Where were you when I was broke?

Welcome back to another episode of the Startup Therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by Will Schroeder, my friend, the founder and CEO of Startups.com. Will, they say that success has a million parents and that failure's an orphan, but every founder listening to this knows a pretty simple truth, and that most people only show up at two moments, right?

At the start of this race where no one is cheering them on, or at the end of it when, when all the fans finally arrive. Will, why is it that people who have the most to say after we win are often the same people who were absolutely nowhere to be found when we had nothing? blows my mind. And, you know, so this past week, just to kind of date stamp this episode, you know, uh, SpaceX goes public and Elon becomes a trillionaire, and an awful lot of people have an awfully strong opinion- Yeah on what he should do with his money, right?

Yeah. And, and basically just, just different, different versions of how, how they should take it from him. Yeah, whether it is his money at all in the first place. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Right? And so Elon is a terrible example of, b- of what I'm about to say because he's a rich kid that became a more rich kid. Yeah.

But when I look at this among anybody of any level of success, Elon is, is obviously an outlier, I always ask myself, "Where were you when I was broke?" Yeah. Or when they were broke, right? You know, where were you then?

And again, people always forget, my dates could be a little bit off but not far off, around 2007, I remember living in Los Angeles, and one of the big headlines at the time was how Elon Musk was fighting his way through bankruptcy court- Yeah um, and pleading with the judge to be able to keep his, quote, "pittance," by LA standards, right? Uh-huh. $30,000 a month, if I recall. That his friends were lending him- Yeah … because he had invested all of his money in SpaceX, you know- Yeah … and, and everything else.

And I thought it was fascinating because the people who were lending him money back then, and I can't remember exactly who. My, my memory isn't that good, but it was like the Google guys kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

And so this goes back to when he was in a bind, right? Yeah. When his back was against the wall, who was there for him, and who wasn't? Nobody.

And so if nobody's got his back then, right, how is it so many people have, have such a strong opinion on what he does with his money or what he's earned now, right? Well, because the whole world wants a piece of the win, but there were very few people who want a piece of the risk, right? Exactly. So they wanna show up after it's completely de-risked.

They're like, "This looks like a fun party now that it's a party- … and not somebody chopping their way through a jungle with a machete. Let's party." Yeah. Yeah, no thanks.

Yeah. So at a personal level, the way I've experienced this is, you know, like most founders early in my career, I'm struggling, I'm young, I'm alone, right? Yeah. And I'm trying to build something that no one understands.

At a time period, this is like, you know, early-mid-'90s that nobody understood what a startup was. We were explaining to people what the internet was at that point. Literally. That- Yes … that was my pitch.

Yep. It wasn't what we can do with the internet. This is the internet. It was what the internet even was.

Yeah. And I remember at that time, so figure I'm 19 at the time, I'm in college, and I remember I go to my guidance counselor, and I essentially was dropping out. And I sat with her and I explained to her, I was, I was so excited. And she was like, "Why are you so excited?"

that you're dropping out of college. Yeah. 'Cause back then, this is like circa '94, dropping out of college was not a sign of something good was about to happen. Right.

Right? This is usually where the guidance counselor leans in with help. And I was like, "But I'm starting an internet company." Uh-huh.

She's like- Oh, boy … "The internet?" Yeah. I said, "The internet, uh-huh." So, and I remember her giving me the opposite of help and guidance.

It was more like a what a fool you are for doing what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. She was kind, but in her mind, given her job, there was one path to life.

Yes. And she was the arbiter of that path, and if you deviated from that- If you play your cards right, you can grow up to be me, Will … yeah, I was like, you know, whatever, man. I think you said at some point that your guidance counselor even cost you a scholarship. Yeah, that was in high school.

It went off the back of a desk. There was a packet of papers that, that was just had to be submitted. The thing was done. We already knew the outcome.

Oh, brutal. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't particularly happy about that. Although- … it worked out.

Yeah, it, it worked out. But see, that's the thing. The it worked out sounds like a fine consolation when it works out. Yeah.

Statistically, it does not, okay? Yeah. So which makes this way worse. And so kind of the premise of, you know, what I wanted to dig into today is this concept that- As we go through this journey from, you know, the moment we're starting all to the moment where hopefully, when things go well and we're successful, the cast of characters, the supporting actors in this role changes quite a bit.

Oh, yeah. And I find it to be fascinating that the people at the beginning who should have been helping us the most- Yeah … aren't the people at the end who haven't done a goddamn thing to help us. Yeah. Right?

I mean, support's cheap- And you have very strong opinions about that … when it's obvious, right? When the outcome is obvious, support's cheap. Uh, everybody's like, "Yeah, oh, I'm very happy to pitch in now that you've won a game. Allow me."

But conversely, like, for as cheap as it is once the outcome is obvious, is so sacred when the outcome still looks insane. And I know you and I both have just a, a few people who helped along the way at those early stages that really, really made things different, right? Like, without that little bit of support, who knows what would've happened. And those little bits, like to me, the value of that early support, though it was little and far between, was so insanely valuable, right?

And, and like- Yeah … the amount of gratitude that we have for those people who were there at the early stages, wow. And where it's starting, and where most of the folks listening, you know, to this podcast are at right now, is that, those early stages. Let's start there, because I really wanna timestamp this for folks who are in this stage right now. Like a, a moment to say, hey, look around and take inventory right now, right?

Of who's supporting you. And remember that. Because if I rewind back, I think this is, this is kind of an interesting time machine timestamp for me. If I rewind back to those early years, I'm 19, I'm 20, I'm just getting out of college, meaning dropping out of college.

I don't know anything. I am completely broke. Yeah. And I have no recourse in life.

I think that's the most important detail here. When I started my company, I had exactly $19 in my checking account. I remember this distinctly because, Ryan, you've, you and I have talked about this. You, you can't withdraw twen- you can't withdraw- You can't withdraw … you can't withdraw 19.

You gotta have 20 to do it. That's why I had 19. "I need another dollar to get any of my money." Literally.

I, I mean- That's Pareto in effect right there … that's where I was at in life, right? You know, just to, to put that in perspective. And obviously not exactly rolling in dough. And, uh, anyway, I had no support structure whatsoever.

I was, uh, kinda, uh, divorced from my parents, so to speak. Yeah. So I, I didn't really even talk to them. And they had no idea what I was doing.

