95% of Emissions, 14% of the Capital: The Bond Market Mispricing in Plain Sight | Elizabeth Alm, Saturna Capital (#137)

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Up next on the SRI 360 podcast. 2 - > SPEAKER_01: I remember I was on an archaeological dig in Luxor 3 - > digging in the dirt and I pulled out a piece of newspaper. 4 - > It was from the 1840s London. 5 - > It took me 50 interviews to land my first job.

6 - > I had never opened Excel my first day of work after college. 7 - > I didn't even know how Bond works. 8 - > So if I can get here, you can too. 9 - > I love bonds because of how beautifully tangible they are.

10 - > They impact our daily life from the roads we drive to the 11 - > hospitals we go to or even the universities that we attend. 12 - > I was horrified. 13 - > I had just had this deep connection with this community 14 - > and the people there. 15 - > And when war starts, it can be very easy for us in the West to 16 - > dismiss the reality of war.

17 - > But just having that personal connection to this place, it 18 - > makes a conflict real. 19 - > SPEAKER_02: Unlock the potential of your investments to improve 20 - > the world and make high performance return. 21 - > Welcome to Sustainable and Responsible Investing 360. 22 - > My name is Scott Arnell, and each week I sit down with a 23 - > world-class investor to uncover their secrets of profitable ESP, 24 - > impact, and socially responsible investing.

25 - > Find out more at SRI360.com. 26 - > In 2003, my guest today was on an archaeological dig in Luxor, 27 - > Egypt, when she reached into the dirt and pulled out a scrap of 28 - > newspaper. 29 - > She started reading it, standing in the middle of the desert, and 30 - > realized it was printed in London in the 1840s.

31 - > She didn't become an archaeologist, she became a bond 32 - > investor. 33 - > But the instinct from that dig, piecing together a story from 34 - > fragments that other people walk past, turned out to be the same 35 - > instinct that now drives how she finds risk that the market 36 - > hasn't priced. 37 - > And today I'm speaking with Elizabeth Elm, co-portfolio 38 - > manager at Sauturna Capital, the oldest and largest sharia asset 39 - > manager in the United States, where she helps run a global 40 - > sustainable bond fund and an Islamic Sakoup Fund.

41 - > Elizabeth didn't come to finance through the front door. 42 - > She did 50 interviews before anyone hired her. 43 - > She opened Excel for the first time on day one and spent her 44 - > first week on a trading desk when Bear Stearns collapsed. 45 - > 11 years at Wells Fargo followed, while municipal bonds, 46 - > Detroit, Puerto Rico, and climate risk quietly started to 47 - > show up in credit spreads.

48 - > And the lesson she took from 2008 that the pattern can break 49 - > and the market will miss the risks it isn't looking for is 50 - > exactly what eventually brought her to Saturna, where 51 - > sustainable investing isn't a side strategy, it's the whole 52 - > point. 53 - > In this conversation, we get into why she's convinced the 54 - > bond market and not the stock market is where the climate 55 - > transition actually gets financed. 56 - > Why she throws out the third-party ESG scores and hunts 57 - > for what she calls climate alpha, and what she means when 58 - > she says sovereigns with high physical climate risk are 59 - > already 18% more likely to default.

60 - > We also talk about a month-long research trip across the Middle 61 - > East that ended just five days before a war broke out this 62 - > year. 63 - > Why issuers may be changing their labels, but not their 64 - > plans, and how, in her own words, that's exactly where the 65 - > archaeology comes in. 66 - > And now please meet my guest, Elizabeth Elm. 67 - > Thank you first and foremost for being a part of this community.

68 - > But it's driving me crazy that over 83% of you that listen to 69 - > or watch this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to this 70 - > show. 71 - > So could I ask you for a favor before we start today? 72 - > If you like the show and if you like what we do here and you 73 - > want to support us, the free and simple way that you can do just 74 - > that is by hitting the subscribe button or following us on your 75 - > podcast app. 76 - > It helps this channel more than you know.

77 - > Thank you and enjoy this episode. 78 - > Elizabeth, welcome to the show. 79 - > Thanks for coming on today. 80 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.

81 - > SPEAKER_02: So you're from Connecticut. 82 - > My wife is from Connecticut, and the little bit I know about that 83 - > state comes from her. 84 - > So tell me, what was your life like growing up there? 85 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm actually from rural Connecticut in 86 - > Hartford County.

87 - > So I grew up on five acres and in a town of 4,000 people. 88 - > So my origins were very rural. 89 - > I spent my childhood pretty much playing outside and climbing 90 - > trees. 91 - > I'm the daughter of a professional musician.

92 - > And my dad, he was in finance. 93 - > He's actually a professional negotiator in the um aircraft 94 - > industry, negotiating pricing contracts. 95 - > So I think I had a good blend of creativity and the seeds of 96 - > finance. 97 - > SPEAKER_02: So your father is a professional musician in 98 - > addition to being a negotiator.

99 - > SPEAKER_01: Uh no, my mom's a musician. 100 - > And my dad wasn't finance. 101 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 102 - > And what kind of music?

103 - > SPEAKER_01: She is a professional classical flutist. 104 - > She played in the Hartford Symphony and does a lot of work 105 - > teaching students and music education. 106 - > So it was wonderful. 107 - > I grew up, yeah, every morning waking up to the sound of 108 - > classical music when she was practicing her flute.

109 - > SPEAKER_02: Oh, very, very cool. 110 - > You specified rural Connecticut. 111 - > Is that a big distinction in Connecticut? 112 - > SPEAKER_01: It is.

113 - > I think that anyone from Connecticut kind of envisions 114 - > there are two Connecticut. 115 - > There's the Connecticut where people who work in New York live 116 - > and uh commute into the city, and then there's the rest of 117 - > Connecticut, which is definitely a different flavor, more rural, 118 - > a lot of tiny towns, but uh very bucolic. 119 - > SPEAKER_02: Right. 120 - > Sounds uh idyllic, actually.

121 - > So then uh around 2003, you off to the big city to New York to 122 - > NYU, and you went to study economics and anthropology at 123 - > NYU, which to me seems like an unusual combination. 124 - > If I had asked you at age 20 what your life was going to look 125 - > like at age 40, what would you have told me at that point? 126 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I definitely do not have a straight line to 127 - > finance. 128 - > Uh, not one of those kids who knew in high school that they 129 - > were destined to go into numbers and financial world.

130 - > I had most of my childhood in high school envisioned more of a 131 - > creative path following my mom's footsteps, more going into 132 - > music, maybe art. 133 - > But I have to say that my dad, he planted the seeds when I was 134 - > growing up. 135 - > Uh, I learned math by balancing a checking account. 136 - > I opened my first brokerage account at age 10, and where I 137 - > was already picking stocks as a kid and financed some of my 138 - > music recordings.

139 - > I I was a singer in high school and financed that with uh stock 140 - > picks. 141 - > When I wanted anything as a kid, I was uh forced to write a 142 - > research proposal for cost-benefit analysis to make 143 - > the case for having whatever I wanted. 144 - > And my current research is eerily similar in form to what I 145 - > had to do as a kid. 146 - > So when I went into college, had no idea I was going into 147 - > finance.

148 - > I um had a realization that maybe I didn't want to go into 149 - > the arts. 150 - > It's it's a really hard life, but I'd always been fascinated 151 - > by ancient cultures. 152 - > I envisioned myself getting a PhD in archaeology or ancient 153 - > Egypt and spending my life as a researcher. 154 - > And so, in order for me to go to NYU, I needed parents to co-sign 155 - > my loans.

156 - > And their criterion for co-signing was that I also major 157 - > in something useful. 158 - > And that useful majors list was pretty short. 159 - > It was business, finance, or econ. 160 - > SPEAKER_02: But then you paired it with anthropology.

161 - > SPEAKER_01: I did, yes. 162 - > From having all of those different classes, I would have 163 - > to say that archaeology and finance are a lot more similar 164 - > than they may first appear because think about it, you're 165 - > taking information from disparate sources and trying to 166 - > construct a story. 167 - > And so the actual thought or the creativity behind each of those 168 - > disciplines is I find that it works very well together. 169 - > SPEAKER_02: So you're studying anthropology at NYU, but at some 170 - > point you end up standing inside a tomb in Luxor, which is in 171 - > Egypt, watching the lid of uh sarcophagus being lifted up and 172 - > dust in the air everywhere, light coming in through the 173 - > entrance.

174 - > Paint that picture for me. 175 - > What were you doing there and what happened in that moment? 176 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you have some of these seminal moments in 177 - > life. 178 - > For me, going and studying abroad in Egypt and working on 179 - > an archaeological dig in Luxor was one of those dreams for me.

180 - > And it was everything I could have dreamed of. 181 - > I loved the whole process of digging in the ground and the 182 - > stories that we uncovered in the earth. 183 - > And I think that that kind of, you know, finding the treasure 184 - > or finding the history through this process of uncovering the 185 - > dirt, so to speak, was so fascinating to me. 186 - > I guess one real interesting moment is I remember I was 187 - > digging in the dirt and I pulled out a piece of newspaper and I 188 - > started reading it.

189 - > And then I realized I'm reading this and I'm in the middle of 190 - > Egypt, in the middle of the desert. 191 - > Like I'm reading a piece of newspaper, and it was from the 192 - > 1840s London, a newspaper article. 193 - > And we had actually found the trash pile of former British 194 - > native who had come there and had lived in the place where we 195 - > were digging, probably robbing the tomb that we were currently 196 - > uncovering. 197 - > So there's a lot of complicated history there as well.

198 - > But just the layers of stories that we found were fascinating 199 - > and inspiring. 200 - > I remember when we were digging, we had actually found a 201 - > sarcophagus at the dig site in original context, right on the 202 - > bedrock of the mountain. 203 - > That British explorer who had lived there actually built his 204 - > house over that sarcophagus, over the fine. 205 - > So he never actually found it himself.

