E072: GTM Strategy & Storytelling - Why Stories Matter

Speaker A: Hello, welcome to the big Strategy Podcast. I'm your host and fellow strategist, Jeff Eyett. This is your go to spot for real talk with the masterminds of business strategy. It's about sharing stories, insights, and those little nuggets of wisdom to help you unlock big growth. Let's turn the key and spring into action. So, Jenny, we've worked together. Well, first we were colleagues, classmates at Haas, and now we, we teach together at, at Haas, at work. And you were generous enough to guide me over to the Fung Institute. So we've trod parallel paths and it was only time that you joined us and shared some of what you know with the rest of, uh, our audience. So thank you, Jenny Kalashi, for joining us.

Speaker B: So happy to be here. Nice to see you, Jeff.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, it always starts with why. And so start us out. Why, Jenny? Why?

Speaker B: Why, Jenny? Well, let's go back 4 or 5 billion years ago now. Well, we'll talk about storytelling today. Why should we care about stories? And actually we could go back kind of in evolutionary history because stories are so often the way that information has been passed down. If you think about it, you know, we, before the invention of writing, you know, how did knowledge get disseminated? Where could you find the good berries? Or watch out for the saber tooth tiger, whatever that is, right? It's going to be stories. Because stories are what makes things memorable. They engage us. And actually our brains are just really hardwired to really enjoy stories that have lots of, not just the facts and the figures, but the emotions and the feelings too.

Speaker A: So that you said a key point is you, you famously say, you know, stories are data with soul and the data is good Barry, bad Barry. Uh, you know, but there's a soul. There's so many, um, throughout history, right? So many societies have crafted stories, narratives around that data that you, you, as you said, it becomes hardwired in us. Why do stories hardwire things for us?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's, they're really memorable. And actually there's a really interesting neuroscience behind this which I love, who is a, ah, scientist and I believe he's down at Claremont, um, school and he has done some research on non invasively, thankfully tracking oxytocin in your bloodstream. And so if you remember what oxytocin is from your biology class, it's not OxyContin.

Speaker A: No, no, no. Different oxy.

Speaker B: No, not different kind. It's the hormone that is released in your bloodstream when you have a really good interpersonal feeling with somebody. So when you are in love, in childbirth, like a bonding hormone, Basically, it's in all of us. It's not a gendered hormone. And he has been able to measure, literally, that the oxytocin increases in your bloodstream when you hear a story that has emotions in it compared to a story that doesn't have emotions in it. So literally, you feel better with a good story. And so those are the stories that we want to craft as leaders, as innovators. We want to capture our audience's attention. We do not want to bore them. We want them to really pay attention to us, and we want to have them move to something, right? Move to action, move to a new level of awareness, a new level of care about whatever we care about. So stories, I think, are just critical, really, for all of us.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And, um, I always remember. I remember. I actually remember fewer people that teach me facts than people I remember who have emotionally inspired me, um, even if I don't remember their story. And I think that's probably that hormonal, uh, kick that you talked about. But when we talk about, as David Reamer, our colleague at Berkeley, says, you know, in order to tell a good story, you must have a good story. And so, you know, with that, how do we go about finding good stories? Does it just mean, like, I've got to, you know, go do crazy things to get all these stories? Or can we craft narratives out of, you know, the mundane?

Speaker B: Absolutely. You know, it's interesting. I've hear a lot of stories. I teach storytelling across a lot of different domains. And a lot of the time, it's. The leadership story is actually just a regular moment in your life at, uh, what. What I find makes the really great stories are the stories where there has been. Have to have something that has happened actually. Right. You can't have, you know, we're not going to remember Little Red Riding Hood if she doesn't meet the wolf. She just carries her, you know, basket of cookies to grandmother's house, and she's fine. There's no story there. So there has to be some moment of change or challenge. Something is transformed, and then it's those details that bring it to life. The Little Red Riding Hood, you know, when we have the specific, um, you know, going back to the berries right in the bush, we're going to remember, if somebody tells us about the most juicy red blackberries that were just like, you could just feel it in your mouth when you ate them, and it was so delicious. Right. Like, those sensory details are going to be a lot More memorable. But than just red berries good, you know, blueberries bad, or actually probably vice versa. Don't eat the red berries, eat the blueberries.

