Is Your Podcast Worth The Effort? Signs It's Time To Stop Or Pivot

Speaker A: All right, welcome back to the business of podcasting, episode 49, where today we're going to be talking about your podcast with the one question of is your podcast worth continuing, when to stop or pivot? So, I love this topic, right? Uh, because it's so important to a lot of people out there. Because as we do podcast audits, what we look for is more of the overarching questions. Do you continue? Do you stop? Do you pivot? But a lot of people who jump on the audits are looking for a silver bullet, rather like, how do I become instantly successful? Instead of asking themselves these macro questions which actually impact everything else. So if you're listening to this episode and you have a podcast and you've ever asked yourself, is this worth continuing? Or do I think that people are actually getting value from this? Or even if you're thinking about the future and looking for potentially, uh, like pitfalls or traps or things to avoid, then really, you need to listen in on this episode because we're going to be walking through a couple of really important points, going to talk about whether you need to review this yourself or whether you need to get someone to assist you with it. Friends, families, professionals, etc. We're also going to be talking about how you can elevate and evaluate your podcast to know whether you should be continuing, stopping or pivoting. And finally, we'll also be diving into exactly what steps you should be taking next, no matter what decision you're going to be making. So as we go through this, if you still need that additional help, be sure to go to valor media.com, check out the free resources, go and download whatever you need. Uh, because a lot of the content that we cover here is also available on the website as well. And if you have a friend who's in this situation where they don't know whether to continue to support a pivot, send them this show, send them this episode, and say, hey, this might actually be for you. So, without further ado, let's dive into the episode, The business of podcasting. Uh, now, Charlie, this is a question that I love. Do you continue? Do you stop, or do you pivot? And I always revert it back to relationships. Right? You invested too much time into it just to stop. So maybe just a little bit more time and it's going to get better, right? And then it still doesn't work. Maybe it's because we live too far away, so let's move in together, which is the equivalent of let's go and buy a new light Right. But then maybe we're just bored, so let's go get a puppy, which is buying a new camera in podcasting world. Uh, you know what? Maybe it's because we don't have shared accountability. Let's go and have a baby. Which is like getting a new studio, right?

Speaker B: Well, we all know that having kids

Speaker A: fixes relationships and buying new equipment and doing new things will solve a podcast.

Speaker B: We all know this. Probably your microphone, Grant. If you had a better microphone you have, your podcast would be successful.

Speaker A: People will listen to me. So I really boil it down to people will do anything to avoid the hard question, right? Podcasting is exactly the same. You will look at any metric to justify the actions that you're doing, right? So you go, it's my equipment. Oh, uh, you know, at least I've got some downloads. At least I'm growing somewhere, even though nothing's really working. So it's really fascinating because it's like, should you do one of these three options, continuing tweak, do a complete pivot, or completely just stop what you're doing? So the reason I love these topics is because you've seen hundreds, if not thousands of these and always like, we're m talking to you because, uh, it's like, well, everyone just wants a silver bullet. They just want this tweak to fix it. But I see them asking the wrong questions where really the right question is that, uh, macro view. So from your lens, how should people be looking at this? Are they asking the wrong questions? What questions do they ask themselves? Or is a silver bullet the right question and they just don't know how to ask it properly?

