From Disagreement to Violence: How to Recognize and De-escalate Workplace Conflicts Before They Explode

Speaker A: Hello everyone, this is Steve Nail with Survive hr and it's good to be with you today, uh, minus Anna. Anna is actually working, believe it or not, at a conference today, so it's just going to be me. But no problems there because I have two of our great guests. Chad Ayers, Andy Sexton with Proactive Response Group. It's good to have you guys back and thank you again for their sponsors of this show, um, and uh, I'm proud to have them sponsor the show because these guys do great job, um, and they're wonderful, uh, in helping companies, um, with um, issues of workplace, I guess security in the workplace, specifically. Uh, how you guys doing today?

Speaker B: Great, but busy.

Speaker A: Well, busy is a good thing. I haven't seen you on the national news, either of you on the national news lately. You must be very busy because you're not on the tv, uh, giving your advice and counsel, uh, to the nation. But uh, where. Give us, uh, give me a quick rundown. What do you guys been up to lately?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, obviously the media stuff is kind of toned down a little bit. You know, it's funny you bring that up, Steve, because the media operates the same way as corporate America, in a sense, or a lot of our clients. Right. They reach. It's a reactive approach. Something big happens. A workplace shooting, an active shooter event out of school. And I get every, you know, news outlet in the country, major or local, calling, hey, can you be on at this time? Can you be on at this time? It's the same thing when Andy and I are, are talking to clients or reaching out, maybe even some cold calling on the importance and the need for m. Workplace violence prevention, active shooter response training in the workplace and, or de escalation training. Kind of like we're going to go through a little bit today. It's that reactive approach. And we say this, that you know, in class a lot. You know, this training should not be a reactive type of topic. Um, you don't put your seatbelt on hoping to get in a car wreck. You do it to be prepared in case. And so I think that's kind of a big important part for leaders to look at as what are we truly doing to make sure our employees are safe and that our leadership knows how to de escalate situations in the workplace.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's getting, you know, we, it seems to me that our society is getting more and more uncivil every day and the ability to engage in discourse with people that you disagree with is like at an all time low as far as I'm concerned, I mean, I haven't lived but you know, so many years. But in my lifetime I would say that's the case. I just can't believe how quick tempered people are. Uh, we know in the workplace from, uh, talk to people. I've read different articles and I'm always out there in the HR world talking to folks and it's interesting and we may have mentioned this the last time we met, but the number one problem, uh, if you talk from a legal perspective with family medical leave, or if you speak talk about drug spends, um, or issues in the workplace, uh, the predominant issue is mental health issues. I mean people just are, for whatever reason are not as, apparently not as mentally stable as they once were. And I think that's causing a lot of the situations that we see all over the country with whether it's in the workplace or not, but specifically for this podcast is it manifests itself in the workplace. Um, so I mean, is that what you're hearing and seeing as well?

