The Spice King of Australia: Ian Hemphill on Herbs, Spices & Flavour

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Straight to the Source podcast. I'm Tonya Barr.

Speaker B: And I'm Lucy Allen. And we're looking forward to taking you straight to the source of the people driving our food and hospitality industry forward.

Speaker A: When it comes to herbs and spices, few people know them better than Ian Hemphill. For more than four decades, he's traveled the world in search of exceptional flavor, building Herbie's spices into one of Australia's most respected names in the industry. He's an author, educator, and passionate advocate for helping both chef and home cooks understand how to get the very best from every herb and spice. Hope you enjoy. Welcome, Ian.

Speaker B: It's great to be here.

Speaker A: It is so good to have you here. And you've traveled down from the central coast.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Thank you very much on this wintry day.

Speaker B: My pleasure. In a nice warm car.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, the Hemphill name is synonymous with spices and herbs and, you know, goes back farther than you from what I know. So can you please tell our audience how that came to be and where it all began?

Speaker B: Well, it all began when my parents had a nursery at, uh, Dural back in the mid-1950s. And my mother, who was actually born in Broome, born, but spent some of her childhood with grandparents in England where they had a large garden in Kent and they had a herb garden. So as well as selling all of the usual plants that a nursery sells, Mum thought, why don't we grow herbs? And my father was one of those people that just had a natural green thumb. You know, dad could grow just about anything. And so they started growing herbs. Now it was a bit unusual in the mid-50s and the early 60s to have parents who were in the herb business, the legal herb business, that is Taunia.

Speaker A: Right, right. What was your mom's name?

Speaker B: And mom's name is Rosemary and she was christened Rosemary when she was born in Broome in 1922. You know, it's like Mr. M. Salmon running the fish markets. It's just one of those things where a name will often occur. Any. I got the nickname Herbie when I was at school. And it was quite interesting because Mum and dad were doing something that was then quite different. We had a bit of herb, uh, influence from migrants who'd come post war from Greece and Italy and were introducing us to things like oregano and basil and even garlic. Goodness me, so challenging. So that was something that I grew up with. But as a kid, you'd never think your parents are doing anything particularly interesting.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: It doesn't really interest in you. Why couldn't mum and dad be doing something normal? Anyway, people flocked to see us. Our dear national treasure who passed away, Margaret Fulton. I've known Margaret since I was about 12. Lots, uh, of other people who were in the food game in those days would come out to Jural, and it was really the environment that I grew with herbs drying in the house, helping dad pick them, all that sort of thing. Now, although it didn't seem particularly cool to me as a kid, it is

Speaker A: quite uncommon for a child to grow up around spices and herbs and, you know, it is uncommon.

Speaker B: And the lovely thing about it that you're not aware of, you absorb so much by osmosis that you're not even aware of. And I think this is really interesting. And you often see families that tend to be in particular industries. I have a son in law who's a surgeon. His father's a surgeon. And often it's the dinner table conversation, it's the environment you're in that you gain an understanding of without actually logically thinking about it.

Speaker A: Well, did. So you didn't necessarily know that was going to be your career path.

Speaker B: I had no idea it was my career path. When I finished school, I wanted to be an actor and I auditioned for nida and back in the day when they only had about 2,000 people auditioning, I got into NIDA and I thought, oh, yes, you know, I'll have a career as an actor. You know, wouldn't this be great? Because as you've known, you know, I like talking to people. Anyway, anyway, um, after I'd, uh, been at NIDA for a year and I was doing some acting work, and as they say in the game, I was resting, which is another way of saying you're looking for a job. And so I started working with dad, and dad sort of started involving me with, you know, the business side of herbs and spices, um, right down to, you know, doing the ledger and doing the bookkeeping and going out and seeing shops that were selling our product and all that sort of thing.

Speaker A: I was gonna say who was his customer at the time? Was it retail shops?

Speaker B: Yes, it was Continental, uh, delis.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And people used to come out to our shop at Somerset Cottage, shop at Dural. So we had a shop actually there on Old Northern Road. And people would come to that. So a lot of the sales were direct to the public there and a lot were to specialty shops, small supermarkets, that sort of thing.

Speaker A: So as the word got out, what was the attraction? Were they attracted to the quality were they attracted to the knowled that your parents were imparting on them?

