Tech on Toast, The Hospitality Tech Podcast · 2026-07-08 · 39 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
60 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Ruth Carpenter joined Chris Fletcher to discuss the complexities of marketing a portfolio of premium restaurant brands - Burnt Orange, the Salt Room, Coal Shed Brighton, Tutto, the Crazy Goose, and others - operating under the BlackRock Restaurants umbrella in the Brighton and London markets. Coming from Pizza Pilgrims where she managed a single-brand, social-first marketing approach, she's adapted to a fundamentally different challenge: segmenting customer bases, running A/B tests across six distinct properties, and proving ROI to the board. The conversation centers on her partnership with Edgy (a paid social specialist) and Rachel, her digital marketing manager, who together reduced customer acquisition costs from £55 to £11 within three months by trialing different creative formats - video, food photography, and text-based ads - while tracking everything back through Seven Rooms. Ruth emphasizes the importance of merging sales and marketing teams, building loyalty networks around a hundred key customers per site, and investing in tech like Airship (CRM), Glue (gifting platform), and premium creative production that maintains brand positioning. Her core insight: talent matters more than the tools; agencies and vendors succeed when they function as genuine partners willing to collaborate rather than impose solutions.
Customer acquisition costs dropped from £55 per customer to £11 within the first three months of working with Edgy on paid social, achieved through A/B testing and optimizing video, food imagery, and text-based ad formats.
BlackRock uses Airship for CRM (push notifications), Edgy for paid social advertising, and Glue as their gifting platform for premium customer rewards delivery.
Ruth built a network of 100 most loyal customers per site, segments audiences by what they want to hear, runs A/B tests on creative, and uses trial-and-error to identify what works rather than trying to manage all brands identically.
As a premium restaurant group, maintaining visual and experiential standards is critical to brand positioning; Glue's customization, digital delivery, and premium fulfillment capabilities align with how BlackRock needs to be perceived by customers.
All paid social campaigns are tracked end-to-end through Seven Rooms booking system, allowing her to show black-and-white return on investment linked directly to customer bookings rather than relying on brand-building arguments alone.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
The episode contains several concrete insights about B2B marketing and operations - particularly the £55 to £11 cost-per-acquisition improvement, merging sales and marketing teams, and data-driven budget justification - but is heavily padded with meandering personal anecdotes, off-topic banter about sundials and Brighton tourism, and extended throat-clearing that dilutes substance. The signal-to-noise ratio is mediocre for a B2B podcast.
Before we got edgy on board we were working with this local. It was costing us about £55 per customer. Jack's got that down to £11 in the first three months.
for me it's really important that the nuts and bolts and the stuff that is less sexy on paper is working really well for us so that I can actually really think about how I drive the brand forward.
The core ideas - attributing performance to good people over tech, using data to justify marketing spend, blending sales and marketing teams - are sensible but well-trodden in B2B circles. The episode lacks contrarian takes or first-principles thinking; most framing rehashes standard playbooks around team structure and ROI tracking. The guest applies solid practice but doesn't challenge conventional wisdom.
I think that if someone is willing to be collaborative and a real partner, you will get the most out of the tech because they will build stuff for you.
it's just being accessible and I think that you can lose sight of that in a brand quite easily by price crunches
Ruth Carpenter is a legitimate practitioner - sales and marketing director at a multi-site restaurant group managing real P&L, team, and data - with genuine operating experience across two hospitality brands. She has credible decision-making authority and hands-on exposure to martech, pricing, and team dynamics. However, she is not a category founder, venture-scale operator, or widely-recognized authority, limiting her to mid-tier caliber.
I'd say since I've been at Blackrock, probably how seamlessly I was able to manage the sales and marketing team.
I'd never been a sales director
The episode includes strong specific evidence on the ad cost reduction (£55 to £11), mentions exact platforms (Airship, Edgy, Glue), provides concrete timelines (6 months at Blackrock, £2M refurb at Salt Room, 19 May opening), and cites demographic data (Salt Room customer base 65+). However, much of the conversation remains vague on strategy details, campaign performance metrics beyond the single cost-per-acquisition example, and strategic trade-offs. Evidence clusters in paid performance; weaker on brand/loyalty strategy specifics.
Before we got edgy on board we were working with this local. It was costing us about £55 per customer. Jack's got that down to £11 in the first three months.
Our customer set was around 65 plus. Um. Really? Yeah. Or like a Carluccio's, only, you know, because the price point's high.
The host (Chris Fletcher) asks reasonable setup questions but rarely pushes back, challenge claims, or dig into assumptions. Conversations meander into personal tangents (sundials, Brighton geography, university memories) without strong redirection to substance. Few probing follow-ups on critical claims - e.g., why the £55-to-£11 improvement works, what the Salt Room refurb ROI model assumes, or how team friction between sales and marketing was actually resolved. The chat feels warm but lacks journalistic rigor.
And why through content or just by knowing testing, trialing, like different.
