The CFO Playbook: What Corporate CFOs Can Learn from Amnesty International

Hello and welcome back to the CFO Playbook podcast with me, David McClelland. And here on the CFO Playbook, we get under the skin of how world-class finance leaders leverage technology, set goals, make plans, manage teams, and much, much more. And in today's show, I'm speaking with a CFO who has dedicated his career to the not-for-profit sector and now brings that experience to bear as CFO of one of the world's most recognized human rights organizations, Amnesty International, about what financial discipline really means when the stakes aren't measured in profit, but in people's lives. The International Secretariat where I am, it's about a £100 million organization. What I like to do with my teams is to have colleagues who are working directly on the front line in human rights talk about the work that they do. I would say to look at using generative AI at least once a day. We don't take money from governments, just to preserve our independence. If you could automate one part of your role tomorrow, Rohan, what part would that be? Is maybe to have an avatar that attends meetings that I don't need to be at. I'm definitely pleased that the real Rohan is here for this meeting. CFO Playbook is here every month with exclusive finance leadership insights, so make sure you subscribe, browse through our back catalog, and get in touch as many of you do, your suggestions, really do help to shape our show. Right, let's meet today's guest. This episode of The CFO Playbook is brought to you by Soldo. Trusted by over 25,000 organizations across 31 countries, Soldo combines pre-programmed cards, an intuitive app, and a powerful management platform to replace manual processes with efficiency and control. To find out more or to book a demo, visit soldo.com. Rohan Hewavasanthe, Chief Financial Officer at Amnesty International. Welcome to CFO Playbook. Hello, David. Thank you very much. Great to join you today. And you're joining us from London, I believe. What does this work week ahead look like for you? Got a review of our pilots of generative AI, looking at that this afternoon, and then looking at how we prioritize that with our senior leadership team in a few weeks' time. The generative AI part there wasn't necessarily something I was expecting to hear you talk about there. So maybe we'll be able to pull on that thread a little bit later on. Just taking a step back first of all though, Rohan, for our listeners who maybe know Amnesty International as a campaigning organization, but don't necessarily know too much of the detail, and you spoke about the part where you work in the kind of centralized part there, give us a sense of the scale of the operation that you are running. Financially? The International Secretariat where I am, it's about a £100 million organization with around 570 staff. And then the whole Amnesty movement, which are another 69 separate legal entities in 69 different countries, altogether it's about a €400 million operation, um, with about 2,500 staff all told. Those 70 countries are where we can operate. There are obviously some countries where we can't operate or we've had to pull out in recent years. What we try and do is we do, uh, research into human rights abuses, uh, and then we campaign to protect people's human rights and to make sure that people enjoy the human rights that are enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. What I'd love to do today, Rohan, is to start with that really where you are right now, that this scale and the complexity of the operation you're running at Amnesty and what the therefore the CFO role, and maybe some of the other roles that you, that you wear as well there, what that really looks like inside such a global human rights organization. And then we can rewind a little bit and just trace back how you got there, because it's been a remarkable career across the not-for-profit sector from an unexpected origin, perhaps. And then we'll come back to some of the other questions, maybe some of the harder questions, the decision that a CFO in your position has to make. Does that sound like a fair plan for you, Rohan? Yeah, yeah, sounds great. All right, so talk to me about your brief at Amnesty International because CFO, obviously, I've seen from talks and from presentations and bits of public-facing work that you've done in the past that you've got quite a full scope of responsibility that maybe doesn't just sit within what might think of as a traditional CFO's remit. Paint that full palette for me? Yeah, sure. So, as well as the finance function, I also oversee IT, so the Chief Information Officer's remit comes under me, as well as legal. So this is the corporate legal function, which protects the trademark, deals with commercial contracts, legal registrations for the International Secretariat. And maybe just on that, Amnesty International as a movement is full of human rights lawyers, as you might expect, so specialists in that area. So that legal team is quite separate from those human rights lawyers, but interacts closely with them. The International Secretariat itself itself operates in around 16 countries as well. So we've got staff based