World Refugee Day : A Turning Point For Malaysia?

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Speaker C: BFM 89.9. This is the Breakfast Grill. I'm Keith Kahm. June 20th marks World Refugee Day, a United nations observance recognizing the millions of people forced to flee conflict, persecution and violence. This year's commemoration comes at a sensitive moment in Malaysia. Recent weeks have seen growing debate over the Rohingya community, with a petition calling for their removal from the country that attracted hundreds of thousands of signatures before being taken down. Joining me this m morning are, uh, Adrian Perera, Executive Director of the North South Initiative. Welcome back to bfm, Adrian.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: And Mei from the Refugee Emergency Fund, as well as Reimagine Education, who is also a refugee herself. Thanks for joining us this morning.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker C: I'll start with you, Adrian, with the bigger question of refugee governance in Malaysia. We are not a Signatory to the 1951 Refugees Refugee Convention, yet for decades, the UNHCR has effectively been managing refugee registration and documentation here. Is that arrangement still fit for purpose?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm going to say something that may either shock Malaysians or make a lot of people feel uncomfortable. So, till today, Malaysia does not have a constitutionally derived law or regulation that protects refugees. What that means is there's no legally binding framework to protect them and their rights. So whatever we have now is basically ad hoc directives that are not legally blinding, number one. And number two has caused a lot of confusion among not just the people, but enforcement agencies. And hence we see the whole range of problems that continue to evolve, including misinformation and disinformation campaigns.

Speaker C: Yet we've been having refugees in this country for decades. I remember, since the Vietnam War.

Speaker B: Right, yeah. Thanks for reminding all of us that we have had a history of very positive humanitarian interventions. We not only send peace missions abroad, but we have welcomed and we have hosted refugees in the past. It's just a bit strange now that this whole series of hate campaigns have started. It looks very artificial and it's most probably manufactured. Me and some friends are trying to trace where is the source because it's only targeted at a particular community.

Speaker C: I want to get into that in a little bit more detail, but for the time being. On June 1, Putrajaya officially rolled out this phase. One of its documents, Pendaf Taran Palarian Framework uses biometric and facial tracking to build a national database. It's going to focus on the thousands of Rohingya and other refugees held in immigration detention centres. What do you make of it?

Speaker B: So while the intentions are good, there's no legally binding framework. That means when something goes wrong, uh, when there's no accountability, there will be no remedy. So, for example, even though the Rohingya refugees are the initial targets to be registered, if there's a mismatch of information or if you don't get to register them or acknowledge them as refugees, they will continue to be punished in our immigration detention centres and there will not be any solutions because there's no legally binding framework.

Speaker C: So with the UN ACR card, and then you've got the government DPP card, which takes precedence. I mean, it might be still too

Speaker B: early, so it's very confusing. But what I understand from the government's instructions is they will slowly take over that process. But at the same time, while that process is still very vague, the UNHCR cards and its system will continue to be a, uh, backup. And one thing I'd like to remind Malaysians, and it's unfortunate that when the Malaysian government says refugees, they only refer to the cardholders. Unfortunately, it leaves out those who just arrived, those who just registered and those who are under consideration. And that itself leaves many community members vulnerable, including women and children.

Speaker C: Me, you've spent much of your life in Malaysia. So we now have the UN cards versus this new government DPP tracker. I wonder how much of this actually matters to refugees themselves. What are the realities that dominate your life?

Speaker A: I think most of the realities kind of revolves around the card. Yes, but at the same time, I think with or without the card, the struggles are pretty much the same. Because you're not getting any benefits from having the card. We're still subjected to Roblox check or raids or Opera C they would call it. Right. These are very, very scary things that's been going on for decades long. I don't think there's much difference. And in terms of medical care right now, what a lot of people try to do is even if you have the online registration form number, you are able to use that as some sort of identification. But because of the convention not being signed and such things, the law doesn't protect necessarily.

Speaker C: Can you give me a sense of just how helpful the UNHCR has been? Also, what's your experience with Malaysian authorities been like?

Speaker A: I think the UNHCR, as far as a stronghold, that's just all they have been. You know, they can provide that safety and need when they can for Example detention senders and stuff, they are able to call in and stuff. But mostly these are also run by community organizations, community members who are going out there to be like, hey, these people are UN card holders. You need to get them out. Because again, there's influx of things to do in the UN itself. And there's only one UN office here in kl, not even in other states.

Speaker C: In the event of a detention, who helps you out the Most? Is it NGOs or. I'm not sure Malaysian authorities would help at all. Right?