Speaker C: Absolutely. And like SHRM even has some data on that that indicates that over 20% increase in workplace incivility in 2025 compared to 2024. And not only that, but like we're in places from here in Greenville all the way to California and Boston and everywhere in between and we hear the same things. Like just like you mentioned, we can't just disagree anymore. If we disagree, that's gotta now mean that we hate each other and we have to fight. Whereas like, you know, five, 10 years ago, you and I could disagree about something. We could have a conversation about it and just realize we're two different people and we don't have to fight about it and it's okay for us to disagree. But now it seems like that disagreement just so often leads to a threat of or actual violence now with our, our clients or people that we're talking to and we're just seeing that more frequently now. It's what they're reaching out for. You know, they've had specific incidents where a small argument continued to go on and go on and go on until it became violence in the workplace.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I tell you this is not going to change in my opinion. And um, I know you guys have one kind of aspect and, and deal with HR in a particular, uh, from a particular angle. Um, but we have studied and I've been looking and people that know me and hear me speak on this topic know how I feel about it, but AI is coming on. Um, I mean like we've Never seen. I mean, I heard Elon Musk the other day in an interview and he said the, it's going to be a tsunami effect. And so the tsunami's out in the ocean and it's rolling in. And the reason I mention that is because unlike most times in the past, and if you talk about pressure and what's going on, you know, we already know that, um, I mean there's more, um, car repossessions than ever. Foreclosures are starting to go up. People have, have very little in savings. You know, they, we as humans tend to spend more than ever. But the problem with AI is that it's to eliminate many white collar jobs. So in the past what typically happens is, yeah, you may have some white collar jobs affected if you have a, uh, recession or some housing crisis or something, but typically it's the hourliest, the lower end of the wage earners that are suffering. And what I think we're going to see with the AI, uh, tsunami, as must refer to it as is, is a reduction, a pretty significant reduction, maybe 10% in the salaried ranks, which is your higher wage earners. And so I mean we could get a whole thing on that. And I know that's not what we're here for, but the point is I'm already seeing layoffs, I'm already seeing job slowdowns. So the point is that whatever anxieties that we're seeing based upon whatever the situations are now, it's probably unfortunately only going to increase. So how we handle that as an hr, um, profession and also from your perspective as being prepared for worst case scenarios with people, um, reacting in a way that is not really what we want them to do. Uh, I think that's only, it's only going to be more of an issue going forward.

Speaker C: You say it might not be related, but I think it's exactly what we're looking at here. It's something that's escalating now. And so employers and individuals, this is our opportunity to see it. And you know, our program is designed at looking at those early warning signs. And I think what you just laid out is one of them. And when you look at those higher wage earners, typically they have more to lose. So if they've been making X number hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and they've got investment properties, they've got

Speaker B: country club members, all this stuff, and

Speaker C: they lose that job to AI, their stress level goes through the roof. And we start to see in our world that's where we see the violence coming out. So I think it's, it's one example of something that we all really need to be getting ahead of right now and seeing that escalation. And how do we long term de. Escalate that? So it does that when that tsunami hits. It's not as bad as it could be if we did nothing.

Speaker B: Well, and it actually goes back to what Steve just said.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: We've seen an increase in vehicle repossessions, houses going into foreclosure, etc. Whereas normally we would see that typically in this lower income bracket. Right, but what you just said, Steve, is now, oh my gosh, I live in this, you know, $800,000 home. I got a Range Rover, a BMW. And then in a period of two weeks, oh my gosh, I can't make this house payment anymore. I, my, you know, my wife's car has been repossessed. Having trouble putting food on the table. You just went from a very comfortable lifestyle to going, oh, crap, where do I go? Now? I've been with this company for 25 years and let's be honest, it doesn't matter the age. Unfortunately, we see people turn to derogatory comments and they blame anybody other than themselves. Now listen, some of this AI Stuff is out of your control. You can be a top performer and for some reason the business just sees a way to, to, to cut that p. L Some and their finances. And if I can get a computer or a robot to do it. All right, but that person who has that expertise in that background, man, I don't think it's going to be as easy to find one of those jobs. And I'm not here to instill fear. We're just talking truth here, guys.

Speaker A: Yeah, one of the things, and that is an excellent segue to the next point I was going to make. And then, and that is in the past, there was this in the past, meaning, let's say before, um, you know, before the last 10 years, you know, when, when there used to be an old saying in HR that for every $10,000 in salary, it would take one month to find a job. So if you think about A.I. uh, and just the economic situations, efficiencies, whatever, eliminating, uh, white collar jobs, then there's going to be more people than ever, I believe, looking for those white collar jobs. And so that, that general rule, which I have found to be fairly accurate, actually becomes elongated. So you could have somebody that leaves and. Okay, um, I'm fine. I understand I've been laid off. I've got My severance. And my severance is 3, 4, 5, 6 months, whatever it is. But then after that, you know, then they get into it and then the depression starts. Then they find out, you know, I'm not as marketable as I thought or these jobs are harder to find. And um, that's when you also have a situation where you could have somebody that was laid off six months ago, uh, that was, you know, you thought was perfectly fine. Now they're having mental health issues and they're coming back to the workplace or to the bosses homes or whatever and acting out in a violent way. But I guess what I would ask is, you know, from an escalating behaviors, what are you seeing? What's going on out there around um, in the work, the space that you're in, what are you seeing as far as escalating behaviors right now?