Speaker B: It was a little bit of both, because Mum was the first Australian to have a book published on herbs that was called Fragrance and Flavour was published in 1959. In 1960, it won a bronze medallion at the Frankfurt International Cookbook Fair. And Mum and dad went on to write about another dozen books, all about herbs and spices. And so it was very much the knowledge the family was imparting. It was also the quality of the product, because that's always been, um, um, um, an obsession for our family. But the other aspect also was that we were offering a range of herbs and spices that no one else was. So in the supermarkets you could get mixed herbs and cinnamon and mixed spice and a few other things, but you couldn't get anywhere near. We had a, back then, a range of 48 varieties, which was huge back in 1960. So anyway, I continued to work in the family business because I actually enjoyed it more than working and acting. The other thing was that we would have lots of bus groups who would come to Dural and we would talk to them about herbs and spices, their history, how they're grown, how to use them, all that sort of thing. So here I was, I found myself that I had a captive audience. It was my own script, yeah. And I was enjoying the business side of it. So I actually worked in the family business for pretty close to 12 years. When mum and dad retired and sold the property at Dural, I went to Singapore and I managed a company up there, still in the spice industry. Now, what was really interesting during those early days with the Somerset Cottage business, where we had these jars with a little black cottage on them and everything, we had so many loyal customers, people who really trusted our brand. So it was a little bit sad as time went on. The other big brands that you see in supermarkets now were purchased by the Americans and they spent a lot of money with the big supermarkets to get on the shelf and all that sort of thing. So although we even had a loyal following, it wasn't enough to keep us on the supermarket shelves. We really were pushed out, you could say. So when I was in Singapore, I was, uh, able to travel through the Asian region. Um, and that was when I really got totally obsessed with spices.

Speaker A: Were you inspired by all the colors

Speaker B: and all the colours, the aromas, the availability and the thing that was a really. Well, in life we all have an experience that sort of changes you. Um, when you were in the herb and spice business back in the 60s and 70s and even 80s, it was often considered to be a little bit weird when you're talking to people who are in the food trade. You know, so many varieties, no one really fully understands them. You know, it's. It's. People do see it as a bit strange. And when, uh, I was working in Singapore, the Singapore Manufacturers association and for some strange reason nominated me to go to the first International Spice Group meeting held in New Delhi in 1986, to represent Singapore and to talk about the spice trade in general in Singapore and various other things to do. It was an amazing moment for me. Here I was with 300 delegates, all in the spice industry. Indians.

Speaker A: Did you find your people?

Speaker B: People from overseas? Well, I said in my book Spice Travels that I felt someone who had been lost and found his tribe, because here was what I referred to as the Brotherhood of Spice Merchants. And I made.

Speaker A: And you were no longer the weird one?

Speaker B: No longer the weird one. No, no. And I came across people who had so much, uh, more knowledge than I had. And the other thing that I learned then too, was the ability of people and the willingness to share their knowledge. I always feel, and I have this strong belief that it's a real shame when people who have knowledge feel that they need to keep it to themselves and m not share it, because I have learned so much from other people. And that's been very much a part of our strategy in terms of informing other people. So when I came back from Singapore, I worked for a multinational company in Australia, uh, still in the food industry, in the spice industry. And in 1997. Well, it's actually 1996, Liz and I were walking along the beach on Daydream island, of all places. Our three daughters had grown up and left home. And we said to each other, what are we gonna do for the next 30 or 40 years? You know, Liz, very foolishly, as you would remember, had been secretary of the Food Media Club. And that only took up maybe a day, a week or a few days if we had a conference or something happening. So she very foolishly said, I'd like to be busier. And I foolishly said, well, I'm a bit over the corporate world. Do I wait until I'm pushed and get a golden parachute or do I jump? And I thought, well, I jumped.

Speaker A: So on Dream island, you two made that decision day Dream island and never looked back.

Speaker B: We said, well, we thought, let's start up a little spice business. We won't need any staff. It'll just be the two of us. So we sold our home that we had in the Blue Mountains. We bought a terrace house in Roselle in Sydney. We converted the front living room into a shop. We used the garage at the back to process the spices. We lived above the shop like Ronnie Barker in all our. That some people might still remember that TV show. And that was how we started the business. And we first day, we took $45. Lay one.

Speaker A: What did you sell? What made up that $45?

