Designing Leaders, Not Just Engineers: METM’s Founding Story with Dr. Ben Zoghi

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Technical Leadership Talks, the podcast that brings you advice, insights and knowledge from industry leaders and experts on how to navigate managing in a technical field. Technical Leadership Talks is brought to you by Texas, a new university's Master of Engineering Technical Management, an online graduate program that trains industry professionals for leadership positions. I'm Katie, METM's digital marketer and your host for this episode. In this episode we speak with Dr. Benzogi, the founder of the Master of Engineering technical management program. Dr. Zoe shares the origin story of METM. Where the idea came from, the industry needs was designed to meet in the vision that shaped its unique blend of technical leadership, emotional intelligence and real world application. So can you take us back to the beginning and what inspired you to create the Master of Engineering Technical Management?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Uh, I can take you back to 2015 when a group of industry leaders through our industry advisory board, uh, came to us and they challenged us with an opportunity to create a program that really brings management and engineering together. And uh, there were 12 companies and their frustration was they hired excellent engineer a lot from Texas A and M, but when they put them in management leadership position, either they fail or they don't do well. Mhm. So I think there is an opportunity for Texas A&UM M to respond to the needs of industry. And so we ask them a few questions, how about mba? And they said they're really happy with mba. But most MBA program across the country, they are in the context of management, accounting, marketing and finance. They're not in the context of engineering. So is there any MBA focus for engineers? That was their mindset. So uh, we sat down with these 12 companies and they were from petroleum, electronics, aerospace, software, consulting, if I remember, most auto industry, um, electronic, big companies and some smaller companies. We came up with a wish list and the concept here was these are the skills we need from a master student, whatever you guys want to call the program. But these are things university, they do not teach it and people have to learn at work. On uh, the average it takes about seven years working for a company to really get promoted into high level management. And we want to shorten that time. Rather than seven, maybe it could be two years or three years. So that's how the whole program started. The challenge was to the whole department. I was the only one extremely interested in uh, volunteering for this program. And I shared that with a former dean, with department head, with the other 14 departments who were excited about our program. I said the most important thing about creating any program are really two things. A faculty, a Permanent faculty should take ownership and be held accountable. I have to give up, uh, some of my research, a few other things, consulting, to really focus on building this program. That's really how the program started back in 2015. By 2016, we put the program outcome together. We did not create courses. We look at what's needed for the program, then we work backward. We created 10 courses in 2016. We submitted the program to the university for review and uh, approval. Then it goes to the higher education at the state of Texas. We had to do a market research to make sure that people who graduate from this program, they're marketable, the companies will hire them. Um, 2017 we start marketing. And 2018 was a first class. So that's 2015 through 2018. It went through quite, uh, a quite a bit of thing. And without having the right department head at that time, I don't think I would have been successful. So Dr. Langari really trusted me and he provided me with the limited resources that he had. He allowed me to run with the program rather than micromanage me. And that's not common in higher education. And I think a lot of things attributed to the success of program, but initially the right leadership at the department level, high level of industry interaction in bringing to our attention, helping us to design the curriculum, and then high, uh, level of enthusiasm and ownership from myself, uh, kickstarted the whole program.

Speaker A: So you talked about there's some skills that these industries identified that they were hoping to get out of this type of program. What were some of those skills?

Speaker B: They primarily. So engineers are very, very good at solving problems or creating products. Uh, when it comes to the human side, engineers shy away. Uh, any leadership position. Uh, traditional engineers don't want to get into it because they have to work with other people. When you work with other people, there's emotion involved. Engineers look at emotion as a source of noise and problem, to be very honest with you, stereotype. What the companies needed from us was really to develop effective technical leaders. And the leadership was at the personal level, at the team level and organizational. So three different layers of leadership. But this is not just a leadership program. They wanted a leader who can make decision. So one of our main course focus was on decision making, especially data driven decision making. The other one was really being able to manage assets and the finances effectively. So we had a course on really asset management and we have a course on financial engineering or financial aspect of running a company. So other courses like project management was obviously needed. Things related to the contracting was needed. So from an Industry perspective. They wanted someone who can work very effectively with other people, who can communicate very effectively more as a manager and eventually as an executive. Be able to make decision under stress. Mhm. And that was one of their highest request. And I think the reason the program has been so successful is because we exceeded their expectation. I mean having the perfect faculty and staff to run this program. These are subject matter experts from industry coming in with 30, 40, 50 years of experience. Not only academically they were qualified, but they really work in industry, which most engineering professors, they're more scientists, they never work in industry in their life. So they graduated with a PhD. They go, you know, to the university and they were doing a lot of fundamental and maybe even applied research. That was not the case. And then the quality of staff we hired. So these staff were really selfless. They really put their heart into it. Uh, the program provided a lot of flexibility, anything they wanted. So to me there were a lot of people behind the scene and also involved in this scene that make the program what it is today.