Speaker C: So like specifically there's a lot of things that are, that are causing that political uh, tension seems to be one that has amped up over the last few weeks. Um, and it could be anything from,

Speaker A: and I mean to go down a

Speaker C: political road here on you Steve, but it could be anything from ice raids to disagreements on what's going on in Iran, you know, the president, our state elections coming up, we're seeing that here and across the state. You got primaries going on in different areas of the country. So those are the specific things that we're looking at. But from like a bigger picture, those specific things when we look at the stages of escalation are what's generally referred to as the trigger. What event is causing us to start going up that hill and our behavior starts to escalate where we start to build that anger and uh, maybe potentially become a problem. And then that leads to the phase where things are getting a little bit worse, you're getting agitated and you can see these in your co workers, right? So whatever that event is, you pick it, they, they start talking about that event, they get hyper focused on it. It's all they talk about in their off time or all they post about on social media. And, and then they start to get more and more angry or upset with it or about it over time, which then you'll notice kind of leading up to like what's going to be the peak that accelerates even faster. And you're like, man, something's definitely wrong with Chad. He's been um, at his baseline here and all of a sudden now he's way up here off the charts on agitation, impatience, anger.

Speaker B: It's that fly off the handle kind of phrase.

Speaker C: Right. And I said baseline there because each one of us, each one of your co workers has a baseline, Chad and I don't have the same baseline. You don't have the same baseline as your co workers. But we all know what each other's baseline is. And when we start to see that deviation, it's when we get concerned. Specifically today, when we see that deviation above baseline, um, we get concerned. You have your peak. So whatever that is, maybe it's a verbal altercation, physical altercation, violent altercation, um, and then you've got your de escalation. So we want that de escalation to take place and create the peak as low as possible. Because on the other side of de escalation, you end up with what we call the post crisis depletion. And that's where you're below your baseline. You're regretting what you did. Everybody involved is, and we're below where we should be. And we've got to dig our way out and build back up. And so if we can make that peak as low as possible, then that, that depletion at the end also becomes a little bit lower and easier to dig out of. So just in general, that's the cycle that we're looking at there. The triggering behavior could be very different depending on the employer, could be very different depending on the industry they're in, the type of work they're doing, the region or area of the country that they're in. Um, but they're usually pretty easy for us to see in hindsight, uh, after the fact.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, you know, as you said, something kind of triggered a thought and I do not have this article in front of me. Uh, maybe you're more familiar with it. There were some, there, some surveys over the last several months which are very concerning to me, um, because, you know, with younger, uh, people and how violence is an acceptable means to resolve differences, um, political differences I think is specifically what this, um, what the survey was about. But really if you take that, it doesn't. The fact that you're willing to engage in violence to, you know, against people that have a different political view. I don't think it's a very far jump to take that into other things too, and just.

Speaker B: No, so you're exactly right. And I bring this up a lot and listen, I would assume, and I don't assume very often in this day and age, but the majority of your listeners, Steve, are probably middle aged, you know, several years removed from college or university, middle age, working class, Individuals. Now, when we look and Andy, have I discussed this a lot and there have been studies on this. You and I were growing up and two guys are in. You know, whether it was in the workplace, uh, let's just go to like, high school. You had an issue with somebody, you took it out back by the flagpole after school or in the park across the street. You brought a couple of your buddies, I brought a couple of mines. They circle around, you throw some dukes. Hey, good fight. We're good now, right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: But now we turn to extreme violence. And more and more studies and listen, I am not telling any of your viewers how to parent m. But more and more studies are showing that these video games, real life, first person shooting games, desensitizes these children's minds to murder. We're talking about five, six and seven year olds that are playing these first shooter games that are the most realistic things. Andy and I were laughing, you know, the other day. Uh, we are both, we are not gaining people. You know, I probably haven't played a video game since the original Nintendo game came out, but back then we were playing Duck Hunt with this big, long little pistol. You know, you're shooting ducks. But now what happens, you see, is these kids where we used to go out, throw some punches, and they go get daddy's gun, they pull the trigger. Bang. Oh, crap. I can't hit the reset button like I do on my gaming system on this one.