Speaker B: That $45, if I recall, was basically some paprika. It was some ginger, and I think it was a few different chilies. And that's 9-96- and that was the 7th of the 7th, 1997.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: That was the day we opened. Scariest day in our lives.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Anyway, funnily enough, the next day there was a tiny little bit in the Sydney Morning Herald in the good food section where they'd done a write up about Chrissy Manfield and Alex Herbert and called them the Spice Girls. And there's a tiny little box that said, Hemphill family's opened a new shop in Rozelle in Sydney. That was enough to have us inundated with people.

Speaker A: Shout out to Alex and Christine.

Speaker B: Absolutely. The interesting thing was that we also thought, will people know the difference? Because we bang on about quality. Now, quality is such a subjective issue. Um, everyone says that their product is the best quality. How do you.

Speaker A: Well, I mean, how do you identify an exceptional spice from an average one?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So anyway, after about three weeks, we had people coming back and saying, I can't believe it. I've cooked a recipe I've been making for years.

Speaker A: They could taste the difference.

Speaker B: It was so good. And we thought, okay, we're okay. We'll survive. And, uh, that was really the first six years. It was about survival, about all the challenges that you have when you're starting up a business completely from scratch. But we became more popular than we expected. We started employing people. We got to the stage where we couldn't produce what we needed to from our garage out the back of the shop. So we acquired a factory unit up on the central coast, which is where we operate now.

Speaker A: Now, when you were in Rozelle, you also opened the doors and started these masterclasses. You created these masterclasses. And I was fortunate enough to come to the very first one all those years ago. It was the first time I left my daughter at home and I came to the. And I was so, so excited. And Liz made scones for the first time for the public.

Speaker B: And they were Shamula scones.

Speaker A: They were. I still have that recipe, a shabula

Speaker B: scone with hummus with a little bit of cumin mixed through it. Yep, yeah, absolutely. And people would think, what a savory scone. You've got to be kidding.

Speaker A: It was, it was outstanding. It was a wonderful experience. And yeah, it's just a weird coincidence that we have that history.

Speaker B: It is, isn't it? And, but that's the lovely thing about food. There are so many of us who've interrelated with each other because we all have that idea about loving food. And as I think, very important. And the thing that I remember dear Margaret Fulton saying years ago, food is not a competition. Food is about caring and sharing. And you don't cook food just for your own gratification. You cook food because you want to share it with people. You want to see them enjoy it. It's all part of that community feeling. And that's why I think we have been so lucky, both of us, to have been involved in that side of the food industry where you get people who really care about what they're doing. And uh, naturally all businesses have to make a profit. You've all got to make sure that what you're doing is viable. But by the same token, there's that extra element in a business that actually makes it truly satisfying. So in terms of writing the books that I've written, first one was Spice Notes that came out in 2000. Uh, that was then published in America under the title the Spice and Herb Bible.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Which was a bit funny. I said to the Canadian publisher, uh, you can't call it that. You know, you can't call it Bible. He said, of course you can. He said, there's a cake decorator's Bible and there's the Woodworker's Bible, et cetera. So anyway, so that has now gone on to a third edition. It's now an 800 page tome and it's sold in Canada, the US, um, UK and Australia. And our daughter Kate, who grew up with herbs and spices, also, you know, in school holidays she'd roller skate around the factory.

Speaker A: Not dissimilar to you running around as a young child with your mom and dad.

Speaker B: Exactly. And Kate's always been a natural cook. Even as a teenager she would just, you know, we go to a restaurant and we come home and catered. So I could make that. And you know, two days later she'd make the same thing, probably a bit better. So I think the lovely thing is that Kate did all the recipes that are in the Spice and herb Bible. Um, and she and I have done a new book together called how to Add Flavor. And although Kate lives in the UK, the. She's been there for over 25 years. She trained as a chef at Pruleath School.

Speaker A: She's been there 25 years.

Speaker B: She's been there for 25 years. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Gosh, that's gone by quickly.

Speaker B: Eldest. Uh, her daughter turns, uh, 18 next week.

Speaker A: Okay. All right.

Speaker B: So, uh, here we are with these English grandchildren, which is really strange. But the lovely thing is, because of modern technology, Kate is essentially, she does our social media. She does all the recipes that go up on the website, she does the monthly communications. She's in effect, our marketing manager, and she's in London. Um, but she is also. We don't like to use the word passionate because as we all know, passions come and go. We like to use the term obsessed because when you're obsessed, that's it. You can't do.