206 - > And uh we uncovered the sarcophagus, we dug it up, we 207 - > were in the tomb opening it. 208 - > Uh Egyptian television actually came for the opening of this 209 - > sarcophagus. 210 - > SPEAKER_02: So you already alluded to that there's a direct 211 - > methodological connection between how you approached 212 - > archaeology and how you analyze bonds today. 213 - > Maybe you can unpack that a little more.

214 - > What specifically transfers, what's the toolkit overlap 215 - > between excavating a tomb and evaluating a bond issue? 216 - > SPEAKER_01: Once I got back from Egypt, I had a realization that 217 - > yeah, I had six figures of student loans. 218 - > And I just didn't think I wanted to go the path of being a 219 - > professor. 220 - > And so it just so happens I had a roommate who was in venture 221 - > capital uh financing green energy technology.

222 - > And she's like, you know, this could be a good fit for you. 223 - > Uh, it's really interesting work. 224 - > She made the connection. 225 - > I ended up starting at this uh VC company.

226 - > And I just found that a lot of those thought processes were the 227 - > same because it's not something, you're not painting a story 228 - > that's given to you, right, with these kind of investments. 229 - > You have to take information from a lot of different sources. 230 - > What's presented to you, what you can do with your own 231 - > research, but there's also a lot of creativity of thought to 232 - > piece those things together, taking that information from 233 - > disparate sources and putting it together in a sort of mosaic.

234 - > SPEAKER_02: So you had this incredible experience in Egypt. 235 - > You're passionate about archaeology, and then you come 236 - > home and the reality of a six-figured student dead hits 237 - > you, and you're thinking, Hey, I don't remember this scene from 238 - > Raiders of the Lost Ark. 239 - > When did you accept that archaeology wasn't going to be 240 - > that bad for you? 241 - > SPEAKER_01: Probably six months after I got home, sort of the 242 - > reality of graduation and just also what I really liked doing 243 - > on a day-to-day basis.

244 - > I also sort of sort of learned some of the realities of the 245 - > academic path in life and some of the challenges that that had. 246 - > And I started to get more and more interested in my finance 247 - > classes as well. 248 - > I've always had also a technical mind. 249 - > I love data, data analytics.

250 - > I loved the math component too. 251 - > So I thought that there could be a path forward for me in 252 - > investments. 253 - > And I have to say, I remembered when I was a kid with my dad 254 - > picking those stocks and learning about them. 255 - > And of course, when you're in high school, the stocks I 256 - > picked.

257 - > I think I picked Harley Davidson because I wanted a motorcycle 258 - > and my parents wouldn't let me have one. 259 - > You stuff like that. 260 - > But I remember the joy and the interest I had in the stock 261 - > market. 262 - > And I thought that the world of investments could be the way 263 - > forward for me.

264 - > SPEAKER_02: So you got out of school and decided, okay, you're 265 - > going to go into finance. 266 - > Is that how it happened? 267 - > And then how did you get that first job? 268 - > SPEAKER_01: I think coming into a very competitive finance world 269 - > with a non-traditional background is difficult.

270 - > I think one of the main things that helped me was my sheer 271 - > stubborn tenacity. 272 - > It took me 50 interviews during that first semester, five, zero, 273 - > 50 interviews in that first semester of college to finally 274 - > find a job when I graduated. 275 - > So I had a lot of failures. 276 - > I had a lot of humility and a lot of times where I was like, 277 - > well my gosh, I'll maybe never find a job.

278 - > But it turns out that when you find the right fit, that can be 279 - > essential. 280 - > I ended up going into a rotational investment management 281 - > program at Wells Capital Management, the institutional 282 - > management arm of Wells Fargo at the time. 283 - > And it was a great fit because I would get to rotate around 284 - > different parts of the business and figure out where I thought 285 - > I'd want to fit. 286 - > SPEAKER_02: When you said Wells Capital Management, I think 287 - > that's the old Wells Fargo capital asset management firm.

288 - > What did they finally see in you when they hired you? 289 - > SPEAKER_01: I'm just very tenacious and stubborn. 290 - > And in the end, I think what clinched it is just finding the 291 - > right fit, finding the right person. 292 - > It's non-traditional to have someone talk about what they 293 - > learned on their archaeological dig when they're interviewing 294 - > for a finance physician.

295 - > And I think that they were looking for somebody that could 296 - > learn, somebody that would have flexibility of thought and who 297 - > was analytical. 298 - > And, you know, they saw something in me and ended up 299 - > offering me a job. 300 - > SPEAKER_02: And on your first day, you opened up Excel for the 301 - > first time in your life. 302 - > SPEAKER_01: That is correct.

303 - > Since I had no previous finance classes, uh, they handed me a 304 - > sheet about bond basics. 305 - > What is the maturity? 306 - > What is a coupon? 307 - > I learned Excel.

308 - > I took night classes in accounting. 309 - > I took Excel classes. 310 - > I studied for the CFA exams and ended up getting my charter. 311 - > I failed each exam once because I had no background in finance, 312 - > but I think, you know, it's just a uh a lifelong passion for 313 - > learning drove me forward.

314 - > SPEAKER_02: And you spent 11 years at Wells Fargo working in 315 - > high yield and investment grade municipal bonds. 316 - > And I think you entered around 2007 or 2008. 317 - > This was a period of time there was the Great Recession, and you 318 - > working in fixed income lived through some of the most 319 - > significant US credit events in a generation in that crisis 320 - > aftermath, the Meredith Whitney Muni default call, you know, 321 - > Detroit's bankruptcy, Puerto Rico's restructuring.

322 - > If you had to distill those 11 years into two or three most 323 - > important lessons about risk that you maybe still carry with 324 - > you today, what are they? 325 - > SPEAKER_01: Oh wow. 326 - > It was quite an experience starting when I did. 327 - > I think coming in, you know, in 2008, I had just joined the 328 - > municipal bond team right around when the financial crisis 329 - > happened.

330 - > So it was my first week or two on the trading desk when Bear 331 - > Stearns went under. 332 - > And I think that is a really interesting perspective to start 333 - > your investment career in because it lays a foundation 334 - > that even though things haven't historically happened before, 335 - > that the pattern can break. 336 - > And this is really important and it's definitely foundational 337 - > when I look at things like climate risk or risks that are 338 - > not accounted for.

339 - > I mean, if we just think about that crisis, the rating agencies 340 - > didn't catch it. 341 - > The market didn't catch it. 342 - > The true risk was not priced into the financial instruments. 343 - > And the people who did see it had that flexibility of thought 344 - > and were willing to break from standard historical patterns to 345 - > actually see the mispricing.

346 - > And that is something that I take with me in all sorts of 347 - > sustainability analysis. 348 - > You know, we're not relying on what's happened before. 349 - > We have to look to the future and find those risks that the 350 - > market is not catching. 351 - > SPEAKER_02: The big recession crash was brought on by other 352 - > things, but you also started when you were working in 353 - > municipals, you started to see things like climate started to 354 - > show up in Muni credit, like Hurricane Sandy and Hurricane 355 - > Harvey and California wildfire risks starting to appear in 356 - > disclosures.

357 - > At that point, were you just like watching this with your 358 - > eyes wide open, or did you start to correlate credit and climate 359 - > at that point? 360 - > SPEAKER_01: I think it was a longer process. 361 - > What's really beautiful about the Mini Bond market, my 362 - > training in bonds was uniquely tangible. 363 - > My introduction to fixed income was very much, you know, we're 364 - > evaluating the new span of the Bay Bridge, and I'm in a hard 365 - > hat inside the bridge looking at the new construction, or I'm 366 - > sitting at the back of a kindergarten classroom 367 - > evaluating the credit quality of a school, or walking through a 368 - > land development deal looking at the infrastructure that's going 369 - > in in this development.

370 - > So for me, it's always just been very tangible in terms of an 371 - > asset class. 372 - > And it was more towards the end of my tenure at Wells that I 373 - > started to more make that connection and get passionate 374 - > about integrating sustainability and climate risk into the 375 - > investment process. 376 - > I think just working in a big organization, you know, things 377 - > move more slowly in terms of that sort of incorporation or 378 - > that sort of process.

379 - > And I started to get interested in going to a firm where values 380 - > investment was more of a core tenant or a core strategy. 381 - > SPEAKER_02: So that brings us to around 2018. 382 - > You leave Wells Fargo Asset Management, you know, which at 383 - > the time was one of the largest asset managers in the world. 384 - > And then you move to Saturna Capital, which is where you're 385 - > at today, a private employee-owned shop in 386 - > Bellingham, Washington, with a fraction of the AUM.

387 - > And you probably can't get further away from Wall Street 388 - > than Bellingham, Washington, and still be in the United States. 389 - > So tell me how that came about and why. 390 - > SPEAKER_01: I started to get really interested, as I 391 - > mentioned, it's more of a values-based, sustainable 392 - > investment path. 393 - > I also just having spent time in Egypt, I'm a world traveler, I 394 - > love the global context of the market.

395 - > I was really interested in going to global bonds. 396 - > And when I saw the job at Saturna, it was pretty much my 397 - > dream position. 398 - > I love working in a small team. 399 - > There's a lot more flexibility for innovative thinking or 400 - > innovative investments.

401 - > And so that fit very well. 402 - > And Bellingham, Washington offered a wonderful quality of 403 - > life. 404 - > Definitely an upgrade for me personally. 405 - > It's subjective, but for me, uh San Francisco wasn't fitting 406 - > what I wanted out of life.