Speaker B: Yeah. What? Man out of the gate. Strong question, Grant. I like it. One of the things we recommend, right? Go hard, go early. Where I would start with this, I think that this is something at a minimum podcasters should ask themselves annually. I really do. And even if your show is somewhat successful, chances are you're leaving, uh, opportunities, growth, conversions, whatever it is on the table. I am yet to come across a perfect podcast. Like, even good shows can be better. Um, the other thing I'll really chime in on, this is where I think the seed problem is. Around this is that podcasting has, like, delayed gratification built into it. So when we sign up to this many people, I won't say all, but a lot of people run with the idea that, no, you just keep doing it for a year, expect nothing, and then eventually it'll pop. So if you're not seeing results right now, like, that's okay, like, oh, don't worry about it, you know, like no one says that. And that's, that's a lie. That's a complete lie. So, um, I feel like that happens and we've mentioned this in previous episodes, but what tends to happen, and this is a very common narrative that I think kind of, uh, encapsulates this to the downside. If someone's not seeing success in their show, they lose enthusiasm, they lose excitement, then they start making worse content and then that worst content actually has their show do even worse and then that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Because if your content is on the decline, you don't prepare like you used to, you don't research your guests or interviews like you used to, you don't post on social media like you used to, like you're creating the decline. And then it really is worth not continuing as well. So I would really want to line this one up at the start that all podcasts leave clues if they're worth continuing or not continuing or pivoting, right. There are signs you can look for if you know what you're looking for. Just like I'm sure in many other fields people can go in and go, oh, you just need to tweak that. It's just that they don't have that awareness to that type of thing.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I always look at it, right, like finances in a business, right? It's like if I don't look, it's not a problem. So it's if I don't look at my books, if I don't look at my bank account, I can't have money problems. Right. And I think this is why so many people get stuck, because they're either embarrassed to ask for help, they're shy to turn off a podcast or pivot a podcast or whatever because they've had friends, network, family, etc, invest time in either being a guest on the podcast or promoting it to their friends or doing something like that. They might be concerned that all their small successes, albeit quite little in some circumstances, will be lost. Right. And oh well, if I just hold onto this, that one sale that I feel like I might be getting could justify everything, the whole podcast existence. But also think that they've got this personal bias which comes back to that relationship, one which is I'm so invested into this right Layer where everything that you've talked about makes logical sense. But human beings are emotional creatures, right? It's very rarely that are they just going to move all emotion and just say, oh yeah, the logical thing is to go and look at my numbers and look for these trends to say, okay, well, I'm not putting in the same amount of time. I'm not doing all this stuff. It's like, well, if I could just stay on the hamster wheel, it's going to do something. Right?

Speaker B: I, I still haven't seen that happen, by the way. I'm still. Yet it's like it. I've never seen a poor quality podcast or a podcast in the wrong niche or whatever. The real issue is come good.

Speaker A: The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing repetitively and expecting a different result.

Speaker B: I'll tell you the one, though, that I think is, uh, harder. Much harder. Right. And again, you can look at this in a different way. Let's pretend you've got a podcast and your goal of the podcast is to sell, uh, five products a month. That's what you need for it to be a successful show. And it sells three. Right. So it doesn't get you what you wanted, but it gets you a little bit. And you sit there and it's like, it's much harder to recognize these signs when it's like you're getting like an average or like just under average result. And I think, uh, in a lot of cases, that's something I've seen a couple of times. Like, I had an audit I did, uh, maybe about three months ago now, where literally the question at the end of the form was, should I bother continuing with this? And it was like they had about 4,000 downloads a month, kind of getting some sales here and there. I felt it was a really good question. I felt it was an excellent question because this person had other things going on in their business that were clearly performing better, that they were looking at their show. And I think they waited too long to ask that question. I will mention, but I think that's a really common thing as well. You're seeing some success and that leads you to, uh, thinking that more is going to come from this when that's not the reality. You'd likely need to change something.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so, uh, it comes back to, we're all humans. These things happen. Have you ever had to jump into one of those camps of going, well, do I continue with a small tweak? Do I completely pivot or do I stop a podcast? Like, can you share a little bit of that? Then I'll jump in to share some of mine?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, this isn't my first podcast. Right. This is clearly not.

Speaker A: I've outraged a few outrageous. I thought I was the first notch on the belt. This is terrible.

Speaker B: I've had. I've shared this story a few times, but I'll always take an opportunity to share it again. Like, my first show was an absolute favorite failure. Like, an absolute failure. And I was doing two episodes a week, full video, spending money on ads, sponsoring other podcasts. Like, tactically excellent, strategically terrible. But I didn't know that. Um, I guess I'm just stubborn. But I would say that experience was the best experience I had to be qualified, uh, to do what I do today, because I went for a whole year, made a hundred episodes, and ended up with a show that didn't produce the results I want, didn't build an audience or a raving fan base. And I was depleted and frustrated, thinking I was doing everything right, because I was comparing it and going, well, I do two episodes, they do two episodes. But it just was. It wasn't the right show. Um, so that was really difficult for me. Uh, that hurt my ego and my pride in a big way. And I probably didn't podcast again for nearly a year after that. It was only after getting involved in a friend show and seeing some success of going, you know, like, the penny dropped, I could see where I was missing huge amounts of elements in my own show. But that, uh, that was my experience. Right? And I. It was very difficult. It definitely, definitely hurt me. It gutted me, because, you know, you're putting yourself out there on a podcast, Grant. It's never fun to have to admit your baby isn't cute, you know, but my baby is cute.

Speaker A: Just on that record, I was gonna say, everyone's baby is cute. It's like a mum's never gonna say, ah, damn. Like, my child just.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, but strangers on the street tell me my child is cute. No, I'm joking. I'm just. Girl.