Speaker A: She's equally obsessed.

Speaker B: She's equally obsessed.

Speaker A: She's passionate. It doesn't feel like work.

Speaker B: Exactly. That's right.

Speaker A: And the fact that you guys are doing it together, doesn't that just feel like, you know, a wonderful experience for the whole family and her children? Because in the last book you mentioned, she wrote the recipes, but didn't she test them on the grandchildren?

Speaker B: Yes, that's right. That's right. So her kids were the testing ground for that. And that new book, although the spice in her Bible covers, it's, uh, 800 pages of information. The new book, how to Add Flavor, is really for people starting a herb and spice journey. So we've only talked about 15 herbs and spices. They are, uh, herbs and spices that are available. Available in just about every shop or supermarket anywhere in the world.

Speaker A: So is the objective to create, um, a book that was simple recipes, but really elevate through knowing how to use spices properly.

Speaker B: Exactly. And to be able to eat good, natural, healthy food. We are, uh, not all that keen on the notion of so much ultra processed food that people are living on. And, uh, we have a very strong feeling that because in most parts of the world, but definitely in Australia, you can get hold of so many beautiful fresh ingredients, like some of the people that are in straight to the source produce. But you can eat great healthy food. You can do away with excessive salt, excessive sugar, excessive fat if the food tastes great. And so what we always say is herbs and spices make good natural food taste really good. So you don't miss Those things. And we get a lot of people who come to us whose physicians have told them to cut out salt, for instance, and they think, oh, my God, my food's gonna be boring. Reality. Make it taste good. Yeah, you might miss the salt for a few weeks. But if the food tastes good, it's not that the herbs and spices are a salt substitute, but they make the need for a lot of salt unnecessary. And unfortunately, through a lot of processed foods, a lot of salt has been greatly overused. I always say to people, look at the ingredient listing on labels, because salt is often the first ingredient. And that's because it's very heavy and it's very cheap. And so it's the best way to make an item more profitable. It's like adding more water to a sauce makes it cheaper. Uh, so one of the things that we really like to impress upon people is think natural and look at an ingredient list, understand what you're using, and bring flavor to everything. And that's really what Kate's done in this book so well, she's shown how with very simple recipes. I always say, uh, people say, I can't cook. And I will say, well, can you read?

Speaker A: If you can read, they can read. You go, here's a recipe, and here's spicy.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. And, uh, so it's that variety, and it's understanding the balance, how these flavors balance beautifully, too. So it's. It. It really is very, uh. It's very satisfying to get the feedback from people who say how much they appreciate the difference it makes to their cooking.

Speaker A: Well, when you think about your travels around the world and the different blends that you've managed to create, is that an area you thought you would go into? As advanced as you have as far as you have, because you've taken it to, like, a whole new level.

Speaker B: Never dreamt that I would. So I thought when we started, we made about 15 different blends. You know, we had a mixed herbs, we had a mixed spice, we had a pickling spice. Uh, but really, it's been driven very much a. From what we've seen. So we would be in the souk in Morocco. We'd be traveling, uh, through India and having beautiful lentil and dal dishes and all of that. And so we would think, well, how can we make these easy for people? We thought, oh, make a spice blend. So someone doesn't have to have eight or nine different herbs and spices to make that dish. But if they have a beautifully balanced blend with no artificial ingredients, then they can make it easily. And a lot of it's been driven by what people have asked for as well. So, uh, some years ago, a lady came to us and she said, look, I've just come back from Cambodia, and I had this most beautiful Amok fish curry. Do you think you could make a blend so I could make it easily? So I did my research. We went to some Cambodian restaurants. We tasted Cambodian food, did our research. I developed the Amok blend, which is an extremely popular blend. Very, very tasty. Works beautifully. So the blends now tend to be developed very much on the basis of what we can see people are asking for. We now make about 120 different spice blends. Every single blend we have developed ourselves, we never buy in a blend. So, for instance, the Middle Eastern za', atar, that is very popular, which is generally a blend of thyme, sesame, sumac, salt. And we also add oregano and parsley to our blend. But by the same token, I've used the. Because, you know, what's an authentic blend? Nothing's really authentic because everyone makes something a little bit differently. What I've done with the za' atar is make what I think will be the best. So I will use more sumac than will generally be used. I find that the addition of oregano and parsley helps to round it out and balance it beautifully. So it's little things like that where I will take something like Ras El Hanout, which, like the Ras El Hanout story, is interesting, actually, because it was funny in that article I mentioned. I think it was Chrissy Manfield who mentioned Raz El Hanout. We weren't making a Raz El Hanout. And someone came into the shop and said, oh, uh, I'm looking for Raz El Hanout. Oh, we don't have one. Liz said to me, get out the back and make a Russell.

