Panos Panay: On Humility and Empathy in Leadership

Speaker A: Welcome to Tech Unheard, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of the most exciting developments in technology. I'm Rene Haas, your host and CEO of arm. Today I'm joined by Panos Panay, senior Vice President of Amazon Devices and Services. Before Amazon, Panos spent two decades at Microsoft, where he led the vision and strategy for their Windows and Devices division, including Windows 365, Windows 11, and the Microsoft Surface lines. In his role at Amazon, where he's been for about two years now, Panos has launched Alexa and is increasingly focused on AI and consumer devices. I'm glad to have him here to talk about it. Welcome to TechUnherd.

Speaker B: What's going on, brother?

Speaker A: Good to see you.

Speaker B: It's great to see you.

Speaker A: Glad to see you live and in person.

Speaker B: It's been a bit.

Speaker A: It's been a bit.

Speaker B: It's been a minute. I feel like you've been running the world over here.

Speaker A: I'm in charge of the world. I'm not sure I'm.

Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Yeah, you may be in charge of it. How is it going over here?

Speaker A: Uh, things are good. Yeah. Things are incredibly busy in our world. Your world. Technology never stops. But we're now in a point in time where it just seems like the next 10 to 15 years are going to be something unbelievable.

Speaker B: It's an incredible time. It's a transformative time in our lifetimes or our careers for sure. This is the biggest shift, would you agree?

Speaker A: Totally, totally. Uh, I tell folks that, and I'm sure you get the same question all the time about are we in an AI bubble? Which I think is just complete nonsense, but I also believe that not only obviously, machines thinking the way humans do, and perhaps even more obviously what's going to happen, but a not in our lifetime kind of thing, a Star Trek kind of thing. The fact that we're in the midst of it and it's all going to happen is amazing on so many levels. Scary on a lot of levels, which we'll chat about. But thank you for joining today. You know, one of the things I like to do, Panos, you and I know each other super well, but our listeners don't know you in terms of your background and how you kind of got to where you are. So I love to sort of start with a. Tell us kind of how you got to where you are, what got you into this kind of world of technology and products and creation.

Speaker B: You know, about 2830, I joined a Japanese company, electromechanical company. I worked there for five, six years. It opened the door to so many beautiful things, like from a design standpoint, from an engineering standpoint, from a product standpoint. And um, I was working on electromechanical devices. So you did keyboards, mice, speakers, power supplies, all hardware. And I mean I fell in love with the hands on. But back there, keep in mind it was all 2D drawings. Everything was like CAD was literally hand done. I was in the LA area and I was born and raised in the LA area. So that's my home. Microsoft came knocking and had offered me to jump into, if you will, hardware at Microsoft. And I remember sitting with her hardware

Speaker A: at the largest software company on the planet.

Speaker B: That's right, I mean it's Microsoft. And so, you know, I uh, remember talking to my dad about it and coming from, you know, I'm Cypriot, good, very tight, you know, my big fat Greek wedding type of family. Everybody, everybody is in the LA area, if not Greece or Cyprus and you know, to go to your dad and mom to have that conversation. Dad, I think I have this incredible opportunity, but it's in Seattle, uh, and it's working for Microsoft doing hardware. And he's like, what? Exactly what you said,

Speaker A: what can go wrong?

Speaker B: Yeah, what are you talking about? There was this real intersection. My uh, brother's a movie producer and Xbox had just started and there was Xbox Live just coming online. There was all these intersections of entertainment technology, computers, physical hardware, those connection points. It was clear things were changing. I had written a paper on where I thought my brother's industry and my industry would collide one day and I had these thoughts and so started Microsoft about 20, that was 24, 23 years ago, something like that.

Speaker A: And hardware at that time at Microsoft

Speaker B: was mice and keyboards.

Speaker A: The mice were great.

Speaker B: Yeah, they were, I mean they were,

Speaker A: they were actually the look and feel and the movement.

Speaker B: Yeah, people loved them. I mean they're built from thinking about the customer first and comfort and all these things that make a great product. But I think they were also doing Xbox at the time, like just starting ramping it and it was just an exciting time where you can start to see, to really wrap the benefits of software up for a customer. And what was coming, not that much different. Now with AI, you know, you need an endpoint, uh, something that people could purchase and use. So it felt like the perfect intersection. The only challenge was like moving to the Pacific Northwest from la. I don't think I can move back to LA now, no offense to all my family and friends in la, because once you adapt to the Pacific Northwest Northwest, you just become. Becomes part of you. And I mean, I love it, but

Speaker A: you wear a hoodie and you're always ready for rain.

