HOW THIS ONE CHANGE MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE

Brian Burns: Hey, I hope you're going to enjoy this one today. Got a great guest, uh, and a great situation, uh, somebody who was electrician and then got into sales, but has that drive, that competitiveness, that um, love of a challenge. And that seems to come up a lot with great salespeople. There has to be a why, a motive, a mission, a purpose behind being in sales, uh, more than just the material stuff, uh, because that is kind of temporary. It, uh, doesn't happen every day. It, uh, is ephemeral. It comes and it goes. But the challenge, being told that you can't do something and then you prove people wrong. Whatever it is, we all need to find what it is for us to tap into it because we are emotional creatures and we have to leverage that. I also noticed, uh, a superpower of the guest today, and I'll call it out at the end of the interview. And I also got a surprise for you at the very end of the show today and I hope you enjoy that. Hey Simon, thanks for joining us today. As a way of getting started, give us a little background on yourself.

Simon: Hi Brian. Thanks for having me on. It's a real honor. I've been following your videos for some time now, so it's really cool to be on. So, yeah, basically, um, I'm a Welsh guy, uh, from a small town in North Wales, moved to Sweden 11 years ago and uh, fell into sales. Can one say, uh, you'll have to excuse me with my English, even though I'm a native speaker, I, uh, sometimes stumble with words because I think in Swedish a lot these days. So I sometimes have to say the Swedish word out lo to remember the English word.

Brian Burns: Have you started dreaming in Swedish? I think that's the turning point.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a mixed bag. Um, so some days you're thinking in the other language but you haven't to speak English. And then the other days you're thinking in English and having to speak Swedish. So it's, you know, it's a day by day thing. It, uh, varies.

Brian Burns: And what motivated you to get into sales? Was there nothing else going on? The rugby didn't work out or.

Simon: It was, uh, it was what? In Swedish we call it a banana skull, which means a banana skin. So it was just by pure chance that I glared into sales. So, um, I was an electrician. My background was an electrician, project management. So it was all to do with, you know, technical and installation. And I moved to Sweden 11 years ago. And that was literally because I saw myself. I saw I was 25 years old and I was working in this job as an electrician doing big projects in hospitals and data centers and things like that. And I just saw my career before my eyes. It was like, I'm going to be doing this till I'm 60 years old and I don't want to be doing this till I'm 60 years old. So I said to my wife, my wife is Swedish. I said, we need to move, we need to go somewhere else. And, uh, yeah, and I was pushing for, you know, warmer climbs and different. I had a few different suggestions, but in the end we ended up with Stockholm, Sweden. And, uh, I was unemployed for almost a year when we first moved here. And I started working at 17. So it was a real, you know, it was real tough. Ah, the first year I was thinking I was heading to kindergarten to drop my youngest daughter off. And, um, it was like, what have I done? Minus 32 degrees. And I was like, what have I done? But anyway, I got a job, um, working with automation. So I was basically programming home, um, cinemas and, you know, small WI fi networks in people's houses. And I did that for a couple of years. It was cool, cool to get an idea of, you know, something else, bit of IT experience. And then I applied for a job as, uh, head technician at a company called Eaton, Big, um, American company. Uh, and they work with, um, basically ups, uh, uh, IT infrastructure. So I had this interview with, uh, a guy called Roger Kvist, and he was the MD at the time. And, um, he was like, I think you'd be good at sales. I was like, sales? And for me back then, sales was like a dirty word. You know, I was the blue collar. You know, they always that, you know, other side of the fence sort of thing. And, um, so I was like, does it pay more money? And he was like, yeah. I said, well, why didn't you say so? Sure, I'll give it a shot.

Brian Burns: Should have led with that. Yeah.

