The Foot-Brain Connection: Why Proprioceptive Orthotics Are Transforming Chiropractic Care

Speaker A: Live from the TechTalk studios in the nation's capital and the heartland of America, it's Tech Talk.

Speaker B: You know, it's Friday. It's time for Tech Talk. I'm Brad Koss, my co host, the one and only Dr. Jay Greenstein. Jay, Betty, what time is it for you today?

Speaker C: It is Tech talk time.

Speaker D: Brad.

Speaker C: It's taken, I don't know what seven takes at this point for us to get this podcast started. Andrew's probably thinking, these guys are idiots. Technical. Technical issues for technical guys. It happens all the time.

Speaker B: It does happen all the time. I know when we, we talk together, sometimes we step up in the PowerPoint. It just, and nothing work and it just crazy for us sometimes.

Speaker C: I know, I know. It's unbelievable.

Speaker B: Hey, buddy, we got a great guest today. Somebody new that I'm just meeting today, but why don't you introduce our guest today? Let's get started with the podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah, man. I got my brother here, uh, in sleeveless, sleeveless, uh, attire. This is great. This is the first time ever on Tech Talk all, all these years that somebody dresses like me. So now I feel, I feel like, you know, brothers in arms here, Andrew. It's great. Um, so we have today Dr. Andrew Powell of Better Balance Orthotics. I met Andrew through uac, the Ultimate Achievers Club, a great chiropractic entrepreneur organization. Just, just amazing people in that group. And Andrew and I are both members and we met in Puerto Rico and, uh, hung out and he actually shared his orthotic with me. Uh, and I was like, we gotta get you on Tech Talk, man. This is a great product and, uh, I wanna share it with the world. So. Andrew, welcome.

Speaker E: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. Uh, I'm here in Italy for a UAC event at the moment and man, it's hot. So. Thanks. The outfit.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I get you. It's 107. Feels like temperature here today in D.C. brad, what about you? Are you hot over there?

Speaker B: It's hot. Yeah, it's cooled off. We've had some rain come in in the evenings last couple nights, uh, but it's cooled down. But we were, we were bumping right up that 98 degrees. It's warm, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'll be, I'm ready for the fall already for a variety of reasons. But Andrew, um, for the audience that like, doesn't know you, hasn't met you before, maybe give a little bit of background of how you got into chiropractic and then how you built an orthotics, company.

Speaker E: Sure. So, um, you know, I've been in practice 24, nearly 25 years now down in Sydney, Australia, uh, built an AK based practice. Even going back further than that. I mean, I grew up my whole life with super flat feet, right? I was the kid who. I played soccer my whole life was the goalkeeper because I just could not run. I was a great swimmer. I was a terrible runner. And, um, you know, when I got into chiropractic, one of the things I really looked at was different types of athletics. And so I wore traditional athletics for years. And I found that they really never did anything to improve my feet, my balance, my posture, or anything else. In fact, I ended up in a place where I completely destroyed my L5 disc. I had bilateral, uh, osteoarthritis in my hips by the time I was 30. And ultimately it lead to an abdominal hernia, uh, which are all things that I've now come to understand, really trace directly back to the crappy mechanics in my feet and how they were affecting my spine. So, um, that kind of led me, you know, down a, down the rabbit hole, so to speak, um, understanding how the feet influence the rest of the body. And over, you know, I met actually a medical doctor in Sydney who created the world's first proprioceptive orthotic, which is designed not as a support, but purely as a stimulation for the nervous system. And that really opened up a completely different understanding for me of, um, how to support our patients through chiropractic. And really, that's what, that's what brought me here today.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's great. I mean, that was the word that I was thinking about before I hopped on the, um podcast today when I did try your orthotics and I stepped on them. Proprioceptive input were the words that I was thinking about. I mean, and they were comfortable, right? Um, which is a problem with many orthotics. They're just not comfortable. They're not well made. They're prefabricated for the entire masses. But you, you've got a custom process that you provide for your customers, patients, um, because, you know, you're helping folks like me that own chiropractic practices to deliver these to their patients. So maybe talk a little bit about what is that process like.

