?

Speaker C: Somebody who works. So to your point, somebody who works with. And they could still have influence. Right. But they may not necessarily be an

Speaker D: influencer, which could make them an influencer. Interesting.

Speaker C: If we're Arguing on your side? Yes. If we're arguing on my side. No.

Speaker D: Um, it feels like you and Seb are arguing on my side. You just don't want to come over here. But it's if really nice. Sarah and I don't bite. Although, Sarah, a second ago, kind of.

Speaker F: Oh, give me a break. We moved on.

Speaker C: If you're thinking about, like, an artist, somebody who works with, like, meet, like, um. I don't know if you're, like, a claymation artist or something like that. I can't give you a name right now. Um, but in that sense, if there's, like, art is your medium. Social media is just the vehicle. Right. Your creator. That's how I would identify.

Speaker D: How do they make their money?

Speaker C: I don't. They may not necessarily make money from brand deals.

Speaker D: So then they're not a professional.

Speaker C: I said from brand deals. What if they're, like, a podcaster and things like that?

Speaker D: How does their podcast make money? Ads, which is a form of brand deal, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker C: But the pla. I don't know. I limit influencers to social media, whereas creators have more mediums.

Speaker D: Define social media. Is YouTube social media?

Speaker C: No, I don't even. It's video at this point.

Speaker D: Okay, so now we're drawing a line. Which. YouTube will love that. Because YouTube hates when it gets grouped under social media. If you talk to any YouTube executive, um, they bristle visibly when you describe YouTube as a social platform. But then. So then we're eliminating everyone who's a YouTube creator who has made YouTube their primary platform.

Speaker C: Say that again.

Speaker D: Is that right? If you're someone who's a YouTube star, let's set aside creator and influencer first.

Speaker C: So, like a Michelle Khari.

Speaker F: Uh, uh-huh.

Speaker D: Huh.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker D: A Michelle Carre, a Casey Neistat.

Speaker C: Uh, Marquis Brown.

Speaker D: These people are not influencers.

Speaker C: I would call them creators.

Speaker D: Okay. I would call them creators. What's the difference between, like, someone who makes videos on YouTube and someone who makes videos on TikTok?

Speaker C: I think if you were to transfer a Marquis. If you were to transfer a Michelle, um, or any of the other people that we talked to, their content would still live outside of YouTube. If they were to make their own video channel, that content would still exist, which makes them a creator. If you were to take that vehicle of that platform away from the influencer, there's the influence. Doesn't. There's no influence anymore.

Speaker D: What.

Speaker C: The term is more expansive in my opinion. Right. Um, it's not limited to a brand deal on social media. To me, you are an influencer if it's limited to a brand deal on social media. If your work lives beyond social media, that's a creator, and like, social media just, again, becomes the vehicle for your work.

Speaker D: But if that brand deal is just on YouTube, then it's okay.

Speaker C: You're trying to get me, Tim?

Speaker D: Well, I'm just trying to understand, especially, I mean, even within YouTube, like, are we making a distinction between YouTube proper and YouTube shorts?

Speaker C: Hmm. Now, now I've got to think, because with YouTube shorts, you could be an influencer, and it could strictly be an influencer if it's YouTube shorts.

Speaker D: Because I think for Sarah and I, our argument that creator and influencer is the same largely boils down to. There is no clear delineation. If we were going to treat these things as different, we would be able to define that difference very cleanly and explicitly. As this conversation is showing, that's not possible because they're not a different.

Speaker E: I think you can define anything cleanly and efficiently in media these days. But I think when we're talking about influencers, you know that they are in a business of like, yes, they are creating content, but that content is being used to influence, elicit some sort of action on behalf of another company. Like, yes, originally, they might have started out as a creator just doing product demos because they love the tech. But ultimately, at some point, the brand comes in and the entire sort of content strategy that they lock into is built around that dynamic. If you're a creator, it doesn't necessarily end there. Like, you know, those brand deals are part of a great or just. Or. And sometimes they're not. Sometimes the brand deals come in, sometimes they don't. But you're creating the content because, you know, like, that's you. You want to entertain people, you want to make them laugh, or, you know, you really like, um, video games or anime or whatever it may be. It's, it's, it's. It. There's more of a, uh. I don't want to say emotional attachment to it, but there's an interest in there that you're looking to sort of build an audience on the back of and not necessarily try and monetize it as along strict kind of guardrails, like, kind of brand deals. Not necessarily. Yeah, like brand deals. I think that's where we kind of start this debate. And then anything off the back of that is where the nuance sort of comes in. But as a baseline, that is how marketers would be thinking about it. And then, you know, that Will kind of change by platform, by vertical, and kind of so on, as you guys have already outlined. But, uh, at least coming out the gate, that's where you start. Because ultimately, yes, you know, everyone will start off as a creator, right? Because they're not necessarily, um, they don't know how this is going to sort of blow up. You know, not everyone's going to be a Drew Ski, not everyone's going to be a Lydia Tomlinson and so on. So, you know, that comes. The more adept you get as a creator and, uh, your ability to serve, fashion an audience just to push back,

