Teds thoughts with Benjy Leibowitz .From New York Apprenticeship To Shoreditch Success At One Club Row

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Ted Sharmer, founder of One Voice 2 - > Hospitality. 3 - > I spent over three decades, and I think a bit more now, in 4 - > hospitality. 5 - > But what's always mattered most to me are the people and the 6 - > characters behind the businesses. 7 - > Hospitality is built on conversation, trust and 8 - > relationships, and One Voice Hospitality exists to bring 9 - > those conversations together across the industry.

10 - > There are big wins, real struggles, and a lot that 11 - > doesn't get said out loud. 12 - > And I want to share these stories with you. 13 - > Over the series, I'll be talking to some of the industry's 14 - > leading figures, hearing how they've built, adapted, raised 15 - > capital, told their stories, and navigated change. 16 - > If you care about the sector, the people in it, and where it's 17 - > heading, subscribe and join the conversation.

18 - > I think I'm hearing a patter of rain outside. 19 - > Yeah. 20 - > But I'm sitting in the private dining room, otherwise known as 21 - > PDR, of one of the sexiest restaurants in London, I'm going 22 - > to suggest. 23 - > And one of the most famous canopies of uh certainly of East 24 - > London, that's for sure.

25 - > Maybe. 26 - > Um so we're actually in the top floor of One Club Row, and I'm 27 - > sitting here with my lovely guest, Benji Liebewitz. 28 - > Hi Tad. 29 - > Welcome.

30 - > SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me. 31 - > This is great. 32 - > Welcome to One Club Row again. 33 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.

34 - > It's just always a pleasure to be back. 35 - > I've seen some brilliant cocktail making downstairs, and 36 - > you know, this is obviously uh a fab place that I'm very happy to 37 - > visit, never ending. 38 - > So uh but we're here today to talk about you and to talk about 39 - > hospitality, talk about your business, etc. 40 - > And I always like to try and start at the beginning because I 41 - > think it's quite a curiosity for a lot of people as to how you 42 - > might have found your way into hospitality right at the start.

43 - > What piqued your interest? 44 - > How did this happen? 45 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I um I fell into it, as I think a lot of 46 - > people do. 47 - > So I'm a London boy, born and bred.

48 - > But uh ended up going to New York for a few months in between 49 - > school and uh university and basically never left and ended 50 - > up staying in New York for 10 years. 51 - > And I was starting to work in uh I did a little bit of work in 52 - > non-profits and a little bit of work in corporate comms, but was 53 - > always had a restaurant job on the side just to uh help pay 54 - > rent. 55 - > And the restaurant scene in this was sort of uh would have been 56 - > 2007, 2008, and the restaurant scene in New York at the time, I 57 - > mean it's always exciting, but at that point for some reason it 58 - > was sort of uh early era of um ITA and all these media 59 - > publications, and consumers starting to get a little bit 60 - > more uh informed and uh engaged with the world of hospitality 61 - > and restaurants, um, and it was just a really, really exciting 62 - > time.

63 - > And I found myself spending less and less time at the jobs I was 64 - > actually supposed to be in and more and more time at the 65 - > restaurants. 66 - > And I had a very charismatic general manager at the time, um, 67 - > who I'm still friends with to this day, uh, who helped me 68 - > understand that you could build a career, not just have a 69 - > part-time job in hospitality. 70 - > And I think for a lot of us who came up in our teens or early 71 - > 20s in the industry, it was always something you did on the 72 - > site.

73 - > Um, and that changed my perspective, and I then ended up 74 - > working with him with uh uh the nomad in New York. 75 - > I think uh we've talked about that in the past, which was part 76 - > of the 11 Mass and Park group, and that was a real um baptism 77 - > of fire and some uh fantastic experiences there. 78 - > Uh then I had my own business, which was a hospitality program 79 - > connecting restaurants and regulars in New York. 80 - > Um, it was a startup uh which we ran for about four and a half 81 - > years, and then COVID happened.

82 - > We actually launched our London program in uh the end of January 83 - > 2020. 84 - > And of course, so six, eight weeks later, the whole world 85 - > shut up shop. 86 - > And um, sadly we weren't able to sort of navigate our way through 87 - > it, so we shut that business. 88 - > And then I moved back to London in 21 and went over and joined 89 - > our friends at JKS.

90 - > Um and I was with them for about a year and a bit, helping them 91 - > with some strategy and development coming out of COVID. 92 - > And then I left and met my now business partner, James. 93 - > James and I set up High Note Hospitality, of which the Nave 94 - > of Clubs and One Club Row are our first concepts and ventures 95 - > under High Note. 96 - > Um and as you know, uh we're uh eagerly looking at some future 97 - > sites with you and um uh across London and see what we can do 98 - > next.

99 - > But um, yeah, it's been a bit of a full circle journey, sort of 100 - > out to the States and then back to London and opening something 101 - > up not too far down the road from where I really grew up. 102 - > SPEAKER_00: That's brilliant, and um I think influences from 103 - > New York is fantastic, and so often America is ahead of the UK 104 - > in so many things. 105 - > And one thing I'd like to home in on that you've touched upon 106 - > that that really resonates with me was um the chappie, your 107 - > mentor uh at the Nomad um explaining to you that I'm 108 - > calling him your mentor.

109 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I mean as long as he as long as he 110 - > never hears that. 111 - > SPEAKER_00: I don't know, overblown, but I think what what 112 - > um what I find very curious was them explaining to you that 113 - > hospitality can be more on a part-time job and a career, etc. 114 - > And of course, I'm gonna suggest that they were ahead of us in 115 - > hospitality terms at that time. 116 - > Um and I think in the context of today it's that point, isn't it, 117 - > that hospitality can be a career, can be a great business.

118 - > And you know, I without getting overly political, I don't 119 - > necessarily want to drag us there too quickly or at all 120 - > necessarily for this conversation, but you know, I I 121 - > think we're still on that journey as UK PLC perhaps in 122 - > educating hospitality, in showing people from an early age 123 - > at school, you know, could it should it be on agendas, should 124 - > it be taught at schools, let alone universities, you know, is 125 - > this something you're interested in?

