The Problem With AI Marketing Is Not The Tech, It’s How We Talk About It with Stephen Christou

Stephen Christou: So I think increasingly SaaS is going to be seen as that sort of legacy player and AI is going to be coming in and it's on those SaaS companies to reinvent themselves with their positioning, taking their credibility and trust and bringing into the AI era.

Karen Lloyd: Welcome to the spotlight of marketing brought to you by Armstrong Lloyd, headhunters in the B2B marketing space. I'm your host, Karen Lloyd and in today's episode we're exploring attention that's defining how B2B companies win right now. And that's the gap between how quickly AI is advancing and actually how organizations are actually adopting it. So what do you do to position AI in a way that builds trust rather than confusion with your customers? Well, to answer that question today I am m joined by Steven Christieu. He's a B2B marketing leader with experience across companies such as HPE, TIBCO and Cahisti. But he has spent the last year building a repeatable demand engine inside an early stage AI company. So if you're building or marketing an AI product and you're trying to figure out how to drive that constant demand in a resource strained environment, this one is for you. Welcome Stephen.

Stephen Christou: Thanks Karen. Pleasure to be here.

Karen Lloyd: Well, let's dive in. So you've spent so many years running regional marketing in enterprise organizations and then you've moved to an early stage IO, uh, company. So what's motivated that move?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, so I wanted to test whether that structured regional marketing discipline I've developed in the enterprise environments, we actually still work inside that resource constrained startup. And the biggest difference for me I've noticed is the feedback cycle. So in startups you get the immediate feedback in days or weeks maximum where your positioning and demand engine actually work, whereas in that enterprise size it can be weeks, months or even by quarters.

Karen Lloyd: Uh, was there anything else that you learned from that change or was it mostly just the speed?

Stephen Christou: It's about experimenting at uh, scale really, and running lots of micro experiments, rather placing your bets on more enterprise machines which have much longer, uh, range of time to close.

Karen Lloyd: And in your first year you had a really impressive period, didn't you? And you helped establish a consistent flow of inbound sort of demo requests. And there was, you know, so what, what sort of key decisions turned that early marketing activity and how did you sort of manage to build it into repeatable demand engine?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, well, as you'll hear through the flow of, uh, this podcast, the turning point is getting very clear on the ICP in this particular example. So what the specific problems your Buyers and serve are actually trying to solve. And really once you align that positioning around how buyers actually search, evaluate and compare solutions in the modern AI landscape, then the demand can become much more consistent. So really we focused on the discipline, so we did things such as mapping questions buyers are actually asking before they speak to sales, creating clear content around those answers and then measuring which topics actually drive conversations and demo requests. So over time that actually created the repeatable engine. So when your position, your content and buyer intent are aligned, that demand becomes much more predictable.

Karen Lloyd: And how did you actually, um, how did you, how did you know the questions? How did you find out what those questions were?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, so there's lots of clues with one technology. Transcripts are great ones. So if sales are speaking to customers, you can obviously take those anonymized and learn some of the findings, some of the data that sits within your company, uh, running workshops across the company as well. So being in a startup, you can speak to founders in the same room. As well as sales and customer success, they can give you lots of useful signals. And using modern AI tools as well to kind of triangulate some of those key repeatable findings is also really, really helpful.

Karen Lloyd: So did you come in straight away and just know this is what you do or was there like a turning point or a change that made you need to go back to those ICPs?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, I think when you come in from a well structured, well funded environment to something small, uh, startup bootstrapped and resource constrained, you notice where a lot of the gaps are immediately. And it's about taking care of some of the fundamental areas first. And if you deal with some of those in parallel. So those might include refreshing the brand, refocusing on the icp, understanding what we talk about, and go to market. If you start to build and touch some of those in parallel, they start to compound very quickly and give you that sort of scale and repeatable, um, motion that I've described.

Karen Lloyd: Yeah. Though it can be overwhelming to do those three bits together. And so did you, did you try and do all three together or did you, how did you know which one?

