Social Media Agency Talk With Duncan Alney

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Anti Agncy Podcast. My name is Jason Yormark, owner and founder of Socialistics. I, this is probably the most excited I've been about a guest because this is an individual that I kind of know. We've crossed paths uh, on numerous occasions, uh, at events and certainly virtually. And uh, he and his agency, at least in the past, was what I would have said our number one competitor. And I say that uh, glowingly. Um, but as they've shifted uh, into a niche based approach, maybe not as much but maybe a little bit. But either way we share very similar paths professionally and I'm excited to have a uh, conversation that I think you'll all love. I'm going to welcome Duncan Olney, the founder of Firebelly Marketing, uh, which is a social media agency. Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Hey Jason. I'm so happy to be here. Really happy. I was looking forward to talking to you and as you said, um, we kind uh, of hit it off immediately over the years and uh, enjoyed hanging out with you in person and uh, yeah, friends first, business later.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And just to give a little bit more context for those of you listening, we're both uh, owners and uh, founders of social media agencies that do very similar things. Um, Duncan's agency I believe Indianapolis or East coast, ish Midwestern location. We're more West Coast. Uh, but I'm pretty sure there are pitches that we both have competed with in the past. Probably most of the time not even realizing it. But uh, I've always said to Duncan and to anybody, there's enough business to go around especially for agencies that are good at what they do. And uh, so I've never, it's never felt like a threat. It's felt more of a friendship and colleague and uh, really excited to just kind of dive in today about some of our experiences and what we're thinking about in terms of the future of this type of business. But uh, let's get started by, let's give the audience a little bit of a background. Tell me, kind of give me your three to five minute uh, overview of uh, where you started and how far Fire Belly came to be and what you guys are up to today.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, I'll segue um, elegantly into Firebully and then I'll talk about myself.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Um, so Fire Belly has actually been around for a very long time. Uh, I spent a few years working for other people and then just didn't want to work for anyone. And so I thought I'll just do my own thing. But I always wanted to do it under a moniker, under a company name. So I started Firebelly in 2001. And then in 2007, after a few years of doing it on my own, kind of getting tired of doing my own thing alone, I started hiring people. And we started doing social almost immediately. But it was just a small part of what we did because as you know Jason, you couldn't get anyone to pay for it right those days. And so, um, then, um, by 2015, uh, we pivoted and said, you know, we're ditching all the digital work, you know, had to resign some clients and went in on social only. And it was very scary at the beginning. And um, you know, we um, just by, you know, I guess the right energy and the right approach, a little bit purist at the time, um, you know, started getting noticed and you know, got some really great work. And we're doing some work for us restaurants, doing some work for some tech companies, doing construction, insurance, all this different stuff, non profits. And then, um, in 2020, late 2021, um, shifted uh, into food and beverage. Those were our favorite clients. The Pandemic taught me, you know, that try to either get into more charity services or food and beverage. Those are my choices. And um, that shows food and beverage. So that's um, offer services and organic paid ugc, some little bit of influencer work. Uh, and then really creative has been the biggest growth, uh, area for us is like producing photos and videos. And obviously that lends itself to some TikTok work as well. But the integrated very all in house. So um, as far as um, I'm concerned, I came to America to be a cowboy. That did not work out. And um, so yeah, um, I realized that ranch life was not for me number one, and especially not as the lowest man on the totem pole and not knowing how to ride a horse at the time either. Um, and not having any coffee shops nearby. So anyway, I, uh, went to work at agencies and uh, then I started my own thing. And um, I lived all over, but Indianapolis has been home for a long time.

Speaker A: Got it. So tons of questions. I'm just going to kind of piggyback off of some of what you talked about. You had mentioned recently. Um, uh, pivoting to focusing on the food and beverage industry. Kind um, of take me through a little bit about why did you decide to do that and what have been the um, pluses and the minuses since doing that?