Simon: Ah, yeah, exactly. So that's where it started. And I was working as channel, uh, sales. So I was working with partners. And, um, yeah, it went really well. Uh, it was a bit of a luck of the Welsh. I, uh, felt like I had a bit of a Midas touch. Everything I touched turned to gold and it was a great three years. And then, um, unfortunately my closest manager, he got really sick. Tony Wickstrom. Um, and unfortunately he passed away. Um, and then I moved into his role, temporary for a while, uh, looking after the Nordics. Um, and then when we actually got somebody to fill that role I was eager to take a step up. So um, I started working with service sales. Um, and obviously that was something that was a drastic change from what I was working with because with the channel sales it was a hybrid. It was retention and acquisition. But then going into service it was uh, purely working with the customers that I had. Uh, so it was a whole new skill set I had to develop and find ways to make cash, uh, more cash on the customers we already had. So yeah, that was good. And then I got poached by um, got poached by competition vertiv. And that was good but it wasn't really what I was looking for. And then I took a real leap of faith and I took a job for um, a German company and I was starting the company in Sweden for them for something that I had never worked with no experience. So it was a real risk and um, it was a nightmare. It was an absolute nightmare. Um, it was, it consulting and it was basically trying to. Yeah, and it was trying to sell, sell, um, consultancy of people's time who were working in other countries. And probably now it would be very different with the COVID and you know how things have developed. But it turned out that Sweden was very different to the markets that they were used to and that they'd expanded into. I uh, was working 12 hours, days trying to make this work and in the end I actually burnt out. I went into the wall and um, I was really ill. Um, and luckily I found the job that I have now and it's been absolutely magic. It's a great job.

Brian Burns: Now you're certainly the first electrician I've had on this show now because I guess what motivates you go into becoming electrician? Very structured, process oriented, very precise. Bad things happen if you don't do it right.

Simon: It is funny really because I uh, wanted to be a musician. Um, and the only reason why I went into that line of work was because my grandfather owned an electrical company. Um, my eldest brother was an electrician. And it felt like, yeah, if I at least do this, my mum will get off my back and she'll be okay with me. You know, I've got a profession. But it was, it was nothing I ever wanted to do really.

Brian Burns: It was against the grain. I heard. Money motivated. What else do you like about sales? Is it the variety as opposed to knowing what you're doing every day?

Simon: And it's the game. I like the game. Um, I mean sales. I wouldn't say. I love sales. I wouldn't say that But I love the game. And the higher up you come within sales, the higher stakes the game becomes. So, you know, when you're sitting there with big deals and you're talking to more and more senior people, I love the psychology of it and I love the game. And, uh, that's why I've done well. I think because of that, I still have a sort of perception where I don't really see myself as a salesperson. Um, and I think that's because of the first seven years of my career I wasn't. And now I've done nine years in sales, so I should really regard myself as a salesperson. But I still see myself as, you know, more of a technical advisor, if you like. Uh, and I think that's something that I can find, uh, and resonate with customers. Because obviously when you have a customer call, you've got somebody from the business, you've got somebody who's got a technical need, you've got somebody from procurement who's keeping an eye on the budget, and you've got to play all of these cards, um, and you've got to make sure, okay, who do I need to build the allegiance with to make this go as far as I can?

Brian Burns: Um, and, well, let's go with that metaphor, the game, because it is a game. Right. All the game is trying to confine life into something that's manageable.

Simon: Yeah.

Brian Burns: And what about it do you like? Is it the winning? Is it playing it well? Is it beating your competition?

Simon: I think it's the pursuit. It's the actual. What's going on under the time. Because I'm really rubbish at dealing with success. So when I actually, you know, hit a goal or something gets done, I'm like, oh, what do I do now? You know, I've got to do it all again. But it's the pursuit. It's under the time where it's so, oh, are they going to say yes? Are they going to say no? You know, how can I influence it so it goes in the right direction? So it's definitely the chase that I love. Um, and I love how, um, something that you've said previously, and it really resonates with me is no deal's the same. Um, and that's why we haven't been replaced by AI yet.

Brian Burns: Because, well, you know, AI, ah, can take an order.

Simon: Yeah, right.

Brian Burns: But AI is not going to sell a B2B solution.

Simon: Exactly. And every opportunity that comes to the door is different. So it's a different solution and it's a different group of people that you're speaking to. So, you know, there's so much, uh, so many intricacies that you have to take account for that. Um, I think that's what I enjoy, that no meeting is ever the same. Even though it's a similar product or a similar solution that they're looking for. The actual getting over to the goal line is a completely different journey.

Brian Burns: And what makes you good at it.

Simon: Um, don't take myself too seriously. Um, I think there's a fine line between being fearless and arrogant. And you've got to keep that in check. Um, because if you're an hour, if you're arrogant, the customer is going to be like, who, uh, speaking to backfires. Yeah, but you have to have this fearlessness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, if you don't have the fearlessness and the confidence to believe in what you're selling and believe that you're going to solve their problem or you can help them out if you go in there with no self belief that they're not going to believe it either if you don't believe it. So, um, and then you also have to have, you know, a certain amount of self doubt to keep you hungry. Because if you don't have this self doubt, you'll just become, you know. Yeah, yeah. So it's this, it's this balancing act of your own psychology to understand where you're at and m. Where they're at. And I just love that play.

