Beyond the visibility exercise: Sammy Allanson on winning regional retail growth

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to Talking Shop, the weekly podcast from Retail Sector. Each episode we sit down with standout leaders and change makers from across retail to unpack the career decisions, turning points and moments that shape them. We dig into what makes each guest unique, how they think, how they lead and what they've learned along the way. Expect honest stories, real challenges and practical lessons that you can apply to your own career and business business. If you like the podcast, make sure to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice. And for more information, visit retailsector.co.uk or drop us a line at podcastretailsector.co.uk.

Speaker C: hello, I'm your host Lewis, and on this episode of Talking Shop, I'm joined by Sami Allanson, client partner lead for the north of England at, uh, business change and transformation specialist Sullivan and Stanley. Today we're breaking down why the north is one of the UK's most critical retail growth eng and why conquering it requires deep local credibility rather than superficial corporate visibility exercises. We also look at Sullivan and Stanley's latest research to dissect the massive value gap in retail transformation, exploring how to tell if a project is creating genuine commercial value or just generating frantic internal activity. We also discuss why nostalgia isn't enough to save struggling high street staples and the practical changes retail bosses need to make tomorrow to escape the constant cycle of operational firefighting. Hi Sami, welcome to Talking Shop. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker A: Hi Lu, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Speaker C: So, to start, can you talk us through your career history, tell us a bit about yourself and, yeah, the work that you do in the retail space.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you. So, um, I am our client partner at Sullivan Stanley. I also lead our northern business. So as of right now, looking forward, I am building our business to become the transformation partner for intelligent enterprises in the. My history though is, um, a combination of large service integrator, uh, across multiple clients, of which a large portfolio was retail. So very operational in terms of how does technology start to enable business process and in most cases, like within operations, how do you react to when technology fails and does not enable business process? Um, so I spent a large time across operations and then started to move more into business partnering and that was actually in the policing space. So frontline policing, starting to understand what that really meant in terms of technical impact. The reality of my kind of 10 years across an SI, though was very much around what does the people centered change start to drive. Um, and that was one of the key things that I saw very clearly across like I say, my shared kind of retail portfolio. Leaving the SI, I then went into a CxO advisory for 5 years. So spent a good 5 years predominantly building out what I refer to as consumer and supply. So the entirety of the retail ecosystem, everything from retail to distribution logistics, actually extending that beyond what does the like say end to end retail look like. And what I, what I most enjoyed was being able to try and figure out how retail will operate in the future and actually where does the impact that they're seeing today really start to caused the case for change. So a bit of a varied background like I say, but generally very, very human centered and enabled by tech, not

Speaker C: led by tech M. So um, yeah, within your role today what um, maybe some of the project or things that you've worked on uh, fairly recently that maybe stand out or really interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So at the minute in terms of sudden Stanley. So I've only actually been in the business a couple of months and uh, as we start to, as I see what the portfolio has been building over the last few years, it's been really impressive. So everything from retail brands to experiential kind of environments and what that starts to look like from a hospitality perspective. So what we've delivered as a business has been really interesting in terms of digitization but led through experience rather than tech. Uh, for me personally though, some my experiences that I've enjoyed most within the retail space is starting to look at broader operating models and then really exciting use cases for things like new distribution centers that are world class and world leading. So they're kind of my highlights. But organizationally we've spanned a uh, lot across the strategy to execution Gap.

Speaker C: What would you say are maybe some of this standout in that space and say especially working with retailers that have maybe jumped out to you over those uh, past couple of months?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think what's really standing out to me at the minute is the retailers that are really succeeding are not doing one single thing. They're doing a combination of or pulling a combination of levers that uh, that represent the conditions that they can create for success. So if I look at actually what's going on within the market, one of the things that we've been seeing really that's been really successful is kind of the cult brands, you know, those that are starting to lean into. If we think about what Gymshark's doing from perspective of actually going to um, brick and mortar from a digital side, um, and then when you see the likes of M and S rolling out Copilot to 11,000 users. What I've been seeing across the clients that we work with and more broader expectations and success is really leaning into really effective use of data. Right. Like retail as an industry is one of the most mature databases in terms of understanding what great metrics look like. But what I seeing is success is not just leaning into the data in a way that's transactional. It's starting to create those kind of cult brand experiences. So that's a bit of a blend across what I've been seeing in the market versus what we've been talking to. And mostly because a large part of that, to my previous point, is current tenure. But hopefully that gives it a bit of a view.