407 - > I now live on a dirt road on five acres of land, and I have 408 - > less than an hour to get up to skiing and hiking. 409 - > And you know, we have the ocean, we have the mountains, and so 410 - > it's a beautiful balance. 411 - > SPEAKER_02: So you have stood up in front of rooms full of people 412 - > and said, I love bonds. 413 - > And I imagine you get strange looks when you say that.

414 - > What is it about bonds that Creates that level of passion in 415 - > you. 416 - > SPEAKER_01: I do. 417 - > I love bonds. 418 - > And it is a passion of mine.

419 - > What I absolutely adore is how uniquely tangible this asset 420 - > class is. 421 - > I mean, if we think about it, bonds are the biggest asset 422 - > class in the world. 423 - > They're bigger than equities. 424 - > And they impact all of our daily lives, whether we think about 425 - > them or not.

426 - > The roads you drive, the schools you send your kids to, 427 - > hospitals, universities, bridges, you know, most 428 - > infrastructure is financed with debt. 429 - > So we interact with the debt market on a daily basis, whether 430 - > we think about it or not. 431 - > And I love that about it. 432 - > I love that direct connection between the financial markets 433 - > and a physical result.

434 - > And I think that there's so much possibility in the bond market. 435 - > We're going to need all forms of financing: bonds, equities, 436 - > blended finance, in order to achieve climate goals or reduce 437 - > risk, build resilience in terms of a sustainability perspective. 438 - > And bonds have a great role to play there. 439 - > SPEAKER_02: For listeners who aren't familiar with Saturday, 440 - > give me the one-minute version.

441 - > What is the company who owns it? 442 - > What's the structure? 443 - > And what makes it different from the big name asset managers most 444 - > people know? 445 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, Saturna, we have two fund families.

446 - > We have the Amana funds, which are aligned to Sharia 447 - > principles, suitable for Muslim investors, and then we have our 448 - > sustainable fund family. 449 - > And both funds have a global focus. 450 - > What's really cool about Saturna, one thing that makes us 451 - > unique is that we are the oldest and largest Sharia asset manager 452 - > in the United States. 453 - > So firm was founded about 40 years ago when the founder, Nick 454 - > Kaiser, had a friend, Dr.

455 - > Mirza, who was seeking investment suitable for Muslims. 456 - > And Dr. 457 - > Mirza didn't know a lot about investing. 458 - > Nick didn't know a lot about his friend's faith, but together 459 - > they ended up founding the first, uh, the Amana Income 460 - > Fund, which is the first equity fund for Muslim investors in the 461 - > US.

462 - > And from there, Saturna capital grew. 463 - > That analysis, that values-based investing is really in the 464 - > tenets of Islamic investing, in the tenants of Islam, there are 465 - > a lot of things that are very congruent with sustainable 466 - > investing. 467 - > And so the analysis for both types of investments and the 468 - > screening, they're very similar. 469 - > And that's why a little over a decade ago, about 11 years ago, 470 - > Saturna started the sustainable funds because of that, that 471 - > ability for those types of analysis to be very similar and 472 - > work together and similar evaluation process.

473 - > So the real fixed income component of the firm started 474 - > about 11 years ago. 475 - > So we have both funds, the Amana Participation Fund that we run, 476 - > and also the Saturna Sustainable Global Bond Fund, both passed 477 - > their 10-year anniversary last year. 478 - > SPEAKER_02: Congratulations. 479 - > You're the deputy portfolio manager on the Saturna 480 - > Sustainable Bond Fund, alongside Patrick Drum, who's a friend of 481 - > the podcast.

482 - > He was on the show actually at episode 16, and he appeared with 483 - > a younger version of Scott Arnell. 484 - > And uh you are the deputy portfolio manager on the Amana 485 - > Participation Fund, and you are the portfolio manager on the 486 - > Sextant Bond Income Fund and the Idaho Tax Exam Fund. 487 - > So that's a lot of mandates across different universes. 488 - > Walk me through each of these and tell me how they connect.

489 - > SPEAKER_01: The exciting thing is that Saturna, we have 490 - > recently gone through a consolidation of funds as uh 491 - > just before the end of the first quarter. 492 - > And so we rolled the US-focused sextant bond funds into the 493 - > sustainable fund. 494 - > A few years ago, we also discontinued Idaho because the 495 - > firm is really focusing in all our resources to values-based 496 - > sustainable investing. 497 - > So now we just have two funds.

498 - > We have the Saturna Global Sustainable Bond Fund, and 499 - > Patrick and I are now co-portfolio managers on that. 500 - > And uh we have a team member, Pierce, who is deputy on that 501 - > fund. 502 - > And then we have the Amana Participation Fund, which is a 503 - > SACUP fund in line with uh Sharia principles. 504 - > And Patrick is lead on that fund, and I'm deputy portfolio 505 - > manager.

506 - > SPEAKER_02: Okay, so these other the sextant and the Idaho tax 507 - > exempt thing, that's gone. 508 - > SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah. 509 - > The uh focus is really exciting for us and definitely reflects 510 - > the deep commitment of Saturna for the sustainable strategy. 511 - > SPEAKER_02: Now let's drill down a bit.

512 - > Walk me through your investment process for the sustainable bond 513 - > fund and tell me how you balance the financial characteristics 514 - > with the ESG and Sharia overlays. 515 - > SPEAKER_01: Excellent. 516 - > I think it it's good here just to break down the two funds for 517 - > the definitions. 518 - > So the AMANA participation fund, that's a sharia compliant fund.

519 - > It holds secuk, which are Islamic income-producing 520 - > certificates. 521 - > And I'll go into a bit of those structure later because I think 522 - > it is important. 523 - > So this is part of our Amanna fund family. 524 - > Uh we focus on primarily holding US dollar sekuk, and all 525 - > holdings have to be sharia compliant.

526 - > And then separately, we have a global sustainable bond that 527 - > holds traditional debt, and traditional bonds aren't sharia 528 - > compliant because there's a prohibition on usury. 529 - > And so the sustainable bond fund, there's a lot more 530 - > flexibility in that fund because we can look worldwide and we can 531 - > also hold Secook. 532 - > However, across all of our fixed income process, there's a lot of 533 - > similarities. 534 - > First, the negative screenings.

535 - > We have negative screenings in both of the funds, sustainable 536 - > and sharia strategies. 537 - > So we avoid alcohol, tobacco, weapons, gambling, pornography. 538 - > The one difference is that in the prospectus for the 539 - > sustainable bond fund, it prohibits investing in fossil 540 - > fuel extraction, production, and refining. 541 - > The participation fund lacks that particular prohibition in 542 - > the prospectus, just given the investment universe we're 543 - > working with.

544 - > However, in practice, you know, the allocations in that sector 545 - > are very small, especially given the accompanying risks. 546 - > But our risk and evaluative process are pretty much the same 547 - > in terms of credit, governance, exposure to climate risk, 548 - > traditional financial analysis and use of proceeds. 549 - > But I think it's important to clarify, you know, we do invest 550 - > in the emerging markets. 551 - > And I think a lot of the first reactions to for a lot of people 552 - > is that expectation of volatility or high risk.

553 - > And very much culturally at Saturna, we focus on risk 554 - > reduction, investing through cycles, and minimizing 555 - > volatility. 556 - > We have the same sort of, if we do purchase use of proceeds 557 - > bonds, and use of proceeds to cook, we have a pretty extensive 558 - > due diligence structure in terms of how we evaluate those use of 559 - > proceeds. 560 - > SPEAKER_02: In your funds prospectus, you explicitly state 561 - > you do not use third-party ESG ratings.

562 - > Why don't you use these? 563 - > And what did you see in those ratings that made you say no 564 - > thanks? 565 - > SPEAKER_01: You see, we don't like anything that's a black box 566 - > to us. 567 - > We very much prefer to do the due diligence ourselves and know 568 - > the full story.

569 - > With our investment process, it is very much of a fully 570 - > integrated process. 571 - > So we're looking at all of the technical considerations that 572 - > you normally would in fixed income, right? 573 - > Curve positioning, relative value, currency diversification, 574 - > obviously fundamentals, good balance sheet governance. 575 - > But in terms of the actual ESG rating, uh, we just think that 576 - > there's so much more to the story than a number.

577 - > So we're looking at risks evaluated through ESG lens. 578 - > Obviously, climate change, carbon risk, regulatory and 579 - > transitional risks, as well as like full ESG integration for 580 - > material KPIs. 581 - > Then we're also looking at positive ESG attributes like uh 582 - > opportunities in the climate transition, resource efficiency, 583 - > as well as business ethics and diversity. 584 - > We find that there are times when an issuer may have a low 585 - > score, but they have started to demonstrate some real governance 586 - > changes or real strategic changes on the corporate level 587 - > that we find exciting, or a change in trajectory.

588 - > So that trajectory is going to change before any sort of score 589 - > reflects that, right? 590 - > These things take time. 591 - > And there's the opportunity for, I guess I would say, ESG or 592 - > climate alpha, where you can see that transition maybe before the 593 - > markets, before the ESG scores, and reap the benefit of that 594 - > improved governance. 595 - > SPEAKER_02: You said that the thing you love most about your 596 - > job is telling specific stories about specific bonds.

597 - > So let's do that. 598 - > Give me the story. 599 - > You know, what does the bond actually finance? 600 - > Who benefits from the use of the bonds?

601 - > And how did you get to the point of buying it? 602 - > SPEAKER_01: I love conceptualizing fixed income in 603 - > this space as a balance of risk, a potential response to that 604 - > risk, and opportunity to improve, you know, both the 605 - > risks, but also an opportunity for the credit itself to 606 - > improve. 607 - > So investing in projects this way mitigates climate impacts, 608 - > but takes advantage of building resilience. 609 - > One bond that we currently hold in both funds.