Brian Burns: Well, what was some of the epiphanies that you learned along the way since it was completely orthogonal to your upbringing and your previous experience?

Simon: Yeah, that's a tricky question.

Brian Burns: Um, I mean, why do you use the word game? Is that from a sports background?

Simon: Video games? No, sports. Uh, I love sports. I'm crazy on, on football, soccer, as you'd say in the U.S. uh,

Speaker C: it

Simon: feels like a dirty word when I say soccer. That's a cat's game. Sure. But yeah, I love sport. I love to compete. Uh, and I think obviously these are personality traits that you look for when you're hiring salespeople. You want that competitiveness, you want that almost I know, best attitude. But with experience and with age, you know, you see some things. And I think that's one of the biggest pieces of advice that I would give somebody else who starting off in sales is to know yourself. Um, go and speak to a psychologist or a therapist and know what's going on with yourself and understand what's going on with yourself before you start sort of performing to others.

Brian Burns: Well, you don't meet many great salespeople that don't have some kind of competitive. Because you have to have some kind of emotional attachment to both the process and the outcome. But with the right balance.

Simon: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Uh, I mean if you haven't got that competitive edge, I mean it's a hamster wheel, isn't it? You've got, you've got quarter after quarter. It's a never ending story.

Brian Burns: It's hard.

Simon: So if you haven't got a fire within you, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna make a couple of targets and then it's gonna burn out and you're never gonna keep doing it. So I think you have to have to have goals. I think something that I self motivate myself with is uh, I have a couple of, always have a couple of personal goals and I always have a couple of professional goals. So you have uh, one short term both in your private life and professional life and one more m. Long term that is a bit more ambitious. Uh, can, can one say, um. And without those goals you're never going to keep this fire burning. So you need to have these goals to be reaching for. Um, so yeah, that's, that's one of my secrets. But it is very materialistic. I mean it's a, it's a capitalist trade that we're in and it does help to be materialistic, um, because it's a means to an end. If you have a materialistic goal that you want to reach, you're going to help the company reach their materialistic goals to get the reward. So it's right.

Brian Burns: Because there's a couple of motives that I found with salespeople versus people who don't succeed in sales. If they're. How do I do the least to keep my job? That person never succeeds in sales. And sales, it's like how do I get the most and whatever it takes.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was something that I say to my wife as well because in Sweden we have like three or four weeks where it closes down in summer and everybody's off. But obviously there's still, when I'm on these three or four weeks holiday there's still deals going on in the background. So I'll be getting earache when I'm, you know, on my phone answering emails. And my answer is sales never sleeps. You know, you're always on, you're always on. And um, if you don't answer that email, that could be the difference between the deal landing or not. And um, I'm only going to punish myself if that deal doesn't land right.

Brian Burns: I mean, because yes, the company gives you that vacation, but the customer doesn't, the market doesn't. And whether you work a little bit or not, ah, yeah, you get a vacation but you don't get the income.

Simon: Yeah, it's your choice. Something that you spoke about, um, about working smart. I really like that. And I think that's something especially people starting out in sales need to really get into. And that's um, you know, the lead identification. So when you, when you've got a bunch of leads coming in, you really need to look at, okay, what's going to pay, what are the big ones, you know, the big cherry on top deals and what are the stuff that's very unlikely and prioritize it in that order. And that's always been my mantra, you know, whenever I've worked in sales is work that way. And I mean the thought that when you say working smart, people think you're not working as hard. But I mean it's just, it um, makes it manageable to get through the amount of work that you have. So um, if I didn't work smart, I would no way get near through my workload. It just wouldn't happen. Um, so the only way to get through the workload is to prioritize and set. Okay, this is going to help me reach my targets. I need this deal and then this one unlikely to come in, but I'll do that last.

Brian Burns: Right. And that's it. And people kind of misinterpret. It's like, oh, you're only going to work on the deals that will close. No, you just work on things and the likelihood that they will close and the time frame that they will close. And that requires thinking and reflection and judgment. And it's not easy. It sounds easy, but you get uh, a lead from this huge company, dream account, but it's a low level person. They just got there. That might be a 16, 24 month deal.

Simon: Yeah, yeah.