Speaker B: That's a great question. Um, you know, it's interesting because the food and beverage business that we, that we did and that we based our decisions on was when we were a generalist agency. So we worked, um, you know, we still have a client named Karma Nuts and we've worked with them, you know, since I think 2016. And you know, as you know is forever in terms of agency relations for sure. Just on this, the um, scope and the relationship has only gotten better. And then we did work for um, Fiji Water, some small work for Fiji Water and some wineries, and did a bunch of work for a regional brewery called Upland Brewing. And you know, the work was fun. Um, it was light hearted. There is a certain sort of voice and suggestive selling and you know, giveaways and co branding. There's a sort of this whole vocabulary around food and beverage work. Yeah. And um, you know we like drinking and eating and so um, I think that was what drove in the pandemic when we lost 70% of our business, which was a lot of, it was hospitality business, you know, some restaurants with a lot of tourism and things like that and other companies that just were shutting down everything. I was like, man, if we get back on our feet again, we want to do something that's relatively bankable now. Even food and beverage in terms of the startup world in those spaces isn't doing great right now because uh, interest rates are up. Uh, I mean access to capital is just really difficult right now. And going through the life cycle, the early stages of the life cycle of starting a food and beverage business, much more difficult right now for sure. But the small and medium sized portions of that world are relatively stable, especially the ones that are going straight to consumers. So the benefits have been that, you know, um, like um, I'm just remembering we had a client that was in the um, in the software space and they were like, you know, detecting radiation in different places and they had this technology that could help you. And then we did a crypto, um, based gambling thing and there was so much learning. It was so difficult. Yeah, end, um up the um, personalities were all over the place and it was just, it was a very heavy lift. And of course no one forced. I'm not, you know, crying here. Um, I've always said that agencies and clients deserve each other, but I just, I felt like man, I don't deserve this. So um, I think that there's been a leveling out in terms of like um, you have to always keep learning. But a lot of the blocking and tackling like hey, dtc. These are the Things that matter when you're adding retail. This is the top and middle of funnel stuff that you got to know. These platforms should generally be used these ways. And um, also what supporting role the other marketing channels play. So that stuff is um, I think the lift in terms of getting started is less because you kind of get the space and sometimes we even know the product category. So that's been great because of course food is and beverage are huge, right? Beverage alone there is just in the non alcoholic space, there's so many different kinds of drinks, performance drinks, um, functional beverages, mood enhancers. I mean there's so much stuff and then there's the whole zero proof alcohol drinks and the spirits, beers, wines, whatever. And then the food space is the same thing. So sometimes you'll come across a category like, man, I don't know anything about this, but it's a little bit more unusual. The downsides have been that uh, man, the office is um, a year and some months into this, the office is like, we have a tiny office and I shared enough. Shared, but it's a co working space and um, the office is like overflowing with product. Um, you know, and because we, um, because I also have a podcast. A lot of times people will send, you know, samples before the podcast or we're shooting pictures after the podcast. So there's been, there is a definite tendency to overeat and over drink. So I have to definitely exercise some restraint. However, sometimes it can be like you said before in the pre show conversation, there can be a little bit of like, okay, it's the same thing. And so there are definitely times where we'll take on a client that is not strictly food and beverage. Like it's adjacent or it's like in one or two cases, nothing to do with food or beverage.

Speaker A: Do you find that since you've switched over to food and beverage, uh, have you experienced increased, uh, closing rates? Because the fact that you're a subject matter expert and that's all that you do, have you experienced that?

Speaker B: I mean. Okay, so let me start by saying, um, and you know, any agency owner that doesn't think this is fucking lying. Yeah, because, um, when we were. When um, I'd gone through like an interesting relationship with a former executive who did not believe at all in food and beverage and that person departed and I was like, hey, I'm the leader. I've got to make this decision. You know, and the decision. And it scared the living shit out of me because now everything that we do that's out there in social, web, email, anything says food and beverage. And so making that switch to say, okay, food and beverage, to putting our work out there, removing anything that wasn't food and beverage, I was really, really, really scary. Uh, however, you know, there are a lot of agencies, unlike yours and mine, uh, that don't do marketing. You know, uh, they don't, uh, put themselves out there. Uh, it's either all referral work or it's serendipity. And I just. Years ago, it was when I first met you, actually, I was like, I don't really want to depend on serendipity for my future livelihood or other people that depend on me. So, you know, we did what a lot of agencies don't do, which is pay other agencies to do work for us. So it's like, you know, we, uh, have invested in an SEO agency relationship and a PPC relationship. It's like full funnel Google Ads, um, you know, produce video. We do all our own organic, we do our paid, you know, we work with ugc. And so I think between all of those, the leads have a decreased because there's less general leads. Um, like 95% less general leads. Right. And probably a tripling of, uh, food and beverage leads. And so, you know, could we get more food and beverage leads? Certainly we could. Uh. Are they better qualified? Yes, they are. And the closing rates, I think, you know, are probably, you know, probably still in that 5 to 10% range. Um, which sounds low, but I swear I was probably when it was, when I was dealing with the general leads, I was closing at the 1 and 2%. And so my calendar filled with calls. Yeah. And I'd send the proposal. I handle this dev, like a lot of, uh, smaller agency owners do. I handle the biz dev. And you know, they wouldn't go anywhere. And so it's like a lot of busy work. And so I think that, um, Yeah, I think, you know, the conversions are up. Definitely.