I moved to some weird place called Ohio from Connecticut, so- Wow … and they had never heard of. And this was a time where, like, you know, you didn't have social media, you didn't have, uh, even email yet. And so nobody had any idea what I was doing. I was just- Yep … again- Just gone … a fish out of water.

As I'm starting the company, my roommate, he, I'm telling him about it, and, uh, he, he and I were both theater majors, so we would go do acting jobs and stuff together. Uh-huh. Um, so like that's what, where our dialogue, you know, was. Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, so his dad was an accountant. Word got back to his dad that I was starting this company, and his dad was the only person that supported me, right? This guy hardly even knew me. Yeah.

He lent me $10,000. Yeah. Now, I just wanna put this in perspective. Number one, that was over 30 years ago, so that's… Let's call it 50 grand now, you know?

I- Right … it's not literally one for one, but, like, in how we might think of 50,000 right now. Well, it was, like, a 5,000% increase over your checking account. That's- Exactly. Exactly.

That's, that's the important part. Exactly. So I wanna look at that for a second. So, uh, his dad loans me $10,000, and he loans it to me at a 50% interest rate.

Now, I didn't know what usury was back then. Yeah, that's, uh- I would come to find out later … that might be illegal. So I mean, it's kind of funny. I- he's a great guy and I, I, I don't want to disparage him.

And I, I… And this will be a theme of this. I genuinely appreciate that loan because the probability that a 19-year-old kid with zero experience was ever gonna pay that much money back. Yeah. Hell, I don't know if I'd lend it to a kid now.

Right. Right? Like much- Yeah … less back then. He probably assumed he was getting exactly 0% interest on that loan.

It was a big risk, okay? But it really changed my trajectory. Fair. Like, I mean, it sounds crazy.

It allowed me to buy a laptop, which was way out of my price range at any level. Um- Well, they were also hella expensive back then. Oh my God, yeah. And it changed everything.

So eventually, you know, he, he got paid back. But when I looked around at my support structure of, of who would've been there back then, dude, it was, like, nobody. Right. I mean, like, literally nobody.

And I remember the first year that I was in college, uh, or second year I was in college, but first year I was in Ohio, uh, holidays come around and I'm in the dorms. It turns out that you have to leave the dorms and go home during the holidays, which for most people is just, like, rite of passage. It's what you do. Yeah.

Except I didn't have a home. It, like, didn't occur to me that I would- Yeah … get kicked out at this point. Makes it a challenge. Yeah.

Like, "Wait, I have to go? But where's my new room?" Yeah. That point for sure.

They're like, "You know, hey, it's, it's Thanksgiving, it's Christmas," whatever, you know, "Dorms are closing." And I'm like, "Wait, huh? What?" Anyway, so caught off guard and one of the new guys that I met, uh, down the hall from my dorm, um, says to me, "Hey, you can come home with us."

And so, so I go to his parents' house up in Cleveland for, uh, for the holidays for Thanksgiving, and I distinctly remember just sitting in my room working the entire time. Right? Like, he and his family were celebrating Christmas and I'm sitting working. Well, fast-forward 30 y- years later, I'm at his 50th birthday.

This is last year, and, uh, his parents are there. Now, I haven't seen his parents almost since then, right? Mm-hmm. But his parents come up to me and they're like, "We are so proud of what you've done."

Right. It was one of the coolest conversations ever, right? Uh, it was basically the, the conversation I would've loved to have had with my own parents. Yes.

But, like, uh, surrogated by them. And I remember thinking, "Man, at a time when I really needed it, you were there for me." Yeah. Right?

More so than even my own family. Right. And I, and I thought about that. I'm like… And then I, I rewound back and I said- How many people that are in my life now were, were helping me out back then?

Almost nobody. Almost nobody. I mean, it was cool that the one guy that helped me, I'm at his 50th birthday, right? But like- Yeah … almost nobody.

You know, it's funny, not that I would ever tell a founder once they've made their money how to spend their money, but here, here's one thing to think about. Get a wide angle lens for your camera. Uh, because early on you're not gonna need it, right? The early photos when it's still, it's just you're, you're in a garage that smells like failure, you don't need a wide angle lens.

But by the time you're victorious, by the time you sell that company, you're gonna need a wide angle lens 'cause everybody wants to participate in that victory. Yep. Yep. And look, man, like I do wanna say that, like, I don't think that all early doubt is malicious I agree.

Sometimes it's just, it's just people reacting reasonably to an unreasonable- Reasonably, yep … mission, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, y- your guidance counselor is like, "You're gonna start an internet company.

I don't even know what the internet is. This sounds like a bad idea. My job is to guide people through a university experience, so I'm gonna try to get you to do that." Yeah.

She doesn't know any better, right? Yeah, I agree. But, but the brutal part, man, is that founders already have doubt internally, and then the, the outside world piles on even more. And the only… With… As early founders, we don't need blind optimism from others.

It's not like we needed cheerleaders. Right, right. What we need is somebody that doesn't add weight to the bar, and I think that most people do think- Great way to put it … they're protecting us with their doubt. But dude, what they're usually doing is just sucking the oxygen out of an already deprived room.

Yeah. It's like- Yeah … "Now I really can't breathe. You're choking me out. This is already hard, and you're making this harder."

I love that analogy. Instead of spotting us on the bench- Yeah … they're sitting on the bar. Right? They lean over and they're like, "How's everybody's going down there?"

Like… I think about those early moments for founders, you know, c- so my own journey, but, like, for other founders, where nobody has their back. Yeah. Now, what's nice is there is exponentially more support th- for founders than there's ever been in the past, right? At the very least, being a founder is actually a job now.

Yeah. Whereas before it was just, you were just- It's the title. Yeah, yeah, exactly, right? Like, at least people understand.

And I kind of give two people, two Marks specifically, credit for this, Marc Andreessen and Mark Zuckerberg. Uh-huh. Marc Andreessen was the baby face of 1997 when- Yes … um, Net- Netscape went public. I lived this.

He's the one that, like, broke the, the ceiling. I say, like, broke the glass ceiling for rich white guys, but broke the, broke the glass ceiling for young people. Don't worry, it was insured. Yeah.

He was the first time people could look at a young person- Yeah and say, "Oh, maybe those people can create value- Uh-huh … out of something." 'Cause in the '90s it was largely, I mean, it was all young people, but it was largely this novelty factor. Like- Yep … look at this cute kid- Yeah, yeah … uh, doing a company, right? Yeah.