Speaker A: Uh, I love it. Yeah. And I was in the same boat. I think I got to, like, an episode 64 or something like 65. So it's just over a year. Um, and it was. It was similar. All right. So we had the trending indicator. So at the start, it was like, bam. Like, let's go and throw this up on socials. Put it up on the page. Put a whole heap of time and effort. Like, I spent hours writing the copy for, like, the show notes, the emails that were going out, et cetera, et cetera. And then fast forward a couple of months, it starts to decrease. The email is not as long. It's not as personal. I just don't review it. As much it doesn't because it was just not generating the same amount of revenue and then continue a little bit more. It's like, you know what, if I don't publish this to the personal profile, it's not going to be the end of the world. And then it's just this slow decline until it gets to the point of just, okay, cool, let's just jump on 30 minutes, record something and publish it. But the writing was already on the wall six months prior to. Right. And then it was just publishing, publishing, publishing to the extent of how we won't have to look at analytics, we won't have to look at anything else. And then it's just cool. Well, what marketing avenues, bringing in more sales. Let's go and focus on that. Oh, we've got a podcast. You know what, instead of doing it Tuesday, we'll do a Friday. And then we let that run for a long period of time, would skip weeks. And then it was, we just sort of held onto that.

Speaker B: There's that self fulfilling prophecy as the uh, you have this moment where you're not getting the results and then you put in less effort and then it just cascades downwards. It's common. What was the uh, sign for you to stop? Like, what was the moment where it just like discontinued? Like you didn't make any more content?

Speaker A: Yeah, it actually, it actually got to a point where I started putting pressure on the relationship of going, well, I thought you were going to come up with some topics. No, I thought you were. Uh, and it was like, okay, cool, like do you want to schedule a conversation to go and create topics? Well actually maybe a meeting around doing this other marketing thing is going to be a better use. Yeah. Okay. And that was like the nail in the coffin which was like, are we actually generating anything from this? Because now it seems as though it's like we hate it, we don't enjoy it. Um, and we've built all of these marketing avenues to not need it, so why do it? And that was, that was the point. The straw that broke the camel's back was when we started like not wanting to do it. It was just like uh, everything else, anything else and everything else was more important. Walking along hot coals would be great.

Speaker B: I love that. I used to find excuses not to record as well. It's funny, the stories, um, again, I'm privy to so many of them, but it's just so common. Like it's so, so common but non spoken. No one admits it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's, it's Fascinating. And so when, when we look at these concepts of continuing a podcast, it's probably pretty very, it's probably obvious to the listener, right? So it's like, well, stopping is obvious and continuing is obvious. Are there two decisions that I get what a stop is and I get what a continuous, um, no worries at all. But this concept of a pivot, right, Is such an open ended concept because there's so many different types of pivots, right? And a lot of people that I've spoken to will think that a pivot is content production, right? So it's like, okay, well I'm going to pivot. I'm going to do two episodes a week. Or you know what, I'm going to pivot. I'm going to do a whole heap of 10 minute episodes as opposed to a 30 minute, 40 minute episode, right? Like that, that's what they perceive as a pivot. Or you know what, I'm going to put like a Q and A section in at the end. Right now I'm pivoting. So what is like uh, what are the different types of pivots that a podcast can do in this situation? So if we're talking about stop, continue, pivot, what are types of pivots in that sense?

Speaker B: I'll go through some I've seen that have been pulled off really well in my opinion. Um, I've seen some shows where the pivot they've made is simply changing from audio to video. And that's been a massive game changer. And I'll express why is all of a sudden they were able to reach the people they wanted to and get in front of those audiences and have the right content for promotion. And like it was a big difference in their podcast. We're also big advocates of that. I must admit that was something that made a huge difference in our show. And then in um, other shows I've been a part of, like there's not a show I do today that doesn't do video. So like that's a very obvious one. Another one I've seen, uh, done really well is I saw uh, someone who used to do these really long interviews and just people weren't getting through them and I was also burning the host out. So they shifted to doing shorter, more frequent episodes and people were, it was more digestible content. I thought that was a really good like technical change as well. Uh, the, probably the harder ones and the more important ones I've spoken very tactically in that first part is uh, sub niching. So maybe you're in a niche and you need to go deeper into that nation. One I've come across there's a lot of teachers out there doing podcasts, I've noticed, right. So these are uh, people that help teachers do better in like high schools and primary schools or middle schools in the US And a lot of them were trying to be um, you know, coaching all the teachers or training all the teachers. But the reality is managing a classroom of 5 year olds versus 15 year olds is so, so different. So like that they just weren't appealing to their market in the right way. So by going deeper into a niche they were able to do something really well. And I mean even again, I'll use this show as the example. Like this is for podcasters in general, but clearly we're biased towards video podcasting. We think it's immensely powerful and like that's ah, our view. So we want to be pushing towards that and encouraging people towards it. So I think sub niching can be a really, really good one as well as another type of pivot. Um, and then I would also say content type is another one I'll throw into the mix here. So some shows just do interviews and it's like all they ever do is build up other people who come on the show and make them look great and sell their books or products or whatever it is. And they never do like solo uh, episodes or internal episodes, uh, which we call that, which I think can make a big difference. I, ah, will mention one of the most successful pivots I've seen is when a uh, host goes from just having interviews to bringing in different types of content that can often be more relevant or more helpful to that market.