Speaker A: No, it's mostly a lot of community members, like people ourselves, like myself or. I have never done it like firsthand, but I have helped friends who get connected to other NGOs or the UN itself. So it kind of goes through a chain of command sort of to get to the UN to be like, hey, okay, we need to take then immediate action. But the first people in field and stuff are the community leaders or the community members helping the people who are already in. And in terms of my experience with authority, even somebody who looks like me, who kind of passes by as a normal local per se, I would be subjected to anything and everything as soon as they see the card itself.

Speaker C: You've spoken about feeling caught between two worlds and not really fully belonging here, but then you can't go home. I wonder what does that do to a person's mental health?

Speaker A: I would like to say it's a magnitude of things, right? The sense of not belonging is a huge thing. But I think Malaysia has been kind in a sense where like I am able to find my own community, I'm able to find my own friends, whether that be local or refugees. But other than that, it's pretty much very alienating. I never really had friends when I was a kid. I cannot even remember half of the things I went through as a kid because it was just maybe that a little bit too traumatizing. You know, there are cptsd that a lot of people talk about nowadays. I myself, like, we go through tons of amount of things that a normal child wouldn't be subjected to from traveling very long distances by ourselves, like my sister and I did for school.

Speaker C: The uncertainty there.

Speaker A: Yeah, the uncertainty is pretty, pretty constant.

Speaker C: Adrian, from what I've been reading, it strikes me that Malaysia has been treating refugee management as a, uh, temporary issue for decades. But then you do have a lot of refugees have spent most of their lives here. They have families, they marry locals or other documented migrants. Has that reality outgrown the policy? I mean, if we don't have anything concrete in place. What can we hope for?

Speaker B: Yeah. So the bizarre part, and this may also upset a lot of parties, is that the policy is not to have a policy. And in my professional opinion, that is deliberately done because the more vague the policy is, there are certain actors who are, uh, benefiting, they are profiteering from this whole, what I would call a perfect storm. So, for example, when there's no right to health care, of course, if you are a Cardholder, you have 50% of subsidized rates, but still, you know, it gives the community a huge disadvantage in terms of payment. But then again, they may have to go to the private sector. So somebody is profiteering when arrests and raids are happening, they are always a, uh, form of corruption and extortion. So again, somebody is profiteering when they are sent to the detention centres. Again, the immigration industrial complex benefits from that. So at every point somebody is benefiting. And it looks like that is one of the reasons why Malaysia till today does not have a, uh, clear, legally binding policy for refugees besides the National Security Council's Directive 23, which is still very vague and has not transformed into SOPs. And one important thing I forgot was the right to work. It's still vague. For me. My professional opinion is bogus because nobody really knows the SOPs that allow them to work and that causes a lot of forced labour and human trafficking among the community.

Speaker C: But the idea for a refugee in Malaysia is so that they can be resettled into a third country. And may. I mean, what makes it more likely for a refugee to be eventually successfully resettled?

Speaker A: There's no guideline. There isn't. It really is a lot of factor. I have had my card since 2013 and 14, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't see any progress bar on the website. You get what I mean?

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Or tracker on my document where it's like, you will be in rsd, which is the resettlement interview next month. No, I've been waiting for 10 years now. I'll wait another 10 years.

Speaker C: Education is not even a factor then in this case.

Speaker A: You can. You yourself as an individual can apply for, for skill path, but that does not necessarily mean your family. That just means you. So there is selective pathways that you can migrate to and stuff. And there's opportunities for young adults right now before the pandemic and after the pandemic, of course, uh, everything slowed down. So, yeah, it will take a while. But again, a big uncertainty.

Speaker C: So at the end of the day, Adrian, I mean, who is responsible to eventually have refugees successfully resettle. Is it the government, the UNHCR NGOs, or just ordinary people? The community?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. So there, uh, are different pathways and there's a certain degree of creativity involved, but end of the day it depends on the country that is welcoming or accepting refugees and their policies change according to the political flavour of the day. So, for example, if during election time one of the political party proposes a, uh, right wing attitude towards migration, that means they will stop or halt their refugee accepting program. And that affects a lot of refugees.

Speaker C: You know what, Adrian, you just hit the nail on the head there. I will be discussing this right after the break because on the Breakfast Grill this morning, I'm talking to Adrian Perera, Executive Director of the North South Initiative, and May, who is from the Refugee Emergency Fund and Reimagined Education. In a while we look at current public sentiment towards refugees and the future. BFM 89.9.