Speaker A: So talking a little bit about the emotional intelligence aspect of it. So METM is known, or at least a lot of students. When I receive feedback after they graduate, the emotional, intelligent and the personal leadership development part of METM is such, uh, an integral part of their learning and something that they enjoyed the most. So how do those elements become central to the program's design? Specifically, if you wanted to talk a little bit about your class that you

Speaker B: teach, I want to be transparent with you. Uh, um, the reason for starting the program with emotional intelligence, because that was a life changing event for me as an engineering professor. Uh, four days after 9, 11, I got my first management position. And after a couple years I noticed that I'm not really doing well. Even though I thought I'm smart enough to get a PhD. But what the heck is wrong? I cannot manage these people. And I started reading a lot of books about, uh, leadership. And I ran into a book by Daniel Goldman on emotional intelligence that really hit me personally hard. So for me it has been a personal journey. And I went back to school, uh, to learn more about leadership, effective leadership, ethical leadership. And with an emotional intelligence foundation, um, most engineers, we don't want to go below the neck in a sense. You know, we focus on the brain power. Everything has to be logical. But when you look at human, when you look at interaction with others, really most decisions that engineers don't believe it is based on emotion. Uh, think about shopping, think about any decision you make during the day. A lot of it is emotion based decision making. Yes, you validate that with data. But so for me, I felt like we spent a lot of time looking outside of ourselves. And for me it was introspect, you know, uh, checking up with myself and being able to make conscious mindful decision. So I bring my personal life to the class. The class is really about emotional intelligence. From an engineer is perspective. Mhm. The question has come up. Can other people teach it? To me, anyone can teach anything. But to bring 40 years of experience as an engineer, as an engineering professor, as a director, as a leader into the classroom, that's a little different than just memorizing a book or preparing some slide. The reason the students really, really love it, because it has changed their life, uh, personally and professionally. And I hear that from students, they tell me about that. It's not just my class, it's also the coaching that goes with my class. Because in my class I talk about behavior change and the behavior doesn't change in five days, which is what the residency is. So throughout the whole semester they have an opportunity to work with a professional coach and really go deeper. So at the end of the day, we're all human. Every one of us has emotions, challenges and issues in their life. One thing they learn is to be in the present moment, to be in the present moment with a curious mind and an open heart. And to me that's the foundation of being more empathic, which is something a leader must really have to be an effective leader. And regardless of what your position is, we talk about nonjudgmental, which is extremely hard, but that's a part of the process. I challenge them, um, to make it more personal. They stay in touch for years and years. So to me, ah, is a group of great people who have been focusing on outside of themselves, jobs, family. And this class challenges them that, hey, uh, you need to look at the power of your mind, the power of your brain. Because I can change my mind, that can change the way I feel, that can change the way I behave, and that can change my paradigm. So that, that the neuroscience that was added to the course about five years ago I think brings a lot of scientific data and scientific research into the leadership development and I think that makes it unique.

Speaker A: What about um, any other courses that you want to talk about? Whenever you were first developing the program, you talked a little bit about the decision making. What other courses did you find integral to the curriculum and why?

Speaker B: So, uh, the feedback we got from industry, again we had a list of program outline. Obviously there were more Than a few hundred. We put a few hundred into different categories and we noticed there is a pattern here. The pattern was we want to make sure someone can lead themselves, have, uh, values they can manage, you know, themselves, they can manage their impulses, they can communicate very effectively. So that became the personal leadership, which we call it the emotional intelligence leadership. At the same time, the objective was these people are going to be leading team, they're not leading themselves only. So another course that we created was leading team or managing technical team. We have students between 27, because you have to have three to five years of experience to about 57. Some of them are going to be directors, some of them are going to be executive. So we actually created the course at the executive level of leadership. Obviously we needed a course in finance. So financial. Everybody has to be able to read the financial statement of a company. We're not making an accountant or a financial analyst out of anyone. But they need to be smart enough to make decision based on data. Um, we felt like some level of project management is needed. But we notice we have students who never had project management or they have a lot of experience. That has always been a challenge. I mentioned, of course, in decision making. Think about that. When you wake up in the morning, you're making a lot of decisions, thousands of decisions if you really think about that. So to me, every person make a lot of decision. The question is, are they effective? That's a part of the course as an effective decision making. The other thing was the whole concept of negotiation contract. So we felt like teaching, uh, them some level of legal aspect, uh, will help them quite a bit. Three years ago, before AI became so hot, uh, I had a vision of creating an AI course for managers and leaders, uh, which right now we have it. Uh, the top university in the country are offering courses in AI for leadership. Because a lot of leaders and top managers, they don't care about programming, they don't care about the algorithm. They want to know how AI strategically is going to impact the company. Those were the courses. And now the question is, how can we bring them together? And that was the whole concept of, hey, if we can have every student come with a challenge from their company and that could be a project, we can, uh, spend a couple of semesters as a capstone. And that's how most courses were created. Some were modified in the past seven years and some have been enhanced and changed to some extent. And a couple we eliminated and we added something which is more important now, that's the history of the curriculum changes

Speaker A: can you share a moment or story from those early years that made you realize the program was working as you intended?