Speaker C: Yeah, it definitely does. Um, one of the points I wanted to focus on a bit as well, and especially with your role at Sullivan Stanley is the focus on say the North. Um, and I wanted to ask, what would you say, uh, if any are maybe the differences that people may not be aware of when it comes to retail operating in the North? Um, and comparatively to looking at retail as a whole across the uk, are there certain characteristics or um, operational challenges or things like that that kind of make the north stand out compared to the other regions of the uk?

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. So I think the north generally in terms of buying is based on trust. And although that is true across the entirety of the uk, it's completely emphasized within the North. So when you look at, I mean the north is already winning in terms of distribution, right? You look at the investment that's going into the spaces. A large part of that is, I think because it's a really tight ecosystem where you know that actually through supply chain, through manufacturing, through distribution, that trust is inherent. So the key differences for me is leaning into that real trust led environment, but actually also credibility. Um, so as we start to think about, we've seen a lot of the investment that's come from the government over the last few years from a northern or regional perspective and that's to try and index into the economy. But then we see what's being done with that from retailers. And I think the key difference for me is they're using that leaning into the human centered kind of focus and um, making best use of a low cost OP model to be able to really make sure that that experience when you step into store is something that's slightly different. And I think that's where the north really does create a different environment to the selves. And part of that is because the clientele want it and that's not necessarily true within the south because of speed and pace of execution. Although like I said, I think some of the big cult brands are bringing that to life in a different way.

Speaker C: Yeah, I was wondering how does that affect retailers that succeed up north compared to the ones that uh, you maybe say smaller m retailers that are normally located in the southern parts of the UK and then expand up into the north. Um, was it that they're normally caught out by say not maybe gaining that trust of the consumer? Is it terms of um, kind of store execution? Is it service, is it you know maybe things with supply? What's normally catching them out?

Speaker A: I think it's certainly from, from my experience one of the things that catches out that expansion is the investment into what will be those experience handoffs. So one of the things that I talk about and we see quite a lot is retailers starting to use what data they already have to proactively um, assume that next step of the client. Right. And that could be through footfall of where they are geography based, what that means in terms of buying a toy for a three year old and predicting what they want when they're four those kinds of things. So where I've seen the catching out happen from that level of expansion with larger retailers is efficiency and optimization isn't always the answer. Having things like really effective returns policies and making sure there's multi channel to be able to do so starts to cater for those. Whereas where I see in the south is there's more so one channel so you're limiting that distribution. But one of the things that I think's uh, fascinating about what's happening, what's happening in retail is the independence. When you look at the true independence that are really winning, they are slowing people down in terms of life and being able to have more effective conversations by getting to know them. And that creates a really different level of trust. You start to buy into a store story or a founder's story. Um and that is something in terms of when you look at the different size and scale of larger retailers versus those that are more independent, they're on the two opposite ends of the coin. And what I think is mostly catching out from a growth perspective is the retailers who are trying to recreate that independent feel but it's not genuine, it's inauthentic. Those that are genuinely creating those authentic communities or reaches will really make the wins. And that's what we're seeing in the north at the minute.

Speaker C: M I wanted to ask um, a bit of your perspective on uh Some of the bigger uh, named uh, retailers in the uk um, and kind of their performance in the north. I think sometimes there's a bit of perspective of that the north maybe gets a little bit neglected. I was wondering if that's something that you think is an accurate reflection.