610 - > So even though the Amana Participation Fund isn't 611 - > directly labeled as a sustainable fund, we do hold 12 612 - > separate issuers of labeled debt. 613 - > Around 20% of the portfolio is in labeled sustainable secook. 614 - > And this is a name that we also hold in the Sustainable Global 615 - > Bond Fund. 616 - > And this is a national cooling company based out of the UAE.

617 - > So again, this company, the National Cooling Company, they 618 - > specialize in central cooling. 619 - > You know, we think about central heating and they provide 620 - > industrial and centralized cooling for homes and industrial 621 - > businesses. 622 - > And doing it this way, just the technology allows for a lot more 623 - > efficiency than if each person would have their own individual 624 - > air conditioner. 625 - > So if we look at their past 25 years of operations, they've 626 - > saved about enough emissions.

627 - > That's the equivalent of taking 1.6 million cars off the road. 628 - > It's a significant impact just on the basis of the business 629 - > that they're in. 630 - > But additionally, they are moving into other cities as well 631 - > to provide cooling in hot places.

632 - > You know, as we face further challenges with heat, this sort 633 - > of efficient heat technology is not only going to be good for 634 - > carbon efficiency or resource efficiency, but it also presents 635 - > a growing business opportunity for this sector, for this 636 - > business. 637 - > So this is a way where you can invest in an issuer that has an 638 - > impact and also a sector that we see as a potential growth 639 - > sector. 640 - > Now they do have green sequ, but we owned their debt even before 641 - > they were a green issuer.

642 - > So we don't only look at at labels. 643 - > We definitely look first and foremost at what sector this is 644 - > and the overall governance. 645 - > SPEAKER_02: Now this company is Tub Reed, right? 646 - > They're in the UAE.

647 - > But deconstruct this holding for me because what makes it work 648 - > both as an Islamic finance investment as well as a 649 - > sustainable investment? 650 - > SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell That just goes back to the actual 651 - > structure of sequuk. 652 - > So if we go back to why we need specific instruments for Muslim 653 - > investors, they're specifically structured because people of the 654 - > Muslim faith can't invest in the bond market because the faith 655 - > prohibits the collection of interest.

656 - > As also a tenant of that, it also requires a risk sharing 657 - > versus a risk transferring approach to finance. 658 - > So a sequuk from Tabride, they can have similar features to a 659 - > bond, such as a maturity date and it can generate income, but 660 - > that income has to be generated from revenue-producing assets 661 - > rather than being paid as interest. 662 - > So these assets can be a lot of things. 663 - > I mean, it can be a group of buildings with rental payments 664 - > going to sequ holders.

665 - > They could be seats on an airplane or airtime on cell 666 - > towers, or it could be revenues generated from a specific 667 - > property. 668 - > You know, something like Tevreed, they can generate 669 - > revenue from their assets, which then can be used to pay 670 - > sequolders. 671 - > So there is that asset component in sequ, that's important. 672 - > But in order to be appropriate for a Muslim investor, the sequ 673 - > also can't come with guarantees like collateral posting, and 674 - > that's part of that risk-sharing component.

675 - > And it also needs to come with a third-party religious opinion 676 - > that affirms the structure of sekuk is compliant with the 677 - > tenets of Islam. 678 - > So this is also just the nature and structure of sequuk. 679 - > Give this asset class strength. 680 - > You know, I think there's a some of your questions were, you 681 - > know, how do you blend the financial overlay with the 682 - > sustainability overlay and the sharia overlay?

683 - > From our perspective, these things all very much work 684 - > together, is that the Sharia overlay adds strength to these 685 - > credits. 686 - > The you know ESG and climate overlay adds just that focus on 687 - > governance and financial flexibility adds strength as 688 - > well. 689 - > SPEAKER_02: So you and Patrick just got back from a month-long 690 - > research trip across the Middle East, not just, but a few months 691 - > ago. 692 - > You had something like 50 meetings, and you were in Oman, 693 - > Kuwait, Saudi, Dubai, Abu Dhabi.

694 - > Tell me about that trip. 695 - > SPEAKER_01: It was an incredible trip. 696 - > We had meetings with 40 plus different issuers in Kuwait, 697 - > Oman, Saudi, Dubai, Abu Dhabi. 698 - > And it was my first time in the region.

699 - > Uh, my colleague Patrick has been going there for more than a 700 - > decade and has a deep understanding. 701 - > But what really I walked away from is just how strong a lot of 702 - > these issuers are in the Sekuk market, just the strength of 703 - > governance, the strength of corporate decision making, uh, 704 - > in the sheer amount of resources there that are being used for 705 - > investments in the area. 706 - > SPEAKER_02: Was there anything that you a takeaway or anything 707 - > you went away with that that's changed your allocation 708 - > thinking?

709 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 710 - > And I think that it is that that strength that we saw and that 711 - > deep understanding of these business models. 712 - > So, for example, there's been a lot of price changes in the 713 - > region. 714 - > So a lot of price volatility for some of these issuers that are 715 - > headquartered in the UAE.

716 - > Issuers like, you know, they have, you know, very strong, but 717 - > they also have had knock-on effects of this volatility. 718 - > We've found that by understanding just the strength 719 - > of these credits, that we were able to enter these bonds during 720 - > the period of volatility that we just had in a way that we feel 721 - > very comfortable with when the rest of the market was maybe 722 - > exiting these positions. 723 - > I think that long term that this is going to really benefit us.

724 - > SPEAKER_02: So when I met with Patrick five years ago, he 725 - > described investing in the emerging markets with three 726 - > words it's credit, there's context, and there's culture. 727 - > He said governance was the hardest part. 728 - > And after between 40, 50 meetings on the ground, does 729 - > that framework still hold for you? 730 - > SPEAKER_01: We both as a team are you know fully supportive of 731 - > that framework.

732 - > Governance is the hardest part, definitely. 733 - > But I think that's what's so important about on the ground 734 - > meetings and these personal relationships and conversations 735 - > with these issuers. 736 - > Uh, we definitely left some of these meetings, you know, very 737 - > comfortable, but there were others in certain sectors that 738 - > we walked away very uncomfortable. 739 - > That conversation and that deep knowledge, not only you know, in 740 - > these markets, you can only learn so much from looking at a 741 - > balance sheet or looking at big data sets.

742 - > You know, there's a huge benefit to diving into the story, the 743 - > trajectory, the humans that actually run these companies. 744 - > SPEAKER_02: Let's talk uh a minute about Sukuk. 745 - > You've mentioned it a lot. 746 - > And I want to come at this from a specific angle because when I 747 - > spoke with Patrick back in episode 16, he said roughly half 748 - > of the investors in Saturna's halal funds are not actually 749 - > Muslim.

750 - > They got nothing to do with the faith. 751 - > And that was the number he gave me five years ago. 752 - > Is that still an accurate number? 753 - > SPEAKER_01: Yes, that definitely is.

754 - > There's been a lot of visibility for Sekuk as a as an asset class 755 - > that would have a wider use or a wider audience than just Muslim 756 - > investors. 757 - > SPEAKER_02: And what exactly is pulling the non-faith-based 758 - > investors into the asset class? 759 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, Sukuk are a it's a really unique market, and 760 - > it offers some unique correlation benefits relative to 761 - > other fixed income assets to help reduce portfolio 762 - > volatility, improve risk-adjusted returns.

763 - > So, some comparative, it's less correlated to the SP 500 than 764 - > the US aggregate, if you're looking over the past five 765 - > years. 766 - > So it offers some additional correlation benefits relative to 767 - > traditional bonds. 768 - > And despite issuers located in the GCC, Sucook are actually 769 - > negatively correlated to oil. 770 - > SPEAKER_02: How's that?

771 - > SPEAKER_01: It's negatively correlated to oil because most 772 - > of Secook returns are driven by the movement of the US yield 773 - > curve and US price bond prices, because the currency in that 774 - > region, especially in the GCC, they're pegged to the US dollar. 775 - > But Sukuk, I think it's the asset component of Sequo as well 776 - > that offer that stability, that volatility benefit, which is the 777 - > second part of what makes this asset class attractive.

778 - > So Sukuk have shown significantly less volatility 779 - > than both emerging market bonds and US treasuries. 780 - > So if you invested in a Sukuk, for example, exemplified by the 781 - > FTSE Secook Index, there's a 37% reduction in volatility over the 782 - > past five years relative to US treasuries. 783 - > And they're about 50% less volatile than the US aggregate 784 - > over that same time period. 785 - > And a lot of this, too, comes from the fact that most of the 786 - > Secook market comes from very highly rated issuers.

787 - > So these are very strong. 788 - > For example, Saudi Arabia rated AA3 and AA plus by the other 789 - > agencies. 790 - > Abu Dhabi is uh straight AA. 791 - > And these are very strong credits with a lot of sovereign 792 - > resources and very low debt and low relative to a lot of the 793 - > rest of the world.

794 - > So that combination of low correlation, low volatility, and 795 - > highly rated issuers has made this asset class attractive to 796 - > not just Muslim investors, but other fixed income investors 797 - > looking for that diversification benefit. 798 - > I will also say that right now, this asset class is kind of 799 - > coming into a major test of all of these tenants, right? 800 - > Because you have a conflict going on, you know, a war going 801 - > on in this region.

802 - > But the thesis is definitely holding. 803 - > We had some volatility in the first quarter, but then we've 804 - > had a lot of improvements since then, a lot of recovery. 805 - > SPEAKER_02: What happens when you layer green bond 806 - > requirements on top of Sharia compliance? 807 - > What does that dual screen look like in practice?

808 - > SPEAKER_01: The green bond, you know, the requirements, it's an 809 - > evaluative process that we have when we look at dedicated use of 810 - > proceeds. 811 - > So our tenants of sustainability, climate risk, 812 - > governance are, you know, they're they're first and 813 - > foremost, those are going to go into any investment decision 814 - > that we make. 815 - > I would say in the Secook market, about the 170 to 200 816 - > individual issuers that we would have access to.