And so he does all the heavy lifting then. So you will say we've got this much money and we've got to get. We're looking at this kind of.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
This week Chris sits down with Ruth Carpenter, Sales and Marketing Director at Black Rock Restaurants, the Brighton based collection behind Burnt Orange, The Salt Room, Coal Shed, Tutto and new pub concept The Crazy Goose. Ruth rejoins the show (she was number 32 in the harem, now back at 210) fresh from three and a half years at Pizza Pilgrims, where she helped grow the business from 16 to 31 sites. They get into what it actually takes to market six premium brands at once, why the Pizza Pilgrims one big campaign model does not translate, and how Ruth has gone properly old school by building a network of the 100 most loyal customers per site and getting under the skin of what they want. The tech chat is a good one. Ruth talks through inheriting the stack, why Airship does the CRM job, and how bringing in EDGEY took cost per customer from £55 down to £11 in three months, all trackable and wired into SevenRooms so there is no arguing about ROI at board level. Plus why she picked Glu for gifting and loyalty, and the recurring theme of the episode: you are buying into people, not just tech.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Welcome to the Tech on Toys podcast. My name is Chris Fletcher and I am your host. Uh, summer's here and your restaurant's about to get busy. Packed patios, back to back tables and fans glued to the game on every screen. Come on, Harry Kane. It's one of the most exciting times, but also one of the most demanding. When service builds onto the patio and orders start flying in, things can get chaotic fast. But what if you had a system built to keep everything flowing? Lightspeed is that system. It's a powerful epos and payments platform designed to help your team stay fast, ah, focused and in control no matter how busy it gets with tableside, staff can take orders and payments anywhere. Turntables faster and keeping guests happy. Moving to the back of house. Lightspeed KDS keeps your kitchen running smoothly so every order is clear, accurate and fired at the right time. Even during peak rush. From front of house to the kitchen, Lightspeed connects everything, helping you reduce errors, speed up service, and deliver standout guest experiences all summer long. This season, don't just keep up with the rush. Open own it with Lightspeed now. Enjoy the show.
Speaker B: We are very well known in Brighton, and if you're going to Brighton for the day, you've looked for somewhere, um, for a nice meal, you would have definitely eaten in a blackrock restaurant. It's about building a network of our hundred most loyal customers in each site and really getting under the skin of what they want from a blackrock restaurant. For me, it's really important that the nuts and bolts and the stuff that is less sexy or on paper is working really well for us so that I can actually really think about how we drive the brand forward. And that's really, as a director, what you need.
Speaker A: But I think it's fascinating that you guys can see, especially in marketing, to see that end to end result. Ruth is a former sculptor. Didn't sell loads of her product. Am I right in saying this?
Speaker B: I, uh, wasn't very talented.
Speaker A: You made a sundial. I remember this. You made a sundial?
Speaker B: Yeah. Still in Norwich? Yeah, we went to saw it the other month.
Speaker A: Did you?
Speaker B: Being graffitied.
Speaker A: Oh, really?
Speaker B: I think it's just being accessible and I think that you can lose sight of that in a brand quite easily by price crunches.
Speaker A: I do agree that I generally never make decision on price. I mean, honestly, even when I couldn't afford whatever I thought I wanted to do, it was all about the experience. Always has been for me. And I think that's the same for 9 out of 10 people. If you have a great time. You're probably gonna go back.
Speaker B: I have a strict rule. It's like, use ChatGPT to cut down your admin hours, but everything needs to have a human lens on top.
Speaker A: Does it feel very local, then, do you think?
Speaker B: If you're a BlackRock fan, you're a BlackRock fan.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: And people, like, really, like, invest in everything you're doing.
Speaker A: Welcome to next episode of the slightly chaotic Tackle Toast podcast. And today I'm gonna say rejoin. Cause you, I think you were like, number 32. Sounds terrible, doesn't it? Number 32 in my harem. And now you're reappearing at 210.
Speaker B: Oh, my God, you've been busy.
Speaker A: Yeah, I am. Um, it's Ruth Carpenter, sales and marketing director at BlackRock Restaurants. Not black Lock, as I wrote.
Speaker B: Definitely not.
Speaker A: And the questions. Ruth, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm all right. I like that you have comfort.
Speaker B: You've got to stay comfortable.
Speaker A: That's very cool.
Speaker B: I do this all the time. Even at home.
Speaker A: Ruth arrived with one earpod in saying, I've got to do a call, and was pacing up and down outside.
Speaker B: It was stressful.
Speaker A: So what are you doing? Have you been. Last time I saw you, you were at, uh, the pps, uh, Pete's Pilgrims. And prior to that, I think you'd only been there a year at that point, maybe.
Speaker B: Yeah. Then I was there for three and a half years, um, through their major turnaround, I suppose was a busy time through the business. From 16 to 31 by the time I left. Wow. Um, then left in October, took a month off, and then I've been at blackrock ever since.
Speaker A: Any sculpting in your month off?
Speaker B: Do you know what I did, actually?
Speaker A: Did you?
Speaker B: Yeah, I did. I helped a local, um, uh, studio to help out.
Speaker A: For reference, Ruth is a former sculptor. Didn't sell loads of her product. Am I right in saying this?
Speaker B: I wasn't very talented.
Speaker A: You made a sundial. I remember this. You made a sundial?
Speaker B: Yeah. Still in Norwich?
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: We went to saw it the other month.
Speaker A: Did you?
Speaker B: Being graffitied.
Speaker A: Oh, really? This is shit. And, uh. And then you had your month off, and then you've turned up back down on the coast?
Speaker B: Yeah, I've gone to Brighton.
Speaker A: Are you from Brighton originally?
Speaker B: No, I live in Lewisham.
Speaker A: Oh.
Speaker B: It's quite a new audience. I found that really interesting, like how to, uh, talk to London markets versus how to talk to Brighton.
Speaker A: And would you call it a regional market? Like, I would When I used to work in Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds type thing, it was a different type of vibe.
Speaker B: I mean they're close enough to the way Londoners think that it's unlike Leeds, Manchester, it's a much easier job than when we were opening in like completely different cities at Pete's Pilgrims. Um, but definitely their spending behaviors are different and uh, how they react to social content and marketing collateral in general is different really.
Speaker A: And if you just found that out over time, I suppose or by finding out. Trial and error.
Speaker B: Yeah, trial and error. A lot of trial and error. I've been there six months and I have to say that I've learned a lot. Like what would work always be learning. Ruth definitely doesn't work at Blackrock.
