S1E13: Playfulness Fuels Strategic Thinking with Stephen Matini

Speaker A: Be loose, stay loose, stay soft, stay loose. And then to me, it's amazing thing, you know, that in my, in my head probably as of now, would be the one thing that associate the most with playfulness, meaning, you know, stay focused, you know, be here present, but at the same time, don't get too rigid, too serious, you know, otherwise, you're listening

Speaker B: to the Being Playful podcast, uncovering the secret sauce of how cultivating playfulness in our lives has the power to transform us and the teams we're part of. Now here's your host, behavioral scientist and founder of the Playfulness Institute, Chris Marshall.

Speaker C: Well, welcome to this episode of Being Playful. Today I am joined by Steven Martini. Have I said your surname right there? Stephen. Before I. Before. Yeah. Well, that's always good. It's always nice when you introduce the guest in the right way. Yes. So we've been speaking for, well, I guess kind of on and off for a few months. I was on your amazing podcast a little while ago. Um, we've since been talking about playfulness and kind of how that fits into lots of different areas. Um, you've also completed the three pillars playfulness scale recently. Um, and we'll maybe dig into that. Um, but would you want to start by just telling kind of the listeners of this podcast a little bit about you and what you do and then we'll kind of go from there as how playfulness fits into, into your life and how it shows up.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, like yourself, I mean, the industry of learning and human development, essentially. And like yourself, I wear different hats. Sometimes I work as a business coach, sometimes I work as a podcast host, sometimes I work as a college professor, as a facilitator, as a trainer. So these are basically different methods, different tools that help people progressing. I work with a lot of leaders, a lot of executives, managers, and my focus is, uh, predominantly leadership development and managerial development. So that's what I do.

Speaker C: Amazing. Amazing. And do you know what we do? We have this shared passion for being multi potentialites or multi passionates or whatever we want to call it Multiple hats. I hate the phrase Jack of all trades, but it, but it sometimes, um, Well, I mean, the actual quote is actually really uplifting. I'm sure we talk. I talked about this in one of the episodes, being Playful. It's a jack of all trades as a master of none, but often better than the master of one. Um, and there is, there's synergy that comes from all those. I don't know whether you find this, but for me, wearing lots of different things and being involved in lots of different areas. There's this wonderful kind of. It's almost an individual co creation process.

Speaker A: Yes. I don't believe that there's just a tool that works fine for people. So to give you an example, what I've been doing a lot recently, I've been using more and more and more coaching as a main framework. Just because I love that sort of relationship with people, how you're with them. I find it very respectful. Uh, I find that of all the ones that I've tried over the years is probably the one that leads to permanent changes that people are very happy about. But then what happens? Not necessarily in the coaching session. It happens mostly at the end. I may do what I call micro learning. So in that case, you know, I may switch my head sometimes. Now I'm, um, the mentor. Now I'm more the consultant. Now I am more of a trainer. And you really have to understand from time to time what works for people. So I don't think I could do any other way, aside the fact that just using one would be super boring to me. But, but it really, it really helps people because they need different things. Like to give an example in a coaching session, if people are really stuck and they keep asking you, what is your thought? What is your thought? What is your thought? And I sense, okay, there's, there's a, uh, there's a vital competency missing. It is completely pointless to keep asking the same question. Where would you go? Which first step would you take? It's just frustrating, you know. So I think it's really important to understand all these tools, you as a professional, to have a clear idea of what every single one of them is and never confuse them and to clearly give to the client the option to where to go. So that's on the client side. On my side, uh, most of my inspiration is, I think I shared with you doesn't come from our industry. I find our industry truly boring. Meaning they are amazing minds. If anything, my podcast has given me the opportunity of talking to people like you. You know, I interview scholars, I interview practitioners, I interview entrepreneurs. So I truly admire and cherish studies and such and such. But overall, I think there's a lot of, um, shallow conversations. And it's not just in the industry. Everything is reduced to, you know, these short slogans, you know, clickbaits. You know, if you want to fix this, you do that. If you want to get this result, you do that. Which is so misleading in my personal opinion. So in the industry, no, I don't find much of, um, much of an inspiration other than really a lot of people that I talk for my podcast. But, um, the biggest inspiration comes from areas have nothing to do with my, with my job. You know, when I play the piano, when I play, uh, tennis, when I study, I started, I've been studying Japanese for the, for the past year and a half. I studied foreign languages and somehow those structures, you know, allow me to get a lot of inspiration that then I bring back to my job. Like, you know, you mentioned tennis. Um, you know, I have this personal instructor which keep telling me all the time, be loose, stay loose, stay soft, stay loose. And then to me, it's amazing thing, you know, that in my, in my head probably as of now, would be the one thing that I associate the most with playfulness. Uh, meaning, you know, stay focused, you know, be here present, but at the same time don't get too rigid, too serious, you know, otherwise things don't flow.