Speaker B: It's darker for sure. It's colder, it's a little bit more wet, but there's not. You can't beat the summer as rain. So I had 20 years or so Microsoft. My journey started with mice and keyboards and that business unit. Then we added webcams, and that was a big endeavor. And turns out cameras matter and then some gaming stuff. And just the portfolio kept expanding. I think you and I were on the first Surface together, if you remember that. You were at Nvidia at the time I was building the first Surface. We were building on an arm. It was kind of crazy time. I'll come back to it if you want. But then, uh, the only thing that's

Speaker A: constant is ARM from that discussion.

Speaker B: It's true.

Speaker A: You're at Amazon, I'm here. But that product was pretty revolutionary in many ways. I remember the first time you showed me there was a keyboard that was a very flat keyboard that literally there was no tactile feedback on touch.

Speaker B: Oh, you remember that?

Speaker A: But it was beautiful.

Speaker B: I hardly remember that at this point,

Speaker A: Rene, but I remember just in terms of how innovative it was. And it was touch before, kind of touch was there. Tell me a little about what the thinking was behind that, because I remember when that came out, thinking, that's a revolutionary play. That's a very unique.

Speaker B: There were a couple things that were kind of transformative at that time for that product. I'll say that first one wasn't all that successful either, if you remember.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: But there were a couple things. One, we were building Windows on arm.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, it's kind of the first time laying down the silicon all the way through the software to get it right. That was some big thinking. And, you know, eventually it's been delivered. Took 10 years. But I think the product was a little bit ahead of its time that way, for sure. Kind of lower power profile, speeds and feeds. And then you had just the design element. And this is. We really wanted to create an object of desire, is what I would say. And, you know, you can't create something that you say, look, it's beautiful because it's like, you know, when you bring your kid to the party and say, look how smart my kid is. It doesn't work that way. You know, look how beautiful my coat is. I think that's for other people to assess because you have such a bias. But I think at that time we did want to build something that people thought was amazing from an object standpoint, something you purchased. And that kind of translates now into my Amazon work.

Speaker A: Would you have done anything different? Yes. The product was probably early from the standpoint of software for ARM clearly was not ready. I remember one of the first reviewers I met with going through the application stack and the reviewer said, does it run itunes? And of course the answer to that question was no. And he kind of just closed his notebook and said, you know, game over. Um, and looking back, I smile at that. But if you think back in terms of, gosh, had we done X and Y Z a little bit differently, the outcome might have been in a different way, or it was just, you know, what we just had to learn. You had to get that first one out there.

Speaker B: I think it's okay to say it's good to learn. I think if you were to say when you're making a big bet, sometimes you might be early and that's okay. You just have to recognize where you've made decisions that are wrong or you have to, you stop and shift and turn, uh, adjust. I think that's probably the most important thing to be thinking about when you're making a big bet. But if I hearken back to the days and we're talking 14 years ago now, so this is like, uh, let me. Is that right? I think about that 14, 13 something.

Speaker A: And you're probably 2,000. I think we started at 2009, 2010, because the product came out in 12.

Speaker B: The product came out October 26, 2012. I remember that day like a lightning rod. But I think, um, 2009, 10, we started so 14, 14, 15 years ago, working on it. If I could go back like, and tell you, like, what would we have done different to make that successful? I think it would have been, wait, I know that sounds crazy, but then I don't think the future then comes either. If you don't take the risk, if you don't lay down the vision and stick to it and get after it and learn from it, then I don't think the evolution comes either. So you can argue you're too early. And in this case we were one. You needed more bake time for Windows on arm. You needed a developer community to come along. Your tool sets need to be better. The platform needed to be better for that sake. And if we did have more developers, you'd have more apps. And if all the apps came, but that's obviously a chicken and egg problem. Like, uh, there wasn't enough ARM devices for a developer to really care. I mean, this is a long time ago. I don't think, though, if you change the thinking early and you knew every one of those answers, that the product would have found its way into success in its first generation anyway. The argument for success on any first generation product can be, not only can be like, you can have a hit in first gen, there's plenty of those, but it is, what did you learn? What did you take away from it? Did you establish a team that stuck together? Was that team passionate and compassionate about their customers? And then ultimately were they willing to understand where the failure was with objectivity? Which is pretty tricky because, you know, nobody really wants to be judged and, you know, you're managing so many different elements around that. But I think if we didn't go after it, and I would say that about any early product, now you can argue, should we have taken it out of the lab or should we have released it? I think maybe there's a debate or just get that far and go to the next gen. I think even launching it gave you the learnings that you needed.