Speaker F: you know, I feel like you guys are trying to attack this. Not attack this, but approach this conversation in terms of quality of work.

Speaker C: Such harsh words.

Speaker F: I know. They're really sharp as they're coming out too. I heard.

Speaker D: I was wondering if Sarah was gonna come in for like a DDT or a body slam. Like, I'm trying to go through all the wrestling moves that she's got in

Speaker E: stores in this conversation.

Speaker F: What is going on?

Speaker E: People's elbow to finish.

Speaker F: I'm being attacked.

Speaker D: I think you are attacking. And as your teammate, I am all for it in supporting you. Get him, get him.

Speaker F: You, Kimiko and Seb are approaching this conversation by attaching meeting to the word influencer creator to quality of work. It seems like in terms of the amount of money you're able to attract.

Speaker E: Not quality of work. Type. I'd say type not. Definitely not quality.

Speaker F: Okay, fair. Um, that still sort of like leaves it where I want it to say that sometimes we're able to report on things and say objectively because they are doing X in the industry, they equal. Yeah. Um, and then sometimes you have to trust your sources to say, I identify as such. And we then have to say, because you are operating in this environment, because you are in a place, um, that you are working with intent to create content. And even though you have an influencer of your direct family of five who really give a shit about what you say, you still do have influence among the community. You are a content creator and they're an influencer, and you trust your source to represent themselves fairly and you give them the space and the platform to do so. And so for me, I think that this is an issue that's less of. There's nothing hard to measure here. There's no, I don't agree with type of work influencing whether you use influencer creator. That feels squishy to me. Uh, I think this is a case where you have to trust your source to speak to the level of intent and motivation they have to operate in the industry that they want to. And by the way, the creator economy has matured so much that you're not really going to have a leg to stand on because some people view influencer more squishy than content creator. So then it's another thing.

Speaker E: But has it matured though? Because there still isn't tangible measurements sort of around it and no real kind of standard. So, you know, we talk about maturity, but it's uh, I find that really subjective. Like, yes, there's a lot of money moving into it, but it feels, it still feels to me like the Wild west. And conversation is, is indicative of, of that in many respects.

Speaker F: I mean, I think part of the issue that all of this is subjective, that we are having fewer collective lived experiences. Um, so how you define creators versus influencers ultimately is like, you know, what does it matter? What else do we have to relate to?

Speaker E: No, of course, I think, no. But I think we sort of teed this up before. I don't think it matters to most people, but I think it does to marketers. Hence why, you know, like Unilever will talk about its influencer team, but Nike will talk about a creator team. I think every brand will see it differently because they are going into it with slightly different, um, kind of goals and objectives. But I don't think that that, that negates that, that there is a, um, a different type of, of kind of creator, um, kind of out there and why we shouldn't sort of be having this conversation. Because I think it's needed. I think every couple of years it's probably, uh, a needed sort of temperature check on just the kind of state of the industry, right, to kind of see how far we've come and how far we've kind of still to go. And it sounds like, you know, from, from the kind of stalemate where there's still a long way to go. Because I don't know about you, Kimiko, but I'm definitely not convinced by what SJ and Tim have said.

Speaker C: I am absolutely not convinced. I stand still on this side.

Speaker F: My flippant comment about what does it matter is not about this conversation, which I deeply appreciate. I love talking about words. I'm a freaking ner. It's more about what it was a flippant comment about what does it matter between influencer and content creator, in which case it doesn't because they're the same as the rest of that.

Speaker E: Ooh, they're not.