Speaker A: Really? That's so interesting. Isn't it mad how brands have their own even though from a consumer's point of view you might think, oh, they're quite similar. They do. They're a similar type vibe, similar type people in the rap, but actually very, very different in the way they reach the market and the way they manage it.
Speaker B: And different for me because I've gone from like a really casual pizza brand that has a lot of fun and is really strong on social, has a great story to like a really premium. Yeah, um, business that.
Speaker A: Well, tell us about the Premium. What is BlackRock for those who don't know who BlackRock is like AI, um, tell us, tell us a bit about it. Like what sites you have and because it's not just one brand. Right.
Speaker B: You know you're a collection of restaurants. Uh, we are very well known in Brighton and if you're going to Brighton for the day and you've looked for somewhere, um, for a nice meal, you would have definitely eaten in a Blackrock restaurant.
Speaker A: Do you know I've never been to Brighton.
Speaker B: Pardon me? Honest Sarah, that is a sin.
Speaker A: Honestly, never been. I don't know why. We had a Carluches there as well and normally that means I would have been there. I don't think I've ever been there.
Speaker B: We'll have to go for lunch.
Speaker A: I've been to Worthing. Is that near Brighton?
Speaker B: Yeah, right next door.
Speaker A: That's about my uni mate was there.
Speaker B: Why would you end up in Worthing and not go to Brighton?
Speaker A: Because my best, my mate at uni lived in Worthing, his parents did, so we went to visit him once.
Speaker B: Did you not stroll?
Speaker A: Maybe we did. Is it far down from Worthing?
Speaker B: It's about a 15 minute stroll.
Speaker A: Oh probably, probably went there but that's it. I'VE never like as a.
Speaker B: Well, we'll go for adult. You need to sort that out.
Speaker A: We'll come and visit. Sorry, carry on explaining.
Speaker B: So we own brands like Burnt Orange, um, the Salt Room, Coal Shed, Brighton. Um, we've got an Italian concept called Tutto and we've just opened our first like, pub concept, which is called the Crazy Goose.
Speaker A: Oh, I saw that. There was a big hurrah about that on LinkedIn, wasn't there?
Speaker B: Yeah, it's. They're really nice brands. Um, and I guess what's the difference is that they, uh, really approach, um, everything they do from really talking about quality and, um, customer experience and it being a special occasion when you come to a Blackrock restaurant and it's that level of polish that is that quite
Speaker A: fun though, to be able to, uh. Do you have to individualize the marketing then potentially to each brand?
Speaker B: Basically marketing for six brands at all times.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker B: Um, so it's very different approach at Peter Pilgrims we do one big campaign, it would hit all of our sites. Obviously this is extremely tame.
Speaker A: Yeah. Because founders think it's fun, Right. To open loads of brands, don't they? So I have multiple brands, whereas the team are like, which one are we doing today? So, yeah. So you're laughing, you're nodding. Okay.
Speaker B: Crying aside, but laughing and is.
Speaker A: And you have a favorite out of the. What, uh, happens. There's six different.
Speaker B: There's six different.
Speaker A: So he's asking which is your favorite kid and you can't really do that.
Speaker B: Oh, easy. Burnt Orange.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: Yeah. But to match your head, I think, uh, we've just about to do a 2 million pound refurb on the salt route.
Speaker A: Wow.
Speaker B: Which is 12 years old. Um, and I'm really excited about it.
Speaker A: So talk me a bit more about getting into. Because you talked about the Brighton local who, uh, visit you and I'm guessing people around from Worthing probably come as well. My mate Gary. Um, but how do you get under the skin of that? How do you know kind of how to market to those people? I know we talked about trial and error, but is there a particular, uh, avenue you're using or is there a channel you use that's more successful than others?
Speaker B: I think it's completely different approach to Pizza Pilgrims. We've had to go quite old school with it. It's about building a network of our hundred most loyal customers in each site and really getting under the skin of what they want from a Blackrock restaurant or their favourite restaurant. So we've done a lot around segmenting what our guests actually want to hear about and how we tailor our approach to marketing to them. We've held lunches where we've got them in and hosted a lunch.
Speaker A: Almost like under the skin, customer workshop type thing.
Speaker B: Exactly. Of what they want. Um, we've got. Definitely done a bit of spray and pray as well.
Speaker A: Nothing wrong with it. Spray and pray.
Speaker B: Yep. Sometimes it's needed just to see what works. A lot of AB testing. Uh, but really, like, starting from the ground up of like, what do I. Who is our customer? And actually, I guess that piece of work really fueled this refurb at Salt Room because in some of our restaurants, our audience is not as diverse as we need it to be to survive for the future.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So we're really having to look at brands which have maybe aged with us too far. Uh, which was Salt Room.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, and how do we really bring. And bring it back to younger audience as well as still make that core.
Speaker A: It's fascinating, isn't it, the life of a restaurant, if you think about an independent. Because effectively you've got independent restaurants amongst the brand. Right. And I think it's fascinating to look at, like your local Italian that's been there forever. And you. Sometimes you drive past like, how the hell. When all I hear is doom and gloom everywhere about everything. That that guy at Vicenzo's and the top of my street in Caerphilly is still there after 15 years. It's because they know their customer. And I'm sure they don't have elaborate marketing, um, teams or anything like that, but I think it's just because that, look, they really get what their customers are. And I'm guessing to do that for multiple brands is a bit more tricky.
Speaker B: Yeah. It's taken me a good six months to really get under the skin of what a marketing strategy should be. And then also being really smart with. The reality is you can't look after every brand the same way at the same time because you would burn out. We've still got quite a small team
Speaker A: for how many restaurants, how many in your team?