around the world, as well as the 69 sections with their staff as well. And for our listeners who maybe work primarily in the private sector, and I suspect that that's many of them, what can you tell us about what that picture of income looks like at Amnesty? Where does the money come from and where does it go to? You mentioned $400 million globally there. £100 or so million for the international secretariat. What's the input and what's the output for that? Where that money comes from is, vast majority is from individual donors making gifts of, you know, £20, £30 a month or in euros. And then we also get some one-off donations to particular appeals. And we also get legacies, is a significant proportion of our income. What is a very small proportion is money from governments. We take money from governments for human rights education because we see education as a government responsibility. But other than that, we don't take money from governments just to preserve our independence. So it is largely from tens of thousands of donors. So it has meant that with the cuts in development budgets globally and the cuts in US aid budgets, then we've fortunately been immune from those cuts. And so we've preserved and managed to grow our income. Last year. When there is a news story, an injustice with individuals or groups of individuals, there's very often an Amnesty International spokesperson presence in some way. But in terms of where the money, how you use the resource that you have at your disposal there, what does that typically look like for you? Or is typical a difficult thing to talk about given the number of countries and the number of different ways in which you do work? The fundamentals of Amnesty International are doing research into human rights. So we've got researchers that cover the globe and, you know, particularly priority countries where there's conflicts and the gravest human rights abuses, such as Sudan, DRC, Democratic Republic of Congo, uh, Israel, uh, the occupied Palestinian territories, uh, and so on. Then we have researchers, uh, sometimes based in those countries doing work. Um, and then we also have, uh, legal and policy experts who are experts in international humanitarian law and human rights law, um, who can analyze situations., so that we can comment on, on situations. And that's why sometimes it takes us a, a bit longer than some other organizations to comment on particular situations, because we like to get our facts correct and we like to be evidence-based. And I guess what, what this brings me to now is then your role as CFO. Something that I think here on CFO Playbook and elsewhere we've observed is the shrinking distance between the kind of front end and back end. So more and more I hear that CFOs are increasing in private sector, increasingly connected to customers, increasingly involved in fundraising. And so given your role in Amnesty International, spoken about the income model, and then given the nature of the work that Amnesty does that you've just described, how easy is it for you to be close to that? How do you describe how much you are able to be involved in both that input and that output side? Amnesty International, compared to other fundraising charities I've worked for, such as British Red Cross or WWF, World Wide Fund for Nature, then less involved because the international secretariat receives about more than 80% of its income from sections. These are the separate legal entities around the world. So the biggest sections being Amnesty USA, Amnesty Netherlands, UK, France, Germany. Then we receive a proportion of the money that they raise, and we directly raise anywhere between 10 and 20%. Of our income from trusts and foundations. And where I am involved is we've got a pot of money that we look to allocate. It's a fundraising investment fund. We look to allocate that to invest in legacy income or enhancing particular markets. So we might be looking to invest in emerging markets like Korea and Taiwan. And so that's where I'd be involved. Whereas when I was, for instance, at the British Red Cross, then we'd be looking at investing in the brand, investing in legacies, investing in acquisition of individual donors. So much more closely involved in previous charities than I am here. Ultimately, you have— you're a financial steward of a human rights organisation. You have a responsibility to all of the donors and all of those sources of income to make sure that you are allocating resources as best as you are able to, then making those investments that you speak about as well. So in terms of financial discipline, what does financial discipline, something we talk about a lot again on this show. What does financial discipline mean for you in that context of responsibility? Yeah, I would say there's probably two or three main aspects. What one is that strategic resource allocation, looking to invest in new areas of work. So, uh, Amnesty International has been around for, uh, 64 years plus. So over time, what's been important does change. So we're looking at investing in new areas, such as we have a team, Amnesty Tech, that looks at the impact of technology on human rights. And then the second aspect is around cost control. And we've been