817 - > I mean, we narrow down that to probably less about 100 that we 818 - > would feel comfortable investing in, given liquidity, credit 819 - > rating, governance, et cetera. 820 - > And the Secook sustainability component is definitely growing. 821 - > We've had more issuers every single year. 822 - > A lot of these issuers that we hold in the fund are ones that 823 - > we know well who have ended up going into the sustainable or 824 - > green or social bond market.

825 - > So we were investors in them even before they came out with 826 - > this label debt. 827 - > But it is a very exciting thing to see in this market. 828 - > I think like any new In a market, like it's going to be a 829 - > time of transition. 830 - > There's going to be issuers getting used to these sort of 831 - > disclosure requirements, but I think there's an excellent place 832 - > and a lot of interest in that area.

833 - > One thing I took away from is that in every investor meeting, 834 - > ESG and climate risk was first and foremost and very focused on 835 - > in all of these meetings. 836 - > These issuers know that climate resilience is something that 837 - > they need to think about and invest in and thinking about the 838 - > future and their company risk. 839 - > So these projects seem they're growing in urgency. 840 - > I think that that's another thing that surprised me about 841 - > that trip was a takeaway just how much these issuers are 842 - > thinking about sustainability issues.

843 - > SPEAKER_02: These GCC investment grade sovereigns, and that 844 - > stands for Gulf Cooperation Council for people who don't 845 - > work a lot in the Middle East. 846 - > They've been, at least until this conflict started, they've 847 - > been trading tighter than U.S. 848 - > investment grade in some quarters.

849 - > Is the financial argument for owning Sakouk now stronger than 850 - > the values argument? 851 - > When a conventional pension fund buys into your fund, what are 852 - > they actually buying? 853 - > SPEAKER_01: They're buying our process. 854 - > For us, you know, the the two components that you mentioned, 855 - > the the sustainability or the yield pickup versus the argument 856 - > for holding it.

857 - > First and foremost, you know, as part of our investment process, 858 - > we have both a top-down, bottom-up approach. 859 - > So first, we're looking at the macroeconomic landscape, we're 860 - > looking at rates, we are looking at trajectory, but then we also 861 - > very much have that security selection that's focused on 862 - > credit, governance, and also relative value. 863 - > In terms of the yield argument, it really depends on the issue 864 - > that you're looking at.

865 - > Some issues just have not been competitively priced. 866 - > They don't have a huge place in our portfolio. 867 - > But an issue where if we look at Saudi, typically you're going to 868 - > see 60 to 90 basis points of yield pickup relative to US 869 - > treasuries and similarly rated corporates in the US base. 870 - > So you'll get a bit of a yield pickup investing in Saudi 871 - > relative to an A-rated corporate, you know, based in 872 - > the USA.

873 - > SPEAKER_02: So walk me through your geographic allocation, GCC 874 - > overweight, Latin American exposure, no African sovereigns, 875 - > and Asia outside of the Gulf. 876 - > Where's the biggest gap between perceived risk and actual risk 877 - > right now? 878 - > And where is the market wrong? 879 - > SPEAKER_01: Just from a broad perspective, we do like focusing 880 - > on the emerging markets, especially since there's such a 881 - > huge gap in financing, uh climate financing in the 882 - > emerging markets.

883 - > One stat that I always like to cite is that even though the 884 - > emerging markets is expected to be 95% of the increase in 885 - > greenhouse gas emissions in the world, it accounts for only 14% 886 - > of climate finance. 887 - > So there's that huge gap in the markets. 888 - > But to fill that gap, we definitely leverage our 889 - > expertise. 890 - > You know, we have a really unique expertise in the GCC or 891 - > in the Middle East.

892 - > And so we will use that expertise to have a unique 893 - > perspective in U.S. 894 - > asset managers to be able to invest in this area where maybe 895 - > another asset manager who doesn't have boosts on the 896 - > ground, so to say, as often would be hesitant or find it 897 - > less accessible. 898 - > We also have 10 years of relationship in that area with 899 - > local broker dealers and are able to, you know, to support 900 - > the liquidity of these issues as well.

901 - > So I think that would go to a lot of that Middle East. 902 - > In terms of Africa, you know, we also acknowledge where we can 903 - > focus our resources and expertise. 904 - > I really like some impact-directed exposure in 905 - > Africa in the Sustainable Bond Fund. 906 - > And we do that through the African Development Bank.

907 - > Every year for the Sustainable Fund, we produce a giant 908 - > sustainability report where we do all of our reporting and 909 - > analysis through the framework of the SDGs on the sustainable 910 - > side. 911 - > And then we go through case studies. 912 - > One of the recent case studies we focused was in Africa for, 913 - > you know, through the African Development Bank on clean water 914 - > projects that they were doing in Morocco. 915 - > So thankfully we do have some exposure, but not a huge 916 - > exposure.

917 - > We tend to have a significant underweight to the US in both of 918 - > our funds. 919 - > In the sustainable bond fund, we tend to keep our users exposure. 920 - > We really focused on US municipal infrastructure and 921 - > housing. 922 - > My start in Muni is I'm pretty passionate about a lot of the 923 - > projects in the Muni bond market.

924 - > But you had mentioned or you had asked, you know, what do I think 925 - > some of the biggest risks are or the biggest risks the markets 926 - > are missing? 927 - > And some of those risks I think are just mispricing physical 928 - > climate risk. 929 - > I don't think that the markets are really envisioning the full 930 - > extent of where we could be going. 931 - > The municipal market in the US is a classic example or of that, 932 - > at least in the US.

933 - > So I'm very, very much, if we do go into the mini market, do that 934 - > risk overlay. 935 - > If you just look at the recent wildfires last year in Los 936 - > Angeles, you know, there was a municipal issue or impacted the 937 - > Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. 938 - > And they're a very strong issuer. 939 - > They're not going to default or anything, but bonds were trading 940 - > at very low yield, tight spreads before the fire.

941 - > The spreads widened out after the fire. 942 - > And even though the fires only impacted 1% of their customers, 943 - > that pricing and spread hasn't really recovered. 944 - > You know, it reflected a quite long-term repricing of the 945 - > market to these bonds. 946 - > And I think those sort of events are maybe what keep me up at 947 - > night.

948 - > SPEAKER_02: Tell me about green bonds, social bonds, 949 - > sustainability bonds, blue bonds, orange bonds. 950 - > There's lots of labels in the market. 951 - > When are those labels actually meaningful and when are they 952 - > just marketing? 953 - > SPEAKER_01: That is the million-dollar question.

954 - > We spend a lot of time evaluating credibility. 955 - > And I think the label only goes as far as the underlying 956 - > credibility and governance of the issuer. 957 - > If you can have the best structured green bond in the 958 - > world with the third-party opinion, great use of proceeds, 959 - > a committee that evaluates use of money. 960 - > But if the issue itself has poor governance, that's a hard line 961 - > for us.

962 - > So we don't take the labels at all at face value. 963 - > But for us, we really do rely on our own internal evaluation. 964 - > So we have four components of this analysis. 965 - > We're looking at use of proceeds.

966 - > So we evaluate, you know, what actually the money is going to, 967 - > stipulated in the bond documents, and also the process 968 - > of allocating funds and potential project impact. 969 - > So who's actually making the decisions for bond allocations 970 - > and is it new issuance or funding? 971 - > Obviously, we're going to prefer new issuance for continuing 972 - > funding projects. 973 - > But also in terms of we're also looking at allocation tracking 974 - > of bond proceeds.

975 - > And there is a wide variety of wide range of quality of 976 - > continuing disclosure on projects. 977 - > And so we we like to see good continuing disclosure while also 978 - > recognizing that this entire space is a work in process. 979 - > So that wouldn't be a definite no for us, but definitely 980 - > something that, among other information, would give us 981 - > pause. 982 - > And also the issue where quality and commitment, just general 983 - > governance.

984 - > Nothing is going to be green without that good governance, 985 - > without that underlying strategic corporate or sovereign 986 - > or even sub-sovereign commitment to the cause. 987 - > We definitely have seen bonds that are issued for either 988 - > marketing purposes or to get a you know a bit better yield, but 989 - > the issuer itself would not be something that we could that we 990 - > could invest in. 991 - > SPEAKER_02: I'm absolutely shocked to hear that. 992 - > So there was a Columbia law review study in 2024 that found 993 - > about 10% of US corporate green bonds have no post-issuance 994 - > reporting at all.

995 - > And about a third have no third-party attestation. 996 - > Pre-issuance opinions are nearly universal. 997 - > The actual gap is after the money's been spent. 998 - > So how does your team verify what an issuer actually did with 999 - > the proceeds?

1000 - > And have you ever exited a position because the reporting 1001 - > was just inadequate? 1002 - > SPEAKER_01: I will say that we do not have a US focus for green 1003 - > bonds. 1004 - > I think we only have two positions in U.S.

1005 - > use of proceeds bonds, both of which have good reporting. 1006 - > So the U.S. 1007 - > is not by any means the leader in the world for this type of 1008 - > issuance.

1009 - > As I recall, their issuance in green bonds, even before the 1010 - > political changes in this country have been very low. 1011 - > I think only 3% of global total. 1012 - > So this is just not an area in which we are focused for a 1013 - > reason. 1014 - > I would say that is um, and if we do go into a green issuance, 1015 - > it is not in the corporate space in the US.