Speaker B: So there's seven of us, but half of them are sales managers and half of them work on the marketing team. So that is very much split. Um, but we've merged the two teams. Um, which has been incredible, actually. Um, probably the smartest move we could have done. Um, but yeah, it is tricky, uh, because you can't look after every child equally.
Speaker A: Oh, tell me about that. Just had one in tears, I feel so honestly, whenever I'm away, it's Always the same. And you know, I'm going to ask this question, you must have some tech. I'm interested in your tech choices. Well, they're not your choices. Right.
Speaker B: Let's put that I have inherited.
Speaker A: Some of you. You've inherited. I know one of them you did inherit. Yeah. Because I recognized that name and I thought, oh, yeah, that's only come from you. So talk us about. Because I think the challenges around Martech or whatever they call it, um, is interesting, Martin, because it seems quite a fluid market run. There's a lot of stuff around, a lot of people saying, this is the best, this is the best, this is the best. And I'm fascinated that we worked with, Remember Patronics, remember them knocking about, um, the American thing. And they were like a big, I suppose for Pete's Pilgrim in 10 years. Not even for now. It's like for the big enterprise guys. But what are you using in terms of CRM? What have you got?
Speaker B: You got airship.
Speaker A: Ah, okay. So you were there and. And that's not uncommon. Right. There's a lot of people using airship.
Speaker B: I feel like every man and his dog in hospitality.
Speaker A: Dan. Dan's fault.
Speaker B: Yeah, he's good at marketing.
Speaker A: He really is good at marketing. Him and Sam. Yeah, probably two of the best. But. And so airship. And then what do you use for, um, do you do much paid social or.
Speaker B: Yeah, we use edgy, which I did actually bring in my first mum. Um, and he's actually worked with my colleague Rachel, who's digital marketing manager.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: Um, and that's actually been transformative for the business. When we joined, we were using a local, bless his soul. Chris.
Speaker A: His name is Chris.
Speaker B: His name was Chris. He was really like an expert in Google Ads, but he didn't really understand the meta, um, space. He. That just wasn't.
Speaker A: I mean, Sarah's behind the camera here, but we hate ppc. Literally. I want to do it, but I can. Um, and Jack won't do business yet. He'll only do you guys first. He won't do B2B yet.
Speaker B: He.
Speaker A: He's coming soon, apparently, tells me. But, um, he is in such a specialized market because I think, hey, I don't care about AI or anything, honestly. That's difficult to get it. To get it right. Do you know what I mean? You've got to spend a lot of money. I don't even want to know what you're spending, but I guess you invest quite heavily into it as a proportion of your budget.
Speaker B: It's enough. But we're still not spending probably half as much as someone like the Alchemist is spending with Jack. Um, but I think the biggest success story on him, just to give Jack a little shout out.
Speaker A: Listens everybody.
Speaker B: Before we got edgy on board we were working with this local.
Speaker A: He.
Speaker B: It was costing us about £55 per customer.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Um. From them to click from spending your money to get. So they paid their bill. £55 for that was going back to like ad fees.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And then we might make like 20 quid. Jack's got that down to £11 in the first three months.
Speaker A: Uh, and why through content or just
Speaker B: by knowing testing, trialing, like different.
Speaker A: He's in a unique position, isn't he? Because he's working with so many restaurant brands now that I'm guessing internally they've like we've got this down.
Speaker B: But the most reassuring thing and the way that I've been able to secure this cash at board level is that it's all trackable so there's no. None of that. Trying to prove that selling the magic, the return of investment. It's there in black and white. It's linked into seven rooms. There's no fucking about an argument about.
Speaker A: It's fascinating. We're spending a lot of time internally actually tech onto trying to prove what the work we're doing for our partners because we're like, we don't want to have calls. Oh yeah. We're just really good and really nice people. It needs to be something you can go, look, there's your return. That's what we did. And I think um, because of AI we're going to be able to do it quite quickly. But I think it's fascinating that you guys can see, especially in marketing to see that end to end result. Because it's hard. Right. For you guys. I think sometimes you do a lot of um, magic words, jazz hands, pizza
Speaker B: pilgrims like to prove it because we weren't using someone that had an end to end tracking capability built in.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So it's been normally paid is my biggest bugbear. And that's the thing that I.
Speaker A: How are you. So if you take Jack out the equation, could you do on your own. No, no.
Speaker B: Absolutely no idea what sorcery he does. But he has a brain that my brain does not like. Does not compute, does not understand. Yeah.
Speaker A: And so he does all the heavy lifting then. So you will say we've got this much money and we've got to get. We're looking at this kind of.
Speaker B: I can't take any credit. It's my wonderful digital marketing manager.
Speaker A: You can. It's kind of your job just to take that credit.
Speaker B: Yeah, no, uh, she has done all the legwork.
Speaker A: Rachel's been managing Jack. But do you provide the content or does he do that as well?
Speaker B: So we will provide the content but he will give us a really tight brief he needs. Um, so it really is collaborative and I think we're just about to get even better return because. As we give him better content.
Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, because you're learning too right? I guess. Yes.
Speaker B: And also we just don't have the resource in house at the moment.
Speaker A: And what is it?
Speaker B: We just bought that in.
Speaker A: Do you do. Is it stuff like, I mean, I don't know, what are the ads? Is it like um, book this, do that type of thing?
Speaker B: At the moment they're a mix of video content to amazing food shots, to very much text based ads and then they trial and error what ones are actually driving like the bits so you
Speaker A: can see side by side.
Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and any that are underperforming we will turn off and invest more money into the ads that are working. But it really does need that lens from someone like edgy that understand what's working, what's not. And also Rachel to push that engine forward because it's.
Speaker A: He says to me, he said, I spoke to my a while ago and he said, you've got, you've got to give me some money, Chris.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: He goes, you've got to try and like really go for it. He goes, I'll get your results but you can't half. Ah. I think, well, I've done the past, I put 500 quid here, 500 quid there, tried it and gone on. It doesn't work.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But you've got. He said you've got to jump in.