Brian Burns: A lot of people will go chase that for a year. It's like, uh, I'll get to it when I can.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something I find interested. I work uh, with extremely long um, sales times, uh, sales lead times now. And um, something I find interesting but almost counterintuitive is because we're so quarterly based that we have this, you know, we've got to meet these targets and it's understandable. You know, it's a business, a company that's. Yeah, it's a business. It's on the stock market. We've got to meet uh, we've got to help the shareholders get their kickbacks. But at the same time it's a little bit counterintuitive to those long, long lead time deals because you develop a culture where it's snap, you know, fast cash. And we know uh, to break these big, big accounts you have to do the donkey work to be able to reap the rewards. And I can see like um, especially in uh, a company that has like a quick turnover of people. So if you have a salespeople that are in for a year and then leave, they're never going to be able to develop these relationships that lead to the big payday because they're not there long enough to take the journey with a huge um, optimization or a change of direction. They're not going to be there to see it and be able to advise it. So the company almost suffers in the end because of the high turnover. So yeah, it's a balancing act of um, finding the right people and making them feel like they're safe, they belong and they matter. Um, and that's actually a um, mantra of my company. Um, and um, it's great. I mean it's, it's the best company I've ever worked for. And um, it's um. Yeah, I feel really good there. Especially coming from you know, the catastrophe. Catastrophe, catastrophe, catastrophe. Sorry. Going into the Swedish there, um, that I had in the previous job where I completely lost it and it was, it wasn't through the lack of effort. I was trying, I was trying, um, but um, it just was never going to work.

Brian Burns: And what is your strongest attribute as a salesperson?

Simon: Um, probably uh, listening. I like to listen to what the customer wants and then try and find a solution. Uh, I'm not shy in actually suggesting something else. So if we're on a call, customers got an idea of what they want to do. And uh, like I said earlier, I like to be involved in the technical bot. So I'm fairly technical. Um, and they've got an idea of what they want to do. And then all of a sudden I'm feeling now I can, I've got a suggestion that we can make this better. It's probably cheaper as well. Uh, so I'm, you know, I'm not scared of coming forward with the idea of changing something. Um, and I think that's what gives you um, that step. So you're not just a uh, salesperson anymore. You're now like a trusted advisor. You're coming in with info and experience that you've seen from other customers so they don't have to, you know, test this and think, is this going to work? You can say, another customer did that, it didn't work, but another customer did this, and it worked fantastically. So you save the IT department, you know, six months of doing, uh, a poc, and then all of a sudden it's like you're in. You know, you've made that relationship, and then it's just everything that happens from that point is, I'll call Simon and we'll speak about that. So it's.

Brian Burns: Yeah, because I think a lot of reps kind of, oh, if the customer wants this, they send them a quote instead of like, well, what. What are you going to do with it? Why did you pick that? And we think that they. And I think this is a misnomer that customers come to us, fully develop their vision of what they wanted. They come up with, uh, you know, uh, something out of a magazine or an idea in their head. They want the outcome and they want the cheapest possible way to get there, but they don't understand the implications of all of these things.

Simon: Yeah. Uh, something I find hilarious within the IT industry is when you go to these events and you've got, like, um, a bank or a financial institution or an insurance company or something presenting what they're doing. And, uh, you know, they present it really confidently. We're doing this, we're doing that. Then at the end of the presentation, and it's like. But it is right, though, isn't it? This. This is what you guys are doing. Right. So I love that insecurity. It's, uh, funny.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Brian Burns: Well, that's it. Because how deep can they go into certain things?

Simon: Yeah.

Brian Burns: And think about when you buy. I don't know if you bought a car or a house or TV recently, but you have an idea.

Simon: Yeah.

Brian Burns: You know, unless you really, really, you know, watch YouTube and research it, that sales rep knows a lot about the issues.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. And, um, that's something, you know, due diligence is. Is critical. Um, but that comes back to working smart. Because you can't do due diligence for every customer you're going to meet. You know, you can't go deep. Um, something that I've recently started doing that I didn't used to do before was once, um, you're actually in with a customer and they've got, you know, it's multifaceted, it's got lots of divisions, but once you actually get in, you Get a foot in the door. So you're in with the IT systems. Um, then you've got all of these divisions that have their own IT departments. And once you've got one of them in, then you can just go on all out ATT&CK and hit all of the divisions and say, listen, guys, I got you number from this person. You're already a customer, so all the legals are done. Um, I can help you with this, this and this. Uh, what are your problems you're facing? What are your headaches? You know, what technology are you using? What do you want to connect to? Um, and it's golden. It's the key to growing the account is just spreading the wings. And I think that's a little bit of, uh, naivety on my behalf that you think every one within a company is connected and they all talk to each other and nobody talks to each other. You know, you've got a. Some people are sitting across the hall from each other and they don't know what that department's doing. It's crazy.