Speaker A: But yeah, and that's what I always look, um, for in a good story is when is the earthquake, when is that seismic shift that you can't go back on? So right when Snow White bites the apple, that's an irreversible shift. And you know, that whatever I had up until that point is now, is now going to be flipped. But uh, your audience wants that, right? I mean, they listen to you as a storyteller because they want that emotional journey. Is that right?

Speaker B: Exactly. You know, and this is again true if you are a leader.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Right. Like a leader can talk about, you know, come on team, we can do this. We've been through hard times before, we're going to do it again this time, like that's fine. But I would much rather hear about a time when that particular leader actually specifically faced a challenge and overcame it. And what did they actually do? And sometimes it's actually even more powerful when it's the story from their personal life, so not their private life. So, you know, we're not asking you to air your dirty laundry here, but to share something that has come from more than just, you know, the story, frankly, that a lot of people post on LinkedIn that says the team had to come together under a tight deadline and, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I want to hear about, um, you know, a story that I've told a lot is, you know, it was a beautiful full moonlit night and I'm out running and I feel like I'm flying until I'm actually flying and I fall and I land on my face. You may remember this because this was, I think we knew each other back then. It was about 10 years ago. Um, and I totally injure myself and I have to decide, am I going to keep training to run this half marathon that is the reason I'm out running at night in the first place? Or do I just give up because I was honestly one of those kids that was last picked for every sporting event ever? And so, you know, this is probably a sign just. Enough, Jenny, don't. You're not a runner. Why are you even bothering? Or I could decide that I'm not going to give up and I'm going to actually keep training once I'm healed. And then, believe it or not, I finished that finish line of the 13 mile half marathon on Ocean beach with a best Time ever.

Speaker A: Congratulations.

Speaker B: So now you sense of what kind of leader I might be because you know a little bit about where I came from, you know, what challenges overcome, and you've seen that, like, even when things are hard, I don't give up. Hopefully that would make you want to kind of work with somebody like me. You know, maybe you even have a similar story that now relates to you. So those kinds of stories and details help bring it to life. So when you're maybe pitching your new product or a, uh, startup, you have an idea like that, that you want to get people, you know to invest, to come along with you to join your team, whatever that is bringing in the moment, the detail, that challenge moment. Right. The falling on your face, literally of the night, um, bring that into the room. So maybe it could be you've done an interview with a potential customer and you hear about their pain point, and you're able to describe that in real life, like, I was there. Detail. Right. That's where, as interviewers, we capture those verbatim quotes. Right. We want to really bring in the voice of the customer. Literally. What did they say to you? How did they feel? Where were they when that happened? Those are the moments that are going to come to life and they'll be memorable for your audience.

Speaker A: Yeah, that, uh, that's interesting. And I, I totally agree. A great story always sparks a. Uh, yes. And. And that. Yes. And is a, an. A story of probably similar emotional. Emotional depth. I'm not going to respond. Yeah. You know, I, I fell once too. Like, no, I'm going to. Oh, I tried that half marathon. Oh. And I didn't make it. Or I made it too. And, and, and you build that, uh, camaraderie and that closeness through this vulnerability. And that's really what storytelling does, is storytelling peels back, in my opinion, peels back that layer of the onion and allows you to be a little more vulnerable to others. But that's how we build connections.