Speaker A: So I've got a couple of different views on that question. I think it's a great question because um, generally when you look at the level of investment that's happening across predominantly the bigger brands, actually there's more investment that's going into refurbs of more of the suburban type stores where there's more locality. But that generally is based on a really clear strategy of where there is footfall and where there is also the ability to invest. Uh, so that's kind of part one. I think that myth is probably uh, more emotion base. There are a lot of facts that sit behind it. But I see a lot of retailers like they specifically in the north are actually counterbalancing that. And you also see that based on redistribution of stores. So what might be deemed to be a closure of a store is actually a refurb into a new environment that might be two minutes down the road. So there is a bit of that kind of myth busting that comes into it. Um, the other part to it is um, more of an observation than stat based. But retailers are having such a hard time in terms of when you look at the NI impacts that happened last year, the general cost living with the energy crisis and much more. But there's also a pandemic around the way in which stores are being abused and there is absolute rife in terms of theft and um, the reduction of powers that those um, colleagues have within store to be able to actually address those regardless of whether they do or don't have security. So I think retailers are uh, in a very very difficult environment right now where there's trying to be a level of investment that's from an infrastructure perspective and that's keeping up with the times as well as enabling digital transformation. So you see those through bigger redistribution of store refurbs or refurbs that are coming up to today's day and age. But then on the other side of the coin those more suburban areas and those more local stores there might the corner shops of the big brands, they might be those kind of environments. The honesty of it is in some cases they're not always being looked after from the clientele. And actually that's something that's really, really difficult for retailers to mitigate. Some of that is um, Completely down to unconscious. So if that is ill intent because the lesser powers are more understood. So I think, to answer your question directly, there's this counterbalance between what can retailers do that need to redistribute profit accordingly, gain more profit, and that will mean, like, say, the opening of more channels, the ability to have a greater reach. But then there is a sentiment of how do you make sure that there is a baseline that can be genuinely maintained without it being destroyed? And that's the balance that I feel for retailers having to try and manage at the minute.

Speaker C: Yeah. When it comes to, say, talking about, um, transformation and investment in general, um, I know you mentioned sometimes there is a bit of a kind of value gap between what was invested in and maybe the immediate results. Why do you think that is sometimes the case? And then also how do you maybe tell the difference between something that is, you know, creating real kind of commercial value and something that is kind of more just kind of frantic activity to look like, you know, things are being done?

Speaker A: Yeah, great question. And I think I'm going to start at the latter point, right, because I, I'm, um, yet to meet a retailer that doesn't feel need to have an AI strategy right now. And, and I put that into the bucket of kind of frantic reaction. Um, and part of that is because of what's coming up through the hype cycle in terms of where do people feel they need to position themselves, but just around your transformational value gap. That's something that at ah, SNS we're really passionate about. So just to give it a bit of a, ah, backstory in terms of what we see. So. So we've been around for 10 years and we've been helping organizations, retailers included, deliver significant transformation. Um, and that's everything from design to execution, coming in with recovery or trying to understand actually what was delivered, because business cases and outcomes aren't the same thing. So we had. Our interest was piqued and, um, what we did is we actually commissioned an independent report that went across, um, a few hundred leaders across the uk and we said, what really do you see in your organisation based on outcomes, based on your baseline of ambition and how does that translate to then? What do you deliver? And, um, um, the uncomfortable truth is what we've found is only 7% of organisations actually achieve their full value of the traffic transformation that they set out. And that's really stark. Right. Because if we think about the ambitions that people are set out, specifically in a retail environment where the future is based on what you do now because things are changing so rapidly. Only 7% of being able to achieve that value is uh, we know it's felt but it's phenomenal to see the data. Right. More scarily though as we start to think about what does that mean in reality. Because business cases change so in size, we know that sometimes those programs can spend multi years. So outcomes are needed to be um, adjusted accordingly. But what we've seen is actually the majority of the kind of value leakage isn't because of lack of strategy or refined strategy and certainly not because of lack of funding. It's what we call execution leakage. So they sit across three buckets actually mostly which no one will be surprised at. Um, but one is around bureaucracy and governance, the other is around poor adoption. So not having people first or to your point around what does that transformation value actually look like? Because you can't just deliver the thing, you have to make sure people are embedded with that. And the third is lack of optimization. So um, there is all of these ambitions to deliver what is a human centered change, what is might be technology or AI led that is assumed to change your operating model and that might allow you to have more effective service, better experiences, whatever that is. But the reality of it is 27% of what we see get that execution leakage. Which when we go back to your question around why does that kind of transformation value gap exist? Some of that's self inflicted, you know, some of that is absolutely big complex transformation problems, being ambitiously driven, but the outcomes not being able to be validated. One of the other things that's worth kind of coming back to your question is um, retailers, as I mentioned earlier, uh, they spent years investing in data platforms, their ability to forecast to the minute. In terms of what does that look like for Three Peaks and beyond IS industries above in terms of where others want to be. The thing that I think will start to change the execution to value gap is really blending in what we deem the intelligent enterprise pillars. So human intelligence, artificial intelligence, technology intelligence and execution intelligence. I mentioned at the start of the call that the retailers that I'm seeing succeed are not doing one thing, they're doing multiple. They're creating the conditions. Those are the levers that, that we're seeing that start to translate that value into reality at the minute. So I think there's a lot kind of to unpack in your question. But my, my view in terms of what does that really mean is the gap is felt. Most people have that kind of emotional understanding. The data that Sits behind it. We've, we've interrogated quite quickly at depth. Um, but what we are seeing particularly within the retailers of the future space, is they're already getting a grapple of those levers to create those conditions.