Speaker A: No, I'm. I still think about, you know, niching down by industry. And I've always just been held back by the fact that, um, for every reason you can argue it's the way to go, there's a counter argument. And I think there isn't a right or wrong answer necessarily. I think what it ultimately just comes down to is your particular circumstances and what works best for your team and your business. Uh, but there's a lot of appealing things to me about. There was a moment in time, I think we were considering food and beverage and then we didn't do it. And Then film, I thought the film and entertainment industry, I'm like, oh man. And that was more of a personal thing because I had almost gone to film, film school and I was so passionate about that. But I think it gets scared away because the, the couple of the opportunities that we worked on were very volatile in the changing streaming demo. You know, the uh, so it's just like the volatility around it was just scared the out of me. So you know, I think we, we are who we are and we're just kind of leaning into that. But lots of appeal to, to the thought, uh, and idea of um, of going down that path. Another question I had for you. Has your um, I know you, I think you're similar to us in terms of inbound, but have any of your marketing strategies in terms of lead generation for the business shifted in any dramatic way since changing to this new model?

Speaker B: That's a great question. I mean, no, they have shifted. I mean, uh, you know, we do a lot of like, on site optimization with our SEO in terms of like making sure that we're um, building out content that answers the question that the person's seeking to find an answer for. Uh, we produce um, blog content around many different food and beverage, um, keyword phrases. Um, um, of course we do the podcast. And the podcast, it's kind of like the podcast is interesting because it's been a really great credibility builder. Um, I, um, interview and we shine our light on um, founders of uh, mission driven food and beverage companies. So it's not any food and beverage. We have to like, turn down some really great guests. Sometimes we're trying to look at people that are making the world better. So it's like, you know, gluten free or if it's decadent, you know, it's decadent in a good way.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: People, um, that are planting trees or you know, they're really focused on their people. So that has been really interesting because it has really built a community around me and around the company. You know, and we don't ask for anything. It's just, it's all advocacy work. Right. It's like, hey, you're a founder, we'd love to talk to you. Um, but I mean the, the Google Ads certainly, you know, they're all optimized for food and beverage, optimized for decision makers and influences in the decision making process. So uh, there are things that we want to do better that we just, you know, in spite of doing all our own work. Our organic program is huge. You know, it's um, it's. Unless something goes wrong, it's one piece of content every day. Yeah. So 30 pieces content, 30 days.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And that's a lot. I mean especially. And we, a year and some months ago we were doing 30 videos per month. And it's just so much, so much. We don't do 30 videos anymore. A lot of video. But I mean, uh, it's interesting because, um, it's um. You, you actually have to put a lot of time and money and effort, the biggest, uh, the biggest one is the effort into your own work. And we've done that. Yeah. And I think that. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker A: No, no, please finish.