Speaker B: It's a long lead plan. And I think that's where they have really like helped like strengthen uh, our voice at board level around securing more cash for paid ads.
Speaker A: That's key. Right. You've mentioned that twice. So it must be something that's important to you that actually when you sit in that room amongst those people that you actually have your own bit your flag in the sand to say this is what we did, this is what we spent, this is what we got.
Speaker B: Yeah. Because otherwise it falls on deaf ears. You don't secure the cash that you need to for the year ahead. You then end up spending that money anyway on something that's not working and then you can do less fun shit. So it's like for me it's really important that the nuts and bolts and the stuff that is less sexy on paper is working really well for us so that I can actually really think about how we drive the brand forward. And that's really, as a director, what you need.
Speaker A: And that's what you'd argue when you hear about AI and all this stuff coming in that actually everyone keeps. I remember the phrase that everyone uses in tech on toast, text and enabler. I want to punch myself in the face saying it so many times. But that is the point, right? That the point is talented people in their roles, like you have stuff around them, whether it's an edgy or whether it's a bit of a kit, CRM, whatever that enables you to make better brand decisions and grow the brand. That's your job.
Speaker B: I think external agencies are ah, there to make you look good and if they're not and you're having to pull them up, then fucking hell, get rid of them because you're just going to have way too many headaches.
Speaker A: That's a really good point. And what else have you got? So you've got edgy, I mean the edgy show welcome. You've got airship. Sorry Dan, you didn't get as much airtime. You mentioned something else. What's glue? You mentioned glue.
Speaker B: Yeah. So we've just onboarded glue as our um, gifting platform.
Speaker A: Well now you're going to upset Toggle now aren't you?
Speaker B: But the reason why we went with glue is because it's just so, because the name's cool and also it's just really premium, um, for the customer and the customization and the way that it can be delivered to customers digitally and fulfillment uh wise is.
Speaker A: And I guess that's quite a big deciding factor actually when you're working in premium that you actually you need to purvey. What?
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: When I was asking about the content before with Jack, how much control is he allowed? And I bet you guys like this is what we, this is how we need to be kind of purveyed. You can't really do that yourself on Canva. You need to, this is how it
Speaker B: needs to be our graphic designer.
Speaker A: That's what I mean. So that high end, I guess with glue, to be able to deliver it in that premium way is kind of super important for you guys.
Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. And we spoke to. Do you know what? I really wanted to go with Lee. I think Laurens is amazing and like
Speaker A: him, Lawrence is tall, Dutch and doesn't wear socks.
Speaker B: So Just so you know, I like techno music.
Speaker A: He does love techno music.
Speaker B: Um, I really like, love his energy. I love how passionate he is about.
Speaker A: It's, uh, interesting, isn't it, how you said, actually the last three things you've bought or mentioned, you've mentioned the people, not the tech.
Speaker B: I think you're buying into people, though.
Speaker A: We agree, we agree, but I think it's. I don't think many people out it normally, but actually you just said it three times.
Speaker B: I think that if someone is willing to be collaborative and a real partner, you will get the most out of the tech because they will build stuff for you.
Speaker A: 100% agree.
Speaker B: And I don't think that people see the potential in tech. You kind of got to make friends with people and then go, could you build this for me, please?
Speaker A: Honestly, I built my career on it. That's all I've ever done. Just like me and you met. M. I don't even know how we met. But, um, I just think you don't know why, how. But we did. And, and you become mates. M. Right. Work. It's work mates and it's like. But it's important because, um, when you need that person or when, you know, relationships are hard or whatever that's going on in your, in your professional world, you need those people to lean on. It's a lonely place. Right.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Because you can't really lean on your
Speaker B: colleagues and when it goes wrong, it's your fault.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So you need to get people to on your side and really buy into your brand to help you when things aren't working.
Speaker A: And I agree, actually, all three of them, Dan, Lawrence and. And Jack, actually, people, people, they're all. And they're all smart. They're all smart guys who are very heavily invested in their product, but more in their customers, which is something they all trips off their tongue constantly. They just talk about the customers. Fascinating. What else you got? Anything else?
Speaker B: Um, we're using glue for our loyalty platform.
Speaker A: What do you do for your loyalty then? Do you do. Is it like tiered or how does it work?
Speaker B: Well, I'd love to tell you, but it's a big old secret.
Speaker A: Oh, is it really?
Speaker B: It's going to be a multi, um, site loyalty scheme that, uh, would be tiered very much around experiences. So we want people really feel like they are part of the brand. Especially as we are Brighton based. Most of our customers are very loyal customers that have, uh, strong return visits.
Speaker A: Does it feel very local then? Do you think you're.
Speaker B: If you're A black rock fan. You're a black rock fan.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: And people, like, will really, like, invest in everything you're doing.
Speaker A: Would he take it out of Brighton?
Speaker B: I mean, we have one in London Bridge. Um, but she's a bit of a. Like, she. She needs some help.
Speaker A: An outlier.
Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, great food, great team. But because it's not brightened, I think the translation has landed.
Speaker A: No, I think, again, it's challenging. Brand is super fascinating. Right. Because sometimes when a brand's grown locally, even though it's different, uh, badges on each brand, people know. Right. Like you said, the locals know. They know that it's Blackrock.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: And I think when you come out of that little geography bubble, all of a sudden it becomes more challenging. I'm sure you will have seen it with Peter Pilgrims when you first left London, that actually people are like, who are you, M? You know, and you get that same treatment. So it is interesting to see how things succeed. Or not.
Speaker B: I.
