Barbara Nixon: Step Back Without Stepping Out

Speaker A: There are business leaders that are making so much more than profit in their enterprises. They're elevating their businesses, teams and themselves to add more value. And so can you. Welcome to the Chris Cooper Business Elevation show with host Chris Cooper. If you were looking for ways to elevate success while contributing to a better world, you'll want to listen in for the next hour. Now here's your host, Chris Cooper.

Speaker B: Hello, this is Chris Cooper and a big welcome to the Business Elevation Show. It's great to be back with you again for yet another week. If you've not listened to the show before, um, this show has been running now for 15 years. One of the longest running business podcasts in the world. Ah, and what I love to do is bring to you exceptional guests who are doing amazing work from um, uh, some parts of the part of the world and really care about contributing to improving the world and the situation rather than adding to all the challenges. Um, so, you know, we really talk about, um, uh, the fact that good, ah, matters. That's what's really important in our work and in business. Um, I believe, and this show believes that we should utilize our time to contribute something bigger than ourselves and make a real difference. Um, so, um, my guest today is Barbara Nixon. We're going to be talking about. Step back without stepping out. Um, before I introduce you to uh, Barbara, I'd like to say um, a big thank you to my guest. Last week I had Mark Chandler on the show, uh, from the United States, from California. And Mark, um, incredible experience and background. What he talked about with me was his new book about the age of surplus. Uh, and um, if you ever want to know a little bit about some of these interviews before you listen to them, you can go to chriscooper.co.uk, scroll down to the bottom of the page and you'll find a precis on the interview. Um, but Mark is really um, pointing out from his background in the sort financial uh, markets is that actually um, we have um, enormous resources and enormous abundance, uh, in the world, yet, um, we have enormous poverty. Uh, the difference between those who have and those who don't have is quite enormous. And also the volume of stuff that we produce so that people consume and spend upon is incredible and is really pushing uh, the world to the brink and causing lots of damage. We also talked quite a bit about the challenge between freedom, liberty and equality. But if you're interested in um, you know, something that I think is very, very important in the world right now, do go and check out that interview people love, um, the conversation. Um, so I would go into the archive and take a look. So my guest today, we're going to hear today from uh, Barbara Nixon. Uh, and I think this is a really important question and maybe one that we've not talked about too much on this show is about the need sometimes to step away. We can really get stuck um, in our businesses sometimes to a great level. Something I'm working on at the moment. How do I keep, make sure I keep that helicopter vision and don't find myself in the operational uh, components of the business and overloaded managing that as carefully as I can. I think there's a real secret there which um, to greater success and to freedom and fulfillment is that ability to not necessarily do more, but also know when to step back, know when to say no. Um, my guest today is a leadership coach, a speaker and author. She's ah, the founder of Smash your own Ceiling. Her credentials include being a fellow of the Professional Speaking Association. I think I'm still one of those. Ah, too. She's um, uh, she's got lots of uh, incredible qualifications around nlp. She's been all sorts of uh, tv, um, media shows, things um, like the Jeremy vine show and uh, all sorts of different things. BBC Radio Leeds and Sheffield. And she's also co owner of a roastery and uh, coffee shop which uh, I think. Interesting. We'll find a little bit more about that soon. But um, she's worked with loads of, loads of big organizations. Um, she worked with four big retailers in the UK. She's run her own business since 2010. She works with loads of CEOs, uh, managing directors. And I recently was on her podcast which was great and I was just really impressed with her. Huh. Articulateness, her uh, great questions, uh, and the way that she thinks and uh, works. I thought it'd be fantastic to have join us today and explore this subject of stepping back without stepping out. So um, tell us a little bit Barbara, about especially a big welcome. Where's home? Anyway?

Speaker C: Hi Lee. Uh, Chris, thank you so much for having me. Lee

Speaker B: introduced us.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Lee introduced. So, um, I'm in Leeds in Yorkshire in the uk. So in the, in the middle of the country.

Speaker B: Excellent. I think I probably had a, I've lost a bit of it but I probably had a fairly um, related accent at one point in time. But I probably noticed when I say love and bath.

Speaker C: Yeah. Where are you from originally?

Speaker B: Scunthorpe. By family.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just, it comes through every so often, doesn't it you don't, you don't ever lose it.

Speaker B: My first, my first job when I went down to London, my uh, boss took me aside after a couple of weeks, said no one understands you. So

Speaker C: uh,

Speaker B: I had to work, work on that. So tell us a little bit then about life in Leeds when you were maybe growing up and you know, what, you know, what kind of influenced the Barbara Nixon that people know today.