Speaker B: I was going to say, I think that, you know, the video piece is interesting because, um, for being, I mean, you know, if you're 120 person agency and you decide, hey, I'm gonna start a video group and hire four people, that's not that big a deal, right? Uh, four people, they're gonna come in and do everything. When you are like 10 people or 14 or 15 people, whatever it is like suddenly starting a group that focuses on video, it's either a slow process, which is how I did it, or it's a heavy lift very quickly. And just being able to put out that kind of finished content every day for ourselves has given us the last year and a half has given us a really great insight into what it's like to produce 30 pieces of content for someone else. What are the workflows? What are the pitfalls? What shit goes wrong? Like we found out we couldn't use Google Workspace anymore for storing our digital assets because shit gets lost or you can't share it, or when you do share it, you forget to unshare it. We went to the Digital Asset Management System. It's been, uh, it's been a very interesting and fun journey. Um, I remember, I don't know if you ever met, um, Chris Dreyer. He, um, was one of the masterminds, uh, we were in together. He focuses on personal injury law. And the only reason I bring him up was because we were talking one time and he said to me, he goes, if you ever go down the path of a niche, make sure that you get to know everyone in the niche, not just the future clients and not just the clients, but you know, you know the legal people, you want to know the HR people, you want to know the designers, you want to know manufacturing people. And that has been really, really hard to get to know those people because, you know, the way you and I were all we're very similar. You know, we have some semblance of balance in our lives with our families. And so it's like I'm not sitting here, you know, till 8 o' clock at night making calls to get to know people. I do it kind of in an organic way. Right. You know, I'm going to get, not going to ask you for anything. But, um, that has been, that has been very difficult. So I think that's where in terms of our, you know, efforts on our own marketing or our own, um, work has been difficult. That piece has been very difficult. You know, going to the trade shows and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker A: Well, this brings up a really great point that I want to kind of continue the conversation around. You get so many, there's so many people like we, you know how competitive this is. Every day everybody's starting an agency and you've got a, uh, younger generation that's grown up on social media, so they think that they're experts and that can just spin that off and create an agency going to make millions of dollars. I see it all the time on Reddit. You get posts all the time like, I'm starting an agency. And they're asking these very rudimentary questions. And of course they are, because sure, yeah, they might be great at certain aspects of social media content or driving engagement, but they don't know the first thing about a business and all of the intricacies that come with that. And I think what you just described is a perfect example of that because I can relate to that, um, as an agency, we've been around not, I don't think as long as you, but you know, five or six years. And I knew from day one that we had to commit to, um, putting out content regularly, whether it was blog posting, podcast episodes, video, social media content, and doing it all of the time consistently. And the sum of those efforts over the years has put us in a position and this is why we're still an agency, this is why we have survived. Because while everybody else is throwing money at Google Ads and throwing everything at the quick fix, uh, things, um, the agencies that are really thriving are the ones that have committed for the long game. They've put things out, they're being helpful, they're putting out great content. And over time that translates to increased search visibility, increased authority, and ultimately somewhat of a predictable pipeline of opportunities that come your way that you're not paying every time they click on it. So we a lot of organic, uh, opportunities because of the sheer volume and dedication and consistency to doing it. And then I think that's what separates, um, the pretenders from the contenders. It's the, the ones that are really doubling down, putting in the work and understanding that this is not a get rich quick scheme. Um, so one of the questions I wanted to ask you around that and if you share to the extent that you're comfortable with, because I think SEO is a really interesting area that we haven't invested a tremendous amount of resources into, at least with, uh, a partner. But we have put out a bunch of content. But I think that that's something that we need to take a closer look at. So I'm just curious in terms of what you guys have done as an agency. You've kind of talked about your commitment to content, but are you partnering with an SEO agency? How much are you investing in that? Because I think there's a lot of misconception m around that too. People think that, you know, really good SEO is not cheap. So I'm just kind of curious, you know, what you guys have been doing with that and how it's worked out for you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean we, um, we work with Amplified SEO. It's um, Scott Johnson's company and actually they don't even do agency work. Typically they focus on SaaS and tech, um, companies. But he's a friend and so we work together and it's worked really well. Um, and there are things that they do strategy wise and then we execute tactically. I mean, it just depends on, we have writers on our team, so we can do that. Um, but, um, you know, you can expect with, in my opinion, with SEO, I mean, you really like, it's. Anything you do with SEO is at least 5,000amonth now.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: And so I think that that's one piece, you know, the Google Ad piece, the PPC piece is, you know, depending again on who you're talking to and you know, what they're doing and how they're doing it and who's doing all the different pieces. Like for one thing you have to have content, but even to run ads. But, um, you know, again, it's a, it's a several thousand dollar, you know, lift and depending on what you're spending, you know, those, all those pieces. And the other thing about it is we don't do generalized, um, Google Ads anymore. It's all niche specific. Right. So it's interesting because you're right. I'll just go back for a second. You may have to bring me back on track, you know, to what you said about um, it is a long term business and I see two sort of like parallels. Maybe parallels, maybe like bookends you see like on the outer ends of outliers. One is the, you know, um, unseasoned fresh person. You know, they might be, you know, in their early 20s or they might be much older, but they getting into social because you know, it's the thing to do. There's low barriers to entry and they're going to get in, they're going to talk about the agency and I mean it's a cliche at this point but you know, they're going to pose on or you know, they're going to be flashing cash and my, I mean if you can do it, do it. But that, that type of approach, you know, where there's a lot of negativity around slamming other people that are doing it, you know, I think there's always been in the beginning of your career, you're going to challenge the ones that are doing it successfully. So you have to like slay the master, you know, but, or the one I've seen recently is, you know, social media is dead start an AI agency and it's like, what does that even mean to have an AI agency? Agency.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, because at the end of the day it's marketing and you know, I'll get to the other outlier in a second, but it's marketing. Right. So you, in addition to the entrepreneurship piece, which is supremely difficult, it's supremely difficult, uh, you have to actually know what marketing is. And if you are in SEO, maybe you can get away with just doing the technical work or if you're, you know, running an ad, you're only doing targeting and you're optimizing campaigns. But in the bigger picture it is still marketing. You know, it is still advertising and marketing and you have to get that piece. And if you do, if you're not classically trained, you got to learn it, you're going to learn it quickly because otherwise, you know, you may be an agency but you're not actually adding any value. And so I think that's the piece that eludes a lot of people. And at the end of the day you have to realize, I mean one has to realize that it's about getting people's attention with something that is valuable, potentially valuable to them. You've got to get them engaged, you've got to spur some kind of trial and then you've got to produce a conversion. Um, and post conversion there's still work to be Done. So I mean, that sounds so simple, but it's really not. Yeah.