Speaker B: So there is not a shortage of story, but I can share probably the most touching one. Uh, there were actually two. Um, and both of those, my course had personal impact on their life. So there's a lot of professional that they got promoted. They felt like, hey, the return on investment was really good. Uh, after I got my degree, I got a raise for 30,000. So those are always good news, but emotional and touchy ones. Husband and wife. Husband was in my class at the graduation party. We were at Dixie Chicken, and everybody is having a good time. I met his wife and I said, well, I hope the program has been instrumental in making some changes in your life. And she said, yeah, you know, my heart. The husband is a very assertive, uh, hardcore, your typical project manager. Uh, and I brought up empathy. And they both looked at me and they said, well, Dr. Zoe, we want to share a story with you, and this is very personal, but you did something that changed both of our lives. We've been together since we were 16, high school sweethearts. After college, we got married. We have kids. Both of us have done well, well, well. With respect to our career average salary, each one was over 200,000. And because of this program, more specifically the EQ class, more specifically the whole concept of empathy and understanding each other, we were going in completely different direction. We were chasing titles and more money and more money. Right before the graduation ceremony, we have decided we love each other and we don't want to go through separation. So they both quit their job. The goal was we're going to spend the next 12 months bringing the love back to our life and truly getting to know each other. And we both owe that to you. And that was my man. Even when I talked about that, I can see goosebumps. Yeah, I mean, I really do. Because to me, um, my personality is. If you give me a $5,000 more, that makes me happy for an hour or maybe two days, maybe a week. But if you come and share something that I feel like I truly, truly impacted your life personally and, um, professionally, to me, that's the best reward, gratitude, whatever you want to call it, you know, that impacts me a long, long time. To me, that was the most touchy thing. So I have seen others. I have had students, uh, in my class that husband and wife in my class. I have had father, daughter in my class. I have brothers in my class. So to me, this is really my family on the staff side of it. I, uh, feel extremely close to Leslie Wei Yu. And to me, you guys were the backbone of the program to allow me to go and shine is a team that really made it what it is today. And, um, so I owe all the success to everyone who participated. So those are some of the things I can remember. And there are many, many, many others. I know that, but I don't remember all of them.

Speaker A: Yeah, last question. So how do you see the program's growth and evolution since its founding?

Speaker B: In terms of growth, um, the first three years, the number was 40, if I remember. 45, 72. 72 is the highest enrollment we had. And that's when I got extremely excited when I was working at Los Alamos over the summer. And I recruited a lot of people from, um, that taught me a painful lesson that this program, the way, at least I envision it, the way, you know, the faculty and the staff are working, is a super, super great program. For a capacity of 40. A typical MBA could be 70, 80. Some of them are about 90, and they have 30, 40 people supporting it. And I had no intention of creating a big, big class. My philosophy has always been, let's go ahead, have a smaller size class, that each one of our graduates will end up being an agent of change in their organization rather than someone who carries a diploma. And that was extremely important to me. So in terms of growth, we kept it pretty steady. But since the demand was so high, we used to take students in the fall. So we decided to take students in the spring as well. So in terms of the evolution, I think the program should be open. This is something extremely hard for faculty to accept the reality that their course is no longer is having impact. So if the day comes that I feel like my class is not helping students with what they need, I think the program, the director, whoever the director at that time is, they need to be open to really, uh, reevaluate, uh, the program and be able to take some courses out just like we did for. There was a supply chain course and then we took it out and we put AI class. So from Evolution, I want to make sure there is always a process improvement. Uh, and I really think the program is going in the right direction. My personal big picture message is as long as the program, regardless of who the professors are, regardless of who the director or the staff members are, as long as the motto of the program is exceed customer expectation, Focus on customer, which is the client, which would be a student, as long as your student center and you exceed their expectation and you make the expectation affordable, uh, not too low, not too high. I think the program will be in a great position. And I truly, truly. The other thing that I truly think has made this program very, very unique is a subject matter expert who pretty much I can say 100% of us, including myself, uh, they are not full time traditional professor. There's nothing wrong with full time traditional professor. But this program is for working professional. It makes more sense to be taught by working professional. And the other uniqueness is we also bring some level of research into the classroom. So the course we talked about, emotional intelligence, we are one of the few in the country that is looking at using artificial intelligence and emotional intelligence and wearable technology to help leaders to be more effective. That makes our program very unique. So if we can bring some level of research to the classroom in addition to experience, in addition to exceeding uh students expectation, but keeping focus and creating that networking, uh, I think we continue to be one of the best program in the country.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening in to today's episode. Tech Leadership Talks is brought to you by Texas A and M University's Master of Engineering Technical Management. To learn more, visit metm. Tmu. Edu.