126 - > Because it's such a prolific and dominant sector. 127 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's sort of two there's a 128 - > couple of sides of it that I find interesting, which is on 129 - > the one hand, I think you know, I sort of, if it were up to me, 130 - > I'd have a sort of a mandatory um uh thing that if you know 131 - > before the time of you leaving school, you have to have spent 132 - > some time in a customer service role, whether it's in 133 - > hospitality or or retail or whatever the case may be.

134 - > I think um it's such a powerful thing to know what it means to 135 - > look after people. 136 - > Um and it's it's a humbling experience when you're a cocky 137 - > teenager or you know, overconfident, or or or somewhat 138 - > um shy, um an introverted uh uh teenager or someone in your in 139 - > your young 20s. 140 - > Um and I and I look at my friends who have gone into 141 - > different sectors or whatever, and those who have had some sort 142 - > of experience in customer service, it it it informs the 143 - > way that they engage with their clients in any sector, and it 144 - > absolutely informs the way they behave in restaurants and bars, 145 - > and they're always much more uh um uh empathetic and and kind, 146 - > which I think is really important.

147 - > Um, so I think already there's something really you know 148 - > powerful there. 149 - > And then to your point, I think you know, any sector you that 150 - > you can think of, so whether it's media, whether it's 151 - > accounting, whether it's um graphic design, whether it's 152 - > tech, exists in hospitality. 153 - > So, you know, sometimes people sort of think that it's just 154 - > waiting tables, cooking food, serving drinks. 155 - > But you know, we have accountants and we have graphic 156 - > designers and we have people who do our website, and we have we 157 - > work with amazing software companies who do all our data 158 - > analysis and run our reservations platforms, and we 159 - > have brilliant people on the social media side.

160 - > So, you know, it doesn't matter what your interests in, you can 161 - > find that role somewhere within the hospitality scope. 162 - > Um, and and I think that's something that doesn't get 163 - > spoken enough about. 164 - > And when you read about in the papers, you know, people often 165 - > talking about, you know, that there should be more support and 166 - > more encouragement and that it's a fantastic gateway for um 167 - > particularly young people, I think it also doesn't get spoken 168 - > enough about, you know, that there are all these other ways 169 - > of engaging in the profession.

170 - > Um, and you know, on the real estate side, um, on the 171 - > architectural side, on the interior design side. 172 - > Um finance, yeah, you go on and on and on. 173 - > You name it, you name it. 174 - > Um and and also it's really, you know, even here within our team, 175 - > and we're only a year old here, but you know, we've had people 176 - > move from kitchen to front of house.

177 - > We've had uh we've got a fantastic young woman who does 178 - > all of our events, and she started with us as a waiter, but 179 - > she showed some interest in the event side, and now she runs a 180 - > huge event spitness, and it wasn't something that she'd done 181 - > before. 182 - > And you know, so there are there are all these opportunities for 183 - > evolution uh evolution and development, which I think is 184 - > really fantastic. 185 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, we're champions.

186 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 187 - > SPEAKER_00: Let's hope somebody's listening out there. 188 - > Yeah. 189 - > Um we just have to keep going and championing you know the 190 - > sector.

191 - > Let's talk about you and James, because um it'd be lovely to 192 - > interview all three at once. 193 - > I've only got two microphones, unfortunately. 194 - > Yeah. 195 - > Um, but how obviously James is is quite a character, yeah, as 196 - > you are, um, in the sector.

197 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 198 - > SPEAKER_00: How did you guys meet or what was the James and I 199 - > were set up? 200 - > SPEAKER_01: We were set up by my sister. 201 - > My uh see if you can follow this one, Ted.

202 - > Um, my sister's childhood best friend married James's childhood 203 - > best friend. 204 - > And my sister was the maid of honour at their wedding, and 205 - > James was the best man. 206 - > And so they all sort of got to know each other. 207 - > And when I moved back to London, they thought it would be a good 208 - > idea for me and James to meet.

209 - > And of course, we uh got on quite quickly, and um uh you 210 - > know, we'd been for some coffees and bits and pieces. 211 - > James, uh as you know, uh, has had an amazing career in London 212 - > in the industry across all sorts of different verticals within 213 - > hospitality. 214 - > So um starting off with these railway arches, uh Peckham 215 - > Springs down in Peckham, then Frank's rooftop in Peckham, the 216 - > Campbell Arms, then he's got these Delhi's Gladwells and 217 - > Greensmiths, uh Bambi, this wine bar, restaurant, listening bar 218 - > up in London Fields.

219 - > I mean, he's a he's he's um he's a force. 220 - > And James got shown this building. 221 - > James often gets shown difficult spaces. 222 - > Um so whether it's railway arches or 10,000 square foot um 223 - > uh uh parking lots or you know uh the delis in an old bank.

224 - > Um and this building had been sitting empty for two years, and 225 - > it had previously been Le Trois Garçons, which was this iconic 226 - > uh restaurant and home in East London. 227 - > And the landlord wanted someone who was going to activate the 228 - > entire building, and since Le Trois Garçons, it had only ever 229 - > been the ground floor that anyone had really done something 230 - > with. 231 - > And so James uh got us to come and have a look at it, and we'd 232 - > been catching up and he said, Come have a look at it with me.

233 - > And and then he said, Sort of, would you want to do it 234 - > together? 235 - > And my initial impression was absolutely not, because it just 236 - > seemed like this mad project. 237 - > Um, but he's very persuasive, old James. 238 - > And what we started to talk about was the idea that um I was 239 - > less interested in doing a one-off project with him.

240 - > But we were both at sort of interesting points of our 241 - > careers, and James had been doing lots of different bits 242 - > with lots of different people, and I think was keen to maybe 243 - > consolidate some of his projects into sort of one group that 244 - > would keep building things out. 245 - > Um, he's since sold his share in Campbell Arms and Franks to 246 - > allow him to sort of focus a little bit more on on HighNote 247 - > and some of the things we're doing.