Speaker A: I think though, you're right because if you have the stick to itiveness to continue to get the full stack of learning. I remember Jensen and I were talking about that. In fact, we even talked about it on this podcast back in the day. And if you remember, Nvidia was building a product called shield. I fully remember trying to do handheld controllers. And literally I Remember where the BOM was about $150 larger than what we thought the selling price should be. We were dealing with subcontractors in Taiwan. We had to get a procurement channel

Speaker B: set up that's so familiar.

Speaker A: But I asked Jensen about that product, uh, which by the way, sold minutia and company didn't make a lot of money on it. But his point was we learned how to do dgx that helped us become a system company. And now you look at what Nvidia's done, obviously you know the muscle memory that they built. But I think to your point, getting through the entire process, and you raised a very, very good point of building a team that is resilient, that is passionate, that understand what it's going to take to go build the next one is just immeasurable.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed. And I think that's where you get to it. On any product you build. If you don't start with the team first, Rene, and a team that's aligned to a vision, I don't think you get to that resilience over time. I think it's just kind of pieced together portions and the team doesn't grow and then the products won't grow behind it either.

Speaker A: Was the vision clear for what you guys were doing, you think to the employees? Did the employees kind of understand the big picture you guys were trying to do?

Speaker B: You're talking 14 years ago back to that. Yeah, I think it was. If I were to being uh, vocally self critical, thinking back, I would say there were plenty of things we could have done better. But I think it is important to plant that flag on the mission and make sure people want to be part of that. And at that time it was clear. Now was it right? I think we could debate if it was right. But was it clear? I think we were pretty explicitly clear on what we were trying to do. It's why we had started that product. Think of this. No supply chain, no manufacturing, no real procurement. We partnered with Nvidia at the time. They didn't really have an ARM part yet if you remember. I mean that was you. So like. And we made all these bets and 19 months later, 18 months later we were shipping. You can't do that unless you're very clear on what your vision and mission are. But I also think, and by the way, what a tremendous feat by that team and I work with many of them still today. I would say it may not have been right, it may have been too ambitious or too early. But I would be dismissive of all that because I would still say as long as it's clear, uh, even if it's wrong. Now I've learned some valuable lessons. Amazon talks about one way and two way door decisions and you want to be right on the one way door decisions like the ones you just can't turn back from. But on the two way door decisions I think it's okay to work faster with your instinct, use as much data as you have and if you don't have more data, make the call. And if you can come back to it when you do have more data, I think that's the definition of great leadership. And so if you tie it back to those days, I think a lot of what we did were two way door decisions, uh, because you can just see at the end of the day you were able to learn and continue for sure.

Speaker A: How do you get alignment across an engineering team for how to execute on the vision? One of the things that I spend a lot of time here at arm, our CFO Jason Child is ex Amazon and we use the one way door, two way door language quite a bit,

Speaker B: uh, between, I mean it's very powerful.

Speaker A: It's very, very powerful. And then when we kind of get into, okay, if we're in a two way door world, you may be pivoting, you may be coming in the door and going out the door, et cetera, et cetera. Some people say, look, that kind of change is too much churn. I can't get my head around it. But if people are aligned with the big picture, they get comfortable with the two way doors. And I just curious, Panos and your leadership because you've done an amazing job both at Microsoft and Amazon. What's your secret to get alignment?