Brian Burns: Yeah. Uh, back when you could be on site, I remember, you know, walking through, I always tried to get a badge as soon as I could. Because then you own the account because you can walk around like you work there.

Simon: Yeah.

Brian Burns: And nobody knew what each other was doing, which is both good and bad. What skill do you wish you were infinitely better at?

Simon: Patience. I'm terrible with patience, but at the same time, I know you can't push a customer. But that's more. That's both work and private life. Patience is probably one of my biggest weaknesses. Um, but at the same time, I know the game. You can't push a customer, you can't hassle a customer. You can't be too interested in a deal because then you're just going to make the other side of the game harder for yourself in the future. Because they're going to, they're going to know you need this deal and they're going to want more money off and it's going to be, you know, it's going to be sweaty. Um, so patience is something that I, uh, really work on and try to improve. Um, but.

Brian Burns: But how do you catch yourself from ruining it? Because I think the pushiness alienates clients faster than anything because there's no value to them. They may be moving as fast as they can.

Simon: Yeah, I think something that you have to, you almost have to manage management in those situations because I'm, you know, I'm pretty relaxed. Um, I'm not going to Chase a deal. I've done my part. I'm confident in what I've done. So I feel like I don't need to chase that. You know, they'll come back to me when they're ready. Um, so I'm not a fan of chasing. And I think something. If something doesn't feel right, if you're told something from above and it doesn't feel right and it doesn't sit with your principles, don't be scared to say no. Um, I mean, you shouldn't take. You shouldn't let anyone treat you like you want to be treated or you treat them. So I think if any pressure point is put on you, you can kick back and there's no problem with that. You know, as long as you've got a decent argument and you can say, you know, I don't want to do this because, um, you should always stand up for yourself. And I completely believe in that.

Brian Burns: And I think that we fall into that forecasting trap a lot. His managers want us to, uh, talk it up at the beginning of the quarter and then the reality sets in and they make you look bad because you're not living up to what they talked you up to.

Simon: Yeah, I mean, forecasting is an impossible job because

Brian Burns: I think managers put too much onus on the rep. The manager should be able to tell where the deal is by asking the questions and helping see if there is a way to get it to go faster. And I think reps naturally are optimistic, pessimistic people really don't go into sales, Right?

Simon: No, but I think, um, uh, one of the hard parts is even if you're deep into an account, uh, maybe they're already a customer. There could be changes within the company that makes the deal is going to happen, but the timelines change and there's nothing you or I can do about that.

Brian Burns: Yeah, and putting pressure on the rep just distracts them and annoys them. It doesn't empower them.

Simon: Yeah, but that goes into the coaching and the PT part, doesn't.

Brian Burns: It sure does.

Simon: I love to be coached. Um, I know I'm not the finished article. There's loads of stuff I can be better at. Uh, um, but, um, pointing out things, you know, this, this, this, that. That's not, that's not coaching. That's, um, that's just annoying, like you said. But, um, yeah, it's one of those things that I think you have to develop a, uh, thick skin within sales as well. You know, it has to be like water off the duck's back. Because if you take everything personally, you're gonna. You're not gonna survive.

Brian Burns: You're not gonna survive. And how do you have that thick skin? Is that from soccer?

Simon: No, um, it's from just experience, I would say. Um, I'm. I would hate to manage me. I'm a real pain in the backside

Brian Burns: because I sound pretty interdependent.

Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will push back. Uh, I do push back on things.

Brian Burns: You have an opinion.

Simon: Yeah. Um, and, um, it's interesting with, um, the flow of deals as well. And when you're confident about a deal coming in, you know, basically that you're going to make the year, the year target. But we come back to exactly. Predicting when a deal will come in is an extremely difficult talent. Um, but you can't, you can't, um, ignore gut feeling. Gut feeling is something that I truly believe in. You know, from the conversations, the feeling, the meetings, you know, if a deal is going to happen or not.

Brian Burns: Well, it's. It's also selling inside because everyone loves a surprise and hates a disappointment.

Simon: Yeah.

Brian Burns: So give yourself enough time to make it a surprise and not a disappointment.

Simon: Yeah, that's a tricky one. That's a tricky one. Uh, it's almost like you keep deals a little bit quiet until they start bubbling before you or you need help. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Burns: That's the downside of it. It's like if you need help, they go, well, that's not this quarter. Well, it could be.