acutely involved in that in the last couple of years. Because we had a large deficit at the International Secretariat of over £20 million, so a kind of bigger than 20% deficit 2 years ago. And we have brought that back to break even and better over 2 years. And the reason for that is that our income is volatile, that we, it's pretty unpredictable. As with lots of fundraising charities, it can be unpredictable, and then we need to manage that. So making sure that, yeah, going forward that we're cautious on increasing spend and that we also have the reserves to absorb any unexpected falls in income or unexpected increases in expenditure. Did you mention there was a third area on that, uh, financial discipline? Yeah, I think the, probably the third area is, um, is again on that resource allocation, but how we invest in growing the organization, um, because we want to ensure I think particularly in recent years with high inflation, that we are growing our resources in order to at least, uh, keep pace with inflation. Um, and, uh, yeah, make sure that we've got at least the same amount of resources to keep investing in, uh, in particular areas of activity. Sounds, sounds wise. Building for the future, building resilience in amongst the turbulence that you've mentioned there, and sensible investments as well. We'll come back to a couple of those points in a few moments' time, Rohan, but first I want to reflect back on your career journey to this point. And you've spent what seems your entire career in the not-for-profit sector across some of the UK's most prominent and varied mission-led organizations. You mentioned some of them already today. Take us through that journey, and I'm curious what you see as, well, whether there is, apart from the obvious not-for-profit kind of mission-led thing, whether there are any other threads that have run through it all for you. I did a degree in mechanical engineering, did a master's in mechanical engineering, and I was sponsored for a couple of years of that with IBM, which at the time was the world's biggest tech company. Mind you, it was before tech was cool. So unfortunately I missed that. Was a bit too early on that. And then I had a few years off traveling, working in different countries. And then I went into accountancy. I recall at the time I was considering doing law or becoming an actuary or an accountant. And I looked at it and thought, with law, I don't— it'd take me 2 years and I'd have to pay for my studies. Actuary would take forever. And whereas being an accountant, you joined a firm and they paid for you to do the exams and you got paid at the same time. So I think I did the cost-benefit analysis, so I probably was destined to to be an accountant. Um, so I, I then qualified with a small firm and then after that I took what was planned to be a career break. I went to China, uh, with my partner and now wife, uh, went out there for a couple of years. I worked with Voluntary Service Overseas, uh, in China. Uh, but then that sowed the seed of working in the not-for-profit sector. So, When I came back, I worked with a firm, accountancy firm, Sey Vincent, that specialized in the not-for-profit sector. And then after a few months there, I worked at ActionAid, which is an international NGO. And I had, for me at the time, that was a dream job working in internal audit, traveling to 5 or 6 countries. A year, looking at their impact, looking at their financial controls. Joined as the Director of Finance and Resources at Breast Cancer Care, which has since merged to be Breast Cancer Now, which is the largest breast cancer charity in the UK. So I was there for 5 years, and I think I've been now, been Finance Director for nearly 25 years. And in all that time, had finance and IT, sometimes HR, sometimes property and facilities. Uh, yeah. And so it's generally been quite a broad remit in the not-for-profit sector. And then quickly running through, uh, I then had a stint, um, as the Executive Director of Finance and Resources at the British Red Cross, there for 7 years, and then Royal National Institute for Blind People, um, uh, similar role there for a couple of years. And then I did a couple of years of interim work. In those interim positions, it's about understanding, surveying what's around you, and then depending upon why you were brought in, but being able to make stuff that matters happen as quickly as possible within that timeframe. Yeah, that's right. And it's certainly a, bit of an adrenaline rush to get to know an organization and implement things quickly and sort of get in and get out and feel like you've either held the fort or changed some things that the chief executive wanted changing. And Amnesty International during the pandemic, I imagine that was an interesting time. It clearly was an interesting time to be starting any new role, but with Amnesty International, I wonder what was flying across your desk in those first few months, given that it was during the pandemic, or was it kind of business as usual, given the nature of the research work that your team is doing? Yeah, I mean, the research work, they had to change their methodology because they weren't able to travel. So doing much more remotely, which has