1016 - > I'm very much focused in the municipal space. 1017 - > Uh specifically, we've enjoyed adding municipal sustainable 1018 - > housing bonds. 1019 - > Yeah, it's very definite what this money is going to, 1020 - > affordable housing projects. 1021 - > And the way that I track this is sometimes I'm even going through 1022 - > minutes of community meetings or town hall or you know, city 1023 - > council meetings where they're talking about the use of 1024 - > proceeds and getting specific addresses for these affordable 1025 - > housing projects and tracking, okay, has this been built?

1026 - > Yes, you know, how many units is this? 1027 - > Is it dedicated a portion of the housing dedicated to very 1028 - > low-income people or below medium income people to further 1029 - > that affordable housing goal? 1030 - > And I think in the municipal space, there's a lot more room 1031 - > to check the credibility and the use of proceeds than the 1032 - > corporate space. 1033 - > And that's really where we're focused.

1034 - > SPEAKER_02: You use orbital data, geolocation, and satellite 1035 - > imagery to evaluate indirect supply chain exposure. 1036 - > Um, Barry Calabot runs continuous satellite monitoring 1037 - > of its entire Kacoa supply chain across West Africa and Southeast 1038 - > Asia. 1039 - > The EU deforestation regulation requires plot-level geolocation 1040 - > evidence starting this December in 2026. 1041 - > Is this all data type of verification going to replace 1042 - > second-party opinion models, or is it just another layer of 1043 - > administration here?

1044 - > SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's going to replace second party 1045 - > opinions. 1046 - > I think they serve two different purposes. 1047 - > I think the second party opinions can be structural in 1048 - > nature, where you're looking at actually how maybe bond proceeds 1049 - > are used, how you know what sort of projects money can be used 1050 - > for. 1051 - > This type of technology with tracking the indirect supply 1052 - > chain, I think serves a different purpose.

1053 - > It's going to be to make better supplier decisions, to better 1054 - > understand high-impact sectors such as cocoa or palm oil or 1055 - > coffee. 1056 - > And I think that ultimately, for very, very calibo, this is going 1057 - > to be good for overall business operations. 1058 - > This is a company that, you know, when I came in to the 1059 - > sustainable investing world fully in 2018, I had a lot of 1060 - > preconceptions about these sort of investments and issuers in 1061 - > tough sectors, you know, thinking that maybe it would be 1062 - > a blanket ban.

1063 - > However, I think there's a lot of room here where if you are in 1064 - > a high impact sector and you are a huge player like Barry, that 1065 - > even though I fully acknowledge that their operations are not 1066 - > perfect and that there are just structural elements that are 1067 - > challenging in a supply chain like this, like child labor, 1068 - > deforestation, forced labor, things that we should be very 1069 - > concerned about. 1070 - > They do have an opportunity in their governance and in this 1071 - > technology to make positive impact in this world.

1072 - > They did find 30,000 cases of child labor in their supply 1073 - > chain and mitigated them last year. 1074 - > It's crushing to think about child labor in the supply chain, 1075 - > but also I think in terms of the realist in sustainable 1076 - > investing, that we have to take small steps forward and take 1077 - > those steps forward, especially in challenging areas. 1078 - > SPEAKER_02: Amazon, Alphabet, Meta, Microsoft, Oracle all 1079 - > issued roughly$121 billion of bonds in 2025 versus an annual 1080 - > average of something like$28 billion from 2020 to 2024.

1081 - > So that's not a trend. 1082 - > That's a structural shift. 1083 - > None of the big five appear in your top holdings. 1084 - > Why not?

1085 - > SPEAKER_01: No, they won't. 1086 - > I think that this is really the beauty and importance of having 1087 - > a global bond portfolio, a global focus, is that we have 1088 - > almost the entire world to choose from for the most 1089 - > exciting sustainability stories and the most exciting credits 1090 - > that we can find. 1091 - > And also, as part of that, there is a tactical relative value 1092 - > framework that we're also investing in for the ultimate 1093 - > benefit of our clients.

1094 - > And if you're looking at very large US corporate holdings that 1095 - > have, there's a very big AI climate impact discussion. 1096 - > So if you're looking at something that could be 1097 - > controversial like that, you're also looking at bonds with 1098 - > yields that are not competitive to what we could find in the 1099 - > rest of the world. 1100 - > And also, you know, we could better use our capital to focus 1101 - > in safe, strong credits in the emerging markets.

1102 - > So we'll get a higher yield, better impact, more favorable 1103 - > tactical allocation. 1104 - > It's just these hyperscaler uh debt issuances, you know, aren't 1105 - > something that we're currently looking at. 1106 - > SPEAKER_02: You said that bonds are exciting because they 1107 - > finance the real world, right? 1108 - > And AI infrastructure is very much a part of the real world.

1109 - > Under what conditions could you see yourself owning a Microsoft 1110 - > or Alphabet Green bond, even when the issuers AI CapEx is 1111 - > massively increasing electricity demand? 1112 - > SPEAKER_01: I think if structurally how data centers 1113 - > are being built uh changed, for example, if you had real 1114 - > community input in where the data center was going, if you 1115 - > had proper energy production to support it that was based in 1116 - > renewables and wasn't going to maybe raise prices for members 1117 - > of the community.

1118 - > If you had community involvement and you know, zoning 1119 - > regulations, you know, proper governance, then perhaps. 1120 - > SPEAKER_02: Is there maybe a version of this where the better 1121 - > play for a sustainable bond manager isn't the hyperscalar 1122 - > bond itself and maybe the ecosystem around it? 1123 - > Utilities upgrading the grid, the transmission build out, the 1124 - > pooling infrastructure, municipal resilience bonds near 1125 - > data center clusters.

1126 - > SPEAKER_01: That is definitely where my attention lay uh is 1127 - > that municipal resilience, the infrastructure development, 1128 - > utility play. 1129 - > You know, we have some just some exciting municipal 1130 - > community-based resilience. 1131 - > You have Rhode Island's uh recent green bonds that they 1132 - > issued that's going, you know, there's a specific community 1133 - > resilience fund that's going to finance coastal resilience and 1134 - > um climate resilience in the state.

1135 - > You know, things like that, I think, are really exciting and 1136 - > innovative. 1137 - > And that's where the municipal bond market shines because it 1138 - > has been one of the innovators in the bond market. 1139 - > I mean, there's no other bond market like it in the world. 1140 - > And what the Muni market does really well is de-risk 1141 - > transactions, enable small communities to access capital.

1142 - > So where our attention more is for that, that municipal 1143 - > resilience play. 1144 - > And our attention right now is not on hyperscaler debt. 1145 - > SPEAKER_02: To steel man things out, I'm sure someone listening 1146 - > right now is thinking, this all sounds great, but she holds 1147 - > Mazdar, which is backed by Abu Dhabi oil money and Brazilian 1148 - > corn ethanol, and she invests in petrostate-backed sovereign 1149 - > secook. 1150 - > How is all this sustainable?

1151 - > How would you respond to someone thinking that? 1152 - > And where is the line that you won't cross? 1153 - > SPEAKER_01: I think that is a really important question to 1154 - > answer because I think this is where nuance comes in, right? 1155 - > So if you have an issuer, for example, like Madstar, uh, this 1156 - > is a hundred percent renewable energy play.

1157 - > It's backed by the Sovereign Wealth Fund of Abu Dhabi. 1158 - > So their credit rating is not just one for the sovereign. 1159 - > They're seen generally as a governmental entity. 1160 - > So I think the first thing to acknowledge is yes, that this is 1161 - > an economy in transition.

1162 - > They are absolutely not perfect. 1163 - > There's a lot of progress to be made. 1164 - > But we also like to look at trajectory and investment. 1165 - > I mean, if we're looking at the UAE, right?

1166 - > Back in 2009, 85% of the economy was oil exports. 1167 - > Now that number is around 30% of GDP. 1168 - > But this is also Abu Dhabi, they committed 20 billion for 1169 - > renewable energy programs through Mazdar. 1170 - > And Mazdar has renewable energy projects in 45 countries, 250 1171 - > projects.

1172 - > They uh have their green bonds directed pretty much exclusively 1173 - > to projects largely in the global south. 1174 - > So I think that this is where that balance comes in. 1175 - > Yes, this is a you know a petrostate. 1176 - > There is, you know, they do have investments in in benefit from 1177 - > from oil production, exports, etc.

1178 - > You also have a state that's looking to diversify. 1179 - > You have active investments in renewable energy. 1180 - > So in this, I think that the progress and the potential 1181 - > impact outweighs perfection. 1182 - > And if we keep waiting for perfection, or if we 1183 - > consistently evaluate sustainability from a Western or 1184 - > a European lens, that we're going to miss a lot of that, you 1185 - > know, what we talked about culture and context, that we 1186 - > have to measure this incremental change in the context in which 1187 - > it's happening.

1188 - > SPEAKER_02: Where is the line, though, that you won't cross 1189 - > governance. 1190 - > SPEAKER_01: If you know, there are certain states in which we 1191 - > will not invest because of the human rights conditions or the 1192 - > state uh rule of law. 1193 - > You know, if we don't think that the state is a decent actor, or 1194 - > if there's not good governance there, we will not invest. 1195 - > Um, from a corporate level, it's the same.

1196 - > If we do, you know, it's about looking at intent and looking at 1197 - > the full story. 1198 - > You know, one thing that we haven't talked about yet is 1199 - > that, you know, from on the sustainable fund is that we have 1200 - > a huge amount of impact reporting, data collection, and 1201 - > a focus on transparency. 1202 - > One thing that we do is we manually collect data from every 1203 - > single issuance in that fund. 1204 - > We go through CSR reports and we look how each holding is 1205 - > contributing to each one of the UN SDGs directly, how they're 1206 - > reporting data, if it's good reporting, if it's substantive, 1207 - > or maybe it's just for marketing, and we try to paint a 1208 - > holistic picture of each issuer and that kind of deep due 1209 - > diligence in collecting all that data.