Speaker C: And I think what you've just put there is a beautiful metaphor for playfulness because you have it so clearly in the kind of the physical or sporting or, you know, kind of any of those areas where physically it's about keeping loose. I would say that playfulness is about mentally keeping loose. It's about that cognitive flexibility. It's about being able to be adaptable and navigate towards new possibilities. Um, and I think that probably shows up in, as I said, kind of right at the start, you kindly completed the three pillars. Playful on the scale, and creativity was your highest. You scored 87%, which is pretty up there, by the way, so well done.

Speaker A: I lied.

Speaker C: Well, you're not going to have to tell me if you lied to this question. Uh, but there was one in there which you strongly agreed to, and it said I enjoy challenging stuff and finding a solution. Because that, uh, to me is also about this kind of, this cognitive flexibility. It's playfulness. You're exploring lands beyond the current known boundaries. What kind of came to mind? I'm going to throw this back to you at that question. I enjoy challenging stuff and finding solutions. What sprang to mind for you to go, yeah, I really strongly agree with that.

Speaker A: Um, it's, um, what I find interesting, you know, in finding a solution is the fact that most of the time the solution for my own issues, you know, for work or anything, is not right there. I may read about people best practices and what seems to work, but for the most part, I will label all this stuff marketing. You know, kind of what I said before, like, you know, easy Solution to issues that in my personal opinion, way more complicated. And keep in mind that most of my issues come from my being entrepreneurial. I have my own business and for anyone who has ever managed a business, it's not a straight line. It's not, uh, you may hear about amazing people, amazing experiences, but every single path is so different. And most of the time and you really go, I seriously do not know what to do. I mean, I may have an idea, but maybe in this specific instance I need to, uh, find a different angle, you know, type of thing. So the reason why I say I love it because to me it has something almost mysterious about it. The way solutions come to mind. And what I've noticed, I've noticed that after I do my research and get in my data, talk to people, usually the insight comes in the most unexpected way. Most of the time when I walk by myself in nature and really I let my mind running loose and then all of a sudden here comes the thing. So it is, um, you know, sometimes it's nerve wracking. You doubt, you know, will I be able to find the solution to this? But I guess I've learned to trust the process a little bit more, you know, so I do my homework, I get all the data and then I let it go. I cannot keep thinking about it. I have to really, it's almost like a voice that has to come to me.

Speaker C: And I think what you've touched on there is. It's been a running theme of lots of the conversations on this podcast because m. Obviously this season of Being Playful really is about people's personal experience of playfulness. How does it show up and how does it kind of, I don't know, live in people's lives? Always good to have a cough, isn't it, when you record a podcast? Um, and so this, this kind of, this idea keeps coming up and it's, it's kind of around the idea of you master the structure and then you can play within it once you know it, once you've got it. And it keeps coming up in so many different ways, but it's a beautiful idea that keeps coming up is that there is a foundation to have, have in any kind of domain. Whether your domain is coaching, whether your domain is podcasting, whether whatever it might be. Um, and then once you've got the basics, you can then play, you can then kind of step back. Um, does that kind of resonate with what you're saying?