Speaker A: And it always, it always interests me, right, where a lot of new authors jump on a whole different podcast as a way to promote. And then me as like a podcaster sitting there going, I know that you're coming here to pitch to my audience, right? And you go, then the question in my back of my mind is like as a business owner, what's in it for me? How am I going to use this as leverage as opposed to just creating for creating sake. Like uh, I hope the author sort of publishes that. They did an episode with me so I can get some of their audience that's out of that. It's, it's always this interesting sort of point. So I get why people would pivot back to solving other people's problems.

Speaker B: See, I think about that one differently. I don't have a problem with authors coming on and uh, pitching their stuff or selling their book. As long as it's helpful to my audience. Right. That's the whole thing. Just, I don't think a podcast can be entirely that. And often authors have podcasts and it might turn into collaborations, it might turn into joint ventures. Like, there's a ton of ways to do that. But to your point, anyone who focuses only on promoting other people will probably not do as well as they could. And then anyone who only promotes their own stuff probably misses out on other opportunities that could lead to bigger things.

Speaker A: Yeah, so that's exactly what I meant to people who are doing just interviews and it's like author after author after content creator.

Speaker B: Common, unfortunately.

Speaker A: Yeah, but you're right to sprinkle it in and it adds value as opposed to. That is the reason why people would subscribe to your podcast is to listen to other interviews of people and always think of this concept called soaking. Right. So when I do a change in a business or a change in anything, there is a period of time that it needs to soak in order for it to bloom or show some kind of results. So imagine that I do a pivot, whether it's content creation or I don't interview as many people and start adding value and solving problems myself, so I'm seen as the authority, et cetera. How long do I need to let that soak before, before I go, cool, I did a pivot, now I need to do another pivot again.