Stephen Christou: Uh, points. And I mean to give you, give you an idea, operating in, uh, the AI space that we are, our offerings, sometimes we're changing on a weekly basis. So the scale of innovation that AI brings to companies and competition at this level, um, it can be very disorientating. So it's about, I would say using your icp, your core buyer as your North Star as your anchor and building around that. How do we serve Them, how do we talk about them, how do we go to market with them? What are one or two small pilots that we can run to actually serve them better should be your guiding light in those environments.

Karen Lloyd: And do you think, because obviously you're working for an AI business, but also AI is changing around us. So did you find, uh, that AI has changed the way your customers were discovering you?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, ah, absolutely. So one of the key levers that we found transformational in this particular role is SEO and AI SEO. So how your brand or product is discovered over large language models or LLMs. So if we think about traditional SEO that's focused heavily on keywords and rankings, AI discovery is more about that clarity and the authority. So if your content clearly explains the problem you solve and how you solve it, the AI systems or the LLM of choice you used surfaces it because it's actually genuinely helping the answers that buyers are typing in real language and actually serves for a better experience.

Karen Lloyd: Exactly. And we have done, we've done another podcast actually, if you want to dive into that subject in more detail, we've done another podcast on that previously, which we'll link in the show notes. Was your, was your product also helping the AI search or was this more that you were finding this about your customers?

Stephen Christou: So I inherited the marketing function. We had a very strong SEO leader, uh, a couple of years ago. And most of the inbound was based on traditional SEO that had tapered off over time. So it was about really taking that, uh, content that was written for search engines and structuring it more around understanding and how people search for it today in that kind of natural language. So to be clear, AI systems surface information, clearly explain a problem, a solution, and the context behind it. So when we reworked our, uh, content, that was one of the first key things. Once we straighten out the brand and straighten out the icp, we focus on making our content much clearer and more structured. So explaining the problems directly, outlining use cases, comparing approaches, and making the value of the product really easy to understand. So when your content is organized around clarity rather than those sort of traditional SEO optimization tricks, it really does perform much better for AI discovery and actually helping real buyers evaluate solutions.

Karen Lloyd: In today's world, once you'd sort of seen that, that practical execution of the algorithm and you'd seen that working, did that translate directly to demos booked or how did it work?

Stephen Christou: So without being too specific around KPIs, we had a large uptick, uh, in uh, weekly demos booked. So that's the key KPI that We're measured on in an early scale. It's too soon for anything like MQLs, SQLs and even pipeline influence to a certain extent in early KPI. So in this quick modern startup, those demos booked that qualified is really the key metric. And we saw a uh, regular consistent uptick of single to double digit demos booked per week, which was extremely encouraging. And we even managed to track one company which was a payments company. They came from AI SEO led, um, work that we'd done directly through to closed. And we had the opportunity during the process to say you found us through AI SEO, what did you type in, what was the prompt, what did you use? And actually share that back with us. And again that's extremely valuable to then wrap that back into that framework I discussed earlier and then run it through to refining how buyers are finding us brilliant.

Karen Lloyd: And so just to recap that, uh, mostly that you did this through re looking at your content and restructuring your content, would you say that's correct, that's what you did?

Stephen Christou: Uh, yes, if you want to say content is uh, some of the tactics, but really the foundation that underpins it all is deeply understanding your icp. You know, who your ideal customer Persona is, what the pain points are, why they buy from you, and does that thread through everything that you communicate to market from your digital shop window, your website, the content you're posting out, the blogs, the webinars, potentially the events or roundtables you run. Does all of that permeate in a consistent way? That's really the key element here.

Karen Lloyd: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So it's making sure that your content is structured, aligned with your icp, with everything you do. And uh, you're not just barking up a tree and going off and doing something random.

Stephen Christou: Absolutely. And if I can just add, um, one final point on the practical execution and rhythm, I really say that consistency matters more than volume. So people might undertake this as initial project and just put 5, 10, 20, 100 things out there, uh, and then sort of leave it for three, six months and actually doing less. But that's really targeted very consistently. Giving that practical rhythm to buy questions is where we see things moving. So blogs, FAQs, growing content sources outside your website are uh, really key areas for focus and what it says, if anybody's interested is peaked around how ready is their business for AI SEO, we can put a link, Karen, in the description to a couple of free tools that I've used over my time, uh, over the last year. There's no affiliation with them, but they're Simply things that I found useful and hopefully somebody else might find some value as well.