Speaker A: It does, it really does. And um, also, you know, um, as I mentioned, I teach you know, I've been teaching for New York University for the past, what, 14 years. So it's been a while. And through that experience, I'm in touch with a lot of professors, a lot of people, a lot of researchers, and I'm part of the business department. It's called Stern. So you hear the most incredible ideas and stuff. And, um, the thing is, a business school provides students with the foundations to do what they're supposed to do. But truly, if there were a school, a business school that guarantee you success, everyone will be successful. And that's not the truth. What we know, based on statistics, is the fact that most ideas do not work. So as much as we love to fill our mouths with I'm on top, I'm the best, and this and that one, the reality is that, um, very often the process is a stumbling process. You try and try and try and try and try and try, and you try to learn something every single step of the way. When I was younger, I used to feel that, ooh, I'm not good at this. You know, I should know. Look at the person. You know, she's successful when I should be the same. Now instead, I know that it's very much the process for everyone. It's a trial and error and a big chunk. Uh, a big ingredient, in my personal opinion, other than stay loose, is really to have the sheer drive to continue to understand that it is part of the process, that you're going to fall on your ass a million times before maybe you get something right, you know,

Speaker C: and kind of what's coming to me is. So recently I had a conversation with, uh, I don't know if you know the guy, Curtis Carlson. So he's, uh, he wrote the book called I think Innovation. He was part of SRI International, which is, you know, kind of known for many, many very, very innovative products. I think they developed Siri and then, well, a version of. And sold it to Apple and HDTV and drug research and, I mean, lots of different fields. And what was really interesting with that conversation that kind of ties in with what you're saying is Curtis and I were talking and he was kind of saying that there's a ridiculous mantra that we have in the modern world, which is fail often, fail fast. And he goes, yes, it's part of that, part of the process. But you're missing the key thing. It's actually learn fast, that iteration process, that kind of, yes, there is failure involved, but it's not the failure you're chasing, it's the learning. And that's where, uh, the kind of the link between playfulness and that is. That's what playfulness is. It's our natural pathway of adaptability. It's how we, how we learn. And again, bringing it back to something else you said was kind of, you have that beautiful, uh, abstract thinking ability when you're in nature, when you are walking. And I thought it's worth probably touching on that because that then ties into this idea of linear thinking versus divergent thinking, which is where playfulness really excels. Um, and there is a need for linear thinking. I think we'll probably both agree on that. But there is at some point kind of a need to just get stuff done. Yes. Um, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and also, you know, as you're talking, using the same distinction, that's how in my head I envision what I call, um, operational thinking and strategic thinking. You know, anything operational, it's getting stuff done. And uh, it's very much linear. You know, how to do it, you're done a million times, and it's very comforting. Anything strategic, which so many people love to talk about, companies love to talk about strategy. But working with so many clients or so many organizations, oftentimes people don't have time for strategy. They don't, because strategy is something that, in my opinion, it's not sitting at a table, you start thinking about stuff. It's really anything that we are discussing. It's about, how do you call it, like a cross pollination. It's about being impermeable, being open, um, truly try to see things upside down because only God knows what that idea may potentially spark. So strategy, um, and the type of thinking, it's very messy. It is very messy. It's very mysterious. And it's fascinating to me. Probably it pertains more the creative world more than anything else. And one thing also that I notice is that when I use one or the other, it feels I'm using truly different parts of my brain. Like, you know, during the day I use a lot of operational thinking, so probably more linear. And I can see, you know, it's very cause and effect, very, you know, this is what's happening. Analyze. I fix that type of thing and it's kind of predictable. And I bounce from this activity to that activity. Strategy is completely different. Like now I do most of the, let's call it strategic, creative, um, work early in the morning, you know, since coming back from vacation. Now I'm getting up at 6 and from 6 to 10, 6 to 9, I give myself that space and it Is astonishing the way my brain works. Not only, you know, you have more energy, you're rested, but, uh, it's like I go loose, truly, like I do not know what I'm doing. I just let it go. And it's bizarre to see all the connections, all the solutions, but it's a very different world, you know, that, that I need to carve because it will be really difficult to do it, uh, during the day. You know, it's. You cannot get together in a room with people and now let's get creative. I mean, you can, I suppose, but, um, to me, that's not how it works.