248 - > And I really like the idea of uh working with um uh with someone 249 - > with a different skill set, different perspective, someone 250 - > who really understood the London market, um, and starting with 251 - > one thing, but with a view that if it was to work to to go 252 - > further, um and it's been great, and um uh I think we share so 253 - > many of the same sort of high-level values and ambitions, 254 - > um, but we're coming at it from a very different uh set of 255 - > experiences.

256 - > James is far more um experienced with just brick and mortar sites 257 - > in London. 258 - > I've never opened a brick and mortar site of my own in London 259 - > or New York. 260 - > I've helped run things for other people, and I had this startup, 261 - > but it was a tech-based business. 262 - > Um, so James is fantastic and just understanding all that 263 - > comes with that.

264 - > Um, and then you know, my focus is a little bit more from the 265 - > fine dining side, and his is from a little bit more of a 266 - > casual side, so we help balance that out and try and hopefully 267 - > find something that sits in the middle. 268 - > Um, and um we've had a lot of fun, and so far, knock on wood, 269 - > things have been working quite well. 270 - > So um, like I said, we're you know, we don't want to run 271 - > before we walk, but um the goal is remains to to look to to do a 272 - > few more things.

273 - > Yeah. 274 - > SPEAKER_00: Um we've not mentioned labor of clubs too 275 - > much downstairs. 276 - > SPEAKER_01: Tell us a bit more about that just for the uh So 277 - > the building was a pub for a hundred years, from 1880 to 278 - > 1980, then it was a squat for ten years, and then it was Le 279 - > Trois Garçons for about ten years, and then it was Dirty 280 - > Bones, which was a very casual concept for a few years, and 281 - > then it was sitting empty. 282 - > When we first saw the building, it you know, there was there was 283 - > an immediate pull to turn the ground floor back into a pub for 284 - > the first time in 30 odd years.

285 - > Um we've brought back the original name, the knave of 286 - > clubs, which we've been able to trace back all the way to 1880. 287 - > We've got some of the original tiling in there, which is 288 - > incredible. 289 - > We found these amazing photos that I've shown you from 1976 290 - > that we've got up in the pub, um, of of people, you know, 291 - > having points and hanging out there, which was amazing. 292 - > Um, so that was that was uh clear, and we knew that that's 293 - > something that we wanted to do on the ground floor.

294 - > And in this part of Shoreditch, there aren't a huge amount of 295 - > independent pubs. 296 - > Um there's some sort of more uh corporate um uh sort of pubs 297 - > down towards Liverpool Street with very like after office work 298 - > or sort of a bit more party pub on a weekend, and then you get 299 - > the Resi pubs in sort of fancy parts of Hankney in the Bovar 300 - > going that way. 301 - > And it felt like we could do something that felt um a little 302 - > bit more considered, but without feeling overly precious in this 303 - > little corner um of Shoreditch.

304 - > And and again it's been great to just see um lots of uh people 305 - > who live and work in the neighborhood start to make it 306 - > their local. 307 - > And then um and then the the thing was always what do you do 308 - > with the first floor and the second floor? 309 - > And we're lucky that we've got that separate entrance. 310 - > So we really liked this idea of of sort of having a completely 311 - > different brand.

312 - > And uh, you know, I guess it's easy to say that because I'd 313 - > been for I'd come from New York, and I I can't quite remember 314 - > where we originally came up with this idea of something a bit 315 - > more New York inspired. 316 - > Um, but what we what we'd spoken about, and the way James and I 317 - > from the beginning have spoken about what we want to do with 318 - > Hyino, and you know this because we've spoken to you about it, is 319 - > this idea of finding neighborhoods we believe in, 320 - > buildings that we think have untapped potential, and then we 321 - > design a concept to the space.

322 - > So it's not that we were sitting around going, okay, we want to 323 - > do a pub with rotisserie chicken, and we want to do a New 324 - > York-inspired restaurant. 325 - > We found the space and and then we worked with that. 326 - > And um the thing that we we felt that Shoreditch was missing and 327 - > where there was an opportunity was dining that was a bit more 328 - > experience-led. 329 - > I think Shoreditch has some of the best restaurants in London.

330 - > I mean, lots of places that we're lucky to call friends and 331 - > that we really admire. 332 - > But the focus has historically been what's on the plate and 333 - > what's in the glass at the experience of sort at the 334 - > expense of sort of broader experience. 335 - > And I think if you're really looking for somewhere that's 336 - > more relaxed and more just a fun night out, often you found 337 - > yourself sort of heading in towards Central and Soho. 338 - > And and we thought there was an opportunity to do something that 339 - > was a bit more accessible in terms of menu.

340 - > Um, so you know, we're not aiming for Michelin stars and 341 - > we're not trying to blow minds. 342 - > We're very proud of our food and it's delicious. 343 - > It's the best of the classics, it's sort of a brasserie menu, 344 - > but something that anyone can find, something they want to 345 - > eat. 346 - > It's not particularly challenging, and it's not, you 347 - > know, you can come with your parents, you can come on a date, 348 - > you can come with your colleagues, you can come with a 349 - > fussy eater, and so on.

350 - > And and then somewhere that just felt really fun and where you 351 - > felt really looked after. 352 - > So we put a ton of effort into the team and the hospitality and 353 - > the lighting and the design, and we have live piano and um the 354 - > the entire restaurant upstairs started with the idea of seating 355 - > at the bar, which comes from sort of style of dining in New 356 - > York, where the best seats are always at the bar, and that 357 - > gives a little bit of extra theatre.

358 - > Um, so that's been really fun, and then it's and and and it's 359 - > that tricky thing in pub buildings, which is how do you 360 - > get people to go up the stairs? 361 - > Because the reality is first floor, second floor, you know, 362 - > often become like overflow or private dining rooms. 363 - > Everyone wants to be in the action in a pub. 364 - > So this way we've actually been you know quite lucky that we've 365 - > given a completely different reason to want to go up the 366 - > stairs.