Simon: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, um, yeah, definitely, though, thinking about, uh, the psychology of the meetings is my biggest interest, I would say. Um, and something I did recently in a meeting is it's making these connections to people within the call. Obviously, it's more difficult when you're doing it over zoom or teams. But just the small things, the humanisms, the completely go away from the deal or wherever you're talking about. But, for example, I was speaking to a guy in Madrid, uh, a couple of weeks ago, and I know they're crazy about their football in Madrid, so literally I just said, okay, Atletico or real? And he was like, oh, real. And I'm a huge Liverpool supporter. So then this whole side conversation started in over email, you know, talking about Champions League, and, And this has completely changed our work relationship. So everything is much easier. It flows, it's fast. You know, you build just that small humanism of recognizing a common interest builds a level of trust. And without that level of trust, because, I mean, that's, that's what we are as humans. We, some of us Meet. Yeah, meet a stranger. You meet a stranger and you're like, you know, don't know if I trust this person.

Brian Burns: Well, you naturally don't, but. Has that hurt you in Sweden, being Welsh?

Simon: No. I think I've almost had, um, a free ticket sometimes because, um, I've got, you know, I'm. I'm not the. The average. I speak in my, um, hacky Swedish with my accent, and, uh, it's just a little bit interesting. So I think I've had a bit of curiosity. Yeah.

Speaker C: Ye.

Simon: I've had a bit of a ticket, and people ask me things that they probably wouldn't ask another salesperson. So it's like, oh, how did you come to Sweden? Um, you know, is your wife Swedish? Or, you know, what brought you here? Just those. Those kind of questions. And, um, it's all about giving a part of yourself. Um, and as you said, performing. So, you know, you share something and then you go on a tangent and you talk about something else and. And, uh, it develops a relationship, um, which I think is so important. And that actually is a point that, um, I wanted to hit on. And it's a danger in sales is because we're such social animals and we have to express, uh, ourselves. We have to perform, we have to be on our A game. Um, and then when you come home, you know, there's a Foo Fighters song, the Best of you. And that's something that really rings a bell with my wife. And it's. She said it, you know, they get the best of you all of the time. And then you come home and you're tired and you're not that social creature that, uh, you can be. Because they're getting the best of you. Yeah.

Brian Burns: That, you know, you can tell and to be the best of you, but not sound like a salesperson.

Simon: Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Burns: Because you can always tell at a trade show where the salesperson sees a prospect or a client and they light up and it's like a switch. And then the customer walks away and they slouch back and they're, like, not interested in talking.

Simon: And I think that's a dangerous, um, sort of play to make. Um, I think you need to be yourself as much as possible. But even though you're your best self, so you bring out your best stories, you bring out, you know, your energy. Good mood energy. Exactly. But you shouldn't be somebody else.

Brian Burns: Right?

Simon: You can't be somebody else because then that's fake. And then that will get found out a few, really, down the road.

Brian Burns: Yeah. Cool. Hey, Simon. Appreciate your time today. Where can people go to connect and follow you?

Simon: Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, so Simon, uh, Jones on LinkedIn, you can connect with me there. Feel free.