Speaker C: No. And you see that, don't you? In so many businesses, they try and force creativity and they kind of go, okay, well, we're going to have this brainstorming session. And all that typically happens if it's not facilitated well is that you get the loudest people, the most extroverted, who want to get their voice heard. They continually get their points across. And the people who have actually got the best ideas keep quiet in the corner. Yes. Um, but I want to come back to this kind of this early morning abstract thinking because I love this, I love what you're doing. And I was just going to kind of offer some kind of. Let's bring some, some of the neuroscience into this if why this is working for you, because I think that's probably really useful for the listeners to understand as well, is that we can't access playfulness when we're highly stressed. That's how we're put together. I mean, it's for some very good reasons that when we're highly stressed, we want to be rigid in our thinking. We actually want to kind of be more that linear thinking style, that operational, uh, thinking style. Because it's normally fight, flight or freeze. It's not the time to be going like, oh, I wonder if this was going on. And so our whole wiring is geared that we have these amazing stress responses, this stress physiology. But at the opposite end of that, it isn't just, oh, we've got no stress and there's nothing. Um, at the opposite end of that is joy and playfulness. And when we start looking at that, so we now have to go into positive affects. So those beautiful feelings of joy and happiness and kind of all the positive emotions. What we also know from research, so there's a theory called broaden and build theory, and broaden and build theory kind of states that when we're in the positive affect, so we're in a low stress state Typically we are able and we actually want to explore beyond our current boundaries. We want to broaden our horizon and build out. Whereas actually when we're in negative affect, so I don't know, anger, uh, sadness, anxiety, all of those kind of things, or just feeling shattered, you actually narrow your vision, um, and you actually start the distance into the future you look changes. When we're stressed, we tend to be very, very much what's happening right now, because again, it's an evolutionary process. You don't want to be going, okay, there's a lion just in front of me, but what am I going to do in five years time? Um, by that time the lion's gone, sorry, you have no more five years. So as the stress response changes, so too does our thinking. And kind of what I often talk about to clients with is that it's not where you are because people often confuse, oh, I'm out for a walk along the beach. And that's where I have my best thinking. It must be something to do with the beach. Um, and you kind of have to go kind of, but it's the environment doing something to you. But so I thought I'd just kind of layer that in because I think what you're doing is lovely and kind of making sure you have that time before the pressures of the day essentially is what you're talking about before the pressures of the day start mounting. And you've got that to do list. And that's part of our stress response. It's an energy creating principle that we kind of write things down and we go, we must do, uh, this, we put ourselves in a position of stress. And before you get there, you access that beautiful seam of thinking,

Speaker A: you know, your explanation helps. Um, me feeling less guilty about something that happened this morning.

Speaker C: That's what this podcast is all about. Just, just lessening, lessening guilt.

Speaker A: No, seriously, because, um, I'm not the type of person who gets up at 6, so it really takes an effort and it's not an effort to get up at 6, but essentially it means that I'm, um, the type of person I need to sleep at hours. So it means I have to go to sleep at 10, which is something that I'm not used to. So there's this whole thing the evening that, okay, I need to change my thing. So it takes an effort to go to sleep at 10. Last night I did that. So I slept, I got up and then, uh, one thing that I didn't mention, talking about the things that I do and um, where I Get my inspiration. Um, I also write fiction.

Speaker C: Okay. You know, amazing.