Karen Lloyd: Fantastic. That's really kind. Yeah, that's very useful indeed. I think what's really interesting is, is what you're saying is, is that you, you don't have to be inventing new content all the time, but it's just making sure what you have got is really clear and consistent.

Stephen Christou: Absolutely.

Karen Lloyd: Yeah. Where some people think they need to be on a content turning machine, don't they getting the same, you know, we need to be always con, you know, producing content and, and it's the volume of content which in the past has been what the algorithms are perhaps liked but it isn't maybe the same anymore.

Stephen Christou: Right. And you really find that if you're consistent around your message but taking different angles from the same message, that's what really compounds instead of just inventing that. I think this will be interesting this week to write about some out ideas. You only need three to five core concepts and ideas around the pain points and taking different viewpoints on those gives you almost endless ideas um, to, to write about. I, I'd also just drop in from practical point of view things like listicle articles are very helpful. So listicle is like your top 5x or your top 10 this or your top tips etc. Listicle content is also very, very helpful and that can give you lots of ideas from competitors products, positioning, uh, and more as well. Those are a good backbone beat rate of content that helps with AI SEO.

Karen Lloyd: So we've spoken about seeing the widening gap and how quickly AI capabilities are advancing and how organizations actually adopt new technology. So what do you mean by that? And what does it matter for companies who are actually building the AI products now, not just using them?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, so over the last year I've definitely developed some AI hypothesis around this area. And one thing that I've noticed firsthand while working in this AI native SaaS companies, that technology is advancing incredibly quickly. But organizations and buyers in particular absorb change far far more gradually. We don't like change generally as humans. Now if we look to um, a trusted source, Gartner, they've highlighted this and they've actually coined the phrase what's called the AI adoption gap. So they talk about around 75% of executives say AI is strategically critical. But yet fewer than 25% of organizations have actually moved from pilots to production. And if I may add, that gives me just a little bit more confidence that Karen, we've still got a bit longer to be replaced by AI while the adoption is at uh, that ratio. So really the challenge for companies building AI products today, it's not about innovation, it's about translation. And the challenge they face is turning complex AI capability into really clear narratives, practical use cases and really credible proof points so buyers can actually absorb it, uh, and adopt it with confidence. So a helpful discipline I would recommend is to keep innovating internally. Don't take your foot off the gas, but be selective about what you present publicly. And when you focus on capabilities that are real and they're tangible today, give a slight signal of where the product is heading that helps buyers build trust rather than feeling overwhelmed with an AI tool can have endless possibilities. And let's be honest, the production reality is far from actually be aiming to deliver it on most of what those products talk about.

Karen Lloyd: And where do you see the tension showing up then with buyers when they're evaluating the AI source solutions?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, so the gap shows in a pattern that I see quite often, uh, is that AI products in particular are positioned in very broad transformational terms. So buyers actually, in my experience, tend to adopt through very specific and practical use cases rather than this wider transformational piece. And again, if we uh, if we re highlight Gartner, they talk about organizations struggling to demonstrate that return on investment that less than 25% for AI initiatives. So for me, this is one of the reasons where that gap is why so many products remain stuck at pilot stage. Buyers then naturally become cautious and this builds distrust. So for me, the companies that uh, are doing this right, the other side of the coin, where they're building trust the fastest, they're the ones that can really define that problem they solve, they can show real, genuine, tangible outcomes rather than positioning AI as this vague transformation. And again, for me, it comes back to what buyers are shown in the first place. So if you're a company that's communicating every possible feature capability, that just creates confusion. And the most effective teams are the ones that innovate quickly but behind the scenes and present customers with capabilities that are real, proven and ready to use.