Speaker C: So um, I was thinking about this actually and uh, I'm Leeds born and bred. So I still, I grew up here, I still live here and I was born um, into a multicultural family. So my mum's Polish, my dad was from Leeds. Um, and as a result we, I definitely had my foot in both camps. So I went to school, English school Monday to Friday, Polish school on Saturday. And then we were usually doing something in the Polish community on a Sunday as well. So I was always around lots of very different people. And even from a young age my. Both my parents were people, people they liked. They were curious about people. They were, they had no problem talking to strangers. You know, they were very interested in, in people and, and um, and in the community as well. So I was kind of the, the child that was brought on to do, I don't know, take part in shows in Polish school and be on the stage or sell raffle tickets or. You know there was always something going on, um, which really suited me, it suited my character. Uh, again I'm a people person. I was very curious. I liked to just sit back and watch like the grown ups talk and look at their body language and see their feel, their energy and all of that. So it's funny, isn't it? I think it was Steve Jobs that said you can join the dots backwards, but you can only join the dots backwards. And looking back to how I grew up and, and just being part of that, that just a multicultural m. Kind of uh, day to day life was um, definitely part of my. The reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. That said, it also made me feel like, you know, I knew that we were different because around our neighborhood we were the only ones that were, were um, that had those traditions or you know, that I couldn't play out with my friends on a Saturday because I still had school and you know, so there was that definitely a bel. Belonging kind of. Um, I think I noticed that I didn't actually belong in each in either camp. Um, but as a result I belonged to both which was, yeah, it was just a really exciting place to grow up.

Speaker B: Yeah. And how did that. That Polish element? I. A couple of years ago, I took my youngest son out to Poland and we saved some wonderful Polish people in Warsaw. And they gave us a really great experience to understand the history. And it's just, you know, incredible and quite shocking history in Poland. Um, you know, particularly during the. With the war and uh, Russian, you know, and those sorts of things. Uh, how did that, um, that influence you, do you think? And

Speaker C: just, um. I. It just felt very natural, you know, so it probably didn't influence me until I was much older. I mean, the first time I went to Poland was. I think I was 11. So back then the. The Berlin Wall was still up and, um, there were still rations, but, you know, and. And um, there was a real shortage of food in the shops, you know. So for me, it was a real culture shock seeing that certainly, um, at that age. But it also made me really appreciate what we had when I came home. Um, but it wasn't until I got much older and started doing my own research and looking into family trees and things that I actually realized just. Yeah, what it was really like. Yeah, certainly for my mum growing up.

Speaker B: Yeah. You told me a story when we, uh, first spoke about you and your. Your father, uh, and his former boss. And I thought that was interesting because I think that that seemed to resonate with. With you at, uh, a point in time in your life and it seems to have impacted you. Now tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker C: Yeah, so I think I was about five or six, uh, seven, that. Those kind. That kind of age. And, um, my dad was never one for birthdays. He was a very fun dad, you know, um, great person to have around. But on his birthday, a birthday card had come through the post and land on the doormat and his face would absolutely beam. And I remember one time, and I think, yeah, around that age. And I actually asked him, I said, you know, who's the card from? And he said, oh, it's my. My old boss, Jack. And he said, I've not worked with him for years, um, but he always remembers my birthday. And he says that's the mark of a great boss. And even then I didn't really understand what that meant until again much later. But even then I saw the. I was on the receiving end of that ripple effect. I knew what it was like for somebody to really feel appreciated by somebody, by that they'd worked with, that in that moment. He felt valued, he felt special, he felt very much appreciated. He felt like, you know, um, he'd not Been forgotten even after all those years. Um. Now I never had the privilege of meeting Jack, or maybe I did and I just don't remember it. But it was always spoken of in such a good light. Um, and I can understand why just seeing him, you know, beam, absolutely beam with gratitude when he got that, that card. And it's nothing special, it was just a birthday card, you know, it was that seemingly insignificant thing. It cost the price of a postage stamp, but it made the com. The world. It meant the world to my dad. Yeah.

Speaker B: So M might be an aside, but it's related. We, we have a story in our family about. But it's about Christmas cards. Mhm. And my father worked in the Scunthorpe Steelworks and he had a member, uh, of uh, his employment who he had to pull up a number of times for falling asleep inside machines and things when he was supposed to be working. Um, and uh, had some concern that he maybe was stealing things. M. But anyway, um, he actually ended up um, trying to murder one of his babysitters. Uh, uh. And when the police went round to the house, they discovered that it was absolutely full with all sorts of stolen goods from the steelworks. But he would send. He was. My dad called him Malfunction. His name was Malcolm. But he would send him a card from Broadmoor from Christmas every year. So every year this card would turn up. You've

Speaker C: not forgotten your dad then? No,

Speaker B: he hadn't forgotten my dad

Speaker C: every year. Ah.

Speaker B: But it wasn't quite as inspiring as Jack. So tell us about the work you do today then and how you came to do it.