Speaker B: You're listening to the BFM Breakfast Grill with Umobile's Ultra 5G, the next gen network for Malaysia.

Speaker C: BFM 89.9. Welcome back to the Breakfast Grill. I'm Keith Kahm. On the show this morning, recognizing June 20 as World Refugee Day are Adrian Pereira, Executive Director of the North South Initiative, and May from the Refugee Emergency Fund and Reimagine Education. Adrian, let's look at the current mood of the country and the conversations surrounding refugees, because we see this recent petition calling for the removal of Rohingya refugees had attracted hundreds of thousands of signatures before it was taken down. How are, uh, refugee advocates viewing this?

Speaker B: So the root cause is definitely the vague policies and the response. Because without a, uh, legally binding framework, it's impossible for the government and other service providers to operate at an optimal level to serve refugees. So of course, when the public, who are already facing so many challenges, observe this, they are triggered by a whole lot of misinformation and disinformation. And for me and my team and a few other NGOs, it looks like it's a deliberately very well planned and well financed finance campaign. And hence we would like to ask all Malaysians to take it easy, don't fall into the trap. It will take a bit of time for us to trace who is the mastermind behind this. It could be locally, it could be someone from abroad.

Speaker C: Adrian, you said earlier that it was manufactured, but what evidence do you have that it could be manufactured?

Speaker B: So one hint is that it's only targeting one particular community, particular ethnic group, and the others don't seem to come under the radar number two, we have seen trends. Whenever there is a global event or there is a political turmoil in any country, we see the hate speech on social media, very artificially done. So you can see bots being used, paid influencers. Suddenly people who are involved in fashion are, uh, using this platform to help make the news go viral. And sadly, we all know that there's, uh, elections coming on. Migration and refugee matters are always the perfect distraction for citizens.

Speaker C: It's interesting that you mentioned that this has to do with politics and upcoming elections, because we do have two state elections coming, maybe even a snap GE16 and around the world we have seen migration become a, uh, potent electoral issue. Do you think refugee issues can become a politically hot topic in Malaysia? As hot as what we see in Europe or the US Definitely.

Speaker B: Every election we see in the manifestos some kind of response from politicians related to labour, migration and also refugee management. But what's important, we don't objectify the. We let the communities also respond. But of course there's a safety risk and it needs to be managed. Even when Indonesia was having its elections, the Rohingya refugee matters also became quite explosive and it was vitalized and people were physically assaulting the community. So in Malaysia, we see the same trend.

Speaker C: Now, what do you make of these sentiments that have come out recently? Mei, you've lived here much of your life as a refugee. Does this feel like something new? Or have these attitudes always existed beneath the surface? Or as Adrian said, something that comes up every time there's an election?

Speaker A: I think it's always been beneath the surface. Let's all be honest, like, we are very good at masking who we really are.

Speaker C: Is that what you have to do to get around town to pretend that you are, you know. Of course, of course class is Malaysian.

Speaker A: I mean, like, a lot of us speak Malay. I speak Malay, a lot of my peers speak Malay. We speak it because we want to get by and we want to order

Speaker C: food out of survival.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's as simple as that. But I think a lot of people subject us to very unjust interrogations. I can go into a grab, uh, alone and have a willy nilly conversation, but then once they see my full name, they are going to ask me a couple of questions. And these are very innocent, curious questions. But a situation like that where I'm a passenger and they're the driver, it could be if it goes into a hostile conversation, which it had, I am vulnerable as customer, you know, to the man who is now driving in front or a conversation with somebody passing by, if it's not in a community event or something, it can escalate. But. So I understand it's people's innocent curiosity, but I also can't help but know that once they find out who you are, and they will think some sort of way of you. It's just the conversation is not in your control anymore. Now they want to know what they want to know and know if it's. It's right or wrong.

Speaker C: Have you felt unsafe anytime?

Speaker A: Of course. Countless of times in grabs, in trains, even, you know, just maybe walking around here and there at night, I can maybe get away with my looks, but I'm a woman still. That still causes a factor into my safety.

Speaker C: When people talk about the Rohingya community today, because that's where all the vitriol has been directed, the phrase we hear increasingly often is that they have have overstayed their welcome. Is that the same thing that you hear amongst refugee communities?