Speaker E: So what it's like, I mean, really, for us, it's not so much about feet, orthotics, or anything else. I wrote a newsletter called the Foot Brain Connection, and that's really understanding. It's how are our feet influencing our neurology? So we talk about it as the stimulation versus support paradigm. So, you know, the old paradigm is you support something. The reality is we don't need more support. Right. When it comes to our feet, we have the most supportive shoes we've ever had in history. Um, the way I explain it to my patients, I say, look, if you came in with back pain and I just gave you a back brace and said, hey, just wear this back brace every day. Maybe in the short term, you would experience less back pain, but over time, you think your back would get weaker or stronger. And patients get it right. They all get it right. They say, well, my back would get weaker because the brace is doing the job that my back should be doing. And I came to understand that same thing is really true. Whether we wear orthotics, supportive shoes, whatever we do, we don't need more support. We need more stimulation. You know, as human beings, we. We never evolved to wear shoes. Right. For millions of years, we were barefoot, on uneven surfaces, on dirt and grass and sticks. That's an incredible amount of sensory information coming through our feet, through our brain, every minute of every day, more or less. And our brains really came to rely on that information to set up our balance, uh, our posture, our neurology, our gait, our movement patterns. In fact, the more I've kind of dived down the research rabbit hole on this, the more things I realize our feet are influencing. It's like our brain is meant to have this constant stream of sensory information. And thanks to, um, the shoes we wear and the environment that we walk on, which is just unnaturally flat, hard surfaces, pretty much everybody's brain is just starving, um, for that. It's something that's affecting almost every aspect of what we're addressing with our patients. And yet it's something that really, I was never trained to think about in my chiropractic training or even my first, you know, 10, 15 years of practice. It just. Nobody ever told me that before, and yet it's massive. It really influences everything.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love what you said. And, Brad, I hope you heard. We need more stimulation, Brad.

Speaker B: Especially from the bottom of our feet, huh?

Speaker C: Especially,

Speaker B: you know, Andrew, actually, I make fun of that, but that actually makes a lot of sense. I mean, that's how we're tied to the world, to the earth, to our balance, to just the core being of how we stand upright. And. And so that makes, uh. I'm sorry that I made fun of it. I had to do that for Jay. But it does make perfect sense.

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a funny thing. I have both patients, but also, doctors say this to me all the time. They go, you know what? I never really thought of it that way before, but now that you say it, it makes perfect sense. It does, right? Every force that we encounter, whether it's a movement that we create or whether it's an external force pushing on us, or whether it's gravity, whatever it is, it's all got to anchor back, back to the ground. And the only way it does that is through the feet. So what's really interesting is our feet are the second most receptor dense place in our body apart from the head and neck. The highest concentration of sensory receptors in the body is in our feet. Right? That's why it's so irritating if you have a pebble in your shoe or if you step on a piece of Lego. Right? It sucks. Uh, and it's because our feet are really a sensory organ and almost none of us get that sensory input that we were really, really designed for. And it's, it's really sabotaging what we do in chiropractic practice. It means that our patients are not holding their adjustments as well as they should because they're walking, they're working against us with every step that they take.

Speaker C: That's so wild.

Speaker B: But, Andrew, there were. There are a lot of orthotic companies out there, you know. And what was it in your mind that just said, hey, I can make a better orthotic? I mean, it's got to come down to, to fit how you measure, how you fit the products that you use to make the orthotic. But what was it that went off in your mind that said, I can make a better one?

Speaker E: You know what, it's been an interesting journey for me because I didn't invent these orthotics. Um, I used them in my own practice for years. I was taught very early on by one of my mentors. He said, if you're ever going to wear or use orthotics, you should only use these. They were invented by a medical doctor called Dr. Ed Butterworth in Sydney. And, uh, he actually created them for treating scoliosis. He had a daughter with very severe scoliosis. She had a failed Harrington rod surgery. And through his journey with that, he, he came up with these completely different to every other orthotic. I've tried lots of different orthotics. I've used lots of different orthotics. I prescribed lots of different orthotics. And they were all based on the same paradigm. They're all saying ours are better because of this, because of, of that. But at the end of the day, they're all basically supports of some description. Um, these orthodox have zero support, and they're purely about stimulation. When I started using them in my practice for the first, probably, I don't know, maybe five years or more, all I used them for was scoliosis. That's what I was trying to use them for. Um, what we discovered over time is that we started to see changes in more and more things. And at first it was obvious things, you know, plantar fasciitis or knee problems or lumbar problems, kids or whatever. Over time, we started to see more and more things. You know, parents coming back going, my kids concentrating better in school, or, you know, my kids doing better with their add, or I have less fatigue at the end of the day. All sorts of even autonomic things. We've had now chiropractic neurologists saying, hey, wearing these is actually balancing out my patients. Um, blind spots. We see cerebellar changes, vestibular changes, all these changes in the brain. And so, you know, I really can't take credit for, for the orthotic. Um, sadly, Dr. Ed, who created them, passed away in 2020. And before he did, he came to me and said, you know what? I've got this thing that I know could change the world, but I've just never had time outside my medical practice to really, you know, take it to the world the way it needs to happen. So I'm hoping, um, you can be that guy. And sadly, when we were in talks over that, he passed away quite suddenly. So, um, I feel, in a way, this is a real service to the world. I think our patients need it, and I think it's a great service to chiropractic. It's perfectly aligned with the chiropractic paradigm. But it's also nice to kind of carry on that legacy that Dr. Ed was hoping to see impact the world in a positive way.