Speaker C: So I, Yeah, I've been in the people development space for. It's coming up to 30 years now. So I started um, way back when I'd graduated. Um, and it was probably my first, my first proper job after. After graduating I found myself in the people development department of a big retailer. And I um, was. I was an administrator at that point. And I didn't see it as a career, to be honest. Like most graduates, I needed the, the money. Right. You know, so it was the job that, that provided that. And one of my tasks was to um, help out the company induction. They used to have loads of people managers start every single month and they'd come to an induction and my job was to stand in front of all of these people and talk about the history of the company. So it was probably again one of my first tastes of speaking to lots of different leaders.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And one time we had the CEO. He was up. I was waiting in the wings. And he was up before me and he was doing a bit of a motivational welcome and he was a great speaker and he said something like, you're, you're all managers and um, somebody will have helped you get to where you are today. Now it's your job to help somebody else. Um, and in that moment, Chris, I was, I was stood in the wings and I remember it vividly and it felt like I just, just uh, a bolt of lightning just hit me like, oh, this is what I'm here for too. It just felt like I was absolutely in the right place and this was the start of something and I just knew that yeah, this was what I wanted to do now. Since then, obviously I've had lots of iterations of, of being in that space, but the, the one common denominator that I saw constantly was seeing people, um, the ripple effect of, of leaders, you know, the, the importance of the, the impact that they're having not just on their team and on the business, but on their relationships and their, their family life as well. And, and again I guess that goes full circle with what I've just described in terms of seeing my dad get that, the, the birthday card and the importance of, of um, the. That ripple effect. But, but uh, supporting them as leaders, you know, so that they can benefit from that ripple effect too. So as leaders they still need to be supported, they still need development, they still need somebody, um, that's got their back. And I just wanted to be that person because I know that once they've got that in place, everything else just becomes that much easier.

Speaker B: Yeah. So a lot of your work today is, is it coaching? Is it? Yeah.

Speaker C: So I do predominantly, I do a lot of coaching. I do a, ah, lot of leadership developments. A group coaching. Do group events as when I work with managing directors, um, who have got caught in the weeds, you know, so they're, they're growing, they've grown their business to a level but they're still leading the business in a way that they did when they first started or with senior leaders who are struggling with the stepping into that next level of their identity. So it might, they might be struggling with self doubt, they might be struggling with feeling overwhelmed or imposter syndrome. And all of that's having a real knock on effect to their work.

Speaker B: M. Yes. Yeah. And this idea of uh, if you've got those, those people below you who need that development but you've gone got a, I guess a leader who can be essentially taking on too much themselves. Yeah. Is that where this, this sort of. This idea around having to step back a bit.

Speaker C: Yeah. So. So over the years I just kept having the same conversation with, with leaders who were saying, um, maybe complaining a little bit about their team and saying, oh, my team asks too much of me. I can't get anything done. I'm craving headspace. I just want time to think. And I'm, um, I'm working weekends or I'm working evenings or my relationships are struggling. My, my, my marriage is, is, is suffering or my relationship with my children are suffering because I'm constantly working and I'm in this. I'm kind of walking this tightrope where I know I need to work, but I also feel as though I'm, I'm missing out on my children growing up and I feel as I'm failing at everything. Um, and then it's for the, for the majority of the time, it's not a case of that they're failing, it's just that they're not. They're leading the business in the way that they did when they first started. They just need to adapt their, their. That just the way that they're working.

Speaker B: Yeah. So this is to get more balance in life and. Absolutely.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And just, Just change. Because, um, again, what I see a lot of the time is our definition of leadership kind of takes over or we rely too heavily on, on patterns or, you know, behaviors or. And it's that old saying, isn't it? What got you here isn't going to get you there. So it's about redefining what you want, redefining leadership and what the, the next level of your business looks like and how you want to lead that. Um, and then adopting that approach rather than just constantly relying on the, the same old things that you've done to get you where you are today.

Speaker B: Yeah. I suppose to become with, with family, for example, it's only so long when your kids are young and uh, want you. I always remember doing a, UM retreat with a board of quite a. Quite a large company. But when. And they included the founder. Ah. And afterwards, after two and a half days, he said to the, the. You know, one of the big reflections I've had from this is that when I, when I set this business up, I worked so hard and didn't have time for my, my kids and family. And now, now I'm older and the business is successful and it's, uh, it's very established. Um, I've got time for them, but they haven't got time for me.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Reminds me of the

Speaker C: Cats in the Cradle. Right? You know that song?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Yeah. That just pops my head. And I've had so many people message me, um, saying I'm putting the kids to bed. I just wanted to let you know that I've actually put the kids to tonight or I'm on holiday without a laptop and nothing's, you know, burning down and I just. Yeah, just can't. Or I'm taking my wife out on a date. And I know it's weird, but I just wanted to message you whilst we've just ordered and I'm so excited. And it's just those, those. Is that the, the. It's that ripple effect that we've, we've talked about. It's. It's the fact that they do have that balance.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, so what, what you mentioned a little bit about beliefs and things like, like that, that hold people back in. Um, you know, what are you finding are the main things that really hold people back? And, uh, they need to be very mindful of and how do they make a shift, really?

Speaker C: I think fear is a big one. Yeah. Fear that everything's gonna, that you're gonna fail, especially if you've got loads of people's mortgages on your hands. Right. And you know that you need to. That. I don't think that ever goes away, regardless of how, how big the business is. Fear that you're not. You're not good enough. Fear that, you know, it's, um, that, that sometimes we're afraid of the actual success, um, that we're not going to be able to sustain it. So I think there's, there's a. Fear does play a huge part. And also, I think there's also the. What our definition of leadership is, because not long ago somebody actually said to me, I've. I, I didn't realize that I, uh, I thought I was helping, but I didn't realize I was actually suffocating my team. And that comes down to the. You. What, what. How do you define leadership? How do you define your role? What do you think it actually means? And sometimes people think it's doing everything, fixing everything, being all things to all people. And it might have been at some point, but there comes a time where you may have a team, you might have people that you can rely on, that you can step back and, and you just need to tweak that, that, that belief around what it, what is it that you're actually here to do? What is your role now then? I think that's A great exercise for people to do is just go back to uh, have, get a blank sheet of paper and write your job description. But in terms of behaviors, what is it that I. How do I actually need to operate at this level now?