Speaker C: About those four pillars you mentioned there, uh, specifically the last one, the execution intelligence, how does uh, a retailer become more adept at that? Is it something that they would be able to learn as reiterations of the investment and changes they're looking to make? Something you just learn over time and seeing in practice, is there already kind of learnings to be had out there? How does one kind of hone in on that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's. So from what we've seen, what we've heard and what we've observed, there is assumed to be a predetermined operating model, particularly in the retail space that works. There is a magic bullet where you can have a low cost model. You can also have amazing customer experience and employee experience and you can have all of the effective supply chain that sits around it. The honesty of it is though, uh, to your question around, how do you start to translate that execution is. We're seeing where retailers have the most success in execution is they don't try and copy and paste a playbook that is not set up for their business. So uh, being able to test effectively, fail effectively and learn from those in a real agile environment is something that we really, really support. So again, if we look at the way in which M and S have come out with their 11,000 copilot licenses, one of the things that we're seeing as part of that distribution is the ability to really embed um, decision making at the shop floor level. When you also look at Greggs, they've got a similar setup around the way that they're being allowed to make decisions through data that's embedded, not something that feels random, um, being able to not touch. So execution success in a retail environment is generally based on knowing the depth of what your employees want, need and how that starts to fit within the future of retail. Knowing the intimacy around your customers and what they really want and almost predicting what they need next and then being able to translate that into what is it an effective transformation. Like I say, the biggest failure I see at the minute is when retailers are trying to assume there's a predetermined model based on someone else's success. And that's just not true.

Speaker C: Just to maybe bring in examples, um, and maybe just a practicality of that. I know we've seen, seen maybe more Traditional and, and older retailers that have recently, uh, fallen on hard times like Claire's kind of comes to mind. Um, you know, lean into certain things and maybe, uh, in terms of their operating model, but also, uh, in terms of leaning on what they're offering to their consumers and things like kind of leading into the more nostalgia act of things. Um, uh, you know, unfortunately, in that case, that was. Wasn't quite enough. I was just wondering kind of your, your thoughts on that and, and you know, is to say kind of pairing to what you've just said, where maybe they could have gone, uh, in a, maybe a better direction, say, not leaning in on the wrong model.