Speaker C: That's amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I know that we have to take a break, Brad, but when we come back, I definitely have some. Lots of questions because this is just really, really cool.

Speaker B: It is, and I'm anxious to hear more about it.

Speaker F: I've.

Speaker B: I've worn orthotics, uh, before. You know, I have either really pretty good success or I have horrible success with it. So I'm curious to find out what you experience whenever you get yours. I want to see what, what you have to say about that. Yeah, man, let's Take a quick break. Uh, listen guys, everybody, audience come back. You're going to want to hear the rest of this story. Um, it's a, it's very interesting. It, it's truly grounded in your feet and it's important. So come on back. This is Tech Talk. I'm Brad Cost, my co host, the one and only Dr. Jay Greenstein. We'll be right back.

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Speaker B: Well, welcome back. This is Tech Talk. I'm Brad Kost, the comedian of the crowd, Dr. Jay Greenstein. Betty, hey, we're, we're talking with Andrew today about orthotics. He led off with this. My brain is still trying to rap about being grounded, uh, with your feet, because I knew that, but I just didn't ever relate that to an orthotic. And Andrew, I mean jump in here and tell me a little bit. What was that thing that just sparked in you and said this is a great deal and I need to carry on. You told the story about acquiring what the business did for you and how. And that was an amazing story to itself. But how did you know you were changing the world when you took on this, uh, this business? What. What is it that you felt inside of you? I'm doing the right thing here.

Speaker E: You know, it's been such a journey of discovery. Because I'll be honest, when I first took it on, I. I actually wasn't that excited to take it on, right? I was like, I'm a busy, you know, father, parent, chiropractor. The last thing I need is another business. Um, because at the time, I really didn't see what it was about. I didn't really understand that it was more than just a treatment for scoliosis. Part of it was my own story. Like I said, I grew up my whole life with flat feet. And that led to a whole bunch of issues. One day we were walking on the beach, and my wife pointed at my footprint. She goes, hey, check it out. You've got a normal footprint now, right? My feet went from these big blobs to, like, having a real functional arch. And in years of wearing traditional orthotics, I've never seen anything make those kind of changes, make lasting structural changes, which I see that happens with these. They straighten bunions, they make changes in posture. We measure changes in balance. But what I've really come to understand, the thing that really got me to a point where I went, you know what? I am genuinely excited about this. It was like a. You know, it didn't start as a passion, but it's absolutely become a passion, as I've understood. The research behind it is that these are not structural input. They're a neurological input. We're really talking chiropractic about the nervous system being organized from above down inside out. And we understand that's how healing works in the body. But what I've come to understand is that we're a sensory first organism, right? Every motor output starts with a sensory input. And so the kind of phrase that I've coined for this is that biomechanics is. Actually works from below, up, outside, in, right? So it's the balance. It's the yin and yang, right? We. We have this. This information flowing through the nervous system that, as you said, it has to be grounded, right? It has to anchor into the earth at some point, and it has to be based on getting accurate sensory information. Without that, it's like we're just blindfolded. The brain and it creates really consistent postural Changes, really consistent, like all sorts of, um, neurological changes, movement patterns, many of the things that we're dealing with in clinic every day for years, I never understood how connected they were to the feet. And so when we started to really put this in place in a major way in my practice, we went from using it maybe a few times a year just for scoliosis, to the point where this is literally one of the first things we do with every patient now. We assess it on the first. It's part of the report of fine. It's part of the care plan. It's like, why would I let you walk out the door on the same dysfunctional feed that created the pattern that we're trying to correct in the first place? Uh, so it really has developed into a passion. It's really understanding that the human nervous system is a sensory first system. And one of the key things we need to be able to sense is the ground.