Brian Burns: Did you pick up on his superpower? You know, there was the determination, the competitiveness. But what I sensed, and maybe you'll only get it or get more of it through the video part, is likability. And this seems pretty consistent among salespeople. And I don't mean, uh, so much gregarious or charming. Not that he wasn't, he was. But when people are likable, we like talking to them, we like working with them, we like conversing with them. And to become likable, I think the worst thing we can do is have our sales voice on, our professional tone, our C level conversation. But if we can just relax a little bit. You know, people talk a lot about authenticness, but, uh, usually what they mean is their authenticness, not yours. But if we can develop our likability, and this is something that I, I was told early in my career was to like study the late night show hosts. Um, you know, whether it's Kimmel or Fallon or whoever you like most, watch what they do because they got that job because they were likable. They're not the funniest people. They're funny, but they're not the funniest. They're not the Chris rocks or the stand ups. And most of them have done stand up but, you know, had mediocre success at it. But they are very likable. You could see yourself spending time with them. You want to spend time with them. And I think this is really what clients like, as opposed to the gadfly, uh, the person who talks too much, the person who sucks up all the oxygen in a room, but just have that likability, the desire to spend time with them. And usually it's simple things. It's smiling, it's asking questions, it's showing interest in the other person, it's letting them talk, it's talking about what they care about, uh, you know, giving good eye contact, uh, interest. Those things kind of bring out a great conversation. And it's been pretty consistent among the great sales reps that I like. And it is a skill. Uh, you know, some of us might have it more naturally than others. Uh, and I've noticed it's something that when people move from other fields into sales, they either have to work on it or it's really, um, their advantage. Because if they have likability as a skill already, then Talking with other people becomes much more natural and the other person enjoys talking with them and it becomes less transactional versus you know, um, you know, conversational really. And it is a skill and today it's limiting because we don't have the uh, in person element. So we have to build it up. And one of the things that I teach in the start the conversation, get the meeting is the elements of how to do it digitally, how to do it in text, how to do it online, and then how to transition it to voice onto the phone or online with zoom. Um, and this skill is insanely powerful but it's also a performance, meaning that we don't always feel uh, like we're likable or engaged with the other person, but we may, we always want to. So I really listen, appreciate you listening today. Make sure you're checking out the other podcast sales questions, brutally honest answers and um, also the B2B Revenue Leadership Show. Check out the courses@b revenue.com and the one that I think is going to help most if you're running into stuck deals, deals that are taking too long, deals that stall or just, you know, they ghost you, winning the complex sale will change that process and help you close those deals.

Speaker C: Mhm, Mhm.

Brian Burns: And as part of winning the complex sale, I got a little treat for you today. I've got a short little interview I did with one of the students that's in the course, uh, that will kind of give you a sense of what they got out of it. Now this person did the course and was consumed probably more of it than most people do because there's a lot of it. There's a lot of office hours and one on ones that are really meant to be resources versus just instructions. Now his story, because I remember he was very conscientious, uh, showing up for the office hours and scheduling one on ones. His journey is very interesting because he knew he needed more advanced skills. And I saw the progression that he went through over a 12 month period. He went from somebody who was very busy working on tons of deals, but the close rate was so low and is so frustrating because the deals were just getting stuck. Uh, they were going to buy it eventually, maybe in some configuration or another. And we worked on that. We got the prioritization right, we got him focused on the most likely deals with, we got him to uh, write down that process, apply the course to it and we started to prevent the deals from getting stuck. And his win rate and deal size exploded and he became one of the top Reps in his first year at this company. And, you know, I think you can get a lot out of it. The key points, if you're considering going in the course, if you want these type of results, you have to apply yourself. You can't just listen to them like podcasts. Yes, they're audio and video content, but you have to apply it. But when you do, when you ask questions, when you engage, uh, the audience, the other students, when you really apply it before things go bad versus after they've gone bad, you'll get a tremendous amount out of the course. So listen to this. I think you'll enjoy it. And I hope to have him on the show shortly. Cool. Hey, so what motivated you to join the course?

Speaker C: Yeah, great question. Um, you know, so for me, I was actually in another industry. I was in consumer product goods for a long time, and I had a ton of success. I was more in a leadership type of role. And then I kind of had this ultimatum where I wanted to move to a more individual contributor in a different industry, medical device. So I was kind of changing that. And also when I moved to medical device, uh, Covid happened pretty shortly after. So I kind of got punched in the face a little bit. I needed to sort of kind of reinvent the wheel, continue to get better. And your course was one that definitely came up. And I'd seen your podcast and videos online, and I kind of hit that kind of crossroads where I just wanted to get better and kind of just branch out and improve myself. So that's why I signed up for years.

Brian Burns: And what were you hoping to get out of it?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, so for me, I was. I was doing more leadership stuff, and I went to the individual contributor. So I kind of probably overestimated, uh, my confidence with, you know, going into that. So, you know, I really wanted to close deals faster. I wanted to close more deals and just kind of shorten that process. And, you know, some of the stuff you mentioned in your podcast about the complex sale and how there's a lot of different components to it, you know, sort of caught my eye. So I realized when I got into healthcare, uh, it's very, very complex to get anything done, uh, especially now with what has happened. So it just kind of hit home with me, you know, talking with you and hearing your stories and what you

Brian Burns: should and do you feel it helped you increase your win rate?

Speaker C: Yeah. One of the big takeaways was honestly prioritizing my time the right way and focusing on less deals that are more likely to close as you would say it. So, um, that's one of the bigger takeaways, just in general, over the past year. Taking your course is, uh, being able to close more deals, um, faster and focus on the ones that are most likely to succeed. And that was definitely a straight takeaway from your course.