367 - > Um, and then the private dining room on the top floor has made a 368 - > lot of sense. 369 - > And what's really nice is you now see people who will come in 370 - > for a pint on a Tuesday in the pub, and then they might come 371 - > have a dinner upstairs in the restaurant, and then if it's 372 - > their wedding anniversary or big birthday or something, they 373 - > might host up here, and so it's sort of become we joke that it's 374 - > almost like a hotel without rooms or a members' club without 375 - > membership, and people sort of explore the building.

376 - > SPEAKER_00: Um it's like an ecosystem. 377 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 378 - > SPEAKER_00: I remember when I first came to One Club Row, and 379 - > you have done brilliantly in creating its own identity and 380 - > completely separate, like you say, but also um how it 381 - > interacts with each other, so you you you might go into one 382 - > and another and both even on the same night. 383 - > Yeah.

384 - > Um but what I I did feel wrongly or rightly, in a really positive 385 - > way, reminiscent of Le Caprice in its heyday, because as you 386 - > were saying, the bar dining, which was very forward at that 387 - > point, I'm not sure how many people enjoyed dining at the bar 388 - > at that in those years gone by. 389 - > They were probably seen as the cheap seats. 390 - > I'm sure. 391 - > SPEAKER_01: Um we were we were worried here, which is in the 392 - > beginning, it was mainly Americans and Europeans who 393 - > would choose to sit at the bar or industry friends who really 394 - > like it.

395 - > And it's taken a while for the Brits, if if I'm honest, to 396 - > really engage with the bar seats. 397 - > And now we've got regulars who only sit at the bar, you know, 398 - > he'll around the corner and really enjoy that. 399 - > But I can imagine um it's back in the day. 400 - > Back in the day, it was it was probably really not seen as 401 - > desirable at all.

402 - > SPEAKER_00: No, but a lot a lot of touch points in terms of 403 - > essence and character. 404 - > I see similarities there in that elevated dining. 405 - > But you know, used to be able to go there in t-shirt and jeans, 406 - > which in those days was like, you know, who you know, who are 407 - > you? 408 - > What are you doing?

409 - > kind of thing, but you could go there however you wanted. 410 - > Yeah. 411 - > Um, so a lot of similarities. 412 - > I've got to ask you, and I haven't asked you.

413 - > Yeah, what's your what's your best-selling dishes? 414 - > And I've I could I'd love to write down what I think the 415 - > answer's gonna be. 416 - > SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm sure it won't be a huge surprise. 417 - > SPEAKER_00: Um might be to some.

418 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 419 - > Um the burger does incredibly well. 420 - > Burgers always do well on any menu. 421 - > We've been very lucky that we've you know been in all those top 422 - > burger lists and all those kinds of things.

423 - > I always say about those lists, by the way, that they're all 424 - > very silly, but if you're not in them, you're furious. 425 - > You know, I don't we don't take them very seriously. 426 - > But if you're if you're not in them, then you're always then 427 - > you're always angry. 428 - > But but you know, it's nice to be in those sorts of things.

429 - > We've got a schnitzel um with Source Mutad and Gorgonzola that 430 - > also flies um for mains. 431 - > Um and and then we you know we've got a uh a Mulfrit and 432 - > we've got a you know, we do a fantastic ribeye for two, and 433 - > you know, the classics do very well. 434 - > And then, you know, um from the starters, um we've got a couple 435 - > of crudos that do very well, and um what else does very well? 436 - > Uh we've got some fantastic snacks, the scallops are 437 - > delicious.

438 - > I think we had those when uh when we had lunch. 439 - > But um yeah, again, it's it's a pretty um uh it's a pretty 440 - > legible menu. 441 - > Yeah, the feeling. 442 - > Yeah, and and and there's no there's no ingredients on there 443 - > that you wouldn't that you know, everyone can understand what 444 - > every dish is about.

445 - > And again, I think that was something you hear a lot at the 446 - > moment about um old school hospitality or restaurants 447 - > returning to the classics. 448 - > That there's a there's been a lot recently in the last sort of 449 - > six, eight months, of Italian restaurants are having a 450 - > comeback, and you see some brilliant people opening up 451 - > around town, and and we're more in that sort of I guess French 452 - > New York y tradition. 453 - > New York obviously steals a lot from Paris and we've stolen from 454 - > them, and um but I think you are seeing uh from a from a uh um 455 - > from a dining culture perspective, people enjoying 456 - > being able to go to places for the fun of dining out.

457 - > Rather than for the pursuit of sort of some sort of culinary 458 - > experience. 459 - > And I think that's changing a little bit. 460 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, this is this is really on my mind at the 461 - > moment. 462 - > I am talking to loads of people about it and and listening to 463 - > people because, you know, as Luke Johnson said when I 464 - > interviewed him not that long ago, you know, don't forget it's 465 - > discretionary.

466 - > You know, you can have an average burger at home or a good 467 - > burger at home. 468 - > You can have anything at home. 469 - > And even that is discretionary because you could cook yourself 470 - > yourself. 471 - > You know, so so you know, to take yourself out to hospitality 472 - > moment experience is absolutely discretionary.

473 - > And sometimes maybe we went for an age where that maybe got a 474 - > bit lost in the wash. 475 - > And I think that's very much at the forefront of operators' 476 - > minds again and consumers' minds. 477 - > And the stats show that people are going out less but spending 478 - > more, and that clearly indicates that they'd rather save up or 479 - > save up or just spend more on those moments, experiences that 480 - > they are going to savour. 481 - > And whether that's an Instagram moment or a birthday party or a 482 - > you know, and I I think that's where where the world sits at 483 - > the moment, certainly where London sits at the moment.

484 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, you know, there have been a few 485 - > things that have been uh sort of wake-up calls coming back to 486 - > London, you know. 487 - > So I moved back, it's been five years now. 488 - > That when I first moved back, I thought some of the differences 489 - > were operator-led, and I've I've since changed my view on that. 490 - > I think it's more um consumer-led.