Speaker A: This one's real.

Speaker B: Right. So again, it's a child's mind in teens minds.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: They're impulsive. Andy does a great presentation on students and, and the impulsivity of, of, of teenagers, um, and things like that. Listen, we were all there. We were all impulsive at that age. But that impulsivity, you know, in a time where you disagree with someone, they go straight to the most violent things ever. And now you sit back. I mean, look at how many of the parents now are being indicted on these mass shootings because they had easy access to these firearms. Uh, uh, a whole wide variety of things.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a, it's a different time. For sure. You're right. I remember you. You know, people. You didn't think about shooting people when we were growing up. You thought may thought about punching them out. And you have your fist fights and stuff and your disagreements and, you know, yelling matches or whatever. Uh, but you didn't go and, uh, be violent. No.

Speaker B: I mean, Steve, my dad talks about going to high school, you know, and, and, and having a shotgun hanging on the back of his. Of his Ford truck, you know, his 67 Ford or whatever that he pulled up to school with. So again, this isn't a gun debate or a political topic. The fact of the matter is we have a mental health crisis in this country and there's been numerous studies talking, um, about the increase to post Covid. All, you know, all of us sitting at home didn't have community to talk to. Um, so, you know, me personally, I do not, you know, m. If you're asking my opinion, I don't think it's truly a gun issue. I truly believe it's a mental health issue.

Speaker A: 100% agree. It is a. It's. It truly is a. Is a mental health issue. And then when you have. And I'm very. It's very concerning to me because we also have, you know, people of some renown. Okay. Um, um, people in the press, social, uh, media influencers, others. I mean, the whole thing with. That's kind of instigating or, or glorifying violence against others is just. I'm just shocked at it and so disappointed that that's where our society is and that these people wouldn't be, you know, uh, outcast as a result of it. Um, it's kind of been normalized, which is not a. Not a good thing for us as a society. Um, and it's manifesting itself in society. I mean, what. Let me ask you this. What is what about? I mean, with all these things that are going on, and I hope. I'm sure many people that listen to this podcast are, you know, are aware of it and say, okay, it's a bad thing, but what. What can we do? How do we de escalate some of this in the workplace? I mean, how do we do that?

Speaker C: First, first thing is to know the signs of escalating behavior so you can identify it. We don't want you to look back and say, man, I saw these things, I just didn't know what they meant. So step number one, some situation awareness around what are escalating behaviors specifically for your environment, the age group, the demographics that you're dealing with. What behavior should I be aware of? And then some simple techniques and kind of understanding, too, why it's important to de. Escalate. Most people escalate because they're fearful of something or they feel like they've lost control for some reason. And that kind of goes back to a lot of the mental health talks that we're just having, but kind of looking at when people have that feeling, how are they going to act. So what we teach, we teach two different pathways here. One specific de escalation technique is more likely to be used when the results aren't expected to be violent. So if we see something happening that we really expect, all right, he's not going to act out violently about this, but he's upset and he's getting stressed out. So that's kind of one lower, um, level technique that we use there. And then there's another technique that we would use when we're looking at something that's more likely to turn violence. So maybe a termination or something like that where we know the stress levels are going to be a little bit higher. And, you know, there's a lot of. There's tons of de escalation techniques out there. Uh, but if you get it too complicated, then you've got to figure out which one works over and over again. And these are things that Chad and I had to use hundreds of times in law enforcement. You know, 20 or 30 times a day, you know, we're showing up to somebody's house in law enforcement, and for whatever reason it's about, if the cops are there, it's bad regardless of what end of it you're on. And so these techniques have just been proven over time to continuously work in real life situations.