1210 - > And here's where the archaeology comes in it's that deep dive 1211 - > collecting all of this data, piecing together a story. 1212 - > And if those pieces don't fit an issuer that is genuinely at the 1213 - > core strategy, trying to incorporate climate risk or move 1214 - > towards. 1215 - > Climate transition, then it's not going to be a good fit for 1216 - > the portfolio. 1217 - > And that is absolutely the line.

1218 - > SPEAKER_02: The US regulatory landscape is fragmented post-the 1219 - > Supreme Court ruling overturning the Chevron deference. 1220 - > You've referred to it as buyer-beware environment. 1221 - > For someone who does deep hands-on research that you do, 1222 - > is this type of regulatory chaos an advantage or is it more of a 1223 - > threat? 1224 - > SPEAKER_01: To me, I see it more as a threat.

1225 - > I think markets only benefit from data transparency if we 1226 - > look at the regulations for accurate audited financial 1227 - > disclosure. 1228 - > That has done nothing but strengthened the overall market. 1229 - > I think with regulatory upheaval, lack of data, and just 1230 - > the fact that we have to manually go through every CSR 1231 - > report because companies are having to or choose to change 1232 - > the names of what they're reporting away from politically 1233 - > dangerous terms to something that's more anodyne.

1234 - > It makes it difficult for the market to price and risk. 1235 - > It makes it difficult for the market to evaluate quality of 1236 - > issuers. 1237 - > So I'd say yes, it's a threat. 1238 - > SPEAKER_02: The Empowering Consumers Directive kicks in 1239 - > September this year.

1240 - > UK SDR labels are are phasing in now. 1241 - > Meanwhile, the US has pulled back. 1242 - > You run a U.S.

1243 - > domicile fund with global holdings. 1244 - > How do you navigate sitting in the middle of this divergence? 1245 - > SPEAKER_01: I think we rely on our process. 1246 - > If we think about something like the Article IX funds, the 1247 - > criteria for sustainability of those dark green funds is really 1248 - > high.

1249 - > And from our perspective, that can limit some of those 1250 - > turnaround stories where an issuer has to be so strong 1251 - > already that it's reflected in certain metrics where we think 1252 - > that it's much more productive from a value creation point of 1253 - > view to identify the change in trajectory first and benefit 1254 - > from that upside. 1255 - > So we do sit in the middle. 1256 - > However, I think we have a very strong due diligence process. 1257 - > And some of that, that flexibility to go into those 1258 - > names is a benefit.

1259 - > And so we're really excited when we can find really innovative 1260 - > financial structures that allow us to invest in direct impact 1261 - > bonds. 1262 - > One of the most innovative issuers that we have seen is the 1263 - > Impact Investment Exchange. 1264 - > They're the leaders on orange bonds or gender lens bonds. 1265 - > And this is a specific issue that we purchased at New Issue.

1266 - > It was a women's livelihood bond number four, and saw all the way 1267 - > through to its maturity last year. 1268 - > So kind of a full project scope. 1269 - > And what's really innovative about this is that the bond 1270 - > proceeds finance uh direct lending to microfinance 1271 - > organizations and women-owned enterprises in Southeast Asia, 1272 - > Cambodia, Vietnam, India, et cetera. 1273 - > And they very, very proactively track use of proceeds as well.

1274 - > So their impact reporting is very credible. 1275 - > But part of these loans were actually to women for 1276 - > agricultural loans. 1277 - > Like some of these microfinance organizations were lending to 1278 - > women for this very purpose. 1279 - > And the bonds are structured.

1280 - > So, you know, there's a partial credit guarantee from a 1281 - > sovereign government. 1282 - > There's an equity position that takes first losses. 1283 - > So for us, you know, we need more safety than other 1284 - > investors. 1285 - > So this sort of blended structure allows us to 1286 - > participate as a bondholder, actually have direct impact to 1287 - > address a risk and also uh build resilience in these areas, uh, 1288 - > but also hold it in a 40 act fund.

1289 - > So someone who loves bonds and loves the bond market, you you 1290 - > definitely do have favorite bonds. 1291 - > And this is one of mine. 1292 - > SPEAKER_02: You referred to earlier, you cited women's 1293 - > livelihood bond that impacted approximately 50,000 women and 1294 - > produced a social return of about$4.50 per dollar invested.

1295 - > How do you measure that impact? 1296 - > SPEAKER_01: I think the first and foremost thing to do is to 1297 - > evaluate the issuer themselves and the issuer's process for 1298 - > collecting that impact data. 1299 - > So we actually traveled to Singapore to meet with the 1300 - > Impact Investment Exchange, get an in-person review of their 1301 - > process and an in-depth overview of how they're collecting this 1302 - > data. 1303 - > We are comfortable with how they were collecting this data.

1304 - > They have an extensive due diligence program. 1305 - > So specifically in the Women's Livelihood Bond 4 that I 1306 - > mentioned, this was uh it was used to lend to 11 organizations 1307 - > in Cambodia, India, Indonesia, and the Philippines. 1308 - > So impact data is verified by a combination of virtual, in-depth 1309 - > interviews that they do and also surveys sent to, I think it was 1310 - > 500 randomly selected women. 1311 - > So it's not a in terms of the impact measurement.

1312 - > I think that they're at the the cutting edge of this type of 1313 - > measurement, but we don't expect it to be perfect either. 1314 - > SPEAKER_02: Where do you see the greatest opportunities in 1315 - > sustainable and Islamic fixed income, let's say over the next 1316 - > 12 to 24 months? 1317 - > And what risk is the market most clearly mispricing right now? 1318 - > SPEAKER_01: I think some of the best opportunities that we've 1319 - > seen have been some of those price corrections on strong 1320 - > issuers in the Middle East that we selectively entered into.

1321 - > Uh, in terms of the trajectory as a market on the whole, yeah, 1322 - > I'm really excited to see the new structures that come out 1323 - > that allow institutional 40 act fund managers to be more 1324 - > directly involved or to be able to hold more impact-related 1325 - > bonds like that women's livelihood bonds. 1326 - > Uh also, I know people on your program have previously talked 1327 - > about outcome bonds issued by the World Bank. 1328 - > Structures like that, I think, are really exciting in something 1329 - > we'd like to see grow.

1330 - > Just in the Sekuk space, the amount of new dedicated use of 1331 - > proceeds, secook, are really exciting. 1332 - > And last year, I believe it was in Indonesia, there was the very 1333 - > first genderlands orange sequuk that were issued. 1334 - > I think these are all really exciting developments from a 1335 - > sovereign perspective. 1336 - > Sovereigns with high physical risk are at the moment 18% more 1337 - > likely to default on their bonds.

1338 - > So this is definitely something that we think about a lot. 1339 - > And so my thought is that what we want to avoid is uh being 1340 - > subject to a sudden market repricing of risk that we didn't 1341 - > see coming. 1342 - > And we do our best efforts to make sure that doesn't happen. 1343 - > SPEAKER_02: Alex Edmonds at the London Business School has 1344 - > proposed killing the term ESG and replacing it with rational 1345 - > sustainability, with sustainability as the goal, 1346 - > evidence, and trade-offs as the method.

1347 - > What's your reaction to that? 1348 - > SPEAKER_01: Our fund has been called the sustainable bond 1349 - > fund. 1350 - > We like the term sustainability. 1351 - > I think in this space, we have been through many terms, you 1352 - > know, a lot of different terms through the years.

1353 - > SRI, ESG, sustainability. 1354 - > For us, it's really at the heart of what is being analyzed, the 1355 - > heart of uh looking at climate risk, looking at use of 1356 - > proceeds, et cetera. 1357 - > Um, I think he had mentioned that you know he likes the term 1358 - > intangible or intangible assets or intangible, evaluating the 1359 - > intangibles. 1360 - > I think in the bond market, we view it differently is that it 1361 - > we think it is very tangible.

1362 - > There's nothing more tangible to a community than a wildfire that 1363 - > is going through. 1364 - > There's nothing more tangible than an actual project built 1365 - > with a bond being subject to physical climate risk. 1366 - > And I think that if we embrace the tangibility of bonds and the 1367 - > tangibility of this risks, is that I think that that's what's 1368 - > going to drive us forward. 1369 - > SPEAKER_02: You said something that I wrote down.

1370 - > The winds of politics may change, but the climate isn't 1371 - > going to stop changing. 1372 - > You know, has the anti-ESG backlash in the US actually 1373 - > changed the work that you do, or has it just changed the words 1374 - > you use to describe it? 1375 - > SPEAKER_01: It has not changed the work that we do. 1376 - > In fact, I think it's really highlighted the work that we do 1377 - > because it becomes all the more valuable, especially to our 1378 - > clients are more interested in our process.

1379 - > But even the way it's impacted the, you know, for just taking 1380 - > one thing, the US green bond issuance, right? 1381 - > So globally, green bond issuance last year was was up. 1382 - > Even in the US, total issuance by volume for green bonds was 1383 - > up. 1384 - > Even through all of the political backlash, uh, you did 1385 - > have fewer issues or fewer unique issuers.

1386 - > And specifically in the utility sector, you saw a lot of 1387 - > utilities that did issue green bonds in the past not really 1388 - > labeling their debt. 1389 - > But then on the other side, investment in renewable energy 1390 - > technology in the US last year went up more than 3%. 1391 - > So it's not like these issuers are changing their plans. 1392 - > They may be changing their labels, but yeah, for us, it's 1393 - > not changing our process.

1394 - > SPEAKER_02: You left the Middle East five days before war 1395 - > started. 1396 - > What went through your mind when you saw the news? 1397 - > SPEAKER_01: I was horrified. 1398 - > I had just had this deep connection with this community 1399 - > and the people there.