Speaker A: Um, well, so, so my thoughts around Claire's are actually quite, quite simple. I. There was actually a. Such a cult movement around Claire's. Right. Like, I remember, you know, going to the shopping centers where you were like 13, 14. I'm, I'm of the Claire's era. And, you know, you'd happen to walk in and just get your ears pierced. It was phenomenal in terms of the reach that they had. It's really disappointing to see what's happening with Claire's. But from a branding perspective, they didn't grow up with their clientele. So when you look at those that really started to make that cult movement, there was an absolute shift across the services that they offered and, um, the footprint that they had. They didn't need to continue with that kind of size and space. So their model to go into more franchising made sense. The, the challenge that you had though, is the, the things that they were trying to do throughout the course of their tenure. I think they wanted to lean into that, that almost millennial growth. So starting to grow up, that nostalgia. Um, the reality of it is though, I think that they were trying to serve what was a great client base at, uh, where they thought the client base still was. And that's nice. Talk about the fact that they didn't kind of grow up with their clients and all those that were really heartfelt and kind of emotionally involved. And then on the other side of it for me is they tried, you know, they started to try, like I say, whether it be franchising, the spread of their offerings, they started to do more independent offerings as well. Um, and I don't know if they're broad enough. You know, when we look at, like I say, it's really disappointing to see the outcome that they've got because they also weren't alone in what they were doing. Um, there are not like, for, like, competitors but when you look at the types of services they offered, I do think that the biggest learning they could have had is did they hit those points of that I go back to that. Client intimacy or customer intimacy? Did they grow up with them? No, I don't think they did. However, I think their attempt at trying to um, create new channels and new offerings, it just wasn't broad enough if,

Speaker C: if there was a, you know, not even necessarily a retailer on a similar size, but even if, you know, maybe one of our listeners is uh, in a similar position right now in terms of, even if it's on a smaller scale, trying to say, grow up with, with their consumer. What, what is the, say the best way going about that? Does it, does it, does it maybe always need to lead to a kind of monumental shift or they're offering or they're targeting, or can it be say a bit more gradual? Uh, and also what do they need to have in order to kind of facilitate that?

Speaker A: So I think in an ideal world there is that element of truly getting to know what you stand for. So more and more today, customers are looking for brands that they are loyal to. And I say loyal with a small l because, because although there is, you know, the cults of the world in terms of the likes of Apple and such, the honesty that is, um, some of those are so gargantuan, it's more of a life choice and loyalty at this point. But those, if we're talking about Claire's kind of size and scale, although that might be more independent, my, my biggest view is actually standing for something or knowing what you won't stand for. So if I look at one of the biggest success stories of the past 12 months in terms of what I deem to be gold standard behav, there was the Gymshark oncstrop that had come out last year and uh, there was a series of their loyal customers that were waiting for the Onyx drop for months in advance and uh, a load of bots came in and they bought the stock and they weren't able to serve their customers who were truly dedicated and um, it was a way of life. And they canceled those orders within hours of their drop happening. They canceled those orders. They sent out a really interesting state of nation in terms of what they won't stand for. And they made it really clear where their human centered customer base can come in. So that's a really extreme example because to answer your question around if anyone's listening now and thinking actually, how do you start to follow that trend of growing up with or starting to understand that intimacy really well. The thing that um, I do see retailers do very well is understanding why people go to them. Have you got an operating model where you are a convenient store, a convenient brand for your consumer? Have you got an operating model where it is a way of life and. Or have you got an operating model where actually it's a choice and a privilege to be able to have that consumer? So I think leaning into what can people do to be able to make sure that they don't go down the Claire's environment. I would say there is such an amount of data, there's more data than we've ever been able to have before. A uh, colleague said to me today, you know, information is cheap, but being able to transfer that into execution is something that's very expensive. Right. In terms of effort. And I think it's fascinating because retailers need to be able to consume that data in a different way that creates the next moment. And uh, the next moment is, is relevant to whatever that's that brand might be doing. But again if I look at the kind of success metrics about that co op did a fantastic campaign last year in terms of what they won't stand for in terms of the abuse to their staff. Right. They then started to get a higher rate of the smaller independent footfalls because people saw what was happening and wanted to be able to just be around and support. So I think there is, I'm obsessed with data. I will put my hand up and say I love digging into the data. The data by itself without the emotional aspect and the human LED aspect is not going to be the thing that creates survival. It's what you do with the data to create that experience and um, the wanting of more of that brand that will start to avoid things like the Claire's, uh, the Claire situation.