Speaker B: Exactly. And you want to connect with your audience. Right. I mean, that's really what it comes down about, is that, you know, I have to think about what is my audience going to care about? What do they know? What might they not know? What are they going to be interested in? How familiar are they with what I'm going to bring them? And I'm going to have to tune that message that I have about whether it's myself as a leader or the product again, the startup, whatever that is, I'm going to have to tune that to that. But that means I'M going to have to do some research not only on myself and what is my story, but how is this story going to be relevant to the people that I'm talking to? Because there certainly are times when we talk to people where they have to be there. You know, like it's a compliance training. They're going to have to sit through it regardless of whether you're any interesting or not. But you know, if you are trying to pitch a new idea, um, they could get up and walk away if you're not very interesting. So you better find a way to make that story something that they don't want to stop listening to. So you're gonna have to know your audience.

Speaker A: At the Berkeley Innovation Group, we are a strategy consultancy and AI advisory firm focused on mid market companies looking to unlock big growth. In contrast to management consultants, typical top down, hypothesis driven approach approach, BIG uses a curiosity inspired bottom up approach. Leveraging customer insights to drive strategy co creation. Learn more about our approach by downloading our ebook@biginnovates.com ebook now back to the show. What brings me to a challenge that I always get is people who think they need to change their story because it's a professional setting. Uh, I can't, I can't be vulnerable there. I'm, I'm presenting the, the quarterly financials or this is a business pitch and uh, you know they're going to buy because we're saving them money or something like that. So how do you, and, and for the audience benefit, you know Jenny and I go way back and one of the classes she teaches at Haas is leadership communications and many offshoots of that and also has a professional uh, practice in that, which, which she'll share. But the point being is this, you live and breathe this and you've you know, taught I won't say how many years of mba, uh, this, these skills. So give us uh, like what's the hack, what's the playbook? How do we balance getting the message across but making it memorable with personal details but still remain, you know, authentic professional?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. There's you know, this is really about knowing your audience right? What is going to be relatable to them, what is going to inspire them and motivate them. And yeah, you know there's probably a place to be vulnerable and ah, there's probably some places where honestly you know, you're probably hopefully not going to break down in tears on the quarterly earnings call with your investors. You know like that might not be the place to have that level of Emotion. But there are definitely ways to appeal to both the heart and the mind, we would say. So you want to find ways to bring in not just the data, but what should your audience feel about the data? So if you are, for example, presenting quarterly financials, should we be excited? Should we be concerned? Should we invest more? Should we retrench, you know, like, what's at stake here? And if it's just, here's the data and I'll let you decide for yourself, you're probably not doing a very good job. No, because as a speaker, you need to have a perspective. Otherwise, why should I listen to you? You know, uh, if it could be given by anybody, honestly, then just make it an email and save my time.

Speaker A: Thank you. Those are the next words out of my mouth.

Speaker B: Yeah. I want the story, I want the presentation to be so uniquely crafted that it only can be delivered by you yourself. So. So if that means bringing in something that really matters to you, if it is a personal story, if it is, you know, some of your genuine feelings about whatever this is, you're going to need to do that in a way that does feel true to yourself and that is resonant with what your audience is expecting and frankly, is delivered in such a way that your audience is going to believe you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So when I think about how do we build trust, which is another topic I'm super passionate about, I think about it not just being. Being my credibility. Do I have the experience and the expertise, you know, do I know my stuff? And, um, am I deliberate? But also, am I delivering it in a reliable way such that I'm credible in how I deliver it? I mean, I use this, uh, honestly, as kind of a throwaway example, but I actually saw it earlier this year. I was in a boardroom with a senior leadership team, and the new CEO is, gets up to welcome the senior leadership team, right? And he literally says, no joke. Hello, everybody. I'm so happy to be here as your new CEO. I understand that the numbers this quarter have been the best sales ever. It makes me really happy and proud to have joined this amazing company. And I was like, you know, it's not my job to give feedback to the new CEO in this moment, but I'm like, wake up, my friend. You know, do you really care about this job? Do you care about this company? Do you care about the sales? I mean, it sounds like they've worked really hard, and you're going to reap the benefits of it because you're the new CEO with them. Um, do you know, doing this great job right now and I'm not feeling it. So this is not a credible message in the way you're delivering it. So I'm sure your script is great, whatever this is that you've got written up that you're sharing with the team. Amazing, right? Words, but not meaningful delivery because there's no heart in it, there's no feeling it. Yeah, that's not, that's not a trustworthy message to me.