Speaker A: Let's solve this problem immediately.

Speaker B: Exactly. And, uh, I'd already done a bit of research. I understood what should be in it. And this is a blend that's got about 20 different spices in it, uh, including saffron, real saffron. And I thought, okay, I will just go ahead and I will balance this. Because, as you know from the classes, I talk about the balance of the different sweet, pungent, tangy, hop amalgamating aspects, which is crucial in spices.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: And I'm not actually superstitious, but I do have the feeling that there may have been the ghost of an old spice trader looking over my shoulder. Because I made. I made the blend with 20 uh, one different spices in it, including saffron. Now, you'd think that'd be a dog's breakfast, but I made that. This fragrant was lovely, naturally, like everything. I gave that to Liz and I said, liz, could you cook this and give me your opinion? You know, does it need a bit of this, a bit more of that? Whatever. She just got some chicken pieces, dusted them with the ras el hanout, lightly pan fried them. We had a taste, and Liz said, absolutely perfect. Being a small business, it was being mixed, labeled, and packaged and on sale the next day.

Speaker A: And do you find that your customer following, because you do have a bit of a cult following.

Speaker B: We do.

Speaker A: So do you find that they don't even question it. They know if it's coming from herbies, it's quality, it's premium, it's balanced, it has integrity, the sourcing of it is. The supply chain element is all taken care of. You don't even have to think about it.

Speaker B: Exactly. And that's where we are lucky. And I do still like to use the word lucky, because it's fortunate that we have people that appreciate the effort that we put in. It would be devastating to put a lot of effort into something that you really care about and then find that, uh, people don't appreciate it. And of course, the other catch, Tonya, is it makes you feel inordinately responsible because you now know that you can't let people down. And sometimes because of seasonal aspects, whatever, sometimes spices are agricultural commodities. They will vary.

Speaker A: And also allergens and, oh, well, the

Speaker B: allergen thing, that's huge. But when it comes to that quality thing, if because of climatic conditions, whatever, we can't get a quality that we are happy with, well, I'm sorry, we just have to be out of stock because we're not gonna sell something that's inferior. But as you mentioned, the allergen control aspect is very important as well, because there are a lot of people with food intolerances. Now, it's not only nuts and gluten, but there are people who cannot eat chilies, people who can't eat, uh, onion and garlic.

Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about asafoetida. You can't say onion and garlic. And let's. Without us, uh, touching on asafoetida. So what is asafoetida, Ian?

Speaker B: Asafoetida is a SAP that is tapped from the lower stem of a giant fennel. Not the ordinary fennel that we see, but it's a different type of fennel. It's a Resinous SAP that comes out of that. And as a general rule, that SAP is then dried and then it will be compounded usually with some natural gum arabic and either wheat flour or rice flour. And that gives you a powder which is very easy to use. Now the interesting thing about asafoeteria, it's one of these things like fish sauce. When you smell it, you think, oh my God, how could I use that? It's often referred, used to be referred to as devil's dung.

Speaker A: Huh.

Speaker B: In the old English cookbooks, they would actually say, don't use it in your cooking. And the amazing thing about it is that the various Indian religions that are not allowed to eat any root vegetables, they can't eat anything that grows in the ground. Uh, and for that reason they can't eat onion and garlic.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But what they use instead is asafoetida. The Indians refer to it as hing. And it basically replaces that onion and garlic flavor profile.

Speaker A: Once it hits the oil.

Speaker B: Yeah. Once it, once it's cooked.

Speaker A: Once it's cooked, then the aromatics, it transforms into this beautiful fragrant. Yeah.

Speaker B: Well, the weird thing about it, you smell it on its own and you think, oh my God. But then once it's in food and it's with other spices, it's brilliant. The other interesting thing about, uh, asafoetida is that of course vegetarians eat a lot of beans. Right. And lent a lot of pulses. Okay. Uh, these tend to be gas producing. Right. And it's always been said that asafoetida is very good for helping wind.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Now, I don't know whether it helps prevent it or it helps you expel it, but whatever it does, it's a very almost must use in vegetarian diets.