Brian Burns: And did you, or in your previous experience, was this all new material to you, things that you hadn't been taught, you don't read in books?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely some good things that I was doing, uh, throughout my career. And, you know, some of that I learned through the companies I was at. Some of that was just, you know, mentors that had helped me. Um, however was I writing it down? Was I mapping it out? Was I really seeing that, that big picture of like, what that sale looks like? And I think a lot of stuff that you teach is definitely not taught by most large, large companies and probably a lot of the other people you compete against out there. I think it's pretty unique as far as, like, specifically looking at the complex deal. No matter what industry. There's a lot of similarities. So, yeah, I would say you had a lot of unique stuff. I had some good things I was doing, but was I really mapping it out and writing it down and like, planning with it? Probably not. A lot of it was in my head.

Brian Burns: So how about as far as preventing deals from getting stuck,

Speaker C: like a before and after or. What do you mean? Yeah, uh, before, no, I was just kind of like a bull in a china shop, just following up 25 times. And sometimes that would work, right? I mean, because I was pretty relentless on some of that. But, you know, that's not sustainable long term and it will also drive you crazy as well. So, uh, I was making some of the classic mistakes that you kind of learn in your course. I didn't realize it, but, um, after taking the course and applying the stuff, you know, I'm able to, you know, not prevent everything, obviously, but. But do a much better job of preventing some of those bigger things that, uh, seem kind of small, minute sometimes, but they can really add up in a complex sale because there's so many people involved.

Brian Burns: And how about like, your peers? Would you recommend it to them?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, I can see, especially in healthcare, you know, I can't speak for all the other industries, but in healthcare, medical device, like the way these hospitals work, it is extremely complex. There's so many silos, there's so many different business units you have to deal with. I mean, it's a small army of people you have to get on the same page to get anything done. So yeah, anybody new especially like to kind of break them in the right way. And then a lot of the people that have been around for a while, they kind of, you know, probably assume they can keep doing what they're doing and they might do okay with that. But I definitely would, would recommend it to people at varying experience levels. I think even the people at the very top, you know, you need to get better. And especially post Covid, you got to be very creative in healthcare, that's for sure.

Brian Burns: And you know, for people who are wondering if it's right for them, what would you tell them?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of need to get over your own ego a little bit. I mean a lot of people think they're really, really good at sales and they probably are in some rights. But at the same time, like I think you've mentioned it before, like professionals and whatever industry or athletics, whatever, you know, they're always getting better, they're practicing, they're continuing to improve. And you know, I know beforehand I didn't necessarily think of sales like that as much, but kind of taking your course and doing that, like even if I'm ranked at the very top 1%, I really should be doing stuff to get better. And of course a lot of companies will provide great stuff, but you really kind of need stuff outside of work, whether that be mentors or classes like yourself. So yeah, I think regardless of how good you've been doing, I think you don't want to get complacent and you want to keep getting better. It's just my opinion. So.

Brian Burns: And you know, as far as you know, getting better, do you see it as kind of a destination or a journey?

Speaker C: No, it's definitely a uh, journey because I think most people in sales are competitive and you know, even though once they win a deal they want to keep m moving forward. So I don't see it as a final destination. I feel like it's something really you should be doing throughout your career. Um, I guess until you retire, hopefully sooner than later when you retire. But yeah, I think no matter if you're a sales rep or an executive vice president, you should be doing some type of coaching or training. Um, and this kind of. I was doing a fair amount of stuff, but it was more company driven things in the past. So I think expanding outside of that, I mean nothing wrong with doing it within your company too, but expanding outside of that and getting different opinions. I uh, feel like is a good thing.

Brian Burns: Perspectives and how much time per week did it take you?

Speaker C: Yeah, I had certain moments where I was binging some of your content quite a bit. The actual courses, like I wanted to be sitting down, you know, at home, able to write down notes and put stuff in Word documents, just kind of how I was doing it. So I would say I probably knocked out the complex sale course and six weeks or so, um, I went after it pretty good. And then throughout that and afterwards I would, you know, listen to the one on ones. I would listen to your every two week calls, kind of the open, um, sessions. And I binge that a lot when I'm driving because I travel a lot for work. So I listen to those quite often and I don't necessarily have to take notes on it, but it's just good to get those, those real, uh, life examples from other people. But yeah, the course took about six weeks or so, but that was just the pace I did it at. I mean the nice thing about it is that you can, can do it at your own pace, you know, throughout, you know, even a 12 month period, I guess, if you want to. So.