491 - > And I'll give you an example on that, which is I I at least sort 492 - > of when I first moved back about five years ago, and I think 493 - > already you started to see more of a change on that front too, 494 - > which is, and I look at friends of mine and so on. 495 - > So often I I felt that people were dining out to eat food that 496 - > they couldn't cook at home. 497 - > So they were pursuing um, you know, whether it was fantastic 498 - > Thai food or fantastic Japanese food or fantastic Lebanese food 499 - > or you know, um something that they and and so actually the 500 - > idea of going out to eat pasta, which everyone can make at home, 501 - > was sort of seen as a waste of money.

502 - > And and now what I think you've started to see is people dining 503 - > out more as a way to have a fun night out or as a way to 504 - > socialize. 505 - > I think in New York, dining out has historically been more about 506 - > a place to socialize and social currency and being in the right 507 - > rooms, and much less about what's on the plate. 508 - > And and I think that when people talk about what's coming over 509 - > from New York, I think it's that style of dining, which is let's 510 - > go for a fun night out, and the food needs to be good, but it's 511 - > the the room, the space, the people that needs to be amazing.

512 - > Whereas in the past, it used to be, you know, and again, we 513 - > live, you know, we're sitting in the middle of Shoreditch right 514 - > now. 515 - > You know, 10 years ago, the the the classic shortage restaurant 516 - > was very much in the school of St. 517 - > John, right? 518 - > No music, white walls, no decoration, one plate, one one 519 - > or two ingredients on the plate, and and you're there, you know, 520 - > almost it's a it's uh it's almost like an exhibition, 521 - > right?

522 - > And and again, I say this with all the love in the world, I 523 - > love going to St. 524 - > John. 525 - > But I think that's what you're starting to see as a bit of a 526 - > difference, which is people beginning to enjoy going out for 527 - > the sake of being out and about, um, rather than just to go and 528 - > try something that would be impossible to make uh at home on 529 - > a Wednesday night. 530 - > SPEAKER_00: And how were you seeing um in terms of there's 531 - > this debate that's been going on recently, not too recently, 532 - > about earlier dining, later dining.

533 - > Have you had learnings from you're smiling? 534 - > I wish everyone could see your massive grin. 535 - > Because um might have touched upon something here. 536 - > I don't know.

537 - > SPEAKER_01: No, it's funny. 538 - > I um I don't know what whether there, you know, again, I've 539 - > only got really five years of of references here. 540 - > Out of everything else I just hear from friends in the 541 - > industry. 542 - > Um but even in what I can say is even in New York, talking to 543 - > friends there or visiting, late night dining has stripped back, 544 - > and and earlier is now more prime.

545 - > So it used to be that prime time in New York was sort of 7.30 to 546 - > 9 o'clock, and it and I'm hearing now it's more like 6 to 547 - > 8.30. 548 - > Um, and I I think this is a post-COVID phenomenon, which is 549 - > um people uh happier at home, they've uh they've sort of got 550 - > more comfortable being at home.

551 - > Um I think New York has changed in lots of different ways in 552 - > terms of who's going out when, um, and uh you know, and that's 553 - > a New York phenomenon. 554 - > I think in London, look, I I struggle with friends who aren't 555 - > in the industry. 556 - > I struggle to, you know, if I book a table somewhere at 557 - > quarter past eight on a Thursday, I struggle to get 558 - > people to come with me because they say that's a late table on 559 - > a on a Thursday.

560 - > I mean, it's just it's it's mad. 561 - > And if if you look at our book, I would say the majority of 562 - > people dining nine to ten o'clock with us, our last 563 - > seating is nine forty-five, ten, are European or American. 564 - > Very few Brits dining after nine o'clock, particularly during the 565 - > week. 566 - > You might get the odd person on a Friday, Saturday.

567 - > But 9:30, 9.45 on a Tuesday, Wednesday is all Spanish, 568 - > Italian, French, American. 569 - > Um and and then on the early side, um, yeah, I I I don't 570 - > know. 571 - > We again we're very lucky to be busy.

572 - > So we um and we've only got 60 seats, and so we're lucky to 573 - > fill them up. 574 - > Um but my sense of London, and again, this is a consumer 575 - > mentality, is uh I think there's still a thing from a lot of 576 - > Brits, which is if they can't get the time they want, they'll 577 - > go somewhere else or they won't go out at all. 578 - > And you know, um we're very lucky that we've got a wait list 579 - > every night, right? 580 - > And there are days where the wait list can get in excess of 581 - > sort of 250, 300 people, which is phenomenal and very 582 - > flattering and very exciting.

583 - > But 50% of the people on that wait list are all asking to come 584 - > in at 7.30 pm, right? 585 - > And if you offer them six or you offer them 8.30, okay, some of 586 - > them will take it, but some of them won't.

587 - > They want their 7.30, or they'll go some or they'll find 588 - > something else. 589 - > And whereas in the States, the the supply and demand curves 590 - > there, people are so excited to dine out that they'll eagerly 591 - > come early or late if it's an opportunity to actually go visit 592 - > that place. 593 - > Um, and they'll fit in plans around that.

594 - > Uh so I think that's still something in London where um uh 595 - > I I was never around for the heyday of late-night dining in 596 - > London, so I haven't seen it. 597 - > So the idea that it will it come back, was it ever there? 598 - > I'm not entirely sure. 599 - > Um, but uh but yeah, otherwise I think that continues to be this 600 - > thing that people are actually quite inflexible on timing.

601 - > SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I think I mean I can vouch for people 602 - > going out later for for dining, that's for sure. 603 - > I mean, you know, and Jeremy King was smashing it in in that 604 - > arena. 605 - > Back in the good old days of Caprice and the Woolsley and 606 - > Yeah, and I think even so more the one by um Piccadilly Circus. 607 - > I'm trying to think of the one there.

608 - > Um Zadell or Zadell, yeah. 609 - > Yeah, I think that in particular. 610 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 611 - > I guess that's also really central to near all the 612 - > theatres.