Speaker B: M. And do you, when you're doing this, do you, do you take feedback from the teams at all? Do you do 360 degree times?

Speaker C: Sometimes, yeah, sometimes. I mean to be honest, when um, a lot of the time the leader actually knows what the problem is and getting feedback from their team isn't help, you know, overly helpful at that moment. Um, but yeah, sometimes, yeah we do, we do go back and, and chat to everybody and get their feedback and do a full 360.

Speaker B: Remember quite a few years ago doing a speech at um, Leeds Beckett University. A lot of people and I suggest it, uh, I suggested that um, at the end of each week people um, got their team to um, kind of rate their inequality of their relationship on a scale of 1 to 10. And there was somebody quite senior sitting on a front table and I heard her say, I ain't bloody doing that.

Speaker C: Too scary, right? Too

Speaker B: scared.

Speaker C: No, I'm not doing that. Can you imagine? I mean I'm a big fan of 360. I do, I think it's, it's, it's um, there's a place for it. But sometimes I, I also think people need a chance to change, you know, before they get the feedback

Speaker B: because it can actually be quite damaging. I've experienced where people insisted on me doing it. Um, yeah, occasionally that feedback was so harsh.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well people, because people have long memories, right. They'll remember things from way back and, and um, still feel like they want to mention that in their 360. I think sometimes you just need time to change and, and um, adopt a different approach before you get feedback.

Speaker B: Do you think the other thing I did, I was a, an insight for me and I don't know if you had the same experience but with 360 degree feedback. When I looked at the feedback sometimes and I knew because I knew the personality style of each of the people who've given it or I could get a sense of that style from the feedback they gave can. And basically what they were saying is this is how to be more like me.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true.

Speaker B: This is what you need to do. You need to be more visionary and creative. You need to get better with your team. You need to be more, you need to be more analytical and detailed. You need to do more research. You Know you look at it, I know exactly what your profile is

Speaker C: again. And I have to be all things to all people. I just need to like be a chameleon. But we can't do that, can we?

Speaker B: No,

Speaker C: just. Yeah, impossible. But it is funny when you read it, you just think, oh uh, crikey, I'm being pulled in all direction. Although some feedback's great. M. We need some feedback, don't we, in order so that we know what, how to improve and sometimes we just don't know what it is that we need to do.

Speaker B: Yeah. How do you help your people to deal with feedback though? Because that's. It's quite hard for people to often to receive it even though it's the way we learn.

Speaker C: Yeah, it is. Um, well I think this is where your, your exercise that you, you mentioned from your talk at Leeds Beckett actually comes in handy because when you're doing it on a regular basis it does become easier. And I think as a leader we do need to be able to accept feedback. We do need to be able to receive it as well as give it. We also always think that it's our job to give feedback to other people, but it's, it's equally important to be able to learn how to receive it. Yeah. Um, so in. Make it a practice, whether in your team meetings just do a bit of a, you know, how's things going? What, what's, what's. What do I need to stop. Start, continue? You know, that's a great one just to, to an easy thing for, for you to do just in a team meeting or in a one to one. Um. And then it enables other people to practice giving feedback with, in a safe environment that nothing bad is going to happen just because they've given you some feedback. That it's just, you know, a tool for learning and it can be used both ways.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose. What it can be very hard, can't it, for people to give their boss feedback if the relationship isn't very, if it isn't permitted within the relationship or talked about explicitly.

Speaker C: Yeah, totally. Um, and again this comes back down to just making it a very safe place to do that. The more you do it and the, the easier it gets especially if it's received well, you know. And um, it is about practicing thank, thanking somebody for the feedback and, and, and giving them some uh, just following up about how you've actually used it so that they know that it's not exercise. But the more it happens, the safer it becomes. I do think it's It's a two way street, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It's both, both parties learning and if you're prepared to give feedback someone, you've also got to be prepared to receive it.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. It's only fair, right? It's only fair.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Well, I'm really, I'm kind of keen. I mean have you um, uh, when it comes to, of people holding on to things, have you got any, any sort of stories or experiences around, um, when you've seen somebody, you know, massively holding on to um, things they should have allowed others to take off them and be suffering the consequences of you, uh.

Speaker C: Oh yeah, crikey. All the time. So um, trust is a really hard one, isn't it? And, and so often as well we need, I think there's, we also have, have something, what I call hiding place tasks that we do though we're actually contributing that, we're adding value but we don't have to think about it. And we've all got tasks like that. And I think some of these tasks are quite difficult to pass over because when you do, you, you, you've got to then keep focusing on the things that actually really matter. You know, the things that uh, take that you need to focus on. And so often people say to me, well if everybody's doing my work, what do I do? You know, and I think this is a real, it is an identity shift that we're talking about. You know, if I'm not doing that, what do I do? What is my role now? And it's not about always about actually doing the doing but about managing. You know, it's about leading, it's about being strategic, it's about thinking differently, it's about having conversations. There's a great question that um, I ask is if you only worked two hours a week, what would it, what would you do? And you could only work two hours a week. Most people say to me, well actually I'd spend most of my time talking to people. But then the follow up question, as you know what's coming is well, why are you doing that now? And most of the time we're not. And I think this is the case, it's shifting from the doing to the leading, um, and changing our mindset around what our job actually is.