Speaker C: It's interesting as well, isn't it? Because you think any successful retailer up to that point would have originally had to have had that strong, you know, purpose and why and those kind of do's and things they stand for on things they don't. So it's interesting where sometimes that gets lost and to say they kind of stray away from that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But it's also easy, right? Because retailers have had such a difficult time over the past few years. You know, if I look at some of the stuff that the BRC are doing around, what does that mean in terms of impact for things like returns? Because consumer behaviors change so drastically through whether it be things like fast fashion or change of lifestyles. So it, it's, I think, where consumers have tried, sorry, where brands have tried to diversify in terms of their offering, they've possibly diversified far beyond what their original why was so sticking back to that kind of cult elements. The one thing that I'm quite passionate about from a retailing perspective is knowing what you stand for. Your core proposition is going to get the gain. Having diversification that sits in and around that is really effective, but knowing what that then means for the community. So I'll give you an example. When we look at what Ms. Are doing around the kind of parenthood communities, you know, that's something that is truly making a change to people's lives. As a customer, you know what you can kind of reach into in that, that, that's on paper possibly quite a diversification. But in reality when you look at what they're doing in the market, it makes sense. So I think to your point around, there's not many organizations out there that don't have a really strong purpose on why, because you can't survive without it. The difference for me though is what you do with that versus what you say with that and what that ah, translates to in terms of actions. I think customers are more acutely aware of that now.

Speaker C: I think that maybe rolls into my next question, so apologies if this makes you repeat yourself, but I just wanted to ask if there was uh, a listener right now who's kind of stuck in that cycle of feels like they're firefighting constantly on different operational bases and things like that. What would you say is maybe one change that they can make at the moment that that would make those next steps easier and uh, hopefully uh, get them on the right track?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, look, it's so easy to say it when you're not in the moment. Right. But where I see, particularly in retail, the most successful leaders that are doing the firefighting is understanding what the triggers are. So when we look across everything that retailers suffering with at the minute versus everything that the ambitions of retailers have, you know, a few years ago we were all talking about the fact that brick and mortar was dying. And now I've got some of the biggest brands in the world going from digital to bricks and mortar and a queue of 1500 people outside. So when there is the firefighting and you're in moment trying to understand what you can do to actually address that, my biggest observation of leaders that are winning that fight is being able to pause, step back, ah, and really translate to what the triggers are. So is it the fact that you've got a uh, difficult or a frictionful customer experience journey, are you seeing dropouts of baskets? Because actually the ability to go in, um, pay or subscribe is far more challenging than it needs to be when you're already a loyalty member. So why isn't that information transferred over? Right. So I think there is the in moment in fixing it and firefighting were never going away. Being able to do really effective deep dives and listen to what customers are saying is the single greatest thing. I do not feel that there is any other industry outside of retail where you will get the most open, honest and um, sometimes difficult feedback as a consumer or a customer of your journey. Right. And disappointingly, retail has the most identifiable trigger points as to where their journey has not succeeded translation of sales or subscriptions. So understanding why those triggers might be and not making assumptions about them or going and doing the things that make a difference to them that could be tactical if there's a larger technology piece, for example, is the big kind of advocacy that I would make. So, so just going and playing and the other part to the playing for me is uh, there are such a diverse range of lifestyles that there's never going to be enough offerings to serve everyone. What I also see is retailers trying to serve every variation of every lifestyle and everything. And that's not a bad thing. But what it means is they're setting themselves up to fend scale. Because when you can't be really clear what your offerings are, what those channels are, uh, when you've got too much optionality, that's fantastic if you're able to manage all of those touch points accordingly. But a store manager can't do all of those things on the ground whilst doing all the experiential side. Right. So it's the reality of what is possible versus what is practical. It's my view.