It was Alex P. Keaton and what was the other one? The, the doctor. Doogie Howser.

There you go. Yeah. But it w- it was exactly that, right? It is… Oh, funny note.

Uh, back then, you know, I was super young. I, I look like I was 12. A buddy of mine who I'd started a company with said to me, he's like, "You just have the Gary Coleman effect." Now, for those of you that don't know who Gary Coleman is, which, which would be forgiven considering that was back in the '80s, there was a popular sitcom in the '80s called Different Strokes.

Yes. And it was about these two young kids, and the one, Gary Coleman, who was, I think, Arnold Jackson, uh, he's just this, this young, cute kid, but he would always have these big one-liners and everything else like that. Uh-huh. But it turns out he actually in real life wasn't a kid.

He was- Yeah … like, 21 years old. 32, yeah. Right, right. And so anyway, I said to him, he's like, "You've got the Gary Coleman effect."

He said, "When you walk into a room, people are so blown away-" that you're so young and you look like a child, that if you say anything intelligent, you sound like a genius, right? Yeah. You like… It wasn't really a compliment. Um- Yeah … but I remember thinking that.

He's quick, he's quick for his age. And you're like- Yeah … "I'm 32." Uh. Exactly, right.

And so what was amazing, though, is at that time, you know, in that kind of era, in the, in the '90s, people had zero respect for young founders. Yeah, yeah. Because it kind of hadn't happened yet. Yeah.

And you had no analog. So the other side of it was, for guys like you and me during that time, there was no analog for our support system to say- Right … "Oh, this could work." The support system was exactly the opposite, in fact. Like, again, they thought they were helping.

But man, I, I felt like I was running around protecting this tiny little flame from everybody else's harsh words. They were all trying to blow- Yeah … my candle out with, with- Yeah … words of doubt. And look, I, again, I get it. I do understand, because what we were trying to do didn't really look all that sensical based on their- Yeah … model of the world.

It looked like something you should not do. Yeah. Now, that said, that said, again, it was harder back then just from a d- 'cause there was less of a support structure and less of a general understanding. Yeah.

I would say that finally got crystallized in the early 2000s with the other Mark being Mark Zuckerberg. 'Cause he was the comically young, over-the-top founder of a very visible, uh, consumer company. Very, very visible. And that was where the, the, the public started to say, "Oh, okay, you know, somebody that young, early, whatever, could actually create true value."

And he did. But the point is, in each of those cases, in the early formative years, no matter who you are, you're kind of on an island. Yeah. Right?

And it's a shitty place to be. There aren't that many people that really understand either what you're going through, or let's put it differently, how to support you. They feel like the support is telling you that it's a bad idea, right? It's not that they don't believe what we're doing yet, it's that they feel compelled to, like, make sure that we don't believe it either.

They're like- Right, right … "How can I change your mind about doing this thing?" Like, please don't, right? It's not what I need you here for right now. There's another side to that which is when people feel like they're warning you, it also creates a structural bias- Yeah … where they kinda want to be right.

If you fail- I told him so. Kinda, right? Yeah. So when Uncle whomever says to you, "Hey, I don't think that's a great idea"- Yeah he's not really saying, "I really hope that I'm wrong."

Like, "I hope- Yeah … that I'm wrong." I, I'm sure there's a kind part of him that, you know, doesn't wanna see you fail, but there's also another part of him that wants to be right- Yeah … about the fact that he tried to warn you. Oh, 100%. Right?

Or, or said differently, if you wanna test that theory, when you fail, see if he ever mentions it again. Yeah. I guarantee he will. It's like, "I told you so," right?

But here, here's where he doesn't seem so chatty. Years later when things go well. Uh-huh. Right?

And he's like, "Oh, man, I always knew you, uh, you were gonna make it." No, you didn't. Allow me to, to rever- re-review my diary where I… And see, those are tear marks- and that's, uh, what you said right next to those tears. Maybe, maybe correlated, maybe causal, I don't remember.

But th- that always struck me, because I had a lot of people in my life, as things started to go well, kind of change their narrative. Yeah, yeah. Like, "Oh my God, we were so proud of you. We, we always, uh, knew you could do it."

This just isn't my personality. I would never, like, call somebody out, try to make them feel bad. That brings me no pleasure. But in my mind I'm sitting there going, "Dude, you didn't even- Yeah … have my phone number back then, and there was no other way to reach me."

Yeah. "So basically, uh, you telling me that you were supportive while having no way to actually support me-" Kind of doesn't get lost though. Yeah. I have a pretty specific view on this, which is that the fair-weather fans don't really support founders.

What they support is their own proximity to success, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kind of that clear. Yep. And it's, it's sad, right? Because I'd argue they, you know, they're, they're not helping now and, and we don't need them now, and they missed out, right?

They- Yep … people miss out on, on what could've been something really, really exciting, really interesting, really special. And to your point from earlier, it didn't take much, right? Like, it was a couple of meals and, and a little bit of shelter and care over, over a holiday, right? It's not like we needed, like, well, yes, I stroked a million dollar check for them.

Didn't need a million dollar check, man. We just needed somebody d- not pressing down on the bar. When I think in terms of my roommate's dad who lent me $10,000. Yeah.

And people feel this way about investors, that was a tremendous amount of validation for me. Sure. Right? Huge.

Just hearing that someone else- Finally somebody pushing the other direction correct, right? Yeah. When the entire world was pushing, uh, against me- Yep … he was pushing from behind. Yeah.

Right? I adopted a phrase back then called you're either rowing the boat or you're, you're making it, or you're slowing it down. Yeah. Right?

So- Either- … if you're not rowing the boat with me- Either you're rowing or you're ballast Yeah. Exactly, right? And we used to talk about this with our teams, you know, not, like, in such an- Yep … incendiary way, but, like, you know, every day make sure you're rowing the boat, right? Yep.

'Cause if you're not, you know, you're slowing it down. Did you guys sing the song? What's that? Did you- We had a shanty.

Yeah. You sing Row, Row, Row Your Boat? Yeah, yeah. 'Cause that would've been an amazing team building moment.

Every morning we get to work and we sing Row, Row, Row Your Boat with our CEO, who looks like he's 12. It's not weird. Yeah. Right.

It's so weird. He's wearing a Stellarate uniform. It makes no sense. And so, like, we get this crossover moment where things start to go well for the first time, and it's awesome.