Speaker B: Yeah, that, that is a great question because, uh, I would think in the example here, let's say you pivot a show. The reality is, is that the next time you publish with a different angle on your show, the likelihood is the first thing you're going to see is a down. So if you were in the teacher example, you were, you know, making content for everyone, then suddenly you decide, no, I'm only doing classrooms of five year olds. You know, uh, anyone who's was in those older classrooms will probably no longer listen. So you can see at times when you make a sub niche change that downloads would drop. Um, you can see that it's not all cases, but I think it's good to be prepared. When you make a change in a show, it's not going to be an instant up. It can be, but in likely there is a change of cycle and things that go from there. Um, the second thing I would just really, really throw into that is there is actually examples where it does practically be instant. So if you have been promoting other authors in your example the whole time and then suddenly you do an episode that's more relevant to your own stuff. You might see a sale that day, like it can happen. I've certainly seen that as well. The thing that I would really encourage to encapsulate this though, is that before you make a change, get your data right, like get your analytics right, know where you're at. So when you do make a change, there's signs that you can measure to know that this was a good change or not a good change or a good pivot or not a good pivot. Now in general in podcasting, because there's like a delayed cycle. So like, you know, you make a podcast episode, you might have to make five before people are into that topic and ready to take an action. Or it might take months. So I wouldn't pivot, uh, too quickly. I would want to do it for at least, I'll say three months, 90 days.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I always come back to that quarterly reviews, because it aligns to the business quarterly reviews. It aligns to removing a whole heap of sort of one offs. Where a lot of people go, I had a really bad day, so the business is, let's burn, let's burn the boats and it's done. And you go, well, no, if you just zoomed out a little bit, you just like one bad day, but three months of just amazing results. Uh, and I always relate it back to like a sales and marketing cycle, right? Like if you turned off your businesses marketing today, sales probably would not feel that from a cash in the door revenue perspective for a week, four weeks, depending on your sales cycle. And so I see it as very similar where you pivot today to your point, you'll probably drop a little bit in listeners, but the compounded growth or what you will see over time, you will not see that is, it is a laggard of the change that you've made now. So I completely agree to the quarter and it's, it's interesting cause in a minute I'm going to be walking through, well, uh, how do I know if I should continue pivot and all that kind of stuff. But at that point I am always curious if someone decides to just stop. We've been talking about pivoting, but imagine they just stop. Do they cancel their podcast hosting? Do they delete their website? Do they just wipe everything? Right? Like I was listening to a podcast that we shared together was like two days ago, which the podcast was recorded in 2014, it's currently 2022. And then the whole show stopped in 2016. I'm consuming it six years later, or what is it? No, seven years later after the episode was recorded and six years after the show was shut down, like, is that a good strategy? Or If I've recorded 100 episodes, to use your example, And I go, nah, I'm done. Delete it all. Let's move on.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question as well. It's an interesting one. So I'll. I'll look at it in this way. Um, so the business of podcasting this show didn't make an episode for nearly a year. And it was, uh, a, uh, turbulent time. We've gone through some massive growth at Valor Media and hiring people. And, uh, I got busy with other things. Uh, I had high priorities that I needed to take care of or we needed to take care of. Now would you believe it that in that year, so we didn't make an episode for a year. I still had people getting on my email list every month from previous episodes. I still had people booking in for audits from the episodes. I had people emailing me saying, when season two, I had people on calls going, charlie, when's the podcast coming back? And, um, I look at that and go, this is the reason why, if you've got a good show and you do take a break, you wouldn't want to, like, turn it off. These were all the signs I looked at on why we're doing a season two of this show is because I feel that there was enough markers out there, like, it got downloads. I can't believe how many people listen to episodes and came back and found things that. It was much more than I expected. But if you, uh, to make a point here, if you stop for a break or anything like that and you see those signs, that is the thing that you're on a winner. You need to. You need to absolutely go back to what you were doing there. You need. That is a show worth continuing. Um, on the other side of things, if you know your show isn't getting you the result you want, so maybe it's leading to the wrong type of leads or sales or not producing any. There's no downside in turning something off that isn't working at all. There really isn't. And often it can be counterproductive to leave things up. And I think it can be a really good idea for a lot of people to start clean at some point if they're making a big shift within their business itself or a big shift within their podcast and everything they're doing as well. The One that's probably more interesting is that sub niche one. So if you had a wide niche and you're niching it down a touch, I would probably still keep the same podcast going. I wouldn't start a new show or anything like that for it. But you will have this back catalog out there that is running in an evergreen way and, um, that is worth keeping on. But there are many shows out there like the one which, uh, we'll give it a shout out. It's Sales, marketing profit by James Schremco and, uh, Taki Moore, I believe it is. Yeah. Um, like, that's a fantastic show that I know still gets an enormous amount of downloads and is an evergreen piece of content. But, um, I look at it and go, isn't that the dream as podcasters? Isn't that what we got into this for is we want to make something that people will listen to, not just when it comes out, but down the road? Like, that's a great sign of a good episode?

Speaker A: Uh, I 100% agree. And I was sitting there, I was grateful that the content was there because, uh, it was exactly what I was looking for at that exact point in time. So now I'm gonna ask you three very specific questions.

Speaker B: Let's do it.