Speaker B: There are two things and I want to talk about leadership for a minute and two way door decision making and how important that is because it works really well when your leaders uh, come with empathy and self reflection and the ability to be self critical as well as your teams. So we should come back to it because I think it's an important leadership portion. But to answer the question, to be fair to it, I would say there are two things that matter most to me in what I think we need to do. Maybe three. But one is have a vision and mission that's super clear and you can't over communicate it. As a matter of fact, if you only say it once, it doesn't mean anything. And some people say, well, you repeat yourself. P. You repeat yourself. I'm like, yeah, but I think that matters a lot more than worrying about if you've communicated enough. Over communicating is a big deal. And that mission and vision. So that's bucket number one. But in that bucket it has to be tied to what your customer outcome is. It has to be, it has to be Renee, like what is it that you're doing for the customer in your vision? And if you can get those things right, then it comes down to product level missions versus kind of the overarching vision that you're driving. So you're driving this whole company. You have several product lines underneath your company, several different platforms that you work off processing nodes have changed and are different. I'm not the expert in the depth of all you're doing right now, but ultimately you have the vision. But then at the mission level or at the product level, if you want to go learn, that's also very important. Then I go into product principles which are really important. And this is for like when how do you align an engineering team? I like saying more. It's not just engineering, it's engineering Marketing design. So then I say product team. You make sure the team feels like a team. That you don't have this separation of planning and engineering and marketing design. User research is different and uh, customer service is different. Like the whole team needs to be on the same vision mission. They have to feel that way. And then ultimately when you're on the product level, you start that team thinks about what's the one thing we're all delivering together and is everybody unbelievably clear and you cannot waver from it. And that's your one way door decision.

Speaker A: Do you do that through emphasis of culture, dynamics and or organizational structure? Are they bright lines or loose lines?

Speaker B: They're loose. I don't think they're bright at all. I think you have to be adaptable depending on who your leaders are.

Speaker A: I totally agree.

Speaker B: Sometimes to be clear, you're perfect with cultural delivery. And uh, it works. It should work. You know, great organizations, it shouldn't matter how they're structured at the end of the day because the culture is so strong. That said, you know, there are those times, Renee, you gotta be realistic. There are those times where you have to pull the lever and change the team or change the org, not the team, the people who's responsible for what or where. Is it better to align to get and. But that's usually for speed. It's not about alignment. It's more about what's the best way to speed up. So I don't stray away from that. But it's definitely not the hammer. I know how to fix this. Where's the nail? And I don't think it works that way. It's really an art for sure.

Speaker A: I'm a big believer in the same thing. I've been the CEO of ARM for four years and been running kind of the core IP business for almost 10. I think we've done one work change and what we do is we do God, that's impressive.

Speaker B: By the way.

Speaker A: I try to tweak them for speed.

Speaker B: How many years?

Speaker A: Uh, 10.

Speaker B: That's impressive.

Speaker A: Yeah, 10.

Speaker B: Okay. You get a gold star for that.

Speaker A: Well, the main reason Pano is if we're aligned on the vision, then the reporting line should not be super critical.

Speaker B: You would hope not.

Speaker A: Unless they're making you go really slow. And if there's just something in the mechanics in the machinery that says, you know what efficiency is now being compromised by the way I've set up the organization, then I've got to go off and make that change.

Speaker B: I get that. I get that. This is why vision and mission are so important. And by the way, I'm not saying I'm an expert at it at all. I need to say that like, I've been humbled so many times in the spirit of like just being wrong or holding onto something a little bit too long. But I do think like, you know, I just, I'm sitting here thinking about all my product groups today, my teams, my different teams, and then the collective team and like where I can be better or not better. I won't talk about that, but I definitely know like there's always room to be better. And it's back to the leadership point. I think your best leaders and you go to two way doors, even one way door, but the best leaders are the ones that can make the decision and, or paint the picture. But willing, be willing to. If new data comes in or new understanding comes in, or a new customer profile changes, or the world changes, it flips on its head because of AI or whatever it is, best leaders are the ones that can stop and say, okay, I have new info. Whether it was one way or two way door. Like this is where you pause, you look up and you go, I'm willing to, you know, you have to be willing to. And it hurts, you know, because it kind of is a pride thing or, you know, it's definitely humbling. And you, you have to be able to stop and say, we're changing course. It's okay. I was wrong. And I think those are the best leaders on the planet. The ones that had a vision and had a mission were really clear. We're running door. The flag was planted. Super clear. You knew the one thing on the product you were building. It was unbelievably right. Take this back to your arm example back in the day. It was just too early. Make the call, make the call, make the change. Doesn't mean put it away. Take all the learnings, take every bit of learning and maybe even put it a little bit on the back burner until it's time, depending on the product. And then I think that's where you find your best leadership. And then I think your teams appreciate the truth of that. I believe the team always does. I've been blessed to be part of so many great teams and I find myself following at a level that I can't quite understand because you're just there all the time, uh, trying to keep up with your own team. That is so good. And part of that is the willingness to know if you're on the wrong course to be Able to. It's a little bit off from what we were just talking about, but it's important part of it. You can't just hold now for you 10 years and one work change. I gotta tell you, man, I'm blown away.