By the way, for folks that haven't hit that moment yet- The most bizarre thing, and I talked to a million founders about that, I was like, "At which point did you find out you were gonna be successful?" Et cetera. They consistently say, "It didn't occur to me until after, much later after it happened." It, th- there wasn't like a, like a big win moment, right?

And I always tell you the story about, you know, with the agency where we had this big colossal win. Mm-hmm. That was very defining. Like, that was- Yeah, yeah … clear, like that shit had just changed.

Yep. But generally, it's a whole bunch of just banging your head against the wall. Yeah. Until someday you just realize you're doing it a little bit less, but it, it's never a colossal moment where you're like- Yeah "Oh, my God," like you- All of a sudden life's just good.

There's no massive outcome. Right. But it's just like, "Hey, I have money now. I have a, a life that I enjoy.

I have a team that I enjoy. I'm helping clients that I enjoy." Life's great. Right.

Right? Yep. And it's interesting too, because with startups, part of where we tend to see those moments are in funding rounds. Not exclusively, but as an example, right?

Because when a company raises a bunch of money, there's usually a little bit of a, some fanfare around it. You know, maybe some media attention. Yeah. You know, some social media, whatever.

And it's a moment. It's a victory lap, if you will, for the, for the founder. And when that happens, I watch the same progression every time. Everyone comes out of the woodwork.

Always knew you could do it. You know, sounds awesome, amazing, whatever. Yeah. Invariably, there's the other side of that where the money runs out and they n- they need cash.

Now, l- let me, before I, I get into that part- Are they all still there trying to pump you up- Yeah, exactly and help you feel better- I- … that it's gonna keep going? No. Let me give you an example. I lived this.

And some of the folks that are, that, that I know listen to this podcast, you were part of this cycle of, of what happened, so, uh, y- some of you will remember this firsthand. I'm living in Santa Monica. And, uh, when we're raising for a company, and we'd done a very, very public seed round. Like, we had just phenomenal investors.

Um, we were like the, the talk of the town for this seed round. Uh, top of the food chain, right? High fives from everybody, et cetera. Well, fast-forward 18 months and the money's gone, right?

It wasn't that big of a seed round, like a million two or something like that. The money's gone, and now we're out on the road looking to do our series A. It's not going well, and all of a sudden nobody's talking to me. Yeah.

Nobody's high-fiving, right? And like, people at conferences or, or get-togethers are kind of avoiding me because, you know, I've got the scarlet letter. I can zoom. I'm guy who's failing publicly and cannot raise.

And I'm like, "Huh." Now, now let me give you some examples, okay? One of the, the, the people that, that wanna meet you first when you raise money are recruiters. Yeah.

For all the obvious reasons. Yep. You just have money. That's how they make money, right?

You know, that's- Yep th- they know that money goes to you. Yeah. It's the same way when somebody signs an NBA contract. Anybody that you're likely to spend with is about to become a real close friend.

You bet. You bet. You sign an NBA contract, and all of a sudden every car dealer and real estate agent, you know, has your number. So we raise a bunch of money.

I get introduced to, like, every, you know, hotshot recruiter in town, and by the way, they were all really good guys. So I- Yeah … this isn't me disparaging them. But invariably, right, when the money runs out, none of those guys are calling me. Yep.

Right? You know, they don't care about what I'm doing or I'm failing. And I find this to be fascinating because we get to see this, uh, cycle with lots of founders. Like, so y- yes, I've lived it, but I also get to watch it with other founders.

Like Ry, since you and I help people raise money, we're very well aware of what happens when they can't raise that money anymore. Yeah, yeah. Right? All of a sudden the world gets a lot smaller.

Yep. Like, really fast, right? Yeah. And all those people that, that just wanted to catch up don't wanna catch up anymore.

Nope. Right? And you can trade that zoom lens or that, that wide l- angle lens back in for the, the macro at that point. It's, it's you, yourself, and you.

The painful part for me wasn't necessarily that those people showed up. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, you know, yeah, it's fun. It's a victory lap or whatever.

Yeah. It's that they act like they were there the whole time. Yeah. That was when I got kinda like a little bit sour about it.

I was like, "You know, you're overplaying, uh, all of it a little bit. Like, you're retelling the story like you experienced some of it. You showed up eight minutes ago." Yeah.

Right. Right, right. Like, you can tell eight minutes worth of the story, how about I tell the rest? Uh, I think that's fascinating because again, when people are, you know, having, having their, their come up cycle, I see this over and over.

Whenever one of my friends starts to do really well, again, their company's doing really well, et cetera, all of a sudden everybody's always known them. Mm-hmm. Right? And everyone's always backed them.

You know, I'll give you an example at a d- different company, and I mentioned this before, but the, the last company I started, my co-founder was Jamie Siminoff, who would go on to start Ring, the doorbell company. Jamie's a, a great dude, but Jamie all of a sudden was 10 times better looking, 10 times more funny, 10 times more interesting after Ring, right? Yep. Like, as far as the people around him.

Yeah, yeah. And this is nothing to do with Jamie. It has to do with actually the- Oh, yeah. No, it's, it's not a reflection of him the people around him … it's how people's perceptions change and how, yeah, like how- And now everybody's always known him … they romanticize people.

Yeah … right? You know, oh my God, w- we've always supported him. Nope, you know what? Yeah.

I've known Jamie for a pretty long time. Mm-hmm. And, and I've seen him at, at different stages, and I'm well aware of the- Yeah support that he had at different stages, and it wasn't always a high-five fest. That dude worked his ass off to get where he's at, right?

Yeah. Yeah, you weren't supporting the dream. You're supporting the press release. That's cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I watched those journeys. I'll give you one more, and I've mentioned this before. Years ago, this is a long time ago, I looked this up the other day 'cause I was talking to somebody about it.

Uh, remember I told you that whole thing when Sam Altman sold his first company? Yeah. My date stamp's off here. Let, let's call it… Well, actually no, it'd been around 2011 'cause- Yep … 'cause that's when we're, we're launching Fundible.

Call it 2011, Sam Altman, as many of you know, who is the, uh, founder of OpenAI, so the, you know, the parent of ChatGPT. Sam had just sold his first company. Uh, he went through Y Combinator. He sold his first company for I think it was $40 million.

And he posts it on what is essentially the, the Y Combinator version of Reddit, their YC news site, yeah, Hacker News. He gets dogged by everybody on the site. Now, this is messed up for a whole bunch of reasons, okay? Number one, that's his home field.