Speaker A: All right. And it is relative to the exact topic we're talking about. Right. So if you're listening to this, like, after these three questions, you know exactly which lane you fall into, because you know sort of what to evaluate. So the first question is that, uh, I'm a podcaster. I've got an existing podcast out. Might be episode 31 30. It doesn't really matter. How do I know if I should continue my podcast? Like, what is the things in a checklist? I know we've kind of spoken a little bit about trends and looking at your downloads and all the like, sentiment and all this kind of stuff. But, like, down to the what the meat and bones of it. Uh, what, like, how do I actually know if I should continue my podcast?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I would say the most important thing is that it achieves the goal. So if you got into podcasting because you wanted to build relationships and it's helping you build relationships, you should continue. If you got into podcasting because you wanted to help convert warm leads in your business into sales, and it's doing that. Continue sell products, whatever it is. Like, if the podcast is achieving its goal, you should continue. Um, so that's the like, uh, macro framing or the above few framing. And of course, if the opposite is happening, you should be reviewing. So some signs and things I look at here that are really important in my mind is I look at downloads or views. So you know, downloads mean things like Apple or uh, sorry, itunes or am I. And then views. If it's YouTube and video like that. If your downloads and views have become stagnant or into a decline, you should be reviewing. This is a sign that something needs to change or you're not, uh, your show isn't worth continuing. The second one I look to there is email opt ins. Now the reason I say that is most podcasts and if you're not doing this you should be, uh, will have a resource, uh, that goes with their show or you're able to subscribe to get updates or some something to get email lists. If no one's getting on your email list, that's probably a sign that you need to review things here because you should be growing an email list fairly easily in most niches if you're doing the right things with the podcast. Third one I would look at here is website traffic. So if you have a show, the chances are that people are going to come and check out your stuff if it's not producing any traffic or any um, relative way of you knowing people are coming to have a look at what you do. Maybe it's social hits, I don't know if you get that on some of the platforms, but you should be seeing signs that people that listen to your podcast hunting around to know more about you. And then fourth, uh, would be a conversion points. So if it's a sale, um, or a relationship or whatever's appropriate to your show from there. Now by just evaluating those four and having a good feel on it, you can very much know if you're in a stage where you need to pivot or if you're someone that should uh, consider not continuing with your show.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I find it interesting because I'll piggyback off the top of that because you used a really good example before, which was, hey, if I want five sales a month from my podcast and I'm only getting three, what do I do? And that's almost the view of saying, okay, we'll take that data, track it month on month on month and just continue because the risk of you continuing is like minimal. Like this is, it's just your time, right? So if you're sitting there with a finger on the pulse across all those metrics you've just shared, as well as knowing that this is the exact outcome I'm going for, which Is five and you've decided to continue. If after three months, six months, it has an increase from three to five, and it bounces between two and then four and then three, great. Then you get into the next part I'm about to step into, which is. Okay, so, uh, it's not getting me the result. My podcast is not getting me the results I'm looking for. Right. So I know now the metrics I've reviewed, and I've seen it over a period of time. It's not just a blip on a radar like Christmas where everyone just disappears. I now know I need to pivot. So when I'm looking at going cool, numbers are not validating this. I know I need to pivot. What is the best way for me to understand what type of pivot to go for? Because I know that we ran through quite a few different strategies before, but it's like, well, what applies to me? How do I know that I need to go sub niche? How do I know that I need to go different types of content, more educational content, etc. Like, is there a telltale sign of, uh, which way or which pivot applies most based on me doing a self assessment? Or do I have to go and get a professional like yourself to go and review my podcast? Like, is there something that I can do at home to understand what pivot I should make outside of just knowing I need to make a pivot?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I'll even give some here. I think people can do a bit of a self assessment, but this is like, all things. Like, there's always going to be a difference between doing some DIY work around the house and hiring professionals. The idea of hiring someone who has experience is they know where to look, they know the moves to make. Where if you're doing things yourself, you can, uh, in all honesty, you can lie to yourself, you can misguide yourself, and that can be dangerous. I think it's great to get advice and feedback on things. Um, and I'll give you a few. Um, obviously yourself, you've got to be very careful of because we're great at lying to ourselves.

Speaker A: I would lie to myself.

Speaker B: Yeah. So client feed. Our, uh, client or listener feedback would be a great one. Uh, I would look to, like, analytics because it's pure. And then you might get reviews from other podcasters, if, you know, from other podcasters going, hey, you know, how are you tackling this? And then, of course, there's people like myself out there. Although I say our, uh, podcast audit is the best. Absolutely Absolutely. Uh, but I think that's a great way to look at it. But I'll, uh, I'll give away a hint here or a little thing that I really look towards a lot. Let's say you've got a show and it's kind of like, you know, just do an average for whatever reason and you don't know why. I think the best place to start is the tactics. Because if you've got a show where you think your strategy is okay and just the tactics aren't working for you, I would very much start researching what similar shows are doing for tactics and see if you can apply any of them. So, for example, in the example we've been using here, the show that's only getting three styles instead of five. I know straight away there's two reasons for that. I know. So number one is you're probably not making the content to get people to convert. So if you were to change one episode a month to be m more focused on converting, could you get that up to five? I'll say maybe. But if you don't know to look for that, that could be very difficult. Um, the second thing is I, ah, look at it and go, well, have they provided links at all the right places to make it easy for people to convert? So maybe they're reading out a complicated URL or not putting a link in the show. Notes, like all those little things can make a very, very big difference towards solving that problem. But again, if you're guessing and hoping people are going to read your mind, it can be a very difficult game to work that out. And that's where feedback from people that know what they're doing can be very important here.