Speaker B: And, uh, I think too, what you brought up, you know, just relating it back to our previous careers, it's important in the workplace. You know, if you're in an HR role or your supervisors and they're being trained on de escalation. Listen, there's just some people that suck at de escalation. Their presence alone, their facial expressions, their eye rolls, their tone of voice, right? There was, there were so many times, right, you'd get on scene to a hostile call. You might have been the first one there. You realize maybe someone's going to jail or you might just need backup. And you've calmed this situation down, right? You're in the conference room. I've calmed Steve down a little bit. And then there was always that one deputy that would show up on scene that you're like, oh, God, please don't come in here. Because you knew they were going to get them amped up and riled up again.

Speaker C: Steve, let me ask you real quick. If you had to guess which one I was and which one Chad was, would you be able to pick that out pretty easy?

Speaker A: Probably, uh,

Speaker B: we'll do that. All fair M. Let me add.

Speaker A: Let me say that, uh, because you, you know, you make a great point. And in the workplace. And one. One thing that I, I'm critical of about the profession because HR people have to deal with these. With the de. Escalation. Many times managers have to deal with it. And you're right. Just their demeanor and the way they engage people. Um, and. And the problem I believe in part is that they're so formalistic in everything. You know, they've been trained in a certain way by a policy or whatever. And what they take out of that is any showing of real care for the person. And I think a lot. I think that's a lot of the whole mental health thing. And a lot of the issue with violence and escalating behaviors is that they don't see people on the other side of whatever the issue is as actually caring about them as the. As an individual or their situation. It's more about a policy that they're trying to follow and, uh, being very formalistic about it because guess what?

Speaker B: This is their feelings, for the most part. Many times they're real to that individual. Right. And so many times that employee. You know, what's the biggest thing to do if we don't think violence is imminent and it's just a disgruntled employee about a situation or working conditions, whatever that is. Biggest thing to do.

Speaker C: Listen, and we're not good at that. This goes back to like, your point earlier about young people, every single one of us and everybody who listens to this. Pay attention to your conversations the rest of the day. How often do we cut somebody else off because we think we know what they're wanting or the point they're making, and we want to go ahead and move on to the next thing. So even before they finish, we cut them off. And, uh, in everyday conversation. So imagine if it's a heated conversation and now you get cut off. That doesn't turn the temperature down, it turns it up. So listen to what they have to say. And, and then, and with that, to

Speaker B: be empathetic, you, you're not agreeing with the way they're talking. You're not, you're, you're not condoning the behavior, but you're, you're, you're offering. You're being empathetic to how they feel at that time.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And, and that's the hardest thing for me because there's not a lot of things that cause me to get upset that I don't think we can deal with other than Chad. Um, but, uh, it's hard for me to be empathetic with people. So when I get to a situation that I know I've got to de. Escalate. I have to intentionally, before that conversation or even during that conversation, remind myself of that. Just what you said, Steve, this is another human being here.

Speaker B: That's good.

Speaker C: And I got to understand from their perspective, I don't have to agree with it, I don't have to support it, but I need to understand from their perspective why this is upsetting to them at the time.

Speaker A: Yeah, this. I tell people all the time, uh, perception is reality. For the person that holds the perception, it may not be the. It may not be reality, you know, but it's their reality. And so we have to kind of get in, acknowledge that, you know, um, say, okay, we, I, I know you. I can. I know. I know this is an emotional issue for you. I know you're upset about. I mean, acknowledge how they, how they're, how they're feeling. To your point.

Speaker B: Yeah, so.

Speaker A: And that's. So many times I have seen HR people, managers, just completely disregard that and that. Ah. And that makes the person more angry and more agitated.