Karen Lloyd: Interesting. So given that gap between the AI capability and the real enterprise adoption, so what practical advice would you give to like a series A or B companies who are trying to position AI products in the market?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, absolutely. So it's not the AI companies that are innovating the fastest, it's the ones who make that value easiest for buyers to trust and frictionless to understand. So enterprise adoption, it always almost begins with that clear use case. In enterprise, we talk even about proof of concept and moving things on. But buyers don't adopt the technology simply because it's novel or oh, that's cool, I can add this feature or I can tweak it and look at it in this way. They adopt it because it solves a specific constraint or improves a real workflow that they genuinely find painful. So from my experience, my practical advice for early AI companies is to focus on clarity and proof and be really crystal clear to define the exact problem AI solves, show measurable outcomes, and help buyers explain that value internally. Right. Often with these AI type tools, the people that have the pain and use it aren't the ones that sign off on the budget. So what you communicate to them, they will still have to sell internally back up. And if it's all of these different vague promises, their understanding, trust and confusion can fragment. So for me to reinforce the concept and maybe a key takeaway for this section that we're discussing, from a communication perspective, it's often wise to control the flow, the innovation of bias C. Continue building the ambitious capabilities, but publicly emphasize what works today, give that small signal of where the product's heading and keep that balance of credibility and momentum.

Karen Lloyd: So an interesting thought though because we're talking about AI companies and not AI companies. But do you think that SaaS businesses are all going to be AI in the end? Because fundamentally AI is going to have to be built into every product.

Stephen Christou: I might put money down on this, Karen, but I'm fairly confident that There isn't a SaaS company out there that doesn't use AI in its homepage landing. Now I've even just seen a campaign launch from uh, a leading customer success company today and they talk about uh, sort of the era of SaaS is dead. I've seen that this morning, uh, logging in on LinkedIn. So I think increasingly SaaS is going to be seen as that sort of legacy player and AI is going to be coming in and it's on those SAS companies to reinvent themselves with their positioning, taking their credibility and trust and bring it to the AI era. All of the points I've discussed for the AB series companies, but clearly on a much larger scale and platform.

Karen Lloyd: Maybe I'm naive in this, but I, for me AI is like it's the engine that's driving in. It's a bit, it's a bit like saying, you know, it's we're using servers or we're using the cloud. It's almost like that. And I feel that sometimes the word AI is the mystique, uh, and it's confusing people but at the end of the day what it is doing is improving the efficiency in a way. A lot of these companies and SaaS products have been able to sort of drive things forward and make the product more agile and for the customer to use. And I think that's where you know we're talking about customer adoption. For me personally that's why I think some of the problem is it's just the word AI and the stigma around AI and the whole thing about the, the robots taking over from us, which I think is the problem, I think more than, than people just realizing it is just a way of making a product more efficient.

Stephen Christou: I think Karen, we've seen this over many years. Um, you know I remembering far to the um, you know the dot com bust in 2000, everybody's like things are going online, E commerce is the big thing. Um, around the 2010 as you mentioned, cloud adoption, um, and everything is as a service, BYOD, network service, etc. That all then converged and now we're in the AI era. I think the difference between AI and some of the other technologies is just the um, self learning perpetualness of the technology is what makes it different to some of the former ones. And what I would say is when you look at AI and you talk about what AI is, I actually look at AI in two lanes. AI that transforms a company and you buy AI as a product to make your company faster. Ah, and AI tools that improve the human being themselves. And I think there's much more agility and um, uh, future uh, potential in the individual to be the augmented worker. So for example in the current company I work for I have five custom GPTs doing roles of certain marketing areas. But it's not the organization that's adopted the AI, it's a human that's augmented the workflow and the process to make things faster to do product marketing, ICP, understanding, enable sales, etc. So I think companies will also have to wrestle with and understand if you're a larger SaaS legacy player, you're going to want to put AI workflows to enhance, save time, improve transformation. But if you're a smaller series A B and you're targeting a small AI, the smallest small workflow issue you may be targeting augmenting individuals.

Karen Lloyd: Yeah, that's really interesting actually. And what that makes me think is, you know we've seen the market change um, over the last couple of years, how people are hiring and I think AI has been a massive factor as well as the sort of Macroeconomics. And, you know, how do you think senior marketers should approach, you know, their next move, um, in this contextual environment of change we're talking about?