proved to be beneficial for, you know, countries where we can't enter, such as Iran, and other places. So managing the team remotely was of course a challenge, although we went back to the office as soon as things opened up, certainly in the UK, because it felt, we felt it was important to get teams together. Mind you, one big drawback was we were implementing a new ERP, new finance system solution and doing that remotely with lots of people remotely rather than everyone together in a project room, uh, did cause lots of delays and frustration. So that's not something I would recommend to try and do a project like that remotely. Just to close the loop there, Rohan, going all the way back to your master's in mechanical engineering, I just wonder if there's anything that why you did that and whether there's any sense of, I don't know, discipline, meticulous attention to detail, anything that is favorable as a mechanical engineer and that kind of grounding that you had in that area that has stayed with you in your work now on the accountancy path that maybe is a bit of a superpower. Is there anything that you still hold with you today that maybe you wouldn't have had, do you think, if you hadn't have done that mechanical engineering? Yeah, I think something that we studied there was around project management and those skills around project management and also working in multidisciplinary teams. So our final year project was working with engineers from other disciplines. So it's kind of appreciating what you know and what you don't know and appreciating other people's skills. And certainly I think the the appreciation of technology has been really valuable. And that's something I think not to be scared of technology and to be open to the change that technology brings. You know, I still remember it was in the mid-'80s. I had, you know, had a computer at my desk, which didn't happen in the workplace for another 10, 12 years. And I remember it was so exciting. I'd received them from colleagues in Japan and sort of, oh, I've got an email. So, but yeah, you never knew that it couldn't even imagine how things would change because, you know, at the time, this is something I was taught but haven't applied recently is how to write memos and go and hand them to different people. So being open to change and that increasing pace of change, uh, as well as being something that, uh, I think has, uh, has held me in good stead. I just want to come back to what you mentioned right at the start, which was about GenAI. Uh, what can you tell me about the role that GenAI is playing in an organization like, and or will potentially be playing if it isn't already, inside an organization like Amnesty International? I think there, there are two approaches that we have to this. One is the external human rights-focused, and then the internal, I guess the more traditional, what, how people will see improving efficiency, effectiveness. So externally, we're looking at the human rights impact of generative AI. So things like autonomous weapons, how they're being used, the use of algorithms and bias in generative AI, and how data is being scraped as well, and infringements on people's data and human rights through AI. And so we are very keen to ensure there are guardrails across the use of generative AI. And I think Most commercial organizations as well are very aware of the ethical implications of generative AI as well as impacts on staff and so on. And then internally, what we're saying is we want to maximize the and optimize the use of generative AI. You know, it's a technology that's here. It's very powerful. We want to use it and we want to use it to improve the work that we do on human rights. And it's, what we're saying as well is we're not looking at it to reduce our staff. What we're looking to do is to do more work with the existing resources that we have. And some of the areas that that we're looking at are being able to analyze and access over 60 years' worth of research and data that we've got. So rather than people trying to search manually through records, generative AI can really support that process. Help us write some of our work. Like consolidate some of our work. So, uh, one potential example might be we produce an annual report on the state of human rights, uh, around the world. And so based on our own research, can we use generative AI to summarize our own research into reports? Obviously there'll be a human in the loop. Um, and there's still quite a bit of tension in the organization around generative AI and its use. And we, it took around 2 years to develop our own policy on generative AI to kind of capture that external human rights focus and that internal drive for efficiency and effectiveness. Clearly many organizations, whether in the third sector or in the public sector or private sector, wherever, are doing a lot of pilots, trying to find return on investment on their AI pilots initiatives and so on. So I wonder what, with your CFO hat on, how you are looking at this AI transformation. You know, we've spoken about digital transformation and AI transformation, which is underway right now, and how you are assessing, understanding, where that return on investment is and where