Speaker D: I feel like there's a lot of posturing when it comes to how these terms get used by people in the industry, but also just people in the world. You know, like, the term creator really originated with YouTube stars because this was when an influencer really originated with Instagram. And it was around the same time frame in that, like, 2010s to 2014 time, where YouTubers didn't want to be grouped into, uh, under, like, influencers alongside Instagram people. Because at that time, being an Instagram influencer really just meant you took a nice photo of your breakfast or your outfit for that day, put a nice filter on it, and people liked it. And brand said, hey, you know, take my product, post that. And YouTubers were thinking, well, shit, I'm editing video, I'm filming. I'm doing all of these things. My content is more than just an Instagram photo. I need more of a, uh, I need a stronger term that reflects everything that goes into my content. I think there's validity to that, but at the same time, it undersells what would go into a lot of those Instagram posts, because those people were acting like photographers in a way. They were thinking about layout, they were thinking about lighting, they were thinking about composition, they were thinking, you know, about filters, they were thinking about captions. There's a lot of thought that went into the creation of their content. And so as much as you had YouTube creators and YouTube itself wanting to distinguish YouTube stars from Instagram stars, I think ultimately influencers get shortchanged for their creative chops and the production and the thought that goes into the content that they are creating, whether that content is a, uh, Get Ready with Me or a travel vlog or a Day in the Life video, there's a lot that can go into that. And so the olive branch I would like to extend to Team Kimiko and Seb, maybe it's a life raft. Is influencer is the term we use when the context we're referring to these people is discussing the creator's business? Creator is the term we use when the context is discussing the creator's content.

Speaker C: I can allow that you're better than me.

Speaker D: Agree. Was agree the word that you wanted

Speaker E: to use better than me? Kameko.

Speaker C: I will allow it. I feel like this is a conversation that could, as we've seen, go in circles and circles and circles, and it's hard to define. It has been hard to define for the last couple of years. Even marketers have a tough time making the distinction. Right. Um, so I feel like it is fair to say that There is a gray area that exists here, hence the need for this conversation. That I will allow. Except. Not convinced.

Speaker E: No, I think there is a really valid point about influences being essentially kind of undervalued because of the gap that's been allowed to sort of, um, develop between that term and what, uh, sort of creators kind of are, at least from a, uh, kind of perception. What I would say, though, I just wonder if it's right to think about it as, you know, influencers being the kind of business side, um, you know, and the creators more around the creative side, because I don't know. I don't know if some of the larger creators are best described by as using the term, um, influencer. Just don't.

Speaker D: But why?

Speaker C: Oh, we're back at square one.

Speaker D: We never left square one.

Speaker E: But they're not influencing me in any way. Like, to. Like, yeah, I watched their video, but I'm not. I'm not influenced by them in any way. Just like I'm m. Um, I'm there for vibes and the laughs and that sort of thing. Like, you know, I'm not.

Speaker D: You've never bought a Feastables or Chamberlain coffee.

Speaker E: But that's. But to that point, that's. That's the kind of boredom, business kind of side of things.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker E: Like, I'm not, You know that. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not convinced.

Speaker F: Maybe not influenced, but moved. Moved by them. To feel joy and to laugh and respond to them.

Speaker E: Then you're a celebrity then, aren't you?

Speaker D: Mm. Which is. Can be the part two of this conversation. What is the celebrity? But for now, I think we need to leave it at, uh, Sarah and I are correct, and Miko and Seb have their head also correct, I think. I think we'll leave it at agree, uh, to disagree. That being said, I feel like the fact that we have to agree to disagree confirms that there is no difference between the two. But that's just me trying to get in the last words there. I don't know if you want to go for, like, the jugular the end here.

Speaker E: Sneaky.

Speaker D: All right, well, this is a really fun conversation. Sarah, Seb, appreciate you both coming in. Sarah, appreciate you bringing the.

Speaker G: The.

Speaker D: The heavy ammunition with you.

Speaker C: It's been great.

Speaker D: Thanks so much for doing this, everyone.

Speaker C: We've given our opinions, but I think, given that it's a great area for us, I would love to know what marketers and advertisers think about this. So I want to throw it to the audience. Right. Um, please do email us Comment um, leave a comment on our on our page about who do you think won, first of all, this conversation and then to, um, how you define what is a creator and what is an influencer. We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker D: So if you'd like to register your opinion, um, especially your opinion that agrees with me, you can email me@tim digiday.com all opinions that don't agree with me, I will read. I will probably respond to with my arguments from this episode, but all opinions are appreciated. Some are more valid than others. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Jjay Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening. Get more from Digiday with our daily newsletter sent out each weekday morning. Visit digiday.comnewsletters to sign up.