Speaker A: I'm a wannabe writer and to me that's something really, really important. And one of the reasons that I am getting up at 6 is because there's no other way to do it. And I'm too tired during the day. My brain doesn't work that way. So this morning I was there. And, um, you know, depending what you have to do. So sometimes you do some research, sometimes you go through your notes, or sometimes you actually write. Sometimes you start think character and it goes completely. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Random. It really feels like, um, a puzzle that somehow shows up in front of my face and I really follow where we have to go. So I was having a good time and my partner got up and start having breakfast in front of me and checking the phone and talking to me. And then I felt, God, it really felt like I was having the best dream and someone woke me up and it completely screwed up my flow. So at some point I yelled, I said, for God's sake, you know, I'm not getting up at 6 to talk to you. Which is the rudest thing to say to anyone. Uh, I mean, just go, Go to run, you know, I mean, just get the heck out of my way. This is my space, you know, this is the moment. So I felt terribly guilty. Then I started researching and yeah, a lot of creatives are like that. You know, it really feels like this, this amazing space. But it's, um, it's so, it's so easy to break it. It's so easy to smash it, you know, with, uh, as you said, the worries and a bunch of other stuff. Um, so anyhow, I will, I will talk, um, about neuroscience to here.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you can now be guilt free about it. Yeah. And it's so true though, isn't it? Because, I mean, that is one of the things of our modern life is, you know, it's not necessarily a partner coming in. It's. It's the distraction of a mobile phone. It's, I don't know, task switching or whatever it might be that all of these things require a diversion of our focus. And as you're talking about that, often when we're in that kind of abstract thinking place, that kind of that beautiful seam of playful thinking, it is a flow state, you know, and flow shows up. I mean, to kind of put this in kind of a model form, which is probably very boring. I'm sure there's a more playful way to do this, but let's stick with it. Um, so curiosity, creativity, connectedness is my model of playfulness. And flow shows up typically between curiosity and creativity. And so, you know, kind of, we know that from, um, a lot of flow research that, that curiosity is that kind of looking beyond the joy of discovery, learning more. And the creative process is then actually making new. Uh, it's that process, isn't it? And flow typically shows up in this bi directional kind of bridge between the two that we're constantly going, oh, okay, well, we can write something new here, or let's just go back to curiosity and think about how this character develops. Or it might be a pattern within the finance industry on a spreadsheet. I mean, this is the thing as well, isn't it? That playfulness isn't one size fits all. It doesn't. It isn't kind of, oh, well, if you're playful, this is how you look and behave. Which I think is a common misunderstanding that everybody thinks it's just about being silly. It's joking, it's humor, it can involve those, but it doesn't have to. Um,

Speaker A: well, you know, this is your thing. So you're researching this thing. Me, I'm just someone who tries to use words to describe it. But the best way that I think that I have to describe it, the way that I feel when that happens, um, this type of thinking is mostly listening. It really feels, um, I'm listening to a voice that I really have to stay quiet, you know, it's mostly listening mode. And it, and it truly feels like someone tells me what to do sort of thing, you know, which is nothing mystical to it. I don't know where it comes from, but it could be a solution for my business, could be something for a character. You know, when I write fiction, whatever that is, but it really, it's more listening mode type of thing. Anything else, it feels more deliberately thinking. I'm thinking I'm forcing things and I'm connecting logically, which is fun. But very, very different things to do. Uh, one, the first one, I have to say, it's never wrong, really is never wrong. It just has this, this is it, this is the thing, you know, there's something so sharp and clear about it. Anything else? Depends. Maybe right, maybe wrong. You have to test it and then you have to screw it up and have to test it again type of thing, you know, so both are really important. Uh, but as you said, our lives and the way they are set up, they give a lot of space to one and they definitely sacrifice the first one, which is, which is a Shame, because you will never reach your full potential. But you need to put yourself in a more listening mode, you know, than. Than. Than actually actively thinking.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I would kind of just change that, uh, slightly and just say it's a. It's putting ourselves in a curiosity state. That could be listening. It could be just exploring something, you know, kind of beyond our normal boundary. And. And you're so right that most businesses, they want the creativity part. They love that, and they try and chase that. And actually, what's really interesting is a lot of the outcomes of playfulness. Lots of businesses desperately try and cultivate or foster or build. So it could be reduced stress, which is one of the things we know playfulness does. It could be that social glue that we know playfulness brings us together. Um, it could be the creativity piece or the innovation piece. And what's really interesting is we've kind of gone down this route in business where everything's about efficiency. I mean, it's a hangover from the Industrial revolution, really. Everything's about efficiency. Everything's about process, standardized process, if we can, because then there's no variation, and it's completely opposite to how the human works. And, you know, you can't actually get the outcomes of playfulness consistently and sustainably without embracing playfulness. Yet the workplace, from my point of view, is the least playful place in the world. Um, and so I want to bring it back to actually your workplace, because that was again, kind of in the three pillars playfulness scale, the version you did. I also kind of captured workplace dynamics, and you, again, came out with a very high score there. What were the things which kind of led to that? Because normally it's about kind of, you can bring your own strengths to work, your values are aligned with what you do. These kind of things. Is it by accident that those things are true for you, or is it something that you've cultivated for yourself?