Speaker A: So it's interesting. I'm um, recapping um, what we've said. I mean you've got to have, you have to have a story to tell a story. It's okay to peel back that external layer and knowing your audience, but overlay a personal connection that not only you putting yourself into the story, but gives your audience a way to also connect with that story. And now the third layer you've laid out is this idea of trust. Trust beyond credibility. And there's yes, you can totally bomb on the vocal presentation of your story as you shared, but you can also lose trust through your presence and you can gain trust through your presence and so forth. So, uh, what advice do you give around the non verbal presence, um, in this context of building trust and helping people connect with the message?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, there's some really good research out here as well. Um, Mehrabian really founded uh, this a couple of decades ago, I think, or maybe even longer than that. Um, that the impact of your message, really only a very small percentage of that comes from the word choice. Something like eight or the next chunk of that is how you use your voice. You know, your tone, your pace, if you're monotone. Right. Very boring. Um, but the significant majority, like 60 plus percent of your impact comes from non verbals. And so that's why it can be really challenging if you are in an online environment a lot of the time and maybe people's cameras aren't on or there's a glitch or, you know, you're slacking with your boss or whatever it is and we're missing so much information and that really is your presence. And so it's not just like the non verbal. How I choose to communicate with my gestures, my facial expression. It's also my energy, honestly. Yeah, and maybe that sounds a little woo for California here, but it is like everybody's got their own unique style. So we're definitely not saying you need to like put on a show, you know, whatever. I am somebody who gestures quiet quite a bit. I have a lot of nonverbal expression going on. Um, you don't have to do that if that doesn't feel natural to you. But you should think about what are the ways that I can amplify the impact. And that is going to come through nonverbal expression. So it does also mean that sort of like internal being present as well. So before I join this call with you, Jeff, I made sure to hit do not disturb on my computer because I do not want to be distracted by a slack vacation coming in. You know, this is something that's important. If I'm going to be in an ah, important high stakes meeting, I'm going to be camera on. I'm going to be looking literally at my camera, you know, because that's what appears to be eye contact with your audience. I know it's challenging. I believe you can do it. I'm also going to be thinking about how do I set up my background and the amount of space that I take up in the literal frames. I mean, these are like simple hacks. I know that. I feel like maybe we should have all Learned back in 2020, 2021. But join calls where you can't see the person because there's no light on their face, or we're, uh, so far away from the camera because they're just in the back of a big conference room and it's like, can you hear me? I feel like I have to yell at you.

Speaker A: Hello. Hello.

Speaker B: Exactly. So these are all factors that actually really do make a difference because what you really want to do at the end of the day, you want to align the intentions that I have with the impact that I'm having. So you need to make sure that, you know, how do I want my audience to feel, what do I want them to think, what do I want them to do with my message? And then what is the best way for me to communicate that and make sure that that actually lines up. So it could also be what sort of, you know, visual aids do I need in this presentation? Do I need slides? If I'm using slides, are they amplifying my message or distracting from my message? You know, people who put, you know, when they say death by PowerPoint, we know what that looks like. That's too many words on a screen. That is bad graphics, distracting stock imagery, you know, bullets all over the place, charts that don't make sense. We know about that, um, but we still see it, which is the bummer. And when we're in a room together for like, I'm actually presenting real life in a space with you, sometimes people are, like, talking to the screen.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They're talking to the slides. They're not talking to their audience. You know, your audience is the most important thing in the room. Your slides are like your wingman. They should be backing you up, not be taking over for you.

Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And it's PowerPoint is its own language, and I think we need to treated as such. And as you said, it's there to support us, not distract us. Um, which is often the case, unfortunately.