Speaker C: Uh, 100. And that's why we want to, like, listen carefully to what they're doing. But also don't be too quick to like, say words like why. But we, we do need to know why. Like, we want to know what's behind it. But instead of asking why, ask them what's behind that feeling, that statement, that thought. Can you tell me more about that you think that is, though? Like, give them those questions where they can talk a little bit more and then wait for their response. Sometimes there's going to be some, like, awkward silence there as you're going. But don't feel like as soon as they stop speaking, you've got to jump in and solve their problem for them.

Speaker B: Wait, because it's giving them the opportunity to process, you know, what you've just kind of said. And I think with that, we briefly touched on it. But your expressions, right. These people have a concern whether you feel like it's legitimate or not. To them it is. So if they're coming in, don't be typing or finishing an email or checking your cell phone.

Speaker A: Eye contact.

Speaker B: Don't be closed off. More of like a hands open type of thing. It almost takes me back to like, premarital counseling in a sense, where they encourage you to not say, you made me feel this, this. And then you, well, you made me. It's that what I'm hearing, Steve, is that us, uh, having you come in 30 minutes early has made it difficult for you to get your kids to school on time and make it here on time. And I could. You know, Steve, I could understand where that probably would cause some stress. How can we work together, maybe to. To. To where we can resolve this instead of you telling them it's. You're working now together as a team, and you're showing that you're not closed off. You're not rolling your eyes. You're not elevating your voice. You're.

Speaker C: You're.

Speaker B: You're trying to work together as a team to come to common ground here.

Speaker C: And, Steve, you can see both of us back and forth. You're doing the same thing. And listeners, you won't see this, but if you're watching the. The podcast, you can see that we're shaking head in agreement. And that's a simple thing that you just kindly nod to somebody. Again, you're not nodding in agreement to them. You're nodding to let them know that you're engaged in that conversation. You understand they're another human being and that you're with them in what they're going through.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, because we should acknowledge that we're here. We understand what they're saying, which is not necessarily agreement with what they're saying. So we just understand what they're saying. And I've had people before say, well, you agree with me. I, uh, know. I. I didn't agree with you. I never said I agree with you. I was. I understood what you were saying. That's what I was saying when I said I understand. Okay.

Speaker B: And I think, too, it's also important that as we're going through this, the environment that you do this in is key as well. Right. If there's something going on on the shop floor, in the manufacturing floor, in the hallway, in the break room, do your best as a leader to try to move to a, uh, like a less consistent, conspicuous type of area. Um, bystanders, if there's other people and you feel like it's best to be handled in there, you know, discreetly somehow say, hey, guys, can y' all give us just a second? Um, and because I feel like a lot of times it lowers the pressure in the room a little bit, you're not trying to show out to your buddies of, hey, look, I'm gonna tell HR what I feel. Um, and it reduces that counterproductive interference of someone else saying, yeah, it's happened to me too. That's a bad position to be in, um, as a leader, as an HR professional. And then it limits, you know, potential collateral injuries if this was to turn violent.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. Um, yeah. And one thing, and this may be, I know this may be a difficult question, um, but if somebody says something that's kind of alarming or is, you know, takes on a, I guess a violent connotation potentially, um, how many times should that go on before you address it? Um, would be the, the, the, the issue. And then how do you, and I think you kind of talked a little bit about it, but then how do you address that? If you say somebody says, I'm, I mean, I'm just so upset I could kill this guy, or I'm m. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, beat his, you know, so and so or whatever. I mean, something that's, that is obviously triggers the thought in your mind that, wait a minute, this isn't, this is normal, this isn't, this isn't, uh, this is concerning to me.