Speaker B: Excellent. We'll talk a bit more about that after the break. We're going to go into commercial break now and we'll be back with you again in just a couple of minutes. I always say to people, uh, with these interviews. It's worth, if you're sitting down and listening somewhere, having a piece of paper or notes open on your phone and just taking from this one or two reflections that actually you can go away and put into practice. Um, so um, that's my recommendation. Um, and um, then you're getting some real benefit from listening today. So we're gonna be back again with you in just a couple of minutes. Do join us after the break.

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Speaker A: You are tuned into the Business Elevation show with your host, Chris Cooper. If you have a question or comment about our show, please direct your emails to chrischrisscooper.co.uk that's chrischrissCooper.co.uk now back to Chris Cooper. Hi,

Speaker B: this is Chris Cooper. I'm talking to Bob, uh, and Nixon and we're having a little chat in the break and I was just saying that um, what Barbara's talking about is um, you know, uh, is business. And I know Barbara works with some, uh, sizable businesses. Actually I think this idea of letting um, go of some things is relevant even if you're just a, you know, single, single person. Um, but uh, it's, it's also got to be a bit careful sometimes not to let go a bit too soon. And I was just explaining in the break that I had a hairdresser, that I go barbers that I can get my hair cut and I've been very kind of happy with them. Um, the owner's been cutting the hair and then recently I went and uh, somebody who I'd seen sweeping the floor a few weeks ago cut my hair and it was pretty terrible. And then I went back again and there was a 17 year old, cut my hair the next time. And he's opened another barber's in another, another town. So he's working between the two. And I have a feeling that he built that business quite quickly and it became successful. I think he's going to really struggle. I think he's let go too soon. So barber just interesting exploring that for a moment because actually talking here about people needing to let go, you know, to maybe do more, do more visionary things, but it can come with risks.

Speaker C: Oh, uh, massively. Yeah. Especially if you're, you're a, a small business like that. I think in, in that example it's, it, it does sound like it's a case of separate stepping away too soon and, and um, it's tempting, right, Especially if you've got a thriving business to think, oh, this is how I scale, this is how I can grow. And I want to, I want to um, open another barbershop. But unless you've got a team there that can support you, and all of this actually relies on having a team that can support you or at least individuals that can support you that you can trust, it's not going to work. M. Because now you're going to go and find a different barbers, aren't you? And these takings are probably going to plummet. So um, in hindsight, what I'd have recommended, and maybe you would have too, Chris, is that it hung around a little bit, trained people up, maybe had somebody a bit more senior in there to take the reins while he was training. And I'm a huge fan of training people up and you know, uh, developing people, having that succession plan in place. So no problem with getting a 17 year old starting to cut hair, uh, but having some guidance there, you know, so a safety net to support them, um, so that you're still getting a good haircut while it's, while it happens,

Speaker B: you're not being, not being scalped.

Speaker C: Lucky. Yeah. No good. So, uh,

Speaker B: so, so whatever. So, uh, what sort of practical suggestions do you have and um, what is the right time to be really looking at this, uh, looking at stepping back, doing, doing less reprioritizing and what are some practical tips and ideas to help people do that?

Speaker C: So I Think the first thing is it's the hardest question of them all, isn't it? Is to decide what you want. What do you want your life to be like? What do you want? How do you want to feel every day? How do you want to feel every week? So if you are feeling out of, of kilter, that something's not quite right, that you haven't seen your kids or you know, your, your partner for ages and you feel as though you're missing out, then that, that's a great starting point. But just to do the exercise that talks about before the break, which is get your job description, you know, write a job description of this is how I want my, my role to be. This is how I need to show up. This is how I need, what my behaviors I need to, to have in place. And this is what I want at home as well. This is how I want to be at home. So it's not about just looking at one area of your life, but looking at all of it and, and deciding what that, uh, what you want that to look like. The next thing I'd always recommend is start to be a bit more discerning. So if your habit is to jump in and say yes to things, you know, to, to fix things when your team m show up and um, to solve, make all the decisions and solve all the problems. And it's tempting to do that because it feels good, right? It feels as though we're actually adding value that we're job as a leader. But just be careful that we're not inadvertently training our team to come to us with the problems and to come to us for, with just, with everything. Um, and if that's the case, we can start to just gently nudge back and use what coaching, you know, some great coaching skills just to nudge back and ask them questions like, you know, what ideas have you got? Or what would you do if I wasn't here? Or you know, um, how would you handle this? Let's discuss it rather than me just solve the problem. So it might feel like it's taking longer in the short term, but it's short term pain for long term gain. Because I think one of the, the problems that I see is this. The phrase that pops into everybody's head is it's quicker if I do it myself, right? So if, catch yourself in the moment if you're thinking that, uh, if you think, oh, uh, I could just rattle this off or send this email or do whatever task it is that you're, you're, you're holding on to, if you're thinking, oh it's just quicker if I do it myself, stop for a second and think, okay, who else in my team could do that? Or is there somebody now that I could. If you're a smaller business, outsource to, if you've got uh, repetitive tasks, maybe you could outsource to somebody, maybe you could hire somebody, you know, for the first time and just start growing that team so that you have got somebody that you can actually palm things up stuff.