Speaker A: I also like that because if you think about it from a macro view, if you're trying to evaluate downloads on a daily or a weekly basis, but you only do one episode a month that pitches people, it's irrelevant to evaluate day by day or week by week, which means that you're only going to get three episodes in and a quarter of, like, solid pitching to evaluate. Is this pivot working or not?

Speaker B: Isn't it funny how obvious that can sound though? But we can be blind to it when it's our own show. Like it's, uh, what do they say? You can't read a Coke bottle from the inside. And, uh, that's what makes it very different. It's like, uh, Tiger woods can't critique his own golf swing. That's why he has a coach. Right. Sometimes when we're in it, we don't see some of the obvious things and us included. Like, it's, uh, not something where I want to pretend I'm better than. I definitely did the same thing and probably still do exterior help.

Speaker A: But it's also that. That unbiased view, right? Like, Tiger woods might be trying to, I don't know, hide a hip problem that he's got. Not, like, just subconsciously. So it's just like twisting his hips, right? He's just unbiased. He's just, Just doing it because he doesn't know that he's not doing it. And so someone comes in and is like, I think you're bringing a personal approach to this. I think your body's trying to overcome this, which is similar to that relationship view, right? Like, if you stood out of that relationship and said, oh, actually, that's pretty bad. Uh, now I understand what my friends have been saying or haven't been saying to me. You know what? There's something to change here. I completely, completely agree with that.

Speaker B: Do you know what golfers and podcasters have in common?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: It's like, let's pretend you're a golfer, right? And let's say you're hitting the ball terribly. It couldn't be a swing. You'll get new clubs.

Speaker A: Yeah, damn.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: It's the clubs, it's the microphone.

Speaker B: Absolutely. It's like, this is the psychology of people, right? If you can see this, you can work above it.

Speaker A: Well, it's, it's, it's everyone else's problem but my own. Um, and the good thing I like about the pivot concept, right? So imagine that you go sub niche. Imagine that you go, uh, and create different content. Create a new. I know, like once a month you do a piece of content to convert people, or you're doing a lot of interviews and now you're not doing as many and you're trying to add more value to people. The risk reversal is, it's nothing. You go, cool, I'm going to do this for three months, six months, nine months? And if it doesn't work, what's the worst thing? You go back to what you were doing before, right? Or you pivot and try something else. That's the greatest thing about podcasting, is it's not set in stone. Sure, the episodes you produced previously are there, but every pivot that you do whilst you try and find that sweet spot is a great position for you to go and figure out what doesn't work, which gives you the competitive advantage to everyone else in your niche. Try to do the same thing. That's not applying that same changes completely.

Speaker B: I like to think of my, my podcast and even the ones we work on as a continual work in progress. I don't ever. Because the tactics will change, right? You know, Yellow Pages, right? It was a thing. Blockbuster was a thing. The tactics change. So we have to be open to always seeking progress as podcasters all.

Speaker A: Uh, right. So one of the last questions I'm going to have to ask you is, so I now understand what I should do and what I should look for in order for me to continue my podcast. I now understand, okay, well, if that metric's not hitting, I should look at a pivot and the types of pivots and how I should go about that. But imagine that there's just like, there's no chance. Like, how do I know that? It's like, nah, uh, I just need to stop this podcast and just, like, cancel this whole thing and just not go again. Whether it's because it's just not working for me or whether it is to shut that down and start something else, because maybe it's called, I don't know, dental marketing. And, uh, the pivot that I need to make is to go to childcare marketing. It's just the branding is not going to work or nothing's going to work. How do I know? Right? Like, is it after I do 10 pivots and try for three years and I just go, ah, now it's not working? What is that point?