Speaker A: So too many people think that it's easy. And look, AI is a tool. You know, I think that, you know, it's, to your point, it's like it's not gonna, you got people panicking that it's going to take people's jobs. And I, I don't agree. I think it's really just another tool. And I think at the end of the day, companies traditionally that higher agencies at its core, they need expertise, time, um, and that doesn't change. Like, yeah, maybe they could use AI to make things a little bit easier, but they still don't have the time, they still don't have the resources and they still don't have the experience to leverage that tool in a way that's going to give them what they need. So I think what it really comes down to is as an agency, you just need to be plugged into this technology and learn how you can use it effectively, uh, in, in conjunction with that experience and that some of those classically trained marketing principles. So. Totally agree.

Speaker B: I agree. I completely agree. Um, the other piece I was saying before about the outlier is that there's this agency owner archetype. Right. Who has gotten into it, uh, because they're envisioning this massive payday.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Right. And so instead of like being focused on the clients that they're working on and adding value and building their business that way, their experience is a different one because it's like, hey, I gotta be 100% focused on three years trailing profitability because being too involved in the business at the same time, which is crazy. How do you do that? Uh, because I'm looking for this eight figure exit. It's like, hey, best of luck to you. But um, I think that the number of people that have those exits, I mean I've been in the same agency mastermind that you and I were in and in five years I think I've seen two exits like that and there have been hundreds of members. Yeah, it's like. So, um, I don't know, I'm skeptical about that whole like, hey, you're gonna have a great exit if you run this agency. It's like, you know, um, a lot of people can build agencies, but very few people get that exit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, a healthy exit. But you know, it's like, yeah, I got a 20, 20 million dollar exit. Well, best of luck.

Speaker A: Yeah. So let's pretend for a second. Uh, and I'm assuming because I Know, I'm going to promote this a little bit on Reddit to get out in front of aspiring agency owners, young or old. So, um, assuming somebody that's listening to this, that has some marketing chops, you know, they're coming into it with a little bit of experience, but they know they're, they're wired to be an entrepreneur, they want to start an agency. That's what they want to do. That's where their heart lives. But it just feels so overwhelming. Um, what are two or three things, pieces of advice, things that you've learned that you would tell an aspiring agency owner, um, that they really need to be thinking about or focusing on or just a direction to point them in that's going to, uh, lead them to potentially being able to do such a thing.