Speaker C: So it almost seems like it's a disservice to call them orthotics. Like, it doesn't quite describe what the apparatus does to really drive neurologic input. So I don't know, maybe just think about that, and maybe you. Maybe you now are creating a new category, Andrew, that has never been created before. And that's just something. Something that I think about as it relates to your business. Um, but I'm really wanting to know about the scoliosis piece. So all of it makes sense in theory, but when it comes to the practical results that you're getting, you had the scoliosis piece patients. I know you've been treating all patients since then. But with the scoliosis patients, which are really tough, what were the changes that you saw? And did you ever consider maybe writing a case study or case series or anything like that?

Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely. So just on the orthotics question, I agree 100%. Right. We really. I originally thought about calling Brain Balance orthotics, but I thought, no people. I can understand that. The reason that we still call them orthotic is because that's what health funds in Australia will rebate for, because they are medical price, and so they insurance. So because as chiropractors, we really don't like. Or a lot of us don't like that term or cry. It's like, because we came to realize what that's doing is it's just supporting dysfunction. Uh, we're about correcting neurology. Optimizing neurology.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker E: So to get back to your scoliosis question, um, Dr. Ed that was a big passion for him. He was a medical doctor and so he had me. Any before and after X rays of patients who are not chiropractic patients. But we're seeing significant and dramatic changes in the scoliosis. And so, uh, you know, that's what I use these for. Figures. And I saw the same changes. I've come to understand many of the mechanisms behind them over the years. And we're working on research. We have a couple of things going on with research at the moment. We'd love to get some stuff published. We collect a whole lot of objective data. In my practice, we use a vestibular plate that measures balance. We posture photos, spinal scans, thermal images, all sorts of stuff. But the way I kind of explain to my patients and why I think is at least one of the mechanisms when it comes to scoliosis. So your brain is always setting up your posture based on the information it's getting from your feet. So, uh, if I'm standing flat, I get this going on. If I'm standing on the side of a hill. Now my brain knows it needs to fire the muscle muscles down one side of my body more than the other side so that I don't fall down the hill. Right. And if that system's working the way it's designed, it's very elegant the way the brain controls the body based on that input. But if you've got dysfunctional information coming from your feet, say for example, because you spend your whole life wearing shoes and walking on unnaturally flat, boring surfaces, now the brain doesn't really know what's going on. And so let's say our brain now thinks we we've got one foot here and one foot here. All of a sudden we've got half the spine trying to go one way and half the spine trying to go the other way. And I, I actually think that's one of the key mechanisms that connect the feet to scoliosis. The brain is trying to adapt based on faulty information. It's like, you know, if you train an AI on bad information, it's like the garbage in, garbage out, Right? If you put the wrong input in, you're going to get the wrong output out. It's that simple.

Speaker C: Yeah. Brad, let me ask you a question. When you walk around your house, are you barefoot?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: Yep. Me too.

Speaker B: Me too. And you know, I'm very flat footed. I don't have an arch. That's a problem, you know, and, and I do get feet pain or foot pain whenever I stand too long or those Kind of things, because I just don't have the arch and the support there. That's why I've tried the orthotics, but I've not had really great success. And I paid a lot of money for orthotics over time. And, you know, I've had them measure it. I've had them have the foam where you step in and make the mold. But what, Andrew, how do you do that? How do you measure and make the correct, perfect orthotic?

Speaker E: So our orthotics really different. There's no. No molding or anything like that. I used to have, like, a plate that people walked over, and it took nice measurements of their center of balance and all of that stuff, you know, Very fancy. But the orthotics are produced, like you said. I experienced the same thing.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker E: Uh, they never made a real change for me. My feet stay flat even though I wore them for 10 years. And the key thing is not the feet. As soon as the feet flatten, it throws our weight back on our heels. So we have to compensate by swaying our pelvis forward. And then once that happens, the ultimate aim is we get this forward head posture, which causes so much neurological issues. So. So we actually use functional testing. There's two ways they can be prescribed. They're originally designed to use muscle testing. So, um. Although many of our docs don't do that these days, we've developed other ways. But, um, it's a real functional test. And so the first thing we do is we test the patient standing, and then we stand them on the orthotics, and we retest them again. And you see immediate, like, instant changes in range of motion in palpatory muscles, spasm in cerebellar tests and standard neurological tests in muscle activation. Uh, we see that people's neck flexors switch on as soon as they stand on them. So rather than being like a mechanical, structural mold of the foot, we're more interested in the neurology, in the function. What's actually happening when you stand on your feet? What is the brain doing with that information that it's getting from your feet? And in most cases, it's. And it's. It's not good, man.