Speaker A: What was the first one that went out of London? Pizza Pilgrims.
Speaker B: Was it Oxford? But it's closed now.
Speaker A: Yeah, Oxford. Oxford College.
Speaker B: And then second was Brighton, which was my first opening.
Speaker A: The one with the football pitch. It's just weird. I don't.
Speaker B: I walk past every day now. It's quite. We walked.
Speaker A: There's one here, actually, as we walked in here, uh, just down the road here on the right.
Speaker B: Brick Lane.
Speaker A: Is that what it is? Brick Lane? Yeah, we see it all the time. I always think of you. Uh, anyway, and tell us a bit more about the salt room refurbishment. So it was driven by the fact that you had better data, or your data was telling you that actually we need to support a new breed of customers.
Speaker B: Our data was showing us that we very much needed to support a new breed of customer. So our customer set was around 65 plus. Um.
Speaker A: Really?
Speaker B: Yeah. Or like a Carluccio's, only, you know, because the price point's high. It's amazing. Locally caught fish cooked over fire. The concept is simple, but it's also expensive.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, and we wanted to work with fish suppliers that really, like, valued quality and ethically sourced fish as well. So that comes with a higher price tag, which meant that we'd driven ourselves into either being only affordable to people with a huge disposable income, which is the older demographic, or for special occasions. So on weeks, like.
Speaker A: Yeah, it really limits you, doesn't it?
Speaker B: Packed for Christmas, packed. But for the rest of the year, Tuesday afternoon, in those day parts, um, they tried many things and I think the quality Wasn't quite there and the interiors was looking quite tired because it had been open for around 12 years. So when I joined, um, we very much had aspirations to refurb it, which then we closed in Jan. Um, and then for the last three to four months now, we've been really working on how we bring the salt Room into.
Speaker A: Ooh, what have you done then? Brand wise, what have you done? So is it a shift from the actual what it looked like before or is it.
Speaker B: So the brand landing? Um, we've really landed on like a much younger, more colorful, like brand guideline style. We've completely refurbed the interior so it should feel like you're in the Riviera for an hour on your lunch break. It's stunning. It's got now a completely weatherproof terrace so you can sit out there rain or shine. Um, which will be the first in Brighton. I didn't realize that.
Speaker A: Really.
Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, we've got first weather booth or first.
Speaker A: Can't be the first terrace in Brighton.
Speaker B: Weatherproof terrace. Um, and yeah, it's just a really beautiful space and I think that it will be very popular for weddings and special occasions still. Um, but we're really trying to get that younger audience in by having like sunset sessions on the terrace. M. We want the menu to feel like you can come in and have amazing crudeaux and like lovely and leave and only spend like £25 or you can stay for your absolute like blowout dinners. Um, we want it to feel very much like a space where you can have many experiences in one one area. So the bar now is standalone. You can just have a couple of cocktails if you wanted and bar snacks.
Speaker A: It's very interesting. So I was in Dublin. I'm gonna tell you a story, um, last last week, dunno, two weeks ago, uh, for an Irish thing called Felcher. It's. It means. It means welcome in Irish. Um, anyway, uh, but it was funded by the government and they brought a load of brands on stage and it was. Have you heard of. So there's a guy who owns this thing called Saba in Dublin. I think he's got six sites and he talked about accessibility of say all these high end. You think about the Harrods and all these places, you can't go. Ah, you can't go there because you can't afford it.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: As a normal dude or whatever. But they're all working really hard on, um, being able to have a Harrods experience for a lower price point or a Saba experience as he Talked about for a lower price point to kind of bring people into the web, which is exactly what you were just talking about. So enabling people to come and try your, uh, venue. Not the price ticket that your 65 pluses might try, but more on something that can have a little bite, they can have something to eat and out again and get out again. So that experience, that kind of different angle, I think that sounds really familiar to what I was hearing in Dublin the other week.
Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's just being accessible and I think that you can lose sight of that in a brand quite easily by price crunches or rising like, um, living wages and all that shit that we're hit with every year.
Speaker A: You should be Prime Minister.
Speaker B: I should.
Speaker A: This is shit. I'd definitely vote for you. I think it'd be a laugh for a year probably. Then we'd probably have to get rid of you.
Speaker B: Yeah, I'd probably get sacked a few
Speaker A: bloody.
Speaker B: How quickly can I swear on national tv? Um, so, yeah, it's just about making sure that people feel really comfortable and that you protect experience above everything else. Um, and I think it's really easy to get lost in just putting prices up. Putting prices up, layering on price to mask.
Speaker A: So difficult. It's so difficult, right, because I think that if you're in that position where you've got to survive, right, because people love you and people come to you, but you've, I mean, internally, you've got to survive, you've got to pay the bills. So I understand the pressure on the operators to go to price, but I do agree that I generally never make decision on price. I mean, honestly, even when I couldn't afford whatever I thought I wanted to do, it was all about the experience, always has been for me. And I think that's the same for 9 out of 10 people. If you have a great time, you're probably going to go back.
Speaker B: And I say this to my sales team all the time. It's like, are you going to hold out for a 4k minimum spend, exclusive hire, or would you rather take £450? But it'd be busy and people have a great time and tell their mate. It's about having that flex of like, yeah, okay, we want those higher price ticket bookings, but also you can't shy away from then never accepting wedding. For someone that wants to get married next weekend because they've just had terrible news and they need to get married quickly. Yeah, we've had lots of those things where it's just like, you need to put experience and customer service.
Speaker A: Liverpool, we call that a shotgun wedding for different reasons.
Speaker B: Yeah, you just. You need to be human about it still. But the ultimate goal is that sales need to be. Be there to pay for all the fun stuff. Yeah, I think, I think it shouldn't be exclusive.