Speaker B: So what about, what about the role of AI now which, which is having an impact in many ways and we'll continue probably in an accelerated way continue to do

Speaker C: um,

Speaker B: you know, there's some productivity tools that can help us within AI. Um, but there's also a risk that companies ah, try and rely on less and less people to delegate to.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean AI is here to stay now, right? So we have to get, get used to working with it. We have to get used to looking at how it can benefit us, how it can make us more productive. But again, I also think that we need to do sense, check everything. So not, not just rely on it completely, but do our research, start checking things, treat it as an employee, you know, so if it is, if you are using a particular AI, if you, or maybe you've created uh, an agent, then look at, treat it like an employee to start with. So what would you check? Would you just palm things off for somebody and get, give delegate something to that person? Or would you check them, check everything that they're doing just to make sure that you fully trust what's going out into the world?

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah. Are there any um, sort of tools and things that you found your clients using to do to do this that are particularly helpful? It seems like the landscape changes almost every

Speaker C: couple of weeks. You know, sometimes I think that we rely on like time management tools, but often it's, it's very much looking at your own mindset. I think first once you get that right, because you can give somebody all the time management tools and all the productivity tools that you want, but unless the, the mindset's there to, or you they're going to use it for a week and then just slip back into their old ways of working. So I think it's a mindset shift first to this end to step into um, to that next level and really own it and then start using the time management tools and start using AI and add things to it so that you can actually use them more, more effectively rather than Just trying to use them to bolt on.

Speaker B: So what's, what sort of, um, challenges do you see with people's mindset and, and how quickly can you fix mindset? Because isn't it something you maybe always have to work at?

Speaker C: Yeah, you probably do always have to work changing right wherever. Yeah. And we always just have to keep. Check on our m. Own mindset and see where we are slipping back into old habits. Um, so how quick can you, how, how long is a piece of string? Right? It depends on the person. So some people are. It's really quick. You can, you can do that within, you know, you know, I'd say weeks, months. Uh, other people. It takes a lot longer. It does depend on the person. It depends on how strongly they hold on to it. Um, but in, yeah, in terms of, just to go back to what I mentioned, it is just about being comfortable with defining what that next level looks like for you and making sure that you feel completely safe in that next level. You know, um, going back to, to fears. So looking. Deciding whether what's actually going to make you succeed at that next level rather than cause you to revert back to type

Speaker B: M. When you say next level, um, is this the next level of thinking or next level in terms of job? Yeah,

Speaker C: next level of thinking. So when usually the, the level that somebody's working at at is what I call their next level. So they might not have acclimatized that level yet. You know, they're still working at the level that they did before. Um, whether that's when their business was a little bit smaller or whether that maybe they were in a different role so they've stepped up because their business has grown or they might have been promoted in position, but they've just not acclimatized to working at the right level yet. Um, so that's what I really mean. So what would actually make you comfortable to work at a level at the right level without constantly sinking back and parachuting in to solve problems, to do the tasks that you no longer need to be doing. Um, which then causes everybody to shunt down

Speaker B: m. Do you find that it's, it's particular personality types that get into this pattern? There's a pattern there because, I mean, some people are more visionary and like to spend more time there and some are more detailed and some will say yes to everything, um, if they, if they're given it by somebody more senior and. Yeah. Is it, do you find it's related to personality type?

Speaker C: I personally haven't seen that, to be honest. Um, have you. That would be interesting to see what you think.

Speaker B: I, I think um. I think there are certain people who can get very analytical and detailed about things and maybe Ms. M. The bigger picture.

Speaker C: Um. Yeah, you're always going to find

Speaker B: that. Yeah. And there's probably some people who um, don't go, don't go enough into the, into the detail because they'd like to skim. They skim over things and smooth things over, you know, so actually they, they save themselves some work that way but then might lose that by spending a lot of time chatting or over communicating, you know. So it's kind of. I think it's probably a, A, ah, personal, you know, it's an, it's an individual scenario, isn't it, for each person? I think

Speaker C: completely, yes. I mean everybody. We've all got our baggage, right? So we'll always. We' um, just fall into the habits that the, the personal habits that we've got that we've created for ourselves. So then that doesn't. It can depend on the person, right? It can depend on. It doesn't matter their type, their personality type. I think we can all, we can all bring our own stuff to the table, can't we? Um, but you're right, some people will fall into the details. Some people love the visions. We're always going to get that. But I think we're always going to create our own habits. Habits.

Speaker B: Something I know is important to you. You have this um, this concept of smash your own ceiling. Um, and so how, how do people. I think this is about level shifts. I suspect we've just been talking about. So how, how do people smash their own ceiling?