Speaker B: Yeah, another great question there. I would say if you make a pivot and you don't see an improvement substantially in the direction you're hoping for. So use the teachers as the example. Um, you were trying to get to all the teachers. Like, it doesn't matter who you teach. I want to help you. To you just doing the five, uh, year olds, right? If you make that change and go for 90 days and you don't see improvements in areas, then I would say that this maybe isn't the right niche for you. I think if you're doing a sub niche and that doesn't hit, uh, along with some other changes I would probably recommend, but we'll leave that out of this for now. Uh, you can very much see if a niche is worth continuing on within that point. The, uh, second sign is that if you're someone where maybe you've been doing your first 10 episodes or your first 30 episodes or whatever it is, and you're really seeing donuts, like, absolutely, it's a high likelihood your show is not worth considering. You may have just picked the wrong show or you may have misjudged appeal. I know most podcasters start on a whim, they don't do market research and actually find out if it's a show people want, um, and be okay with that. You, you, ah, are far better off stopping a podcast that's never going to work or only produce mediocre results, um, than continuing on with one in the hope that it could become something like, it's just a waste of energy.

Speaker A: No, and I completely agree. But even to that point, and always, always come at it from like the Black view or the Black Hatter's view, right? Which is like the negative Nancy, if you will.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, the Black hat, which is like, what happens if I stop this thing? What happens? And so to your point, it's like, well, just pay that five, ten dollars a month for the hosting and just keep it going. Right? Because the cost for it to sit there for the downloads, it might be getting 100 downloads a month or whatever it is, might actually outweigh the benefit, might outweigh the cost. But also on the back of that, as you were saying before, like, the business of podcasting podcasts sort of went on a bit of a pause, bit of a hiatus, and then we picked it back up and went for a season two. And so, okay, well, if you stop it and it's still there in 12 months time, you go, ah, uh, now I get it. Now I figured out my niche from other marketing efforts. I'm going to pick this up again, right? So, like, it's not the end of the world. It's not like you're, you're saying goodbye to the first son that you've ever had. It's just, it's putting on the shelf and you can go and pick it back up or rebrand it and go again.

Speaker B: It's fascinating. The narratives podcast is building their mind. It really is. Like some of the things where it's like, no, no, no, you couldn't possibly stop. It's like, no one's gonna die. It'll be okay.

Speaker A: I'm here now. So it's been a fascinating show. We've covered off a whole heap of stuff. The probably a couple of the big takeaways for me is the realization that every single person has this personal bias. And I was a big factor of this when I first started my business, which was, no, I did a three year, uh, full degree. That actually tells me I'm an entrepreneur, I know how to run a business. I don't need anyone else's help with it. It's the same for podcasters, right? We always want to stick with our show. We've put time into the branding, we've put effort into the structure. Our friends tell us that it's good, maybe family members tell us good, but we really need that unbiased view to come in and say, no, this is probably the wrong way and you're probably not going about it the right way. Uh, the second one which was the biggest takeaway for me was the different types of pivots, right? So you can go content, you can like the type of content, whether it's a interviewing, too much pitching too often, but also diving down into like, data. Don't look at the daily data or the weekly data. Look at macro. Is this driving your business forwards? Or whatever the agenda is you're looking for, like, relationships or otherwise. And you also need to review that regularly and consistently. But also the fact that whatever change you make is not permanent. If you continue doesn't mean you can't pivot in three months. If you pivot, it doesn't mean you can't pivot again in six months. If you stop it, it doesn't mean you can't repick it back up in 12 months. Right. You can always do something else. That was just some of the big things that I took away from it. Uh, what about yourself, Charlie?

Speaker B: I think the, uh, even in reflection on this episode, I think the biggest thing is recognizing that if you, you would already be seeing the results if you knew what you were doing. Uh, like you would already be seeing it. If you have these doubt questions, if you're unsure if there's anything in there where the measurements and goals don't match up, then getting help or trying new things or doing a self audit or doing one with us, like it's essential, it's not optional. You can't keep doing what you're doing if it's not hitting you in the direction that you would like to go.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I always find that interesting. Right. Which is that people just continue on down the path.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, instead of just going and seeking that help. And to that point, if you are in that camp and you did want someone to help you out and review and say, hey, maybe you shouldn't continue, continue this. Or maybe this is the type of pivot you should be going in. Um, because we do listen to shows, we do evaluate your brand, we do see what you are doing. Go to Valor Media. That's v a l h e r um, vallowmedia.com and go and click on the podcast audit and book in an audit with us, because it's probably going to be the best way for you to find out whether or not it is worth continuing, stopping, or even what type of pivot you should evaluate before you do make a pivot. And now that you've listened to this episode, um, if you do like this content, feel free to subscribe. Or if you have someone in mind that's going through this situation right now, feel free to send them the link to this episode that they can consume and understand exactly what we've been talking about where they can make those decisions for themselves. So thank you again for joining us on the business of podcasting, and we look forward to catching you in the next episode.