Speaker B: Truly. And I see a lot of people pitching. Right. Because this is what, you know, a lot of people bring slides to show

Speaker A: this all the time in class.

Speaker B: Their product. Here's our, you know, here's my great idea. I really want to, you know, develop this further. Um, and then they, you know, basically write out what they're going to say on the slide. And when you write it out, we read faster than we can listen to you speak. And so your audience just starts reading that and then they're just totally tuning you out and they've done reading it before you've even finished. And so they're like, why am I paying attention to you? So that's no fun. What my suggestion is, is like, uh, a great image, if you can bring it to life in some visual way. Literally an image speaks a thousand words. Right. But also, maybe that's the moment to actually hit that B button, that, the blackout button on your keyboard, uh, or on your clicker, uh, because that'll turn off the camera there for a minute, the presenter for a minute. And so now we're just watching you. You're no longer slides, you're now the main focus. It's as though a spotlight has come on you. So that's a great way to use that moment to tell a story, to really bring in some feelings. And then you can go back to some of the data about, you know, your amazing profitability charts that you've drawn up and how much investors are going to make from your product or whatever it is. Right. But really think of them as your backup and you as the main star.

Speaker A: That's a great point. Um, I hadn't thought of it in such clear terms. And the B button is an awesome hack in terms of how to, uh, get ourselves some space to share that message.

Speaker B: And it also helps you slow down, because that's the other thing. Right. Like, I know that when I get excited, I talk very fast. And so I know that if I need to really connect my audience and I want them to really hear that. This moment in my story, in my presentation, I, uh, might actually bring in some more pausing, some more breath, or maybe even if I'm not sure what's going to happen next, I just take a breath, it'll come to me. My audience doesn't even know. The audience is just like, wow, there is so much gravitas in this moment. I'm really listening now. What's going to come next? Those are the power of the pause.

Speaker A: Uh, um, it might have been Sherlock Holmes, but it was something was. You know, the average person uses a pipe to smoke, but the wise person uses the pipe or time to think,

Speaker B: oh, my God, I love it.

Speaker A: And I mean, whether it's true or not, it's just a perfect visual. And I always remember it. It's just. And in that breath I just took, didn't you just reinforce in your own mind how smart your question was?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: So one thing to zoom in on, because we hear a lot of pitches in class, but also pitches in, in, uh, business. And whether we're coaching someone or giving them ourselves. And one thing that people always forget, and I know you and I both coach this, is that understand that at that moment, you are the expert in what you're presenting. You are the expert. You spend more time on this, you know more about this, you're smarter than the people in the room on this subject. And a. I think we repeat that to give them confidence that they belong and to have to own that presence. But on the other hand, it's also a risk because you can go talk too fast, talk too deep, bring too much, uh, of the, you know, your heart on your sleeve to the conversation. So how do you balance that? Knowing that I'm the expert, but still bringing the others along for the ride.