613 - > SPEAKER_00: Pre-imposed. 614 - > SPEAKER_01: Pre-imposed. 615 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I and I think that that that I I'm 616 - > guessing still in Covent Garden that post-theatre event must 617 - > still be strong. 618 - > Uh I should know for sure.

619 - > Uh I'll have to speak to a few friends and just double check on 620 - > that. 621 - > But I I think there was always that idea of either eating 622 - > before or after a show, whatever that show may or have been. 623 - > Yeah. 624 - > Uh, and that was always one of the crazy dynamics of of Covent 625 - > Garden.

626 - > SPEAKER_01: But the crazy to me, the the crazy thing is is that 627 - > we talk about nine o'clock or nine thirty as late night 628 - > dining. 629 - > You know, in the good old days of New York, late night dining 630 - > was 11:30 midnight. 631 - > You know, you used to be able to go, I mean, there's this this 632 - > place, I don't I don't know if you um Blue Ribbon Brassery, 633 - > which was I don't know if you've ever been in New York, which was 634 - > the I mean they've they're still around, they've been around for 635 - > 30 odd years.

636 - > And they I think they've just scaled it back a little bit, but 637 - > they famously used to be open till 4am, and you could get a 638 - > full lobster dinner at 4am. 639 - > Um white tablecloths, absolutely brilliant. 640 - > And if you try to walk in at 3 in the morning, you'd wait for a 641 - > table. 642 - > They would you they would have reservations at 3, 3.

30 in the 643 - > morning. 644 - > And I think they've now scaled it back to 2am because late 645 - > night dining has slid off a little bit. 646 - > But um still late, but not so late. 647 - > Yeah, I mean it's still and all of Keith McNally's joints used 648 - > to serve food until 1am.

649 - > And I've heard that those are all coming back to sort of more 650 - > like 11 kitchen closing, more like 11:30 midnight. 651 - > But again, you used to be able to go to Manette. 652 - > I I remember going to Manetta Tavern at midnight and waiting 653 - > for a seat of the bar. 654 - > SPEAKER_00: That surely have an impact on their turnover and um 655 - > and all all other parts of the matrix of running a business.

656 - > SPEAKER_01: Yep. 657 - > Um But again, New York is lucky in that way that uh the supply 658 - > and demand dynamics for these places that are embedded now in 659 - > uh in the dining rosters. 660 - > I mean, you just uh you take take some of the the the English 661 - > guys who've started going out there, right? 662 - > Obviously JKS have very successfully um opened 663 - > Ambassadors Club out there.

664 - > Um I believe De Schuma working on something out there as well. 665 - > Hawksmore. 666 - > Umksmore, of course, yeah. 667 - > Um if you ask those those guys, they're used to seeing wait 668 - > lists in London, but it's 10x.

669 - > I mean, well again, um it's it's I think it's really opened eyes 670 - > um to just understand. 671 - > So again, you might you might lose a little bit at the at that 672 - > super late night, but you just there's no still there's no such 673 - > thing as empty seats out there. 674 - > SPEAKER_00: And what about um average spend? 675 - > Yeah, uh this has almost turned into a kind of USA chat, but 676 - > it's always good to to to to learn from your experiences, um, 677 - > because I I do understand the spend is much higher.

678 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's got out of control. 679 - > I mean, I I was there uh November most recently, and it's 680 - > I mean, yeah, it's outrageous. 681 - > Um but um but I think what's interesting in the US, and this 682 - > is another one of my sort of um uh takeaways in that dynamic 683 - > between London and New York, is is the difference between price 684 - > and value and how consumers engage with that. 685 - > I think I continue to think that in New York um there there 686 - > remains some level of price sensitivity as everywhere, but 687 - > um there's a real appreciation of value.

688 - > So people are prepared to spend large amounts of money to be in 689 - > the right room or be in the right restaurant or try the most 690 - > exciting food. 691 - > Whereas in London, I think price and value continue to be too 692 - > closely attached, and there are certain uh thresholds after 693 - > which people sort of write off a place. 694 - > And so for us, we've worked really carefully on the pricing 695 - > at one club row, which is we and and and you know the style of 696 - > the restaurant, we're very happy for people to come in and just 697 - > have a burger and a martini, and that's their quick, easy dinner.

698 - > And we want it to be the kind of place you don't have to come and 699 - > have a two-hour meal, you can just pop in and out. 700 - > Um, but even if you were to have sort of a full experience, you 701 - > know, snacks, starters, mains, dessert, a cocktail, shared 702 - > bottle of wine, and so on, we've worked quite hard to keep that 703 - > around the sort of 85 to 90 pound ahead if you go all out. 704 - > Yeah, you can spend a bit more if you go crazy on wine. 705 - > But it was really important to us, and that includes um 706 - > service.

707 - > It's really important to us to keep things under that£100 a 708 - > head for the average person coming in. 709 - > Because my sense is as soon as you go over that, it becomes 710 - > special occasion in London. 711 - > It suddenly becomes a reason that you wouldn't think of going 712 - > on a Tuesday-Wednesday night. 713 - > It feels more like a Friday-Saturday night 714 - > experience.

715 - > Um, and I think we look at some of our friends in the industry 716 - > who we think are very smart in the way in which they've set up 717 - > their menus and appeal to their audiences. 718 - > And one of the ones that I always refer to is Dave Carter, 719 - > who's got Manteca and Smokestack and Omer and Agora and so on. 720 - > And I think you look at his menus and they're so 721 - > approachable and accessible on price point. 722 - > And yeah, you might still end up spending you know 80 quid a 723 - > head, but you you you there's no there's never any sticker shock 724 - > when the bill drops.

725 - > I think that's that's something that you've always got to avoid 726 - > as an operator. 727 - > But in in London, I think people continue to have their 728 - > thresholds beyond which yeah, no, that's suddenly a different 729 - > territory. 730 - > That's an anniversary meal or that's a special occasion meal. 731 - > Um, whereas in New York, people are prepared to pay the extra if 732 - > they feel they're getting something special from it.