Speaker C: I think it's about being aware of it. So where, where I see this popping up and you're right is a level shift. Yeah. It's about understanding what your, your, your way of, of I'm going to use the term self sabotages. So what. How do you actually sabotage your own success? How do you block your own success? And for some people it might be getting stuck in the weeds. Yeah, it's. For some people it might get stuck in the detail. For some people it might be being overly visionary. For some people it might. We could just go on and on and there's lots of different ways that we can do that. But, but everybody's got something because our uh, um, uh, subconscious mind just wants to keep us safe. It just wants to keep us in our comfort zone. And so it does that, that by ensuring that we're always, that it's always Going to send us messages that are tailor made for us to bring us back down to our comfort zone every time we kind of nudge up to our uh, to, to our next level. So it's about identifying what it is for us. What, what patterns do we always fall into? So and once we've identified them, because everything starts with self awareness, we can start to do something about it, we can start to sidestep it, we can start to make another choice. So when we spot it happening in real life, we, and, and this is, it's a lot easier said than done, isn't it? Especially when we get used to working a certain way, spot it happening in real life and then we can do something different.

Speaker B: And, and do we need a human being to help us do this work?

Speaker C: Oh, well, I hope so. Yes, categorically, absolutely. I think, I think it, you know what humans just, they, we, we can spot things maybe that AI can't just yet. So we can spot the shifts in body language, we can spot the, the phrases that you know, that you're, you're not saying is the, the things that you're not saying as well as saying. We can, we can notice all of these things, we can see the habits. Um, so I'm gonna say yes, yeah, we do. Um, certainly the conversations that I've had with humans far outweigh the conversations that I'm having with AI just yet. Yeah,

Speaker B: yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Is, is there a role with AI? Um, I actually said to some of my clients recently that um, talking about a, I said please, you know, use AI between our coaching sessions and then bring it to our conversation into our, you know, what you've, what you learn into our conversations and then we'll, yeah, you know, so that's quite a good way to, a good way to utilize it.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think so.

Speaker B: Ah, because also AI is you're going to get an average of everything there as that's out, out there from absolute nonsense and rubbish through to um, you know, really good stuff. Um, and you're going to get an average of that and that may or may not be relevant to you. So it needs, it needs a human brain to work it, work it through.

Speaker C: I agree. And it's a great use of AI, isn't it? Especially in between coaching sessions. Um, and uh, providing it's taken in the right way and that the AI is only as good as what you put into it. So it depends on what the you know, questions they're asking and what, what um, prompts they're using. So I Like the idea of them coming back to you with it so you can untangle that together. Um, so. But what I'd be afraid of. Afraid is not the right word. What I've been nervous about, uh, certainly in, in the, the first instance is that the not. We're not going backwards or we're not, you're not going, going, um, uh, onto a different tangent or down, down the wrong path just because of prompts that aren't particularly helpful.

Speaker B: Yeah, and, and working on an average.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker B: Giving you an average, average answer when actually you might, if you're going to smash your ceiling, you might need, uh, you might need, you know, some ideas and wisdom and thoughts that are going to take you to the next level. Yeah. Might be beyond

Speaker C: maybe.

Speaker B: Maybe

Speaker C: yet. Yeah, I think, Yeah, I think it's coming, isn't it? I think it's coming and that's for us as coaches to be aware of that and to look at how we can use it properly. Um, so I'm not, it's not that I'm dismissing AI, I think it's a fantastic tool but just to be a little bit curious about how to use it properly. Certainly in the work that we're doing.

Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah. I think it's going to be fairly short sighted, uh, uh, to not work with good quality coaches and spend time with as with uh, anybody who's helping as in business who, you know, people who really do understand you, care about you.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Uh, and can help you find the best for you. I think that's really, really important. We mustn't make sure we don't lose the humanity.

Speaker C: And I've been, lots of people have actually talked to me about that, that they do want a human, that they want to, they want to feel the energy of the other person. Even if it's on a screen like the two of us, we can still pick up on, on each other's energy. So I think it's, it's, there's a real place for it. I don't think we've lost it yet.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So if so we, I did, you know, ideally some of this, some of this about people working less then so that they can enjoy life. And, and

Speaker C: I think it's about people working differently, isn't it? So in some situations it will be working less. Um, for some people it'll just be repositioning themselves and repurposing what they're actually focusing on. Um, and giving other people room to grow as well. Because what I often find is when people Step up. Whether it's the business owner steps up, then they create a bit of a vortex and everybody else grows to fill it. So because they've then got room to, to play, they've got room to grow.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um,

Speaker C: and when that happens, the business grows as a result because you've got more, more brains behind it. You know, you've got more momentum. So I think it's about just trusting that stepping back doesn't mean stepping out. It's not about. It's not about leaving, uh, other people to do things. It's. It's not about not understanding what's going on or losing control, which, again, again, is. Is something that people can be quite nervous about, but about changing the way that you work. So you are, you're still working, you're still in control, you still know what, everything's, what's going on, but you're doing it differently.

Speaker B: Yeah. So how do you help yourself to smash your own ceiling?