Like, those are his people. Yeah. Right? Exactly.

That, that should have literally been high-fiving him. And all the people in the thread, you can look this up, all the people in the thread are basically saying he didn't sell for enough, raised too much money, what a waste, et cetera, right? And again, this is very much my feelings about about this matter have not changed. I get in there, I never comment on this stuff.

I just, just don't care. But this pissed me off, and I was like, "Fuck you guys." Yeah. Right?

I was like, "You guys are the people that are standing- Did you stretch out before you got into your armchair, Mr. Quarterback? Oh my God, dude. Did you?

But seriously, I was like, I was like, "Fuck you guys." Like, you guys are the people that are standing at the end of a triathlon or a marathon- Yeah … telling the people crossing the finish line that they didn't run fast enough. Uh-huh. But you're not the person in the race.

No. You have no right to be able to dog this guy, and I, I didn't know this guy from Adam, right? And so, so Sam writes back to me, and he's like, "Dude, thank you. You're like the only person that supported me."

He's like, "If you're ever in Palo Alto, I would love to grab lunch with you." So just so happens, the next month I was in Palo Alto, and so, you know, he and I grab lunch. Just this super sweet kid. Now, who would've known he'd go on to become the, the guy that he's become?

But I use that story to illustrate that it's important to have a founder's back when nobody else has a founder's back. Yeah. Not because they'll become Sam Altman someday. Yeah.

But because we as founders are typically the only support structure that really understands why that support is needed. You know, something that's really funny about everything we talk about here is that none of it is new. Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. You may just not know it, but that's okay.

That's kind of what we're here to do. We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually solve these problems all day long at groups.startups.com.

So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing about what to do. Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. There's another hidden danger in there, man, and, and it's not just the, the resentment that we have around this or don't. But the danger, I think, and this is why it's so important to have some of those founders in the corner so that you got people to turn to post success too.

Because I, I think there's a big danger- Yeah, good point … in letting late arriving voices influence post success decisions, right? The people who were not there for the risk Often have really terrible advice about the reward. And so I think that it's really, really important that you've got a few of those people in there that you can bounce off, 'cause you're about to have a whole lot more voices. That's a b- bunch, bunch more people are gonna show up for the photo.

Yep. But I think it's important to go back and say, "Who was actually here through all of this? Who understands the context, everything that I sacrificed to do this?" And let's let that voice be just a little bit louder than everybody who showed up eight seconds ago.

I have this thing that I do, and I've been doing for a very long time, where I show up in a founder's life as the Ghost of Christmas past, present, and future. Let me explain to this show, and they'll remember one of these visits by Ghost of Will. Here's what it looks like. Either something really bad or really good happened to you, right?

Really bad, and this has been on, on numerous occasions, really bad whereby, uh, something public went down. Yeah. Where, like, uh, you got fired from your own board. Yes.

Or, you know, that you, you ran out of money, whatever. And I do this weird thing where I call those people, even if I've never met them in my entire life. Yeah. And I say, "Listen, you have no idea who I am.

Maybe you do, right? But I'm calling because I think you need help." And I have no purpose for that call. Like, there's no end game in that call.

Yeah. I do it because I think it's the right thing to be done. But I can think of quite a few founders that are listening to this podcast right now that, that know when I showed up to do this. But what I wanna do is explain why I show up to do it.

Yeah. Right? Because I genuinely believe in that moment that a single conversation can change that trajectory. I genuinely believe that, since a lot of those conversations have come full circle, and, you know, folks have, have gone on to, you know, turn things around.

Time and time again, they'll come back to me, which I think is very cool, and say, "Dude, when the chips were down, like, you were the only person that called me." I'll give you just some, like, kind of examples, and of course they're totally an- an- anonymized, but, like, I had a guy that I talked to once. Again, total stranger, and he would tell me years later, and he was in tears while he's telling me. He was like, "Will, I'm not even kidding you, I had a gun in my lap when you called me."

Oh my God. Right? I know. I, I… Whoa.

I was like, "Did-" Yeah. "Didn't see that coming," right? Yeah, yeah. Um, and he's like, "Listen, I know that's a lot of information."

He's like, "That's where I was," right? He's like, "I just wanna thank you for, like, ca- like, calling a stranger," right? Yep. And that one kind of blew me away.

In other cases, it was a case where the founder was like, "At that moment, all I needed, man, was anybody to tell me it was gonna be okay." Yeah, yeah. "Because everyone around me was telling me the opposite," right? You know, and, and life was telling me the opposite.

I just needed, like, a, a light to, you know, s- uh, shine on, on what I was doing. There's something really important there, which is that real support is actually measured as much by its timing- Yeah. Oh, ag- good point … as the content of the messaging, right? Mm-hmm.

Like, it's not like you had to tell him anything earth-shattering, right? Just like, "Hey- I see you- Yeah … right, in this moment. Right, yeah. But you'll be all right.

The message is almost pedestrian in some cases. The stuff that you and I received wasn't like it was earth-shattering advice or, or, you know, millions of dollars in support, but the timing of it matters a ton. And so- Um- … again, it's important for us as founders to be there for other founders for this very reason. I'll give you one more example just because he talks about this publicly, so this, uh, I'll say who it is, and he's, he's a listener.

So you know Andrew Gazdecki? Uh- Oh, yeah … Gaz is the founder of acquire.com. Yep.

Uh, when Gaz was first getting started, this was a long time ago, when it was called Microacquire. I'd heard about the business. For no reason, I called him out of the blue, right? And at some point, he's such, such a great guy, and he was like- Will, why are you calling me?

I mean, like, you can say, like, he was a question- Yeah … he, he was happy about it, right? Yeah. But I was like, "Dude, I'm literally calling you to figure out how I can help you," right? Yeah.

He's like, "Seriously?" And I was like, "I have no end game in this. I- Yeah … just wanna be helpful in some way." And as the years have gone on, we've become really good friends, and he'd always refer back to that.

He's like- Yeah … "Dude, I'm still blown away that you just called me just to help me, with no end game, with no outcome, whatever, just to see if I needed help." And I'm sure, just because of the, the kind of guy he is, that he's gone on to do that for other people. 100%. I do think that, that, that seed germinates.

But again, doing what we're calling the time stamp there, when nobody was helping you, then fast-forward to the other side, where all of a sudden everybody wants to help you. Mm. Right? You know, things are going well and everybody's coming out of the woodwork, et cetera.