Speaker A: I think there's a scientific way behind it because you think about the Jack. Jack's job almost or the social person's job that actually the great experiences need to be shared. Right. So everyone needs to see them. M and 10 years ago we couldn't do that, or 15 years ago couldn't do that, but now we can. So a great experience for a lower price tag will lead to someone paying 65, you know, whatever, plus next time they visit. So. Yeah, it's very interesting. And when's that open?
Speaker B: It's opening officially on the 19th of May.
Speaker A: Oh my God. Like last night Soon.
Speaker B: Yeah, we've got the beach party this Saturday. Uh, no way.
Speaker A: And Sarah were just checking our email for our invites, but I couldn't see it. No. Bit like bills. We didn't get the bills invite. James, if you're listening, Sasha, I'm only your mentor. Uh, anyway, um, so AI is no one's. I feel like everyone's switched off already. Um, AI is like everywhere. I'm so bored of saying that as well. It's a bit like my other things that I can't be bothered with. But, um, is it creeping into your world? I know it's in your product anyway, probably. But are you using Claude or ChatGPT or anything like that internally?
Speaker B: ChatGPT? Our best friend.
Speaker A: Right, okay.
Speaker B: Um, he is a colleague, deserves a pay rise. He is the hardest working on my team. Um, no, we love it, but I have a strict rule. It's like use ChatGPT to cut down your admin hours. But everything needs to have a human lens on top. So put in all of the ideas, all of your personal preferences, what you like and what you don't like. So it feels really like personalized. Um, and then rip it up and start again, but with a lens that they've done the heavy lifting.
Speaker A: It is. That is so true. I was talking to Matt Bella, name drop. Who's the, um, I think he's the md CEO of, um, Molly's. And he said, um, that he was getting more and more work come to his desk that had been AI'd. And he said it was becoming, you know, no frills, no this, that. He's like, oh, for God's sake. And he said and he said all I want my team to be is curious because I'm really worried that they stop being curious because they're just fixing things really quickly. He said. So the minimum required to work for Molly's is you have to be curious of anything that's been written. You have to sense, check and say would I write that? Does it make sense? Does it fit the brand?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Because the bots know a lot, but they don't know everything and they're not emotional like you.
Speaker B: Yeah. And you always just reject uh, anything that's just come straight out that no,
Speaker A: no, no thing is such a giveaway. And it used to be when the hostility landscape is dynamic. That was the other one I used to see.
Speaker B: You can always tell because people don't um, take out the emphasis, take out the really long en dashes or like the no food, no something. And it's just like guys, I'm not stupid.
Speaker A: I know and it's weird actually.
Speaker B: I know it's sneak it past me, but you can't.
Speaker A: I don't, I don't know if you're on LinkedIn. I've noticed recently. I was just scrolling the other day like you do and I was like fucking all of these posts are bullshit.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: Like I know all these people, they don't talk like that. I just think it's so weird. It's just, it's literally changing the surface of what we do. Um, so it's a little bit scary but you're using it. Have you discovered Claudia, have you used much of Claude?
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Okay, I'm gonna blow your mind. Not now. But Claude design, check it out. So where you use chat, GBT and probably Canva together maybe I don't know if you use that in the team but Claude design will blow all of out the window.
Speaker B: Do you know what?
Speaker A: Crazy.
Speaker B: I don't want to ever use it for like design because do you know
Speaker A: I know the creativity. Yeah, I know.
Speaker B: It's just that art degree of mine poor that are just go in there
Speaker A: in a dark room, quietly on your own, just have a little go and just see what you think. But you'll do that. So my designer Jack is Jacques, um, who does all our stuff for tech on toast. I hate giving his name away because people use him but he um, he is ah, he found out about it the night went out. He came around me when we seen it and I was like yeah. And he went okay. And then he went off the phone. He went off. But he's actually come around to it thinking, you know what, I can be faster and better at what I do with my head in this.
Speaker B: That's it.
Speaker A: Not this. In my head.
Speaker B: I can do so much more work in a day because I'm using AI to help speed up the. The process, um, that it would be foolish to not lean into it.
Speaker A: I think I'm just going my next question here. Ruth, you're known for being deep in the data and creative in equal measure. How do you decide when a campaign needs a spreadsheet or when it needs a gut call? That's an AI question.
Speaker B: Always needs a gut call. I think you always know if an idea has legs or not for, um, sorting out. And I think every project should have a spreadsheet. I've got to say it. I never do anything without putting it in a Gantt chart. Um, and my team have layers and layers and layers of a Gantt chart.
Speaker A: Sarah built a beautiful Gantt chart last week, didn't you? Yeah.
Speaker B: I'm proud of you. Uh, but I do think that it keeps everyone on track. And I do think you're more gut
Speaker A: than tack on you. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker B: And I think that for me, it's like, you know, if an idea is good or not, like, but you don't always know how to. To make it land and amplify it.
Speaker A: I think. Yeah, I think that's the thing that's bothered me most. But I love tech. Don't get me wrong. It's m. My odd job. But, uh, I think I know me. I haven't changed in the way I operate in terms of how I can get stuff out quicker. Right. But in terms of me, what I think looks nice and good or whatever or what I like, I haven't changed my opinion and tech won't change.
Speaker B: And I think the only way that you should use tech to help that is to prove that you're right. So have the gut feel, get inspired, make the plan, and when it tells
Speaker A: you you're wrong, just go. Bullshit. I'll check the other one.
Speaker B: I. Oh, they've got a point. It's not going to work for this demographic. I haven't thought of that. So how can then I tailor my idea to sort out both.
Speaker A: Yeah. I don't like feedback, Ruth, though, especially from a.
Speaker B: Feedback's a gift.
Speaker A: Where'd you get that from? From me. Feedback is a gift. What's a marketing moment? The last 12 months, you're really proud of that you put in your showreel.
Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A: Doesn't have to be. Um, let's go further back. Let's go last five years. Is there something that you've just. Yeah. Which one? Pilgrimage two. Oh, that was the one. Yeah. The um, Sicily trip, is it? Or where'd you go? Naples. Sorry.
Speaker B: Yeah, that was my proudest moment, uh, in marketing. Uh, I'd say since I've been at Blackrock, probably how seamlessly I was able to manage the sales and marketing team.
Speaker A: It's quite a big shift as well. I was saying to someone the other day, when you go from a job that's very creative, very new, everyone's going in different directions. You kind of just gotta plow on and keep up with Tom and James. Right. Like that when that was growing. And then to go to a job that's very different in terms you've got different brands to manage, different team, brand new pace. Yeah, it must be really. And I think sometimes when you move, uh, jobs, it's a bit of a shock in it because you're quite confident in yourself thinking, I can do this. But then when you get there it's
Speaker B: like, oh, yeah, I was a bit overwhelmed, I'm not gonna lie. Um, I also was a bit cocky when I first started. I was like, ah, it's gonna be well easy.
Speaker A: You didn't say that internally, externally, did you? To people.
Speaker B: But I was a bit like, fucking hell, I've bitten off a lot.
Speaker A: But you're learning.
Speaker B: You said, I've learned so much.
Speaker A: I think it's super important.
Speaker B: I've never had sales experience before, um, so I'd never been a sales director
Speaker A: or I'd buy off you.
Speaker B: Thank you.
Speaker A: People buy people though, like you just said.
Speaker B: And I was really scared that I'd be an absolute imposter, you know. But actually a lot of sales things are very intuitive. And I said to Kathy from Pete's Pilgrims, who's their head of sales, I was like, got a newfound respect for you, Kathy.
Speaker A: Your job's easy.
Speaker B: Your job was fucking nightmare. Um, and I've like really found that out in the last six months, how intense it is.
Speaker A: No, it's quite weird doing that role as well. Sales and marketing.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Because I know people put it's very trips off the tongue, sales and marketing, doesn't it? Everyone thinks it should be together, but actually they are two very different disciplines or not because one is quite creative. I would say once I think sales, from what I see from the people who work for me who get, they get paid loads for a start, um, and loads of commission. Um, but they. Not that I'm Twisted about it. Um, but they. They seem to follow a pattern. They're quite. Even if they're quite mad. Like Chris, who works for us now, big Chris, uh, he's a little bit crazy, but he's still quite rhythmic in the way he does it. You can see I'm doing this to do that, to do this, to do that, whereas I couldn't. I can't do that. M. I couldn't do that. Can you do that?
Speaker B: It's.
Speaker A: I feel like your head's like mine.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's a bit of a scramble, but I've had to rein myself in. But bringing them together has given us power in the sense that, like, we're all working to the same objectives, same KPIs. And I think it's quite easy for sales and marketing teams to have a bit of friction because they just want to sell, sell, sell the space. I need X, Y and Z. I need this, I need that. Marketing are like, bro, I'm just trying to have a nice time, chill out. Um, bro. And, you know, there's like a real conflict of interest there because we've merged the teams. It's almost like our sales team is now saying, this is what I need and this is what I think would make us more money. The marketing team are then able to brainstorm with them. So actually it's creating a bit more of a collaborative creative.
Speaker A: It makes total sense to be together. What about ops? Got them involved yet?
Speaker B: Yeah, ops. To be honest, ops are, uh. It's so easy at blackrock, really.
Speaker A: Not like Clive Watkins and every.
Speaker B: Because it's small. Um, so.
Speaker A: Took a sec.
Speaker B: Everything. Yeah. I was like, oh, Clive. Um, so, yeah, it's. Everything's easy because they really care about it and they've had to work on the marketing side before because it was such a small agency and they've all been there for like, eight years. So actually, like, it's really easy to get them invested in it and excited about marketing and sales ideas because ultimately they just want really loved restaurants in Brighton that make money.
Speaker A: Love that. Right, last question for you and then we'll send you on your way. If, uh, you could fix one thing about how hospitality marketing works in the uk, snap of the fingers. What do you call it before you said to me about a genie or something? Or what's the thing you rub Aladdin. Uh, so if you'd rub a lamp and fix something in hospitality marketing, what do you do? Give jack edge to free to everyone.
Speaker B: I think it's just how stressy People get like, guys, we are in a shitstorm. But if you panic, you make stupid decisions.
Speaker A: And is the panic coming from there or there?
Speaker B: I think it's coming from all.
Speaker A: Everywhere.
Speaker B: Everyone's in a little bit of a flap at the moment, and I think everyone just needs to chill out.
Speaker A: I do think that if you follow a plan, and I feel Sarah's eyes burning through me when I say follow a plan, but I do think my overall plan is to, you know, help people tech. Right? That's my job. So I think if you follow that North Star, as people call it, then you generally get there if you've got good people around you. And I think. I think people are too quick making bad decisions.
Speaker B: I think they're panic decisions. And I actually just think if you just stay true to what you're. You were always trying to achieve and you're patient and you trust your team, you will get better success than how reactive the industry is becoming, um, because of sales. Uh, and so, yeah, I would just say the biggest thing that I think we could do is just chill out who you are. Chill the fuck out.
Speaker A: Love that. I've never ended a podcast, but chill the fuck out. That's brilliant. Ruth. If people want to say hi to you and see you on LinkedIn, just
Speaker B: Ruth Carpenter on LinkedIn. And you'll see Blackrock restaurants.
Speaker A: Right, okay. Well, that was the weirdest episode ever. We'll see you next week. Bye, Ruth.
Speaker B: It.
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