Speaker C: And finally, just before moving on to our closing segment, I wanted to come back to something that you mentioned earlier with the north and you know how um, kind of impressive is the, the number of large kind of mega distribution centers and logistics that are kind of being um, located there. Um, I was just wondering, you know, what are some of the most impressive things you, you've seen through that and maybe if there's other areas of retail that can maybe take note and uh. Yeah. Learn some lessons from what you've been seeing going on there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the biggest note that I could take uh, or give is the ability like strategy does not translate to doing right. So um, retail and all sectors. Certainly the conversations that I've been having over the past two years and we see that through the intelligent Enterprise report uh, that we commissioned, is, is um, not being caught up in having a all answering strategy and having the ability to go and really find out what works for you as an organization is my biggest takeaway because there is no one that has done what you are trying to do in your organization with your customers at this moment in time. So there is absolutely lessons to learn. But my biggest reflection around where that starts to sit from a northern perspective in particular is knowing where you've got your OP model, knowing where your clientele really start to drive into, but actually then translating that to be, you know, what, you know now having a great strategy but no progress will get you, will not get you anywhere. That's the biggest mistake that I'm m seeing currently is, you know, the amount of conversations I've had around AI strategy is phenomenal. When there's no linkage to the business strategy M or it's a. It'll just make it better or quicker or will be more productive. They are assumptions that are likely to be true but have not been tested in your brand with your people, with your customers. That's my biggest view around actually. What does good really start to look like? Like, and I, I think the hype cycle hasn't really helped that because people feel not being able to talk about what they're doing in that space is making them be perceived as if they're behind the reality of it is though, uh, small wins, small gains and actually translating reality of pace and progress versus a really great strategy, that's going to be the thing that starts to set them apart.

Speaker C: Yeah. And uh, maybe talking about the hype cycle kind of leads us on nicely to our next segment of the podcast which uh, sees a question left from our previous week's guest. Um, that was Nikki Baird, who's the VP of Product and Strategy Aptos. And uh, yeah, her question focuses on AI and uh, that is what was the moment you realized the impact that AI was going to have on the retail sector? Um, and I guess we can talk to that from a positive standpoint or also from the hype standpoint. But um, yeah, what was that moment?

Speaker A: So the moment that I started to understand really what AI impact was having on the retail sector, uh, was actually the way in which M and S announced their investment into Copilot. Not the investment because that was coming from big brands. The way in which it was was announced and the way in which people responded to that announcement. Right. There was, um, applaud and there was uproar and there was confusion. And my. My M. Key takeaway around what the impact of AI was doing to the sector was in that moment. Because the reception to that announcement was something unlike we'd seen for many years. Years. Um, and I think it was at that point that I was having a conversation with some leaders over a Woman in Transformation breakfast last week. We had an incredible conversation around the fact that this isn't new. You know, are we over worrying and are we overreacting? Because we've done this many cycles before, we think about what really has been disruptive. So that moment for me was when I realized the impact that AI was having on the sector, uh, purely because of the response that was, um, in my opinion, I think that there was more surprise than there should have been and possibly more over worrying. But I get it. I understand where that is.

Speaker C: M. Yeah, I think, uh, Nikki would be very interested in that answer. So, uh, that's perfect. Um, yeah. And, Sammy, that just leaves us with one thing, which is do you have a question for our next guest?

Speaker A: I do. So I would love to know from the next guest in terms of what do they believe the key ingredients are for the future of retail in the next 50 years.

Speaker C: 50 years. Perfect. Yeah, we'll definitely put that to them. Um, Sami, thank you so much for talking to us today. It's been, uh, really interesting.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me, Lewis. It's been great. Really appreciate it.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to Talking Shop, a weekly podcast from Retail Sector, your trusted source of retail industry news and analysis. If you like the podcast, make sure to subscribe on whichever podcast platform you listen to. And to get more industry Insight, head to retailsector.co.uk and subscribe for unlimited access. If you're interested in sponsoring episodes of the podcast, drop us a line@podcastretailsector.co.uk.