733 - > Um, and also in New York, New York is a culture where people 734 - > are earning a lot more. 735 - > And part of the reason for being in New York is to spend the 736 - > money in New York. 737 - > You know, like if we're gonna live in this crazy place in 738 - > these small apartments in this mad city, let's make the most of 739 - > the amenities, which is all the bars and restaurants and social 740 - > life. 741 - > So let's go put our money to work.

742 - > Um but yeah, no, I think there is a difference there. 743 - > SPEAKER_00: And what do you what do you feel as though this year 744 - > has to offer? 745 - > What do what do you see as the challenges? 746 - > What do you see as the positives?

747 - > For us or for the industry? 748 - > Start where you want, start where you finish where you want. 749 - > SPEAKER_01: Start where I want, finish where I want. 750 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've obviously you've had a great 751 - > you've had a great run.

752 - > Yeah. 753 - > Um do you are you seeing you know the rest of 2026 on track? 754 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've we we're very lucky that so we've we're 755 - > just over a year old. 756 - > Um and we're very lucky that it's gone better than we could 757 - > have hoped.

758 - > Um and we're lucky that we've got a really strong team and a 759 - > really strong um growing group of regulars. 760 - > Um, I think of course, as you go from year one, you you know, you 761 - > start to lose some of your shine. 762 - > And and so um, you know, last year we were lucky to be on all 763 - > the lists and things that you need to be and on Instagram and 764 - > hype and reviews and all this kind of stuff, which just help 765 - > drive attention and and demand.

766 - > And this year it's about you know being a place that people 767 - > want to keep coming back to because there are new hotspots 768 - > of darlings of the industry, of course. 769 - > Um, and it's also you know, year one is a little bit building the 770 - > plane while you're flying it and a little bit of survival, and 771 - > you're moving through the seasons for the first time ever, 772 - > so you don't really know what to expect. 773 - > Um, Christmas, for example, we were very lucky that it caught 774 - > us by surprise at just how busy it was across the building.

775 - > You know, we we we'd hoped it would be busy, but it sort of 776 - > surpassed, and in some ways, maybe we weren't as prepared for 777 - > it, and that won't happen again because we sort of you know know 778 - > what it can be. 779 - > Um so this year is really about sort of uh uh stabilizing and uh 780 - > setting in place stronger foundations for this place to 781 - > just keep operating at the highest level possible and to 782 - > free us up to begin to look at at further sites.

783 - > Um we're we're broadly optimistic at the moment. 784 - > I know you know you read in the papers whether it's what's going 785 - > on in the Middle East and or ZEMPIC or staffing or uh 786 - > government uh uh support, um, there's a lot of um uh suggested 787 - > anxiety in the industry. 788 - > Um we're lucky that for the time being things feel strong. 789 - > Um and uh I think we're lucky because we were able to the our 790 - > model is such that we've built a product in this space in this 791 - > neighborhood that we think had staying power for this space and 792 - > neighborhood rather than we had an existing concept that we 793 - > needed to work in the building.

794 - > Um, and I think that's something that allows us a bit of extra 795 - > flex and slack um and um allows us to be a little bit more 796 - > resilient um looking forward. 797 - > But we're really excited for you know um for year two in this 798 - > building. 799 - > Uh we're sitting in our PDR that we're refurbing at the moment. 800 - > Um it only came online in September, it came on a little 801 - > bit late, so we're really excited to get this going.

802 - > Um and and really uh fairly tidy to my eye, but uh good. 803 - > We'll come back in a couple of weeks and it should look a lot 804 - > better. 805 - > Okay. 806 - > Um and um and yeah, and then look, every year brings new 807 - > opportunities and new challenges.

808 - > And um uh but we're fortunate to have uh a solid team in place. 809 - > Um and I think the thing that we're proudest of is that we 810 - > invested very heavily early on, and we were joking about this 811 - > earlier, about some of what we do around guest relations. 812 - > That uh we we always said to our team in the very beginning, the 813 - > only measure of success for for us, as far as for our front of 814 - > house team, there's only two things that we measure as 815 - > success, and we talk about this in briefing all the time, right?

816 - > Um I'm not what I don't want the front-of-house team to worry 817 - > about what's going in the till or or or uh how much uh we took 818 - > this day or this week or any of those sorts of things. 819 - > There's only two things I I want them to think about. 820 - > One is, did every single person who came into the space that 821 - > they were working in, whether it was the pub, the restaurant, or 822 - > the PDR, have such a good time that they think about coming 823 - > back?

824 - > And did they have such a good time that they'd think about 825 - > telling a friend or a colleague the next day? 826 - > And if we can answer yes to those two questions, the rest 827 - > will come, the commercials will come, and the business will 828 - > continue to succeed. 829 - > And so we work really hard on trying to imbue a guest 830 - > experience that people connect with, and then we try to make it 831 - > really easy for people to come back. 832 - > So this is the other thing that we put in place, which I think 833 - > is maybe a little unusual with One Club Row.

834 - > We're very lucky it was a hyped restaurant, and it it's a tricky 835 - > booking as happens, right? 836 - > And um and so um, but if you've come in and had a really 837 - > fantastic time, I there's nothing worse than going in and 838 - > finding a really great restaurant, and you can never 839 - > bloody get back in. 840 - > I mean it's just infuriating, right? 841 - > How do you get back in?

842 - > Well, our team go and and are are um uh charged to go and 843 - > build as many connections as they can every night in the 844 - > dining room. 845 - > And if someone's having a really good time, give them an email 846 - > address that and flag them in our system as someone who's had 847 - > a really good time so that we can try and help them get back 848 - > in. 849 - > And it might be that they ask for something quite, you know, 850 - > six people at 7.30 on a Friday night with four hours notice.