Speaker B: I mean, the majority of agency owners that I know were, you know, are former tacticians, you know, who rose up the ranks and then, you know, decided to do their own thing. It's, it's rare to meet someone that started out as an agency owner, you know, launch an agency because I mean, how are you going to get, I mean if you're not the person doing the work, which all of us have done some work or all the work at some point, how are you going to get started? Right. Unless you come to the table with a whole bunch of cash, which I can think of one particular agency owner that I'm, um, not going to name her name, but, uh, where she um, got a bunch of cash and so she started it with a whole bunch of people. Unlike most of us that have started, you're doing some work, you've got a couple clients and you hired someone, you hired another person and you went that way. But even that way, my advice to people that are wanting to get into the agency business is don't, I think I agree, don't do it. Because, you know, 80% of all companies fail in the first year and I think out of those 80% that remain, I think another 10, another 50% of those fail in uh, the second year. So, you know, the odds are stacked against you in general. But you know, with the agency business, the relevance is a huge deal and it is a young person's business because the hours that you put in, only, only young people like in their 20s are going to work those kinds of hours. Yeah. So, um, it's a long term play. You know, you can be very successful with a specific component inside overall marketing, um, or subcomponent inside. You know, like you're just doing social ads, you can be successful at it, but it's going to be a grind regardless of how you do it. And switching into an owner mindset is actually very difficult for most owners. You know, it's like, hey, I have to. I have to operate as the owner. So I think that just knowing, you know, what your pathway is gonna look like broadly in your head, and also giving yourself permission to be successful, which it seems like a lot more people give themselves permission than in our generation. Jason. I guess maybe we were challenged by boomers who did not think that anybody else could be successful.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And all the Xers were like, hey, you know, maybe I'll be successful, but maybe not. And now a lot of people are like, hey, of course I'm going to be successful. Which I'm just saying, like, hey, you know, you have to be prepared for the eventuality that you'll fail and what is your backup plan if you fail?

Speaker A: Yeah. And piggybacking on that. I agree. Uh, I want to see a lot of people that are just like, oh, I'm going to start my own agency. And they think it's so simple. I agree. Two things. One, I think we live in a time where you better be prepared to niche down horizontally and vertically. If you think you're going to come into this game and be a generalist in any capacity, you're going to get steamrolled. Like, you need to pick a specialty and you need to pick an industry. That's your only shot. And there's enough business in the world to be able to carve out a nice piece of business if you've got the chops to do it. That's number one. And number two, to your point, you have to do it first. You have to have a portfolio of work that you've done, even if it's for somebody else. Like, you got to be in it. So to expect that you're just going to jump into a career without any experience, you need to experience agency life. You need to do the work and leverage those experiences to put yourself in a position to be able to build something and take that 80, that 75, 80% failure rate and lower that for yourself, because that's the only way you're going to increase the odds of you jumping into something and having it work. I've started, I think, three or four businesses throughout my career that all failed. It wasn't until socialistics that I got it right. And I'd argue that those failures helped prepare me to inevitably do something successfully. So it's really hard to Jump out of the gate and do it, um, without having those experiences. So. Couldn't agree more.

Speaker B: And I think that even the things that are the greatest benefits of doing your own thing, such as. I'll call it relative freedom. Uh, it is relative freedom. It's not freedom because while an employee is probably going to check out and go enjoy the weekend, still thinking about it, you know, you'll still suddenly stop and say, hey, I forgot to do this and I have to do it now. So I think that, you know, um, there are definitely. And you're never going to get paid. Okay. It's unlikely that you will get paid as an agency owner the way you get paid in a corporate marketing job. Yeah, yeah. So I think that it just depends what your values are. And, you know, also like finding, finding a job in your mid-50s as an, uh, advertising executive. Best of luck.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, that train has shipped. For me. I'm like, this better hold on, because I'm going to be working at Walmart if it doesn't at this point, because nobody's hiring an old dude for this sort of thing.

Speaker B: But at Walmart will have the best greeter ever.