Speaker B: I gotta say, that's pretty unusual approach to building an orthotic. Jay. What? I mean, have you ever heard of that kind of approach?

Speaker C: Not before, Andrew. But what's really interesting is that, uh, when I wore early in my career, when I wore, um, Foot Levelers orthotics, and I couldn't stand them because they were so uncomfortable. No offense to Foot Levelers.

Speaker E: Great.

Speaker C: Amazing. Phenomenal company has done so much for chiropractic. Love the people there, but it was just very uncomfortable for me. I couldn't use them. Um, so it wasn't a good fit for me. But it feels like, um, Kent's dad, the founder of foot levelers, uh, Dr. Greenwald, really understood these same principles. It's like, how do you provide input into the bottom of the foot that's going to actually help the patient. They would use the term, hold their adjustments better. And I think there's some genius there. And I think you guys are applying, you know, those same, you know, genius principles. So it's. It's really, really cool. It's like legacy, really, like the foundation of orthotics and chiropractic. And now you're. You're doing something that's even, um, I would say, more interesting and more powerful. So it's really. It's really cool to see. Again, no disrespect, Foot Levelers, great company. They're doing some really amazing things across the board. But, um, I love what you're doing as well.

Speaker E: Yeah, we kind of hope we're taking that to the next level. Right? Taking that and building on it.

Speaker C: Yeah. And some. Some patients are going to respond to Foot levelers, and some are going to respond to yours.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So really, to. To get a pair of orthotics from you, you really have to examine the patient then, or a chiro do your examinations for you, Correct?

Speaker E: Yes. So currently they're only available through chiropractors. They're available in Australia, New Zealand, in the States. You know, we. We train chiropractors to implement them and prescribe them for their patients.

Speaker B: That. That is amazing. I. I'm going to have to do a little more research into it because I've never heard that approach. You, uh, know, again, Kent's group, you. You step on the plate and it measures your foot and they build the orthotics. There's been another person that's been at a conference where they take. And they have a mold that they heat, and you step your foot onto it and it builds it. Those weren't very successful for me at all. But that's. That's very fascinating on. On the concept behind that, and very unique. Gentlemen, we need to take another quick break, and we're going to come back and end this up. And audience, come back and listen. You're a. You're going to want the information of how to get hold of Andrew and uh, maybe learn these techniques so you can offer these orthotics in your area. So come on back and, and we're going to finish out this conversation in the next segment. This is Tech Talk. I'm Brad Kost, my co, uh, host, the one and only Dr. Jay Greenstein. Come on back.

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Speaker C: The world around us, and healthcare specifically is changing at an exponential pace. Chiropractic is perfectly positioned like we have never been right now, today to be more successful and to be more impactful for the communities and patients that we serve. There are all sorts of evidence based guidelines that support the use of non pharmacological approaches. But what I want America to know is that health doesn't come from a pill. It's our response to responsibility as healthcare providers. To educate the community about the evidence that exists. We really need to have a private practice app, something that will help us, uh, engage with our patients in ways that they've never experienced before. The intersection of technology and quality care is where the future of healthcare is at. And I'm really excited to bring that forward in the future.

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Speaker C: What's up everybody? It's Dr. Jay Greenstein here with my very good friend Mr. Brad Kossa and Dr. Andrew Powell of Better Balance Orthotics it's just been a really awesome podcast, I gotta tell you. I learned so much today, Andrew. And um, the way that you break some complex stuff down into some really simple, um, concepts is really helpful. So uh, I want to know though, the business side of things. So how much do these orthotics typically cost and how much do um, docs typically sell them for? And then like, are there situations where if a patient's not happy, they get returns and how often does that happen? Just let's put on our business hat and maybe discuss those things.