Speaker C: How do I do that? Yeah, exactly how. Yeah, I've said so. I think again, look out for where I'm, um, I block myself because I'm human. You know, I can do that too. Um, where I, I'm might be able to delegate or use, uh, my team more. Um, and then just remember that I, I really like work, life, balance. So that's very strong for me. So providing I'm doing things to fill my cup and I've got the energy, then I feel as though that I'm able to pass that energy on to other people. So that's really important for me.

Speaker B: Excellent. So what, so what are. If people were to take three steps, for example, to start, sort of start. Really start with this, and then an investigation into themselves tomorrow. What would you advise them to do?

Speaker C: So step number one, look at how you feel right now. If you feel that you're out of kilter, if you feel that something's not quite right and that you want to do something different, then now's the time to start. So that's the. It's just rating where you are right now and how you feel and whether you're getting frustrated with your team, maybe they're coming to you too often, Maybe you're just, just too involved with things. Um, step number two is start is do the exercise where you look at what you want from your business and what you want from your life. So if you had a magic wand and everything remained the same, so business still was the same, your house was still the same. What. How do you want to show up at home? What would you like that to be like? How do you want to show up at work? What would you like that to be like? If you could solve all those problems that are niggling you, what would it be like? And step number three is try and start to be a bit more discerning about what you're saying yes to and what you're jumping in to do. Um, and looking at how you can actually delegate that, pass that over, maybe it's something you can stop doing altogether. Or how can you actually work differently so it's not an automatic yes, I'll do everything.

Speaker B: Yeah. One of the. Something that just came to me. I remember interviewing David White. Um, if you know David, the, uh, poet, Ted speaker. And, um, he's very, very interest. Interesting man. And he talked to me about, you know, in life, 50 of the time it's going to be out of balance because something's going to be wrong. You know, somebody's going to be ill, you know, something's going to be going wrong. Probably with, with work, um, you. You might have. Need repairs on your house, your car, all those sorts of things. So. So people expect life to be, you know, playing in balance, and when it's not, they get unhappy. Is some. Is some of this about actually maybe our mindset to dealing with problems as they come along, seeing them, seeing in a different light in terms of actually, you know, an obstacle to. A natural obstacle to overcome

Speaker C: rather than getting stuck

Speaker B: in the dread of it?

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, there is an element of that. It's. It's a case of, um, not worrying too much about it. Because you're right, life will happen. Life will have. We can't stop that from happening, but it is how you deal with it. Um, and so you've got actually some space to think about it or to deal with it when it does happen, you know, so we're not. We're not looking around and thinking, oh, crikey, I've got no time to take somebody to the doctors or to sort my car out or to, you know, that you've got some wiggle room there and that you trust your team enough.

Speaker B: Yes. That

Speaker C: you can just pass things on without anything, Anything, you know, going wrong. And you can maybe go on holiday that's allowed to. Without anything, uh, burning down.

Speaker B: Do you have a final message you'd like to leave us with?

Speaker C: Um, I. Oh, the message is, uh, I've really enjoyed it, but the message is, I think, um, look at how you want to feel. I think that's the. That's the case, look at how you want to feel. What does the next level of you, the next iteration of you look like and what one thing can you do today to actually start to make that happen?

Speaker B: Fantastic. Barbara, it's an absolute pleasure talking to you today. I

Speaker C: loved it,

Speaker B: really enjoyed it. And if um, you want to find out more information about Barbara, go to barbaranixon.co.uk I'm sure you can find Barbara on LinkedIn and places like that. If you do, let her know where, um, because if she's anything like me, people just say, can I join your LinkedIn? And don't say why you don't bother with those but let them know where you've um, know where you've uh, heard from her. Ah, and on next week's show we have Azeem, ah, Kamisa. And Azeem M is a speaker, he's an author, but he's an advocate for restorative justice. Um, very, very sadly his, um, his young son, uh, was um, when he was just about to go to university, was murdered. Ah and um, he actually now Azeem I think has helped about a million young people uh, understand um, about their kind of behavior etc and he actually the person who murdered his son, he's now employed for a number of years after he came out of jail. Um, so quite an incredible a story. He's a real advocate for this, for restorative justice and uh, helping people through that route. It's an amazing story. So do join us next week. We're going to learn all about that. We're going to meet Azeem. Uh, once again, a big thank you from Barbara. If you've got any questions or comments, feel free to email me@, uh, helloriscooper.co.uk uh, and also we have uh, an ebook, uh, available on the website ChrisCooper, uh.co.uk, it's free. It's called uh, 10 Elevations to Help you thrive and do good. Um, which is helpful in today's world. It's based upon the wisdom of um, some of the guests and the community that I lead called the Elevation Collective, where exceptionally wise folk come together who care about contributing to a better world. So that's available for free. It's on the website. Just access it if you want it. So take care everybody and uh, look forward to speaking to you again next week. And once again huge thank you to my guests today, to Bob and Ixen. You've been great.

Speaker A: We thank you for listening to the Chris Cooper Business Elevation Show. Please join your host, Chris Cooper again next Friday at 8:00am U.S. pacific Time on the Voice America Business Channel. Be more, achieve more.