the right investment's next. I think one of the challenges with using generative AI is not knowing what the costs are because you can't pay by token. So it's really like a taxi meter without knowing, you know, how many miles you're going to use or without people seeing that taxi meter running as well. Talking to other CFOs and some CIOs, that's where the costs rack up and people don't, colleagues don't see the costs as well. So that will be a particular challenge. I'm hearing that as well. Those token costs, they do creep up and they do ramp up. And as much as you might want to accelerate and encourage AI use in an organization, getting a grip, getting a handle, and understanding what the implications of that are in terms of those ongoing costs is absolutely going to be a central question over the next 6, 12, 18 months. Let's see. Coming on to some of the challenges that you face right now, and the third sector has faced some real financial headwinds in recent years. You mentioned that £20 million deficit from a couple of years ago. How has that, that climate felt like from where you are sitting right now? Yeah, so I think going back to when we had the large deficit that was related to the cost of living crisis and high inflation post Ukraine, and there's potential to get there again with Iran and the closure of the Paul Mistry. I mean, hopefully what economists are saying is that underlying inflation is lower now than it was in 2022, '23. But, you know, if that crisis in Iran carries on, then we could, you know, see global depression. So I think it's being ready for that. And I think it's also being cautious around potential growth. And certainly one thing that we did back in 2023 was invest in our human rights work with the expectation that income would carry on increasing, but that didn't come through. But then once you've kicked off that investment, it takes a while to, to bring it back down when you've invested in people, invested in other activities. Then it takes a while to, uh, to bring it back down. Um, and what something we're doing in terms of that financial resilience is looking at diversifying our income. Uh, I mentioned, uh, we have very low levels of income from, uh, governments. Uh, we are looking at, uh, what's called multilateral funding. So, uh, that might be funding from the UN or multi-government sources where we feel that we could still preserve our independence and receive money from those organizations. But again, there's still political sensitivity around that because our independence and impartiality is crucial. But at the same time, we want to make sure that We're financially resilient, and so it helps to have a diversified income source as well. And in terms of collaboration with your stakeholders, with your CEO, CIO, the other leadership parts of the organization with those big decisions, you know, you mentioned the challenges there about accepting income from governments and so on to preserve that independence, which is so important there. How is the collaboration around the table with those other key stakeholders? How often are you chatting with the CEO and the other senior bodies there? Well, similar to most nonprofits, charities, we have the kind of senior leadership team, which comprises the Secretary General, who's the CEO, and then we have 3, soon to be 4 4 other senior directors, and so we report into the Secretary General, the CEO. And then on top of that, we have an international board, which is, they're all elected from members, from the membership, from the boards of the 69 different entities. So we have an international board, and currently They're located from Los Angeles to Melbourne. So when we have our virtual board meetings, that's a little bit of a timing challenge when we have them virtually, and then we meet in person 2 or 3 times a year. I meet the Secretary-General generally once a week, once every 2 weeks, and our leadership team meets at least, once a month, uh, it's actually for two half days to accommodate time zones because, uh, the senior leadership team is also, uh, based in several countries from, uh, Mexico to Geneva, uh, and London. And yeah, we work, uh, closely to, uh, together, uh, looking at, um, and looking at our strategy, aligning our resources to our strategy. And we've all been closely involved in that cost control process. It hasn't just sat, uh, uh, hasn't just sat with me. Um, it's, it's been a collective responsibility, uh, across the piece. And, uh, I think increasingly as well, everyone sees that, uh, their role in income generation and supporting that income generation, uh, piece as well. Because I think in charities, not-for-profits, you have a kind of a dual bottom line. One is to raise the money and to make sure, you know, there's healthy income coming through. And then the other bottom line is spending that money, as much of that money as possible on the charitable activity. Let's talk quickly about talent, Rohan, and attracting and retaining finance talent. What's your experience in the charity sector and how are you going about competing for the best people when perhaps you can't match the same salaries, the same package as a private sector equivalent might be able to? Yeah, I think