Speaker A: Probably they'd be less stressful too. Um, yeah, I agree. For me, you're right. You're absolutely right. I could get paid way more if I had stayed a traditional path. But for me, my values was free. Freedom for me is freedom of choice, freedom of, I'm going to work today or I'm not going to work today, I'm going to go see my kids Little League game. I'm not tied to a desk or a meeting time. And I think this is true for a lot of people. As you get older, time becomes more valuable than money. And if you play your cards right and you do things the right way, um, you can buy yourself more time. And I think a lot of people will take a little bit less money for increased time. And that's how I. These days, you never know how long you get to. You're going to be on this planet. So every minute counts. And, um, I don't regret taking that leap. Um, certainly I'd have more money. I think it's all relative. There's plenty of people that aren't making a lot of money and struggle to make ends meet. And it just depends on what's important to you at any given time. But if entrepreneurship is your path and you want to go down that road, I think you share some really good insights around, um, you know what you really need to seriously be thinking about in terms of expectations. So, um, on that impact.

Speaker B: I'm so sorry. Impact. Maybe something that you and I share in common, which is one of the things we share in common, which is like, hey, I need to. I'm going to make an impact, you know, and part of my compensation is the impact for sure, like I'm going to make. And the world would be a poorer place without my work. Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think a big part of the reason why I'm at where I'm at is because of that mindset. I genuinely, unauthentically want to help people. I think my greatest strength is also my worst weakness, which is generosity with time, with money, um, sometimes to a fault. And at the end of the day, I can live with that. Um, but I think we could probably be a much bigger agency if we took everything that came our way and told people what they wanted to hear. But that's just not who we are and what we do. So I think our growth and our trajectory as a company has had lots of hills and valleys because we're competing with everybody that's doing those sorts of things. But I think what happens is over time, you know, when people or businesses have bad experiences, when they're told anything just to get to win the deal, they inevitably find their way to someone like us or you guys, that, that does things in that way and it sticks. Keeping clients to me is always more important than winning new ones because those are relationships, they're friendships. The work is better because everybody's working with people over an extended period of time and there becomes likability and trust and love that exists. That just makes that agency environment, um, just a better place to live and to breathe and to do the things that we do. So that means making a few extra, a few less bucks, then so be it. So what are, uh, before, before we wrap some things up, one of the things I wanted to ask you, uh, to kind of provide some insights to those that either run an agency or thinking about it. Um, what keeps you up at night these days? You know, when you're thinking about the agency game, the state of social media, um, what, what is, what's keeping you up at night? What are you worried about? Like, what are the challenges that you're faced with today and in the, in the near future?

Speaker B: I mean, um, um, I've actually written an article that will be coming out in Ad Week in a few weeks about, uh, how permission based marketing has kind of gone awry. I mean, I remember 20 years ago when Seth Godin first wrote about permission based marketing and how, you know, hey, I'm gonna opt in, you know, and that system is abused. That system is abused. There's a lot of shaming with, hey, are you sure, um, you don't want to opt in for this? Um, there's a lot of fear. A lot of sites make your life very difficult so that you don't accept all the cookies. And they'll say things like the optimization experience requires you to accept all cookies. And then they say they're not going to target you with stuff, but you do get targeted with stuff after you've said so. I think that kind of like there seems to be this sort of overly, I mean I remember in the, this is sort of like this has its genesis in the, in the late 2000s where it was all about results, you know, results, results, results. And it's like, hey, you know, nobody's asking what the process, it was all about the results. And you know, you had this whole genre of agencies which you still see this kind of tagline out there. Data driven agency. It's like, who isn't a data driven agency? Even billboard agencies are data driven because they're looking at by traffic and peak times and all this visibility and all this kind of stuff. So data driven is nothing. Everybody does it. It's like saying we use our minds. Okay, great, well, what else were you going to use? I worry about the fact that we're so focused on the results that um, you know, we ask. There's a lot of agency owners, you know, it's like, hey, you have come to work at this agency and you're going to make this comp. You will work on the weekend, you know, you will work, you will work a 14 hour day. You know, you will um, not have a personal life, you know, and to me those kinds of things, it's, it's the ethics of it. It's like, I mean, how are you putting people first? You know, you're not, you're not concerned about their privacy really. Uh, you're saying you're concerned, you're not concerned and you're not concerned about their well being and that those two things, I mean to me, again, it comes down to ethics. But um, yeah, that's what keeps me now. I mean, I also worry that um, you know, I lead a pretty, a pretty balanced life of being a founder. I worry that, hey, I gotta get enough sleep, you know, so I try to, my sleep hygiene is pretty good. I try to sleep at least seven hours, uh, work out first thing in the morning. I take down time, I take family time. You know, I put stuff back into my brain.