Speaker E: Sure. So, um, you know what, we really want to keep these affordable for patients. So compared to a traditional orthotic, ah, we think they're really well priced. So our recommended retail is 3, 395 and for docs, 195. So um, you know, we try and look after. We want it to be a win for everybody. Right. We want it to be a win for the patient, we want it to be a win for the doctor. And I think really we've hopefully managed to create that. Mhm.

Speaker C: I will say that they are not related to the business side, but when I think about selling it and whether or not patients would be happy, like I did step on them and they, they were really comfortable, like felt good. So do you have issues with, with returns, uh, from um, from patients, for providers and then.

Speaker E: And no, very rarely. I mean one of the things I really love about them is they, they're way better tolerated than a traditional orthotic. They're not hard, they're very, very thin, they're very comfortable. They really just work by stimulating the proprioceptors in the feet. So patients love them, doctors love them. It's, you know, like I said, they're a win. Win.

Speaker C: Yeah. Great.

Speaker B: So I have a question. What, what kind of training do you offer a Cairo to go through to be able to, uh, to write the prescription, to order these through your company?

Speaker E: So we do provide full training. It's, it's very straightforward. Um, at the moment in training. We have all of our training online in our doctor's area, but it also involves training directly from the train the doctors or train their teams. So we're very focused on making sure that our doctors have everything they need to really be able to get started very quickly and easily. The first thing we do is get them on your own feet. Right? You've got to feel them, you've got to wear them, you've got to believe in them first. So the first thing we do is we get them on the doctor's feet. We train the doctors how to prescribe them for their patients. It's, it's really a straightforward process.

Speaker B: Uh, what kind of initial investment does it take for the doctor to get started using, using your products and prescribing your products?

Speaker E: Don't quote me on it, because this is not my area. But I believe our starter pack is 325, and that includes care for the doctor and also everything they need to get started in the clinic. So we really tried to make it just the most minimal barrier to entry that we can.

Speaker B: You know, I think that the doctors have got to appreciate that because, you know, we hear all kinds of things. Well, it's going to be $10,000 or, you know, okay. You know, a lot of doctors are trying to grow and expand, and you got to appreciate a product like this that can be an, uh, easy way to get into a new product and a product that's going to help the patients.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Well, Andrew, this has been a very interesting podcast. I am glad that you came on. Uh, and I'm glad you're in Italy having a great time. On top of that, you know, some good wine. Can't beat a deal like that. But, um, any kind of deal that you would like. First, let's start out with how do people get hold of you if they're interested in doing this?

Speaker E: So, I mean, they can find us at Better Balance Orthotics. I write a weekly newsletter called the Foot Brain Connection, which is a really great place to start to understand a bit more about what we do. I really try and make it very clinically relevant every week. Um, the place I would recommend people start is we created what we call our five minute Foot Reset, which is just a really quick way to assess someone. Um, apply a couple of really fast interventions and see immediate changes in their posture. Patients usually stand up and they're blown away. So it's a little bit long. A long run for this is info.betterbalanceorthotics.com 5 minute foot reset. Okay.

Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely think you need a new URL. What's that again?

Speaker E: Yeah, it's a long one. So it's info.betterbalanceorthotics.com five minute footreset.

Speaker C: Is it five number or five the word five?

Speaker E: I think. I believe it's the number five. Five the number. Yeah. If you just look Better Balance Orthotics, you'll find us, reach out to us, and, you know, we, we're very responsive.

Speaker B: We're going to put this on the social media page, so you don't need to worry about it. Docs, we'll have it out there for you of how you get hold of Andrew. Andrew, how about an email that they can reach out to you about with?

Speaker E: Yeah, just infoetterbalanceorthotics.com.

Speaker B: okay. All right. Well, Jay, buddy, uh, great product, it sounds like. I'm anxious to hear what you have to say after you get yours.

Speaker C: Can't wait to have it.

Speaker B: Oh, that's great. Andrew, thank you again for spending the last 45 minutes with us. We've had a great time. We appreciate your time. We hope that your travels in Italy are great, that you get home safely and get back to practice. I'm sure your patients are waiting for you to get home.

Speaker E: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker C: It was great. Thanks, Andrew.

Speaker B: From my co host, the one and only Dr. Jay Greenstein. I'm Brad Kost. Have a great day.

Speaker C: See y'.

Speaker B: All.