Speaker A: I'm not sure that's a good thing or a bad thing.

Speaker B: I think it's phenomenal. Plus you guys are doing so well, so I think it shows something that's really important.

Speaker A: One of the things that is so amazing about AI is obviously the pace that it moves. The things it's going to unlock go on and on about this. But you probably feel this even more than I do in the sense that we're involved in intellectual property, developing chips, et cetera, et cetera. The time it takes to develop our end quote hardware relative to the pace of AI, it's out of balance now. There's a lot of ways I can compensate for that because our chips are programmable. Software helps. But in your world where you're managing physical things, building physical things, you're building the next thing, there's just a time lag in just how long it takes to build end quote stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How do you manage through that? How do you think about what the next big thing is going to be when by the time your thing is out there? The AI capability of what software can have it do has moved so quickly.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a couple ways. The first is the cloud's a beautiful thing, you know, and the delivery mechanisms that AWS brings for. Let's talk about Alexa for a minute where, you know, it's such a strongly based, cloud based product that the endpoints themselves can deliver a lot of promise for our customers right now. And we're doing that. You don't want to necessarily wait. What's the next form factor? What's the next piece of hardware and design to that? I think when you have hundreds of millions of customers, which we do right now, you have to deliver as fast as you can with the rapid turns of AI technology and what's coming down the pipe. And we're doing that, you know, we've been releasing every week on Alexa, uh, the updates on Kindle, the updates on Fire tv, the updates on Ring. It's about, you know, the customers have their products today, but how do you deliver the value that they would expect in an inherently kind of AI forward world that we're living in. Think, uh, about Ring for a minute. You have a Ring camera. You have one up now. Um, each Ring camera out there can deliver what's called ring video descriptions. And by the way, these are life changing if you haven't used them.

Speaker A: What is it? I'm not familiar with what it is.

Speaker B: Yeah, so ring video descriptions, this is just a. There's an element of AI that, uh, we've delivered to our customers. But to your point of like, it wasn't about waiting for the next generation of hardware. It's how we basically use the cloud. Fundamentally be able to deliver the best value possible to our customers using the latest AI tech. And here's uh, what a ring video description is. Instead of saying there's a person at this camera, which is what you would see now from a notification, and you would argue like, those notifications are pretty antiquated. And you kind of go, God, how many more times are you going to tell me there's a person? But now it says there are two people walking on your driveway. One them has a shovel. You're like, uh, what, it's not snowing out. This happened. This happened like a week ago. I'm like, what the hell's going on? Why does somebody have a shovel on my driveway? Uh, turns out it was my son planting something. But, you know, so I go, I'm like, oh, now I'm going to open this thing. And when you think of that. And there was another one. Uh, here's one personal. I have my. So I use ring cameras everywhere. And what, uh, an incredible product. But it got about a thousand times better because we were watching the Mariners game, my son and I. It was a playoff game and my wife was out of town and there was a huge moment.

Speaker A: So you're not a Dodgers fan anymore?

Speaker B: Yeah, not anymore. Not anymore. So, I mean, I, um, am. I call it okay, Dodgers are great, whatever. I think like, I don't want to offend everybody in la, but I will tell you, like, no, Mariners, man. Mariners. Oh my God, I'm so in love with the team. But my wife called and she said, I just got a notification that said two people are jumping up and down on the couch. What happened? What's going on? Is everything okay? And I said, well, did you open the camera? She goes, yeah, but she goes, what were you doing? What? And I go, oh, boy. You weren't watching the game. You know, but just to think for a minute, like the details that come in, something like that, that there are two people jumping up and down on the couch. Okay. It's kind of funny story, but it does start to transform, like delivering real time value to our customers. So important that Said I think it's also important to start to predict where people are going and use the time that you have, Renee, to develop the silicon, whether that's your edge based in innate, whatever you're creating just relative to your architecture, which I don't want to be the person to lay it out, um, on a podcast that you don't want people to hear. But I think from a roadmap standpoint, but same thing, we look at hardware for the future and where is AI going to be and what devices are people going to want. And you think about Alexa, you think about Ring Fire tv, Kindle, Blink, Eero. What we can do for people in their homes I think does change over time and it's transformative but we can deliver that value. Right now I believe that's what team's