Speaker A: But, yeah, no, I can relate to just about all those things, especially as you get older, especially the sleep thing. I think people don't realize the health benefits, like, if I. Which is rare, like, if you. If I can get seven or eight hours interrupted, the way I feel the next day is monumentally healthier than the days where I'm waking up and shifting or not getting it. So it's important. Uh, I've learned that, especially with the latter years of my life. Fantastic. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you again? M thinking about aspiring agency owners or people that are running an agency. Anything I didn't ask you or any kind of parting words that you feel might benefit, uh, the audience.

Speaker B: I was on a podcast, like, a couple years ago, I think it was maybe two and a half, three years ago, and they asked me the question, you know, like, what was some of the. Well, how come you were successful when so many people succeed? Uh, uh, agency business? And I said, well, at the time, I said, well, you know, I. I had a burn, burn the boat mentality where, you know, like a Viking, I was like, I was there and I. There was no possibility of retreat. So I burned the boat. I could not succeed. And since then, I have, um, changed my mindset and my opinion about that. It's like, no, I will never operate like that again. It's not a healthy way to operate. I think that there's always a, uh, possibility that you have to quit or that you're not going to succeed at something or you're not going to succeed at it the way you're doing it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you have to do it a different way. But burn the boats should not. We should not ever put ourselves in that position to say burn the boats. We should always have a backup plan. M. Um, even if it's something totally different. It's like, hey, my backup plan is, if the business fails, I'm gonna take six months off and decide what my next step is.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, no, I want to answer that question, too. If I had to pinpoint one, why this time? Like, why did it work this time for me? Um, what is the one thing that I can bring it all back to that I feel was the foundational thing that allowed this business to thrive? And look, there's a hundred reasons why it did. Um, certainly my team being a part of that, but it's just me being generous and authentic and bringing high energy and just being likable to those that I engaged with. Early on, I think I was passionate about what I was doing. I, um, brought high energy and I was really generous with my time and truthful with everybody. And I think that just, I think as time goes on, I think the world has been moving away from those sorts of traits. Um, and I think when you are that authentically, it can stand out and it can be a really big foundational thing. And it sounds really corny, but ultimately I really believe that's the why and that's how I was able to do things differently. And to your point, there are people that attack it in different ways. Somebody gets a million doll dollars and 10 people to kind of. That. That's a shortcut, you know. Yeah, money can, you know, do that. But for most of us that don't have a lot to work with, especially people that are listening, that want to start something but they maybe don't have it, it's that. And you got to be patient because it doesn't happen overnight. So to me, that, that's the one thing that really probably foundationally led us to, to where we're at and continues to allow us to continue to thrive enough to, to live this life. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I want to thank you for, you know, you are a, um, super sincere guy. I've known that from the beginning. And you are making the world a better place. And you're also, you know, your, um, truthfulness and your vulnerability are just exceptional. And I've always been drawn to that, um, part of you.

Speaker A: No, I appreciate it and the feeling's certainly mutual. I think it's a big reason why you and I have stayed in contact. Maybe not as much as I would like, but, you know, we're busy people. But I think when two people connect in that way, nothing can really prevent them from staying connected in some capacity. So, um, but, uh, I. Look, this could have easily been a three hour podcast, but I don't think I've earned it yet. So, uh, maybe someday in the future when, uh, this podcast gains some steam, uh, I'll bring you back on for a lengthier conversation. But really, uh, great stuff. I love talking with you, um, offline and on. And, uh, before we wrap things up, tell everybody where they can find you, what you're doing, all that good stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you again so much. Um, A L N e y on LinkedIn is probably the best way to find me. And my, uh, company is Firebelly marketing dot com. And, uh, yeah, um, we've got all the socials. They're either Firebelly Marketing or We are Firebelly and look forward to connecting with you.

Speaker A: Awesome. Well, Duncan, thanks for being on the show. And for those of you listening, thanks for, uh, for jumping in and catching some or all of this, uh, like, share, subscribe, all that good stuff. Thank you for listening and we'll catch you, uh, on the next episode of the Anti Agency Podcast. See you next time. It.