Speaker A: Um, we knew we were never welcome, let's just put it that way. But we have no other choice. It's either here, Thailand, Bangladesh, or other places. And which, if we go to these camps, if we go to these places, they are also very packed, very overcrowded already. I don't think people understand the lack of choice, I guess. And I think the increasing of hate recently, especially against Rohingya, is absolutely, absolutely diabolical. Because they are calling people Type R. We are very comfortable recording people. Um, we're very comfortable chasing kids around. And, you know, a lot of these things, which, if it was subjected to you, you would not be okay with recording a bunch of kids in the pool and calling them Type R is the exact thing that you wouldn't want your children to go through.

Speaker C: It's deplorable.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So why are you now projecting the same thing to other people, Adrian?

Speaker C: I mean, it doesn't seem like this issue is ever going to be resolved because if it is an election issue, then whatever government comes in place of whatever government it replaces, it's just going to continue. What sort of solution do you see to this?

Speaker B: So from a human rights framework, it's naturally the duty bearer's job to ensure that there's a legally binding framework born from our constitution and comes with the SOPs to protect everyone. That, till today, is not happening. So what can happen is that the refugee community empower themselves and do programs together with the locals to help explain what are the cultural differences, what are, uh, the ways of living together, working together, and to dispel all the misinformation and disinformation that's being churned out at a massive level. So while waiting for the government to one day grow a, uh, conscious, it's important that together we work fast to make sure that people understand what's going on and you know, to be fair and to, you know, again, make people feel uncomfortable, which is my job. Malaysia has not answered our own national question of unity and diversity. I mean that's a fact.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So what more when we see someone from outside the country doing slightly better or we assume that they are, you know, taking resources so that suspicion among the lower income communities and even among the upper income communities is there. And you know, it's the government's job to make sure that they have an information campaign to explain to people, refugees are not the ones stealing your jobs.

Speaker C: So that one proposal that frequently comes up is allowing refugees to work legally. Is that something that Malaysia should seriously consider? And what is the way forward if they've been discussing it for umpteen years?

Speaker B: So, uh, I personally remember, uh, having this conversation with YB Kulap when he was the Minister Human Resources in 2018. Every administration keeps repeating that, you know, they are doing studies and in fact there was experiments before with the right to work and unfortunately both failed because it was poorly planned. But they tried to put the blame on the communities and say that, oh, they were not ready or they're not comfortable. Of course, of course the right to work should be by choice. You can't tell anyone that, oh, you go and sit in the 3D sector, uh, people have the right to choose. So back again, what does the constitution say? Everybody is equal in front of the law. Then from there, what laws should we have to protect refugees explicitly? That doesn't exist now and hence all following rights and mechanisms will not be there. And this has caused hundreds of thousands of migrants and refugees to be detained unjustly. My plea to those in the legal fraternity, whether you are lawyers, the bar council, judges, former judges, help use your legal knowledge to ensure that the Madani government or future administrations have that legally binding framework. For now, it looks like a competency issue, but hopefully we can come up with very clear black and white laws.

Speaker C: Mei, from the perspective of refugees themselves, what is the one change that you think could be make the biggest difference in your life?

Speaker A: One change? There isn't just one change. I think a lot of changes come hand in hand. For example, what Mr. Adrian was saying about work. Work comes with education. Education comes with basic food and shelter and needs So I don't think it's just one thing. I think it's the basics of a human being that we all need for it to be changed. Because Malaysia does not treat the refugee situation with dignity and respect, which is why we have colluded into whatever the situation is now. I unfortunately cann. The answer is just one thing, Keith. I think it's more than one thing.

Speaker C: Final word to you. You've spent much of your life in Malaysia, despite all the uncertainty that we've discussed. What actually keeps you hopeful and what are you hoping for personally?

Speaker A: Well, in the work we do with Raf and Redd both, I think I work a lot with my local friends. I work a lot with refugee friends as well. There would be a ceiling without our local friend as well helping us in these NGOs. So I think today, my hope especially is to any youth, kids, students who are listening to know that there is a better day, there is hope, and there are always people working out there for you for the better future. So if you're listening, don't give up, don't let everything that is going on put you down. Because I've been there 10 years ago, I'm still there 10 years now. And for myself, it's a very selfish reason why I'm doing NGO work. It's for me that to make sure that the future generation has a better future.

Speaker C: May and Adrian, thank you very much for this conversation.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you. Kit.

Speaker C: On the Breakfast Grill this morning were Adrian Perera, Executive Director of the North South Initiative, and May from the Refugee Emergency Fund and Reimagined Education. I'm Keith Kham for BFM 89.9, the business station that was the BFM Breakfast

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