Speaker A: mission is without exposing our mutual roadmaps. Is the cloud always our friend or does some of that stuff happen locally either for latency security?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's hybrid architectures in the future for sure. There's no sense in saying that's not the case. However, yes, the cloud is always your friend. Like, uh, incredible. The delivery capabilities at the speed it can, but most importantly even the security profiles that come with it. I mean AWS up and down from its security nature. We were at re invent just recently and uh, you just can see the focus and care that it takes that security isn't a feature anymore. It's just part, it's part of life. Privacy, uh, isn't a feature. It should be part of the product, it's part of the process. But I would say to answer the specific question, yeah, I mean the cloud is your friend and I think it only gets stronger and more meaningful.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so too. I think there's edge benefits for security, for latency, but it's going to be a hybrid kind of world. Before we wrap up, I want to go back to the leadership and the empathy point that you wanted to make because I think empathy and leadership is something that gets uh, a little lost. And I'm just curious what your perspective and what your practices are and how you, how you think about it all.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I was going back to the thing. I think your best leaders are the ones that can, that can look back, be vocally self critical and be willing to make the change. We kind of talked about it, but I would also say it all should tie to. I think the best leaders in our industry focus on a couple of things. One is, and the best teams, not the best leaders but the best teams, uh, where's your customer at today and what do they need? Like, you have to know and you have to deliver it, but at the same time, you also have to know either where they want to be getting or where they don't even know yet where they might be getting. This is where it gets trickier because it's easy to listen to a customer tell you what they don't like about the product you've shipped. And by the way, I know that feeling well. Uh, it's also easy to know what people tell you they love. And, uh, you can hear all that, and it's very clear. The hardest thing, though, is predicting what they're going to need. You know, what your customer is going to need next. And I think the best teams on the planet are thinking in both frames. They're not just listening to today, but they're predicting what the customer may need tomorrow. And they're also building tools and products that get them to tomorrow, and those might be different. And so I think if you can find that balance, um, and make sure you're not over exposing yourself to not listening to the current or thinking just about the future, I think that's the balance point for great leadership.

Speaker A: Completely agree. Um, last question, which I know the audience is burning to know the answer to, um, My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Is it accurate?

Speaker B: I gotta tell you. Uh, yeah. I think my mom, she gets so pissed when I say, yes, one of

Speaker A: my closest friends is Greek. And I will always, anytime there's a problem that we can't solve, I always tell them, just get some Windex.

Speaker B: Is that. Just spray it? Just spray it on the person. Spray. That's so. By the way, I can't agree or deny at this point. I got it. Because this is just for the sake of my mom when we talk about it, because when we do get together, my kids are like, let's watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding. And she's like, it's not. It's a good movie, but it's not real. I'm like, I don't know, Mom. I think it might be, like, spot on. I think they nailed it.

Speaker A: Vanos. Thank you.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's fun being here.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's great to see you.

Speaker B: All right, thanks, Ray.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to this month's episode of Tech Unheard. To be sure you don't miss new episodes, follow Tech Unheard wherever you get your podcasts. Until then, TechUnheard is a custom podcast series from ARM and National Public Media, and I'm ARM CEO Rene Haas thanks for listening to Tech Unheard Of.

Speaker B: Arm tech unheard is a custom podcast series from arm and national public media executive producers erica osher and shannon burner project manager colin harden creative lead producer isabel robertson editors andrew meriwether and kelly drake composer aaron levison. Arm production contributors include ami badani, claudia brandon simon, jared jonathan armstrong, ben webdell, sophia mckenzie, kristin ray, and samal shah. Tech unherd is hosted by arm chief executive officer renee haas,

Speaker A: Sam m.