that, that's where I think certainly Amnesty and certainly British Red Cross, where you've got a big brand, organization, then there are people out there who are willing to take a drop in salary or forego significant increases in salary to work in a mission-driven organization. And I think that's, that has been the case for several colleagues. They've been prepared to take that, that cut in salary. But obviously we need to be competitive as well within the not-for-profit, within the not-for-profit space as well. And in recent years, probably like lots of organizations then, staff turnover has been very low, just because of the employment market, and hopefully because we're a a good employer as well. And one thing that we're looking at doing is, you know, with staff turnover being low and we've had a recruitment freeze on for a couple of years, except for some exceptional vacancies, then we're looking to build skills and experience within the within the existing pool of talent. And one initiative from our CIO, Paul Smith, was to set up a data and skills academy, and that's using the apprenticeship fund because we were largely wasting a lot of the apprenticeship levy. So we're using that for people doing data and analytics course, and that's not just in finance, in fundraising, marketing, several other areas. We've got about 30 people going through that course. So that's been a great initiative to build on people's skills. A final reflection before we move into our quickfire questions that we end every episode with. How has leading in an environment like where you've worked almost throughout your career now, where the stakes are very high, How has it changed how you as a leader lead? What I like to see, and I think what motivates colleagues, is that line of sight between the work that we do and then the human rights impact or the charitable impact in charities. You know, how what we're doing directly supports that work and also supports the income generation and fundraising. So what I like to do with my teams is to have colleagues who are working directly on the front line in human rights talk about the work that they do and how the work that people in my directorate and IT, legal, and finance, how they support that work. And I think people find that very motivating to see that link in terms of how they work and how they're supporting that, that mission. It's good work. Good work that you do, Rohan. Quickfire questions that we ask all of our CFO Playbook guests. Okay, right. So if you could automate one part of your role tomorrow, Rohan, what part would that be? Responding to emails. On, have an automated response for emails that aren't that important, or to give me a quick summary of what's important and what's not. And then to focus on the work. Yeah. Is maybe to have an avatar that attends meetings that I don't need to be at. I'm definitely pleased that the real Rohan is here for this meeting. What emerging tool, habit, or idea do you think every CFO should be paying attention to right now? I think going back to the generative AI conversation, I would say to look at using generative AI at least once a day, just so that you are learning it, because I think you learn best by playing with it and just trying things out, trying and failing. So, I think it's definitely a tool that's here to stay and it will be transformational. So to learn more by playing with it. And which finance leader, past or present, maybe someone you've worked with in the past or someone you've watched from afar, which finance leader would you most like to see sitting in the CFO Playbook guest hot seat? I'm afraid I can't remember his name, but He delivered a great keynote speech at a conference a little while ago. He was the finance director or CFO at Wella, which is a pharmaceuticals and beauty company. And finally, Rohan, here on CFO Playbook podcast, we are building an actual playbook, a collection of top advice from finance leaders like yourself that we plan on turning into a resource for our community. So what top piece of advice, Rahul, would you like me to enter into our actual CFO Playbook? Yeah, I would say it's understanding the business, understanding the organization, and that's at a quite deep level in terms of understanding the drivers of the business. So understanding what's driving income, what's driving costs, and what's driving good performance as well in the, in the mission-related work. And I think that's a collaborative process working with colleagues in the organization, because finance and IT people will have the data and some of the information and some of the analytical skills, and working to test that with colleagues to check the mutual understanding of how, uh, the organization is working and where things are working very well and how things could be improved by really understanding the drivers for the organization. It's been great to speak with you today, Rohan. Thank you for joining us on The CFO Playbook. Thank you very much, David. It's been a pleasure. And thank you all for joining us too. Don't forget to join us every month here on the CFO Playbook for more insights from finance leaders. But for now, from me, David McClelland, and all of the team here, bye-bye.