Speaker C: If you have any concern, our view is that you report that and address it appropriately right away. And that looks different depending on a lot of the factors that are there. But so often when we see something that actually leads to violence, there's five, six, seven different people or different occurrences where there was concern but nothing was addressed. And so this is why I believe de. Escalation is not just a, ah, in the moment thing that we should all be doing, but it's a long term cultural shift within an environment that we're creating. An environment where it's okay for Steve or Andy or Chad to come forward and say, listen, um, Chad's coming to work a little bit late now, uh, whatever the concern is, even if it's minor, then it's okay to bring that forward or even bring it to their, that person's attention in a kind and professional way the moment you have that concern. And not out of trying to get somebody in trouble, but in genuine care for that other person and for the organization as a whole. Like, if any one of us is struggling with something, regardless of what it is, if it's stressing us out, are we as productive as we should be at our job? Probably not. So if a friend, a co worker who trust, who I trust, comes to me and tells me about that, we all win as long as we do it professionally.

Speaker B: And don't you think too, Andy, that getting ahead of things like this, you know what else this is doing? This is reducing risk and liability in the workplace. Because if you don't and you let this thing continue to fester, and it does turn violence. And attorneys and litigation happens and they start subpoena files. Well, yeah, uh, you know, on two occasions, Steve threatened to whip Andy's tail, whatever like that. And y' all just kind of kept doing these verbal counselings. You're not setting yourself up for to have a good defense in a situation like that. Should it turn violent and people are injured or, God forbid, they're killed?

Speaker A: No, I think in your answer was. We did not have. This is not a, uh, for the listeners, this is not a. This was not a planned question, but that was the exact answer I was hoping you would give. Because I think you have to. To address things when they come up, uh, and not just let them continue. Because I think also that when you have somebody that's repeated, if you don't address it, then it becomes more ingrained in this person's mind that this is kind of where they're heading, what they're doing. So, um, I think you guys addressed it perfectly. When you go to a client. I mean, if I'm going to have you guys come in and talk to my employees, for example, what. How would you. What is that? How do you do the training? How long is the training for this? Escalating behaviors? De. Escalating behaviors. Um, how long is that and what all would it involve?

Speaker C: It kind of varies depending on the specific needs of the client, of course, but you're looking at an hour and a half to two and a half hours, maybe three in some cases. Uh, it starts off with the conversation like we're having now. Why is it important for. For us to recognize escalating behaviors? Uh, we will always engage the crowd there to understand exactly what escalating behaviors they've seen and potentially didn't notice or do anything about before and what the outcome was to really hit home with them about why it's important for them. Uh, and then we move into two specific de. Escalation techniques. One we kind of went through briefly there, where it's not likely to turn violent, one where we're going to take some more definitive steps because we feel like violence is coming. We do that in a classroom setting, presentation, discussion. And then the real learning happens when we move into the scenarios. So we split into much smaller groups and we work with the client ahead of time to create realistic scenarios, things that have probably happened there in the past or that they've likely dealt with. And we put people on the hot seat. We add some stress to you now, not in, like, an embarrassing way or anything. This is, it's fun for everybody involved, but they get the opportunity to de escalate some things super simple. If they paid attention most of the time in class, they're going to be able to win the scenarios. And then your peers are watching you. And we all know that that adds stress too because everybody's like, ah, uh, watching Andy screw up here again. And so when you watch that, you learn from it as well. And then we kind of debrief at the end with what we learned and next steps there and again highlighting the importance of not only from a personal safety standpoint of preventing violence, but from an organizational standpoint. If we create a culture where it's okay to report concerns where you trust that HR or safe, your management is going to address those concerns appropriately, then we de escalate way ahead of time. That peak I talked about earlier happens way down here. And then that deficit on the end is almost minimal or non existent. And so that in person stuff is where you get that learning, where you're under a little bit of stress and you have to apply what you learn, not just watch it on a TV screen.