Speaker A: Now if you have it in the resin form, I know a lot of chefs will put it under the lid.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Of the pot and then put the pot over the lentils or what have you. Does that do the same thing?

Speaker B: Very similar. That's right, yeah. It's the powder is just more convenient for people to use.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And the fact that the resin is so strong, if you, unless you have that in sort of, you know, triple sealed jar.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Your whole pantry will smell of asafoetida.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So, but it is very interesting and it's one of those characteristics, Indian spices. And as we've said before, you know, you think of things like fish sauce, the first time you smelt that, you thought, oh gee, should I use that? But in combination with other things works beautifully.

Speaker A: It's all about that balance.

Speaker B: It is, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: So with the tours, how many tours and what countries did you go to and are you doing any tours now?

Speaker B: We're not doing any more tours. So we've got to the age where we've done enough. Um, essentially a lot of our travels, just Liz and I were to research different herbs and spices. So when I was writing my first book and I started researching, this is before, you know, AI and Google, uh, and I'd go to libraries, et cetera, and I'd read about things. And I think that doesn't sound quite right. So I'd say, okay, let's go to Turkey, let's visit where they're growing sumac, let's see it being harvested, let's see it being processed so we fully understand it. So that was the sort of travels that we did. And you know, that was to southern Mexico for vanilla. It's been, of course, to India, it's been to various countries in Asia, um, you know, really lots of different places. But one of the things that we did very early in the piece was start to do some spice discovery tours.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And the reason was that we were, uh, talking to someone who actually happened to be a travel agent. And we were saying it'd be really great to be able to show people the peppercorns and actually come from a vine and there's a process in terms of how they're harvested, how they're dried, what gives them the. Wouldn't it be great to be able to show people? And he said, well, I'm a travel agent, I could help you organize. So that was our, ah, very first tour, uh, that we did actually in 1991. It was before we started Herbie Spices. And then after we started Herbie's Spices, we thought, yeah, this is a good way to educate people. And so over the last 25 years, we've done 19 tours.

Speaker A: Congratulations.

Speaker B: Yeah, and they've been fun. We've taken an average of between, um, sort of 16 to 20 people. And the lovely thing is, again, the people who have come with us have been interested in food.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Interested in travel, wanting to go to India, uh, of course, going with a purpose, to actually see the spices growing and learn more about them. And we have had so much fun. We've had such lovely groups of people travel with us. We just felt, yes, you know, we've done enough now, we'll leave that for something else. And would you believe Kate, who is

Speaker A: following in the footsteps.

Speaker B: Following in the footsteps. So she's had friends in London and also people that she's done cooking classes to, et cetera, who have expressed an interest. So Kate is in a way going to pick up where we've left off

Speaker A: under the Herbies brand.

Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. Well, she calls what she's doing in England, she calls Herbie's Kitchen. And I said to Kate, um, uh, you know, I wonder whether, you know, will your itinerary be very like ours? And she said, well, I'll probably change it a bit. She said, I think there'll probably be a bit more shopping and yoga

Speaker A: sort

Speaker B: of, you know, because you're talking about evolution. Evolution. You're Talking about your 40 to 50 year old age group.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: You know, not, uh, us who are now in our mid-70s.

Speaker A: Well, is there a spice that deserves more attention perhaps than it gets?

Speaker B: I think there is one, um, which I think is very underrated. Um, well, there's a few in a way, but probably the one that just has something special about it is a little seed called ajawan seed. Its other common name is often referred to as bishop's weed. And it's a tiny little seed and it has a very strong flavor like the herb, uh, thyme, with a slightly very faint peppery background note.

Speaker A: Is it grown in Australia?