And l- let me, let me talk about ghost of Christmas Future that shows up at that moment, okay? So I've got one guy again, we'll remain anonymous, who I called out of the blue, never met this guy before in my life, when the chips were down. Like, something very public happened- Mm … where, where he got kind of crucified by his own board, and I saw it it in the news and I said, uh, "Let me help this guy out." Yeah.

And that's actually how I got You might be the only person who's not a lawyer that's calling this guy. Exactly, right? And, and of course, like it's skeptical, like who, who is this guy and whatever. Uh-huh.

Years later, I get a text message, this is actually like a year or so ago, and he said, "X million," like a lot of money, "just got wired into my bank account." And, uh, and he's like, "I wanted you to be the first to know," right? It is awesome. And just like the biggest smile on my face.

It was also 5:00 in the morning, he knew I was the only person that was up and working at that time. Yeah. Sorry to call you so late, Will, but… But here's what I said to him. I s- "Congratulations," all that, "and we need to talk immediately."

Uh. Right? And so, so we get together, uh, we get together for, we're doing dinner, and I said, "Listen, man, before all of the congratulations come in and before everyone looks at your cash and figures out- Yes how to make it their cash, a few words of, of advice, because this happens all the time." Right, I'm sure we've done like a whole podcast- I, we have … on this subject.

Yeah. So I won't belabor it, but I say, "Listen, everyone is going to figure out a way to take title to your money." Yeah. Right?

They're gonna feel like it's deserved to them in some way, usually in one of two camps. Either they feel connected to it in some way and so they feel like they should get a part of it, which is sometimes true, or they don't have it. Yeah. Simply by that proxy- Yeah … you somehow magically owe it to them.

Isn't that funny? Um- That's such a funny mentality to me. It's like, because it's the same person who will tell you you didn't really earn all of that either, right? Like you had a team- Mm-hmm … you had whatever.

Like y- you didn't really earn that money, but I should get some. Like, well, dude, you definitely didn't earn any of it. Yeah. What the fuck are you talking about?

Like what are you actually talking about? That's art, right? I, you know, it's funny- Yeah … I, I remember the first time I encountered this, and I really had… And this was a, I, I guess I was a founder at that point, but you know, my, my little cattle business that I ran from age 11 until 16, I remember driving to school the first day in the car that I bought cash. I pull in, I get out, and the first thing anybody says to me, they looked at the car and they looked back at me and they went, "Must be nice."

You must be nice. Yep. And I was like, "You asshole." Right?

You know what wasn't nice? Getting up at 5:00 o'clock in the morning to feed those things when they were babies. I had to bucket feed 10 cows- Yep, yep. Must be nice … twice a year every year for, like, six years to build the cash to buy that car.

So yeah, it must be nice. Yep. It must be nice that I'm, I'm now driving a car no longer doing that. But, uh, yeah, where were you on all those- Yep … cold-ass winter mornings when I was freezing my butt off?

Just, it's so crazy how people can just begrudge us something we've truly, truly earned. And look, it's the way I feel about a lot of things in life where there's, the, a, a third party can never really appreciate what it took to get there. It's the way I feel about combat veterans, right? And I'm like, "I can't possibly thank you enough, because I actually have no context for what you went through-" No, none … to make that thank you meaningful.

It's thank you anyway, but… Or the other side of it is parents, right? Yeah. Where, like, kid turns out good or kid turns out bad. It's like, you know how hard that parent had to work in t- terms of frustration, commitment- Yep … et cetera, to get that outcome either way?

You know? Right. I was like, it's intense. And so when I see this other side, when I get the text message that a whole bunch of money landed in my account, and I jump in to say, "Okay, let's talk about how to keep it in your account," I basically have a bit of a speech, I guess, that I explain.

And just the, the heart of the speech is this: You earned every single penny of that money, right? However you choose to spend it, it's your money, right? It's no one else's money, and no one has right or title- Yeah … to what you own. Now, at some point, I become a character out of Atlas Shrugged, right?

Where I come and I talk like Midas or somebody that, like, you know what I'm saying, and try to talk, talk to people. But that's not really, it's not, like, a political thing. It's me basically saying, "You earned it. The decisions are yours and no one else's.

And more importantly, when you think about who's about to extract this money from you, a really important anchor-" is what did they do to earn it for you? Yeah. Right? Like, where were they in the support structure?

And they might've been phenomenal. Like, if your parents underwrote everything you did- Yeah … and they ask for money, it's up to you. I have no opinion on what you do with your money, but I could see that. Yeah.

But if they didn't- Mm-hmm … right? Like, uh, uh, in the case of my parents, my parents had a negative contribution to my career and my life, not a positive one, right? Yeah. Like, they owe me a debt in life.

And if you knew the story, you'd understand why I'm saying this. Yes. And I, I don't say it lightly. I know the story, and I agree.

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, people are like, "Oh, did you buy your parents a new house?" I did not. No.

I did not. They failed to provide one of those for me when I was, uh, eight years old, so- Yeah, exactly, right? I think about that in terms of a whole bunch of people that all of a sudden feel like, like you owe them a debt, and I think it's dangerous gambit. Because it's really easy to get lured into that, because you're like, "Well, now I have something I didn't have before.

These people don't have something that I have now." Yeah. "And I should help." Now, this is different from me saying if, if you truly wanna help those people, by all means, do it, right?

This isn't anti-help, it's anti-debt. If I decide to buy Mom a house because I just wanna do it, cool, but do I owe it to her? Correct. Like, did she do something?

I know Mom's a bad example, 'cause if she raised you and, you know, brought you into this world meaningfully, then yeah, m- maybe sh- debt would be okay. But Uncle Jimmy, who all he ever really did was just naysay the entire time- Yeah … I don't owe that guy shit. What's the ROI on all the doubt I poured into your startup? Uh, how much- Mm-hmm … of your cap table did that get me?

Yeah. You're on the crap table, Jimmy, not the cap table. Fuck out of here. Never heard that.

What we look at, though, is we look at the people that actually did help us, and like, those are the bricks of our foundation. Yep. Right? And it spans.

It's spouses, it's family, it's coworkers. Yeah. It's friends, it's other founders, you know, however, however you would label those. There are some people who were the bricks of that foundation.

You know where I… Like, I want to be the bricks of other founders' foundations. And we see it all the time in the feedback from, uh, founders on the startups.com platform, where they're like, "Damn, dude, finally someone saying something that isn't negative to me." Yeah.