Speaker B: So great, you know, you have the right to be here. Yeah, Right. You've been asked to share this for some reason, and trusting that, and trusting that, like, yes, you have the right to share whatever this messages that you have crafted and created here. And again, coming back to some degree to knowing your audience, right? Like, is this an audience that is going to want to really get into the technical weeds with you? Cool. Is this an audience of executives who are not engineers and you are an engineer and you're trying to explain your solution? They're probably not going to want to get into the details there on that. They're going to want to know what decision do we need to make right now? Where is the. What is the potential impact of this? What's the risk? What's the upside. Stick with that. I sometimes think about, you know, the, uh, what is this? A 30,000 foot message, a 10,000 foot message? Or are we really literally down on the ground? And often you need less than you think. So we talk about being deep and brief. If you are deep and brief, then you are getting to the heart of what matters here. Matters to your audience, matters to you, that you believe in, you have a lot of conviction about. And brief. Because if your audience has questions, they will ask. And much better to give them some space to talk about what is important to them than to overwhelm them with, you know, this flood of detail that they did not ask for, they do not want, and they do not understand. Because you want your audience to know that you actually trust them and think that they are smart, intelligent people as well. This is when I. To bring it back to storytelling here for a moment, please. When we're talking about stories and stories that have a good, clear beginning, middle and end. I know that sounds like rocket science. It's very hard to do well though, right? We start with something to capture their attention. There's a challenge, you know, a dragon, we fight in the middle, and then a message that we want to land at the end. And what I like to do is when I'm thinking about landing this message, I do want to be clear about what the takeaway is for my audience, but I don't want to beat them over the head with it too much, you know, like, I don't want it to be too on the nose. That's why we laugh at, you know, soap operas, because they, they tell us what we're supposed to feel, right? They make you. Oh. And that's where, you know, they, they go too much into that. But if I am really helping my audience, like trusting my audience and respecting them, I might end a story with a bit of a question. Something provocative, something that makes them feel like, ooh, I kind of have an interesting thought about that that maybe I want to share. Now back with the presenter. That's going to make that more of a dialogue and a conversation and also help you really reinforce and clarify. If they ask a question, you can get into what you think the takeaway is, but you might also really learn something from your audience, which is going to make, again, whatever reason you're giving this story or giving this presentation that much more impactful because now you're in it together.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a, uh, great point. And I didn't learn that till I was teaching. Was that the Goal is not for me to be. Right. The goal is for the audience to come on the same journey, to follow the path that you've not perfectly, but you've at least created some path through the bush and they can follow you, um, on that journey of their own. And, you know, it's okay if it's not a clear path because that's what builds that shared experience.

Speaker B: We're doing it together. Right. Like, almost everything is truly collaborative.

Speaker A: Collaborative, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, people really don't want to. Like I said, I'm say, like, people don't want to work with a superhero or a robot. You know, like superheroes have their power because of magic which doesn't exist. Right. Like, so nobody is a superhero. Like, even the most accomplished person, you know, has things that they've made mistakes on, they've done things wrong, things have gone sideways, you know, so to pretend that that isn't true, that you haven't had things happen that have been mistakes, just isn't real. Again, it comes back to, I don't really trust that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you're not a superhero. Like, nobody is. You're also not a robot.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because again, nothing is just ones and zeros. There's always some flex in the system.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And you're again, human being. So, like, that's who people want to work with, that's who they want to follow, that's who they want to collaborate with.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: We don't want people to have it perfect.

Speaker A: And I think that is the perfect note to wrap on. So, Jenny, if there has been a conversation that's flown by, it's this. Um, and I'm so grateful for you taking the time to share many years of wisdom and experience, uh, with the audience in terms of know, having a why about that story, showing that vulnerability, being confident and overlaying your own personal experience, um, and then using credibility to drive trust. And then these smaller things of what are the non verbals, how are we aligning our actions with our intentions? And just the small things like talking to the audience and being empathic about bringing them along. Um, all fascinating stuff. So thank you very much. And, and uh, tell us. So tell us just a little bit more about where folks can keep an eye on you or the things that you do professionally, you know, besides teaching, if what you've talked about resonates.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks so much. Um, the work I do, aside from being in the classroom with Jeff and the other fabulous folks at the House School of Business at UC Berkeley is I work for the Berkeley Executive Coaching Institute, where I'm the faculty director for our Executive Coaching certification and Leadership Intensive, among other projects. So if you are interested in finding out ways that you can really leverage your knowledge, your skills, your emotional intelligence to make change on your teams and in the world, come find me@berkeleyeci.com and

Speaker A: I can't recommend it enough. Um, I actually took one of the workshops after I graduated, only because it's just, it's so important as a leader to have these skills that Jenny teaches in your toolbox. So, um, and if you're a prospective or you're a current student at Haas, um, be sure to go beyond Leadership Communications and into, um, Trust Based Leadership and some of the other classes that Jenny teaches. Well, Jenny, I want to say thank you again very much for joining us.

Speaker B: I appreciate it. Have a great day.