Speaker B: No, no, it's not grown in Australia to my knowledge. It most of it really does come from India. And the interesting thing about ajwan seed is the fact that it contains the world's highest source of thymol, which is the volatile oil that you find in the herb thyme. So if you're looking at, uh, cough medicines, cough lollies, things like that, amongst the ingredient list, you will often see thymol. T H Y M M O uh L Now I think a lot of that is produced artificially now, but going back many years, all the thymol that was used medicinally was actually extracted from ajawan seeds. Now we make a Moroccan blend called Berbere. It's a very simple blend. Moroccan food has become very popular and I think a lot of the reason is because I tend to refer to it as user friendly Indian in that in Moroccan food, m almost got all the same spices that you find in Indian, but higher ratios of the sweeter spices, more cinnamon, higher ratio of ground coriander seed, very often sweet paprika. Uh, so it's basically the same flavors, but you'll find that it's a, um, gentler profile. Anyway, we decided to make this berbere spice blend and I was developing it and it's got Quite a lot of ground coriander in it. And it's got some pepper and it's got a few other spices, a little bit of ginger and allspice. And I thought, there's just something that it, uh, just needs something. And I thought, oh, I wonder how Ajuvan would go in there. Well, boy, did it lift it. And so this berbere blend is, you know, we have a recipe on the pack for a berberet chicken, which is delicious. But if you're frying up some mushrooms in butter, uh, and you just sprinkle a little bit of berbere with the mushrooms, just absolutely heavenly.

Speaker A: Goes to the spice. So if chefs are listening, is that a spice that they should, if they're not familiar with that, start experimenting with?

Speaker B: I reckon they should definitely start playing with it because they could be quite surprised. And they might think when they first smell it and chew on a few seeds, they might think, you know, or so what, uh, but once you find, you start combining it with things, not only are Moroccans type dishes, but with other dishes as well, it really is, uh, quite amazing.

Speaker A: Quite amazing how from a consistency point of view, have you been able to, I mean, with climate change and with supply and the ebb and flow of the seasons, how have you consistently been able to maintain that? Or does that go back to what you said earlier about out of stock if it's not up to scratch, essentially,

Speaker B: out of stock if it's not up to scratch. But generally, you see what happens is that from any particular source of supply, you will always get different grades, for instance, so you might find that, um, there's an issue, global issue with pepper prices because there's been monsoon, not a good monsoon, less pepper, you know, the vines producing less fruit. So what you find is that, that you might say, oh, well, we get the best pepper from India. But also in India, you get all different grades of pepper. So if you really wanted it, you could probably also get the worst grade from India as well. So just because it's from a particular country doesn't mean that it's the best. But what you always do is you always look for the best that you can get from that season, and that's what you're always after. Um, and as a general rule, we have found that fortunately, there are not too many things we've had to say we can't get any more. The one that causes us the greatest issues with supply and continuity of supply, I'm afraid, are some of the Australian native herbs and spices. Um, and that's an issue for many reasons, um, partly because it's very much an emerging industry, um, and it just doesn't have the trading history of even thousands of years the way your cinnamon and cloves and nutmeg and ginger and allspice have had.

Speaker A: Well, you mentioned earlier about that article in Good Food many years ago. And then the influence of the Spice Girls and you know, how, how important are trends to your spice blends? And when you're outsourcing new spices, do you pay attention to trends?

Speaker B: Oh yes, you're always. And uh, really what makes you pay attention to trends is what people ask for. M. So that's really. Again, we feel we're not in the business of really telling people what they should have. We're in the business of actually trying to understand what people are looking for. And if we feel we can solve that issue by developing whatever blend or whatever we'll do. There are not really many so called new spices. There are some that may, um, have not been used very much in cooking. And then people start to appreciate how that can be used. Uh, a lot of herbs and spices that have been used primarily medicinally. Uh, some of them are starting to get into the culinary sphere. Not a lot. But the big one, of course that everyone knows is turmeric.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Which has been known for years for its medicinal properties. But it's also, people often think of it just as the curry spice.

Speaker A: Whatever. Well, what's another forgotten spice that we should think about and maybe reintroduce?

Speaker B: Oh, goodness gracious.

Speaker A: Is there one that comes to mind?

Speaker B: I think that it's not a forgotten spice, but it's one that people are becoming more used to. Greatly underappreciated still. And that is Australian native lemon myrtle. And the reason I say that is that, see, Australian native herbs and spices very possibly could be the oldest plants on earth. And as you know, I think John Newton wrote a book about that called the. I think he called it the oldest plants on Earth. But their culinary use is relatively new. And from what I've been able to find out, the Australian Aborigines did use them, um, but probably almost more for their medicinal purposes than their flavor attributes. But what we find with a herb like lemon myrtle is that it is something that has a higher citral content than lemons, but it doesn't have the acidity of lemon. To me, it's a much better herb to use than lemongrass. I, uh, find using whole fresh lemon myrtle leaves in cooking is better than putting in pieces of lemongrass. And we all know that when you chop lemongrass, finally you get all these dreadful little hairs and.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Whereas if you use powdered dried lemon myrtle, ground dried lemon myrtle, it amalgamates beautifully with whatever you're cooking. So I make a laksa spice blend that has lemon myrtle in it. So here we are, we've got an Asian laksa blend, but I've used lemon myrtle. And that's the other thing that I always say is don't try and just put something in a pigeonhole and say it's just for that cuisine. Uh, another underappreciated one people are getting to know more is roasted wattle seeds. Wattle seed's got a beautiful roasted, almost coffee like flavor and it goes beautifully with all sorts of things. You know, we put it into chocolate brownies and chocolate biscuits.