1400 - > And when war starts, it can be very easy for us in the West to 1401 - > dismiss the reality of war. 1402 - > But having that personal connection to this place, it 1403 - > makes a conflict real. 1404 - > SPEAKER_02: You opened Excel for the first time on your first day 1405 - > working in finance. 1406 - > What would the aspiring archaeologist in that Egyptian 1407 - > tomb think of you now?

1408 - > SPEAKER_01: I think I would be really proud of me. 1409 - > I did not see this vision of my future, but I think that, you 1410 - > know, with any sort of adventure, sort of the wonder of 1411 - > the unexpected is a beautiful thing. 1412 - > I have my dream job. 1413 - > I wouldn't want to be anywhere else or do anything else, and 1414 - > that can be the human ideal.

1415 - > SPEAKER_02: You say you love bonds. 1416 - > Why should anyone else? 1417 - > SPEAKER_01: I love bonds because of how beautifully tangible they 1418 - > are. 1419 - > Uh, they impact our daily life from the roads we drive to the 1420 - > hospitals we go to or even the universities that we attend.

1421 - > It's you know larger than the U.S. 1422 - > equity market and really constructs our society. 1423 - > Most of our infrastructure is financed with debt.

1424 - > And bonds are uniquely able to direct proceeds directly to 1425 - > important projects that build climate resilience. 1426 - > SPEAKER_02: Uh merging markets account for 95% of the increase 1427 - > in global greenhouse gas emissions, but they only account 1428 - > for 14% of global climate finance. 1429 - > Is the bond market gonna close that gap or is that wishful 1430 - > thinking? 1431 - > SPEAKER_01: I think we are going to need every single tool that 1432 - > we have in finance to close that gap.

1433 - > It's going to be a combination of equity investors, blended 1434 - > finance, venture capital, the bond market, direct investment. 1435 - > We need all of the tools. 1436 - > I think the bond market is an important aspect of closing that 1437 - > gap, but we're absolutely going to all have to work together. 1438 - > SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, I've got a few last rapid fire questions 1439 - > to wrap up our talk here.

1440 - > So just give me whatever comes to your mind, or if nothing 1441 - > does, feel free to take a pass. 1442 - > If you had to name the single most important challenge in the 1443 - > sustainable and Islamic fixed income space at this time, what 1444 - > would it be and why? 1445 - > SPEAKER_01: Flexibility of thought. 1446 - > The challenge is not holding too tight to historical patterns or 1447 - > original assumptions.

1448 - > And this can be really detrimental when new science is 1449 - > coming all the time that are going to challenge our 1450 - > assumptions or challenge the chiming of climate change. 1451 - > We finance people, we love to look at historical patterns, but 1452 - > going forward, this is going to take some imagination and 1453 - > creativity in order to evaluate the risks that are coming our 1454 - > way. 1455 - > SPEAKER_02: What do you know now about sustainable fixed income 1456 - > investing that you wish you knew when you first joined Saturday 1457 - > in 2018?

1458 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, I came from a very US-focused municipal bond 1459 - > world. 1460 - > I wish that I had known just how important culture and context 1461 - > are when framing sustainability, progress on gender equality is 1462 - > going to look a lot different in certain areas of the world. 1463 - > So measuring something like ideal board gender diversity is 1464 - > going to look different in Europe than it does in the 1465 - > Middle East. 1466 - > But that doesn't mean that there isn't progress or important 1467 - > steps forward.

1468 - > SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're an investor. 1469 - > You don't have to name names, but can you describe an example 1470 - > of a bond that you were convinced of at the time you 1471 - > invested that it ticked all your sustainability boxes, but in the 1472 - > end it didn't turn out? 1473 - > And what was the investing lesson you learned from that 1474 - > experience? 1475 - > SPEAKER_01: It was a sustainably linked bond that was issued in 1476 - > 2021.

1477 - > It was the very first of its kind in its industry. 1478 - > I thought it showed a lot of promise in a challenging 1479 - > industry. 1480 - > However, I learned is to take a deeper evaluation on these 1481 - > sustainably linked bonds. 1482 - > Their goals weren't very ambitious.

1483 - > They met them easily and exceeded them. 1484 - > It didn't seem like too much of a challenge. 1485 - > The actual bond didn't seem to have the impact that it was 1486 - > promised. 1487 - > The very much like just a conventional bond from this 1488 - > company.

1489 - > So what I learned from it was to be skeptical of these 1490 - > sustainably linked bond targets and to dig deeper, even if it's 1491 - > an exciting sector. 1492 - > SPEAKER_02: Okay, now the converse of that, can you 1493 - > describe a bond that you were skeptical of either at the time 1494 - > you invested, or maybe you ultimately passed on it? 1495 - > And in the end, it turned out way better than you thought, and 1496 - > you were pleased that you had invested, or if you had passed 1497 - > on it, maybe you wished you hadn't.

1498 - > And what was the investing lesson that you learned from 1499 - > that? 1500 - > SPEAKER_01: I think the best example is are those bonds in 1501 - > the challenged industries we talked about, like paper and 1502 - > pulp or chocolate. 1503 - > I came into the sustainable investing world with definite 1504 - > industry bias for those challenging industries. 1505 - > I mean, chocolate, you have structural risks, child labor, 1506 - > slave labor, deforestations, problem with tracking the 1507 - > indirect supply chain.

1508 - > However, some of those actors or some of the impacts that I've 1509 - > seen from improvement in governance in the large players, 1510 - > such as Barry Calabo, have made me question those original 1511 - > assumptions and see that you can have positive impacts and 1512 - > positive trajectories, even while there remains important 1513 - > challenges to address. 1514 - > SPEAKER_02: And if someone wants to get into sustainable and 1515 - > Islamic fixed income investing, how would you advise them to get 1516 - > into the business?

1517 - > You know, like what would be the best place for them to cut their 1518 - > teeth? 1519 - > SPEAKER_01: That is a great question. 1520 - > I would say educate yourself, read, start conversations, talk 1521 - > to as many people as you can. 1522 - > I would say tenacity is your greatest friend.

1523 - > And if I can do it coming from archaeology, I mean, it took me 1524 - > 50 interviews to land my first job. 1525 - > I had never opened Excel my first day of work after college. 1526 - > I didn't even know how bond works. 1527 - > So if I can get here, you can too with tenacity.

1528 - > SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, I've really enjoyed this. 1529 - > And you know, in my experience, it seems like equity managers 1530 - > get the headlines and are positioned as the gunslingers 1531 - > that everyone talks about. 1532 - > But far more capital flows through new bond issuances each 1533 - > year than equity. 1534 - > So you're right, the climate transition is going to be 1535 - > financed and by the debt markets.

1536 - > And it's people like you who are out there doing the forensic 1537 - > on-the-ground work across these markets from Bellingham, 1538 - > Washington, all the way to Oman. 1539 - > You're the unsung heroes building the bridge. 1540 - > So thanks for coming on. 1541 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

1542 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for coming on and taking the time to 1543 - > talk about all this with me today. 1544 - > It's been really insightful for me. 1545 - > SPEAKER_01: It was absolutely my pleasure. 1546 - > Thank you so much.

1547 - > SPEAKER_02: Now tell everyone about your website and your 1548 - > social media and where people can find out about all the good 1549 - > stuff you guys are doing at Saturna. 1550 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 1551 - > You can go to Saturna.com and find our full range of 1552 - > information.

1553 - > I would say start with the insights tab, then you'll get 1554 - > our sustainability reporting, all of our white papers, thought 1555 - > leadership. 1556 - > Uh, we write about how Sakuk work. 1557 - > Uh Patrick just published a uh a full primer on GCC Sakuk, which 1558 - > is a great resource to learn about the asset class. 1559 - > I would also point people towards our sustainability 1560 - > reports.

1561 - > If you want to really dive deep into how we frame our 1562 - > investments in terms of the sustainable development goals, 1563 - > and also if you want to learn about tangible case studies 1564 - > where our investments have made an impact or you know made a 1565 - > contribution towards climate resilience. 1566 - > SPEAKER_02: If someone wants to reach out to you, what's the 1567 - > best way for them to contact you? 1568 - > SPEAKER_01: Through LinkedIn or contact Saturna directly.

1569 - > Uh general, we have a contact tab on our website. 1570 - > Uh, people can feel free to reach through that channel and 1571 - > send us a message. 1572 - > SPEAKER_02: Perfect. 1573 - > Okay, everybody.

1574 - > So go to Saturna.com and we will have links in the show notes for 1575 - > everything that we're talking about. 1576 - > And uh also links galore at sri360.com.

1577 - > So okay, Elizabeth, thanks again for coming on. 1578 - > SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much for having me. 1579 - > It's been a pleasure. 1580 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

1581 - > All right. 1582 - > Goodbye, everybody. 1583 - > SPEAKER_00: You've been listening to SRI 360. 1584 - > If you enjoyed it, please hit the like button and subscribe to 1585 - > get future episodes.

1586 - > You can find an archive of all previous podcast interviews and 1587 - > more articles and information on SRI EST Impact Investing, 1588 - > sustainable investing, and socially responsible investing 1589 - > at our website, SRI360.com. 1590 - > If you'd like to read more lessons learned from world-class 1591 - > SRI investors, get a copy of Scott Arnell's book, Sustainable 1592 - > and Responsible Investing 360. 1593 - > It's a must-read for anyone wanting to know more about 1594 - > investing for positive social, environmental, and ethical 1595 - > impact.

1596 - > All with market financial returns. 1597 - > These are the stories and tactics of those leading the way 1598 - > as sustainable and responsible investing goes mainstream. 1599 - > Sustainable and responsible investing 360 is now available 1600 - > in hardcover, ebook, and audiobook format wherever books 1601 - > are sold.