Speaker A: It's something that I need to defend every single day. To me, it really is the freedom of choosing how you want to work, how you want to be with people. And the specific route that I took in my life has been to be an independent professional, which very often people that work in corporate say, well, that's easy. You know, you don't have someone to tell you what to do. Oh, that's easy. You can do whatever you want. No, I don't. I mean, I'm just, um, as dependent on people as you do. Maybe I have more bosses than you do. I have more projects, but the dynamics pretty much the same however, the one commitment that I make with myself every single day is to bring a specific way of being and working in every single situation. You know, now with you, I'm having the conversation that I want to have.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: You know, in my podcast, um, as I said, uh, very often I never truly, never ever, ever had any problems with clients. Clients, meaning the people they go through a learning process. With me being, um, someone, you know, who does coaching. With me being a student, the issue usually arise out of politics, you know, all this sort of stuff, which is probably what people resent the most, because I never met a single person who was not proud of what he or she was doing or was not trying to do the very best, who didn't want to contribute. But the hardest thing, and you know, going back to what you were saying, where places are boring, is that oftentimes those voices, those contribution, those insights don't find adequate space. Why that is, I always go back to really politics and really nobody has fun because working with a lot of, uh, C suite people, I can tell you that pretty much the same thing as anybody else. So, yeah, I think, um, um, there has to be different way. And in my little, little way I try to contribute by creating small spaces in which people can breathe. You know, I can finally be more creative, as you say, you know, without feeling that I need to be so guarded, defend myself. But, um, yeah, it's um, the reason why the score is very high because every single day I make the decision, uh, you know, which, which is not easy because when you work by yourself, there's a lot of uncertainty. It means to say a lot of no's to projects. You know, when, when I sense this is not my thing, you know, this is not something that I, that I think I can contribute, but I need the money. So what I'm going to do, am I going to end up doing something I like and crank it just like anybody else, or I say no and I hope for something else? But it's a, uh, it's a space that I truly have to defend every single day.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Every single day.

Speaker C: Yeah. And that's not so key, what you've just said there. Uh, because playfulness is actually about energy. There's a, that's how most people identify with. It is actually when you get them to really step back from life and really kind of step away from the cultural narrative of what play and playful might be or what they've been taught it is by their family or culture is normally how we really then ramp it up in Us is we can detect a familiar energy. That playfulness comes. Playfulness is a mindset. And it's not that manic energy which we burn through and then we burn out. And it's not that super relaxed state of mindfulness or meditation. It's that middle ground. And that shows up when we're authentic. That shows up when we're in alignment with our values, when we're doing something that actually really does spark our curiosity, that brings us closer to others, if that's part of us. And that playful energy, I think is a really good guiding light for people of what playfulness really is. Because from my point of view, it's that misunderstanding, that's why we haven't got it in workplaces, is because we've. I mean, it's not long ago in human history. And kind of like if we put this on a long history scale, it's not long ago we decided that playfulness might be sinful. You know, that was the reformation. Um, and we've really just followed that path, not ever questioned it. But when people certainly C suite when they start realizing that playfulness is the human, when they're flourishing, when they can bring all of those things. Because, I mean, this is the other bizarre thing. Companies spend tons of time trying to hire top talent, retain top talent, and then provide them a condition in an environment where they can't bring that talent. Um, you know, I call it kind of return on intelligence. And we have a very low return on intelligence in most businesses that we hire the right people. Then we go like, okay, no, don't do the way that you want to do it, or don't bring all of you to work. Um, and it's. Anyway, we're now on a soapbox at the end of a podcast, which is always a dangerous place to be. I want to kind of tie this all together because like, we've gone through divergent thinking or strategic thinking. We've gone through that beautiful abstract thinking bit that you now make sure you get in the morning. We've gone through wearing multiple hats and the synergies that can come from all of that. And I want to bring this back to the environment that businesses and you and me and every listener is actually living through. And that's a highly disruptive time because I believe that we've been able to get away, uh, with more linear thinking, more rigidity, less cross pollination, less divergent thinking. When the world is fairly quiet. Now it's not now it's really starting to become very fluid. And so while in history, these skills might have been nice to haves. My view would be that they're now essentials. And that will become more and more kind of obvious as we come through the next few years. I don't know whether that kind of fits with your thinking and your way you see things or, uh. Because I know before I wrote down a quote last time we spoke and it's. There's no formula for business is what you told me and I loved it. And again, it's that kind of iterative discovery process.