Speaker A: It lends itself to sweet or savory.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And actually most spices do. That's the other thing that's a bit interesting. You would think of something like cumin, right? What's the curry spice? Oh yeah, it's used in Moroccan foods, used in Indian foods, used in Mexicans and tacos and et cetera. We were in Egypt, we had these beautiful little sweet shortbread biscuits with cumin seeds in them. And believe it or not, cumin goes beautifully with anything that's sweet. So here we are, we've got this so called curry spice and you put it with something sweet. And I have actually we all know the Egyptian, um, uh, blend of nuts and spices called dukka.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And dukka has quite a lot of cumin in it, right?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Now if you just make a sandwich with some honey, sprinkle dukka over that, it is absolutely delicious.

Speaker A: You know, Ian, uh, what I just love is you've had a lifetime dedicated to herbs and spices and you still get so excited when you talk about em, Your eyes light up, you're enthusiastic. I mean it's infectious and it's just, it makes me want to go home and just start cooking, you know, it's fantastic.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, they are great and you know, they are wonders of nature. They're very powerful. You know, you don't need to use a lot to make a big effect on your cooking and that's.

Speaker A: And that often can be a mistake that cooks and chefs make.

Speaker B: My experience has been a little bit it that chefs do tend to be a little bit overly cautious and often they don't use. They, they, they're a little bit worried about ramping up to that optimum level. If you know What I mean. And I've often found that I've had a dish I'll never forget. One time, we did a. A class with a chef, and we gave him the recipe for Shamoula scones.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Huh?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we said, this is the recipe. Follow this exactly. And Liz and I were doing the class, and the scones came out, and

Speaker A: Liz said, where's the chamoula?

Speaker B: And he said, I thought it was a bit too much, so I cut it back.

Speaker A: Okay, now, uh, give us a break. There's a recipe.

Speaker B: Follow it exactly. That's right. That's right. But so I think that. See, that's the other problem, too, is a lot of people say, especially in food service, people say, oh, don't give me any spicy food. Now, what they mean is they don't want too much chilli or perhaps pepper. Chilli and pepper are, uh, hot. But when people say to me, oh, don't give me any spices, I can't take spicy food, Liz. And I say to them, oh, dear, that's very sad. So no vanilla ice cream or cinnamon muffins for you then? Because they're spices.

Speaker A: Yes. You know, it's a term that's been, um, misconstrued.

Speaker B: It is a little bit. You see, the term spicy is a little bit of a problem. I like to use the word spiced. S, P, I, C, E, D. Because, you know, if you have a spiced Christmas pudding, you don't immediately think, oh, it's a spicy Christmas pudding. Yeah. So fair enough. I try to get people to think of the word spiced more than spicy.

Speaker A: I like it. I'm gonna think of it that way, too. And I'll help share the word. Yeah.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Yes. Well, Ann, this has been wonderful having you on the podc. And before we wrap up, is there a closing thought you would like to leave us with?

Speaker B: Goodness me. I think it would be just enjoy your spices. Smell them every time you use them. Remember, your sense of smell is the most powerful sense you've got. That's why people will sometimes smell something and think, oh, uh, reminds me of my grandmother's kitchen. Whatever. So when you smell, it goes straight to the limbic system in your brain. It comes immediately like that. And so I say to people, smell your spices every time you use them, even the ones you're really familiar with, because that way you will develop a smell memory, and you'll feel really comfortable using them in all sorts of ways. So they're there to be smelt, tasted, and enjoyed.

Speaker A: Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, my friend.

Speaker B: Ah, a pleasure. Thanks for listening in. We really hope you enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker A: We would be keen to hear from you. If you have a story to share or a topic that we should dive

Speaker B: into, drop us a line. We always love hearing from you.