Right? Or s- or said differently, and this is a, a lot of what this podcast addresses, they're basically saying that what I'm going through, even though it sucks, is okay. Yeah. You know, I, I said something to a founder last week during one of my getting customer sessions and, and it was basically telling him, "Look, I don't fully get-" This, but I'm not going to be another person making you defend it, right?

Which is that other class of support- Yeah … which is like, I'm not gonna make the bar heavier. I'm not gonna push down on you. I may not get it yet, and that's okay. I don't have to.

Right. I don't have to get it the way you get it, but I'm definitely not gonna make you defend it. I'm definitely not gonna d- try to make you feel bad about it. And sometimes that was all they needed.

Like, you could just see the relief on this person's face, like, just wash over them through Zoom. Yeah. You could see the whole posture relax. It's like, oh, thank God, right?

Because everybody else that said they don't get it is also telling me I must just be wrong because they don't get it, right? Yep. Like, people told us we were wrong. Like, the internet's never gonna go anywhere.

People told Zuckerberg he was wrong. People don't wanna talk to the people. Like, you know, like, everybody's been told they were wrong. When you're doing something brand new, what they mean isn't you're wrong.

It's mean I can't see it yet. Well, guess what? Yeah. Good news.

Yeah. You're not the founder of this company. You don't have to. Out of the way.

Right. I got it. Yeah. I'm good.

If you're not rowing, you're, you're slowing us down. What blows my mind, right, is how few bricks there were in my foundation. Doesn't take a lot. It doesn't take a lot, right?

Yeah. It doesn't take a lot, and it was far fewer than, than people think. So I think from the outside, going back to what you said a moment ago, where you're saying, "Hey, must be nice." Must be nice is a generalization.

It's easy to make, you know, when you see people on the other side of you. You see the guy roll up in a Ferrari, and you're like, oh- Yeah … you know, must be nice. But you don't understand what it took to get there. It's the way I feel about professional athletes, right?

If you've won a gold medal at the Olympics, I don't think people understand how much dedication and sacrifice it took. It wasn't that you were just really good at swimming or skiing. Yeah. It's that you had to be the best in the world.

Yeah. And in order to be the best in the world, you had to sacrifice literally every part of your life- Everything else … for your entire life. Like, like the- Yeah … what it took or, or, you know, if you're a star in the NFL, it's like, yes, you were probably in many cases a gifted athlete, you know, as, as far as your physique, physique. Yeah.

But gifted athlete doesn't get you out of bed. Gi- No … gifted athlete doesn't pick you up after somebody just clobbered you into the turf, right? Yeah. Like, that was you, and it was very, very hard to do.

And I think for a lot of people, when they see these things from the outside, they just see the outcome, right? They don't see the work that it took to get to that outcome. But you know who doesn't have that problem? Other founders.

Yeah. Right? Like, again, this is, this is what I said about, like, I know that some other people may understand my journey, but I'm 100% that other founders understand my journey. Sure.

In fact, uh, you know, let me give you a vignette. I didn't get a chance to share this with you, 'cause it happened last week. Last week, I'm out with a, a friend of mine. He's, uh, he's in his, uh, early 80s, a great guy that I've known for a really long time, a very successful founder, and I wanted to show him the house that I was building, because he actually had, uh, he was part of the journey.

He actually connected- Mm … me to the architect, you know, et cetera. We were going through the house. We spent like, uh, an hour together, you know, going through it, and I'm showing him every single detail. You've been through this house tour, so you know what I'm talking about.

And I p- poured my heart and soul into this thing. And at the end of it, uh, he looks at me, uh, like a proud father, and he's like, he's like, "Will, I'm so proud of you." And he said, uh, "I know what it took to get here," and I'm not talking about the build of the house, right? Yeah.

Like, you know, "What it took for you to get here, because I've done it. I've, 50 years of my own business, you know, sweating it out, doing the same thing." And he's like, "I'm proud of what you built. This is a sweet house."

He's like, "But I'm proud of the person you became to be able to build this." Yeah. Right? Worth its weight in gold.

And that's somebody who's earned the right to say that kind of thing and give that kind of support, right? Ig- exactly. Because that can ring real hollow from somebody… It, look, and they may intend well, but, like, when we hear- Yeah … those kind of things from people who we know have no context, have no understanding for what we actually did to get it, they recognize- Yep … the receipt, right? And that's it.

They don't recognize all the work that went into to being able to pay for it, right? Which is powerful, right? And to your point, he's earned the right to that, to the weight of that comment. Yeah.

Right? Again, it's the same way that I've got a friend that, that we both know that's Special Forces, right, in the military. Yes. And, and whenever there are special days, like a Memorial Day or Veterans Day or whatever, I always reach out, tell him ex- and how incredibly thankful I am, um, for what he's done and the commitment that he's made.

But I also al- always point out, "And I can't appreciate it the way another- Yeah … combat veteran would," right? Like, I've never been shot at, knock on wood. Um, so let's hope I keep that streak. Uh, I don't appreciate it in the same way, but, but I at least have the self-awareness- To be able to say like, you know, s- "For as much as I, I respect your commitment and what you've done for our country, I can never see it, uh, uh, the way you would," right?

Yeah. Now, to be fair- And have it- … exactly zero people in my life have ever given me the same consideration. They've never said like, "Hey, I've never built, you know, uh, built a company or had to take the sacrifice you have, but I respect the fact that you know you go along." But I say this in, in terms of earned right.

When I see someone do really well, like the, the… Again, I'll go back to the friend of mine who, you know, gets millions of dollars wired into his bank account. Part of that speech is me saying, "You've earned this. You deserve this, and what you do with it only matters by what's i- what's important to you." To you.

Right? Again, a whole bunch of people are gonna have, uh, opinions on, on what you do with this money. Yes. But the only one that matters is yours.

Funny how what you should do with it almost always involves them somehow, right? Yeah, and I, I think what's interesting about that is- Most of the founders that I see that have done really well, they're obviously smart and ambitious, w- uh, whatever. Yeah. But there's also a, a pretty significant emotional torrent going on inside them.

Kinda how couldn't there be? Because a l- all, a lot just happened. Yeah. And then all of these, call it debts, right?

These implied or, or literal debts all come due, right? It's all these people coming out of the woodwork saying, "Hey, man, can you loan me some money?" Yeah. Hmm.