851 - > That's not gonna be possible. 852 - > But if you if you get in touch with us and we're able to make 853 - > something work, we keep backs and tables every night for 854 - > regulars and uh walk-ins and friends of the restaurant and so 855 - > on, not as a way to over-privilege that group or 856 - > make the place more exclusive, but just to make it easier to be 857 - > a regular. 858 - > Um, and for me, that's the thing that a lot of restaurants I see 859 - > start doing too late in the game.

860 - > You start trying to do that in year three, you've missed out on 861 - > a huge audience of people who were part of your beginning. 862 - > And we've got people now who are once a week, twice a week 863 - > regulars, which is enormous. 864 - > I'd say on any given night in one club row, somewhere between 865 - > 15 and 20% of our room are people who've been in before, 866 - > which is a huge feat in the first year. 867 - > And that's something that we take a lot of pride in.

868 - > And I think that's the kind of strategy that um will hopefully 869 - > allow us to remain relevant as we move away from the spotlight 870 - > of sort of a new opening. 871 - > SPEAKER_00: That's brilliant. 872 - > I love it. 873 - > I mean, I'm gonna say I don't know how relevant it is, but I 874 - > love what you've just said.

875 - > Um that's definitely gonna be around a sound bite that I'll 876 - > promote online. 877 - > But um I always remember back in the day I was wearing con 878 - > started to wear contact lenses, and it occurred to me, what a 879 - > brilliant business. 880 - > They were disposable ones. 881 - > Yes.

882 - > I thought to myself, this is amazing. 883 - > Once you get somebody as a client, they're forever buying 884 - > new contact lenses and the the job's done. 885 - > Yeah. 886 - > Well, obviously, restaurant business is nowhere near as It's 887 - > simple.

888 - > I'm not suggesting any other business is simple, but you 889 - > know, so many moving parts, as you've just brilliantly 890 - > articulated. 891 - > But one of the best parts of a great business is return 892 - > business. 893 - > And uh you're working ever so hard to make sure that that 894 - > happens and continues to happen. 895 - > So I'm I'm gonna doff my cap, I think that's what he says, isn't 896 - > it?

897 - > So well done, you guys. 898 - > That's that's a great one, and I I think that's one that we've 899 - > never really covered off um so much. 900 - > So it's great to learn about that. 901 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

902 - > SPEAKER_00: Um, so anything else you'd like to share with me? 903 - > Because I'm I'm we're about to wrap up. 904 - > Yeah. 905 - > Um, and I'm gonna ask you the final question.

906 - > Oh, there's a final question. 907 - > There is a fun you've obviously never listened to all of the 908 - > podcasts. 909 - > I'm afraid not until the end of the podcast. 910 - > SPEAKER_01: I'm not a big I'm not a big podcast guy.

911 - > I should get caught up now. 912 - > Well, I obviously I've I've I've listened to some of the 913 - > podcasts, but I haven't made my way all the way through. 914 - > I've really been caught up. 915 - > SPEAKER_00: Oh, I need my camera now because you're blushing a 916 - > little bit.

917 - > I love it. 918 - > Yeah, uh, not to put you on the spot, but Benji Lee Blitz. 919 - > Yeah, what does hospitality mean to you? 920 - > Huh.

921 - > SPEAKER_01: Um we talk about this quite a lot internally, so 922 - > I don't have a uh a short, pithy answer for you, I'm afraid. 923 - > But I'll tell you I'll answer it this way, if you'll allow me, 924 - > which is we talk about the difference between hospitality 925 - > and service. 926 - > So this is something that I learned and in the school of 927 - > Will Gadara, who was uh the the one of the owners of Lebmassen 928 - > Park and the Nomad, and he's gone on to write this book on 929 - > reasonable hospitality that has really resonated, and um he's a 930 - > bit of a leading figure in the US uh hospitality world.

931 - > And he he always used to push this really strongly with us at 932 - > the Nomad. 933 - > And the idea being that service is technical and hospitality is 934 - > emotional, and service is black and white, hospitality is 935 - > colour, and service is is how we look after people and 936 - > hospitality is how we look out for people. 937 - > And I think this is something that we talk about a lot in our 938 - > building, which is one without the other doesn't really work 939 - > because fantastic hospitality means making someone feel great, 940 - > but their food arrives late and cold and it's the wrong thing 941 - > that they ordered and so on.

942 - > But equally, getting all the technical pieces right with no 943 - > personality, with no warmth, with no um uh sense of 944 - > generosity, with no sense of empathy, is completely 945 - > transactional. 946 - > So we work quite hard to try and have a balance between those two 947 - > things, but ultimately, where I would come to is I would say 948 - > hospitality for me is about connection, which is can you 949 - > build an experience for someone that they feel in some way 950 - > connected to?

951 - > And can you help them uh want to be an ambassador of what it is 952 - > you're doing so that they all come back, so that they'll be a 953 - > um uh they'll market your business. 954 - > Um and my favorite, favorite proof of this is when someone 955 - > comes back to the restaurant, and the first thing they want to 956 - > do before they say hi to the Matre D or a manager or whoever 957 - > they've met in the past is show their friends the space. 958 - > And to me, that's the sign of someone feeling a shared sense 959 - > of ownership of a space and of a concept.

960 - > And if you're doing that, I mean you've won. 961 - > So it's a long-winded way of answering it, but hopefully 962 - > that's somewhere to not too long-winded. 963 - > SPEAKER_00: I've really enjoyed and learnt ever so much. 964 - > I think there's almost the articulation of a third space, 965 - > which I think late Timothy Bacon used to say to me, um, founder 966 - > of Living Adventures, etc.

, up north, he's uh such a legend, 967 - > and I'm not sure I've ever mentioned him before, but um, 968 - > those that have been around a long time might know him. 969 - > Um, but yes, I think that's that's a feeling I'm getting 970 - > from what you've just articulated. 971 - > But Benji, thank you so much for having me. 972 - > I'm so grateful that we got our hero shot in front of that blue 973 - > canopy that's so well known, and thank you so much.

974 - > It's been really enjoyable. 975 - > SPEAKER_01: This was really great. 976 - > Thanks a lot. 977 - > SPEAKER_00: All right, thanks.