Speaker B: And I think what we see a lot in a variety of these types of trainings when we have these discussions and listen, I get it. There's a lot of these corporate environments. These people get assigned 30e learning courses to take on their LMS and they're clicking through, they got their AirPods in, they're watching another podcast or listening, you know, to, to, to survive HR while these are going on, uh, you know, in the background. So I do think it's important, you know, as leaders to uh, evaluate the training. Is it truly effective? Let's be honest, over the last probably 12 to 18 months, this course has become the most requested course at Proactive Response Group. And I, you know, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, man, why wouldn't it be the active shooter response workplace violence? You know what I think it is? Because every single day in their office setting or their business, they are dealing with disgruntled employees. And they truly need to know how do we. And not just hr, first line supervisors, they're the first ones that are dealing with these plant, you know, the people working on the plant floor or in the office setting. Um, not everything can go straight to the HR director if you've got, you know, 2,500 people working at your facility. So it's important that those first line managers and supervisors have a good baseline foundation on how do I de escalate this, you know, before it even gets to the point where we need to go up to that next step.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Well, it's funny that you say that, that, uh, that you were surprised, but I was going to say, you know, kind of as we since close this out, that in my opinion this should be for everybody listening and for every employer, this should be the very first and most important training that, um, you have done for your employees. Because you're going to need every manager. There's, there's a, there's kind of a void now. We have an issue with leadership now. Uh, you've got more and more young people with less managerial experience coming to the workforce. Um, they're a generation that came from, you know, social media and dealing with things on text, not in real life. And that's, you know, and that's, there's an interrelationship with everything we've talked about in that. So this training is beneficial because if you do this right, hopefully you will never get to the workplace violence situation. But I would highly encourage every single company to, uh, bring on proactive response group, Chad and Andy to do this particular training first. And then you're going to be so impressed with them that you'll want to bring them on to do the other training as well. But this is, this is, I think, critical training. So, um, I tell you guys, it's been really good talking with you today. Um, is there anything else you'd like to, anything else that we should include before you close the show out?

Speaker B: You know, you actually, it shows that you've got such a background in this and you get it, Steve, because what, what I was going to say is, and I think you would agree because you touched on it, successful de escalation results in empowerment. But we can't just sit there if it's, if, if we de escalate the situation at 9 o' clock this morning because Andy was, you know, an hour late to work. Once again, um, we have to hit that reset button, remember the easy button, that take that easy button and put reset on it. Because guess what? You have to reset yourself and be ready because you might have to de escalate another situation that's totally different within the next 30 minutes to an hour.

Speaker A: That's right. And all these, I mean, if you have a workplace violence issue, whether it's a fist fight, you know, uh, a stabbing, a shooting, you know, like there's so many shootings. I mean, you have had a significant failure in the workplace. Uh, and I've been in these situations before. Where you've had really bad situations occur. I've watched management teams, you know, grown men bawling their eyes out because of what had happened. And it's all preventable. And so you don't ever want to get, I mean, you want to be prepared in case it does happen, but you never want to get to the point where it escalates to violence. You want to be able to recognize it, uh, address it, um, and hopefully keep the, uh, work place, ah, safe and secure from a violent act. So that's why this training and this podcast actually has been such a very, um, very good, A very good, uh, uh, program in my opinion. I think that, I think the listeners are going to like it. So anyway, I would encourage everybody again to, um. How do you think they get. I think on their website, I don't know if that's proactive response group dot com. Um, uh, is there any other way that they can contact you? I'm sorry.

Speaker C: Yeah, proactiverg.com. they can just jump on there. Okay, reach, uh, out to us. Uh, or you could either email me or Chad. There's um, a way to do that right on the website. Click on a button, it'll shoot us a message and we'll get in touch

Speaker B: with you right away.

Speaker A: Yeah, and these guys are very, oh, it's funny, they are very responsive to emails. Great guys. Uh, I've known them for years. I highly, highly recommend them. So, um, and also the other sponsor, RWP Lead, I talk about them as well. They're a great group in, uh, leadership training. And uh, what they do kind of goes hand in hand with what Chad and Andy do. It just not in the, in the same kind of space. So, um, both of these sponsors, please utilize them and when you do utilize them, tell them you heard about it on Survive hr. So guys, thanks so much and uh, you'll be back again at some point in the not too distant future. So thank you very much. All the best to you as you start your summer, uh, your summer's off. Hope it goes well.

Speaker B: Thanks.

Speaker A: See you now. Bye.