Speaker A: You know, they're not formulas. But if I had to say, based on what you said, uh, what could be something important for people to try doing is to, yeah, it's basically treat people as humans really and be human. Like in practical terms. To give you an example, um, anything that has to do with, um, the business side of things, what I call, you know, the operational side, I really, I believe that I've been able to minimize into the smallest amount, such as I talk to people through vocal messages of 60 seconds. When people send me messages, they know it should not exceed a 60 seconds. When they do. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, this is a minute and a half. Just get to the point, you know, don't bomb me with emails. I'm not going to read it. If it's a contract, sure. But otherwise, I think a vocal super quick should do it. And then what I do. I said a lot of. I said it. Not a lot, I said it time with my colleagues. Usually I try to touch base with everyone once a month and we get together for an hour and truly can be you. You know, it could be a client yesterday and they said, you know, we don't need to talk about business. The conversation goes there, but I want to know how you are, what's going on. And that to me is anything we're talking about. Because in that conversation I really get to know the person. I get to know what's happening to the person, was worrying the person why she does what she does and all that. And then inevitably talk also about business. You know what, maybe it would be nice if we talk at the end of the year, maybe put aside some budget to help this team that I have in this country. That always happens. But long story short is when everything becomes transactional, it becomes boring, it becomes not playful. There's no space for anything. And instead of the beauty about being human with another person is just to let the conversation go. It is still technically business, but you're really bonding. You're creating Something that is going to stay with you, is going to stay with the person and very likely is going to generate the level of trust and understanding that would be very difficult to create it if you enter as the typical salesperson. Placed in this. Placed in that. So, long story short, people, I think we should all be less transactional and just be ourselves, you know, which is the simplest thing in the world. That's what I would suggest.

Speaker C: Embrace the beautiful mess of being a human. Yes. Yeah. And I love the way that you called it a mess before. That kind of. That strategic thinking. Uh, as we wrap up, Stephen, where can people find more about you? Where can we kind of guide the audience so that they, they can discover you and all the wonderful things you do?

Speaker A: You know, this is the first time that actually I'm speaking so truly. I'm so grateful to you because I'm, um, the one usually asking the questions, you know, my podcast. But if people wanted to get. To get a better sense of who I am, I think probably it would be wonderful if they visit me on my podcast, which is PD party over, and then anything else, you know, probably LinkedIn would be the quickest way to find me.

Speaker C: I will make sure there's a link. Uh, thank you in the show notes, but no. Stephen, thank you so much for such a wonderful, playful conversation. We've gone everywhere, which is the whole point.

Speaker A: What we do is easy. Thank you.

Speaker B: You've been listening to the Being Playful podcast with Kris Marshall. The content of this podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only. Nothing we discuss should replace professional medical advice or substitute for seeking help from qualified experts. If you're struggling with any mental health issues, please consult with appropriate healthcare professionals. Until next time, go forth and play responsibly.