Yeah, dude. Success does not create supporters, but it certainly reveals opportunists. Right, and, and I always find that fascinating because I think in terms of the person that reaches out to me, I had a friend that had reached out to me early on in my career, and he said, uh… And, and things were going well, so, like, and, I mean, things were kind of visible that things were going well. And he said, uh, "Hey, man, can you loan me $20,000?"

Pause right there. That is a massive loan, right? Yeah. It wasn't a business loan.

Just casual. He, like, literally personal. A casual ask. Yeah.

Yeah. He's like, "I've gotta pay down some credit card debt." And I was like, "Huh. The balls."

Yeah. Just like… And, and like, I, I liked him a lot. He was a good friend. Oh, geez.

Weird. What's crazy is he had the worst pitch of all time. His pitch was basically like, "Look, man, just over the years, my credit cards just k- like, kept piling up." He's like, "I'd, you know, I'd see an Xbox, and I'd want it, and I'd buy it."

Ah. "And then I'd regret it later." And- Yeah and I'm like, "This is everything you should not say to a lender." Yeah, yeah.

It was the- You want me to be responsible for you. No, thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, uh, needless to say, I didn't give him money, but he's still a friend.

But I say that to say, like, no lack of people are gonna come for that, that withdrawal, so to speak. And the draw comes, not just monetarily. I, I use that a lot just because it's easy to understand. But a lot of it's, "You should thank me for how I, I helped you."

It… Look, and if they have, by all means, do it. Yeah. And, and let me, let me re- rewind back to, to that story where my friend's parents had helped me at Christmas time. Like I mentioned, last year, I got to see them at my buddy's 50th birthday party, and it was amazing at how well they remembered that moment.

Mm-hmm. Right? And so… And they're just great parents. And so w- uh, we're sitting there over drinks, you know, celebrating their, their son's, uh, birthday, and the dad says to me, he's like, "Man, all I remember when you came to visit us for, for Christmas was that you were in the guest room, and our son could not get you to come out of the guest room because he said you would just… wouldn't stop working."

And I was like, "That would go on for the rest of my life, right?" Yeah. Yeah. They're still trying.

and his mom, sweet as could be." It's like, all I remember is you left a giant stain on the wall. And what it was is I was sitting on the bed, and I had long hair that probably hadn't been washed in a long time. Oh, my God.

And the back of my head was leaning against the wall. Oh. And, and apparently like, like I left a spot of what had to be grease. That's amazing.

Just so gross in its own right, right? But not surprising. That's amazing. I know I wasn't, like, that filthy of a human, but I had pr- a lot of product in my hair.

Have they painted over it? Because if not, there's a really interesting piece of art. We go extract that drywall, and then, like, just as, like, a testament to the work ethic. I like that.

I just love that, that 30 years later, that's how she remembers me. And, and so anyway, so you know, th- they were through, you know, through our son, we've followed your career. You know, we're super proud of what you've done and everything else like that. And I remember saying to them, "I want you to understand how thankful I am that in a moment where I needed it the most, you guys were there for me."

And it wasn't… Uh, I didn't say this, but it wasn't that they did some, like, extraordinary thing. Yeah. They did something simple that wasn't slowing the boat down. Imagine if they hadn't done that, and I w- I don't know where I would've been, but certainly by myself on Christmas- Yeah … which would've been, like, just depressing at a whole- Yeah … a whole lot of levels.

With nowhere to go and essentially homeless, that would've sucked, right? A- and so yes, maybe I was working the whole time, but I was working a place where I felt support. Yeah. Right?

And, and- Yeah, you were safe, so you could work … safe. Right? Right, man. Yeah.

Um, and I say this to say I think when we think about supporting founders, you know, through the journey, kind of being there when nobody else is, what you keep hearing me say is it's not these just extraordinary things where, you know, y- you lent somebody money or whatever. Sometimes you just said the right thing at the right time, right? You know, that, that was supportive. Sometimes you didn't say a goddamn thing.

You were just there to listen. Just there. You know, it's making me think, Will, we should start an entirely new concept here, the emotional seed round. The emotional support seed round, right?

Mm-hmm. Just let people get in, get on something that's way more important than the cap table and just be like, "You know, I'm gonna commit to being there to listen, being there to…" I mean, this is this kind of stuff you and I do every day. I'd love to see it formalized in some way. I'm telling you, man, if I truly take inventory and I look back at those years and I say, you know, "How many people were really there for me, you know, when, when I had nothing?"

I guarantee it's less than 10 people. I mean, I've met thousands and thousands of people. I have over 10,000 contacts in my, in my phone book and then that… And when I say that, like, that's, those are contacts I actually typed in one by one, not just, like, a social media feed. And so I've met a lot of people.

It blows me away. Now, mind you, my universe was much smaller back then, but it blows me away at how few people it took to build that foundation. Yeah. It, it wasn't, "Here are hundreds of people that helped me out."

Right. Sound amazing, right? It was, like, five or 10 people that helped me. Uh-huh.

Out of all the people I, you know, I, I would go on to meet. And what's interesting is some of the people who I've referenced, like my friend's parents- And by the way, that m- uh, my friend, I know he's, listens to the podcast, so thank you, of course. I've told him thank you a million times. But it's amazing at how just those little things were instead of it becoming, like, a hole or a pit that I was about to fall into, it became just a little bit, tiny springboard.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Pushed me a little bit further ahead.

It wasn't the $10,000 itself- Yeah … that made all the difference. It was the fact that somebody was even willing to give it to me. Yes. Yeah.

That was all the difference. And I think about that, I'm like, "Man, you guys deserve my act- support forever," right? Like, I'm, I'm down for that. But everyone else… Yeah.

Less so. I don't feel quite as indebted. You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure.

So look, when we finally cross the line, like, I think it's really easy to get distracted by the noise at the finish, right? Yep. The applause, the admiration, the people suddenly reaching out to say that they always knew that you were going to be a big success. Look, that's fine.

Let them cheer. Yeah. Yeah. But, but don't confuse those cheers with the support that actually got us there, right?

Those few, few bricks that you keep talking about in the foundation that actually made a big difference at the time we really, really needed it. The people who matter the most are rarely the ones yelling from the podium. They're the ones who carried the water when nobody was watching, who stood next to us and when the bet still looked really, really terrible, who believed there… But before there was any kind of proof. Those are the people who earned the right to be in the story, and those are the ones that, that we should try to be for founders going forward.

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