Stephen Christou: Yeah. So I would still encourage you to think above the level of AI, which is just a tool at the end of the day. Um, I think you and I have both seen the markets become more disciplined. Uh, and I've seen companies prioritizing roles that directly contribute to revenue rather than broader marketing mandates more than ever. So for senior marketers, that means focusing on where you can demonstrate clear commercial impact. And I, my opinion is the strongest positions today sit close to either founders if you're in a smaller company or in a larger company, sales pipeline and customer value, regardless of where you sit. So I think the opportunity is still there, but the expectation for measurable contribution is much higher than perhaps it was even maybe a few years ago.

Karen Lloyd: And when you say disciplined, do you mean like more siloed? So you're saying that companies are more siloed or you're saying and they've moved away from the generalist?

Stephen Christou: Indeed. So, um, having a conversation with a peer of mine that's a traditional vp, recently they talked about things like does anybody do campaigns anymore? Everybody now talks about growth. What's growth aligned to? Pipeline, marketing, market share, all those kind of things. Things. So I think even, uh, I think the technology and the AI that we've discussed just now has also had an impact on marketing. So it's not just a data driven science anymore. It's also a workflow enabled engine that actually has measurable output. And more than ever you can influence things like pipeline meeting books, all those sorts of nice, sharp commercial metrics that marketers should be focusing on.

Karen Lloyd: And I think, I think it's always interesting to note that obviously this podcast is on B2B, not just SaaS, and B2B isn't all the same. So the SaaS companies are streets ahead and they're much more generally commercially driven and focused about it than some of the other companies, you know, that are doing it in a different way. So there's other companies such as manufacturing, who, who, who still might even be looking at their data. And they're, they're, they are still talking about, um, clicks on the website, you know, because they don't have the data to look and the pipeline to look at. So it is interesting to see that, um, I think SAS companies are streets ahead still and they're moving more forward with commerciality, which is one of the reasons we do the podcast. I Don't know if you agree with that.

Stephen Christou: Yeah, 100%. Um, actually if I may just share, I had the opportunity recently to attend INSEAD business school. And um, it was, the program was an executive week long program on B2B marketing strategies. And what was really interesting is from a cohort of 12, there was only two dedicated marketers, myself, one other individual, and the rest were CIOs, CEOs, product leaders, all commercial type, uh, functions. And they came very much from a wide range of industries you're describing. Whereas myself and the market were very much in the tech SaaS landscape. And some of the things that INSEAD was showing to the cohort in terms of AI generative models and ways that AI is transforming was, was absolutely like revolutionary for them. There were some jaws hitting the floor. Right. And myself and the other marketer were looking at each other going, this is just another day in the office for us. And so, so seeing the reaction for me really brought that home. That was something extremely valuable that I understood.

Karen Lloyd: It's interesting actually because I, um, you know, there's someone that contacted me that listens to the podcast regularly and he comes from commercial background, not marketing. And he contacted me and said he's learned so much from all of listening to the podcast and he's moved into marketing from commercial. And he, he and I, and I sometimes think, oh, it's, it's really nice to know that the essence of this podcast is about making a marketing commercial and being that and people learning from it. So you know, marketing people I think for many years have been, um, you know, we always joke the coloring department or the other people, but ironically enough I think they just hide that their commerciality has been hidden. And actually marketing is now coming to the fore of being like a discipline that really can drive the business forward and not just the people that were doing the brochures or just doing um, the basic stuff. They are business growth, which is what you were talking about in the SAS companies. And SAS companies have adopted that way before many others.

Stephen Christou: Absolutely. And I think the nature of the technicality of what you're buying needs to be at that level. There's lots of data to prove what you can and can't do. So there's, there's almost less place to hide in SaaS because everything can be so clearly understood through data and workflows.

Karen Lloyd: Exactly. So, so interesting enough that out of that 12, the two of you were marketing, but what led you to go on that course then?

Stephen Christou: So actually I reached the point where I wanted to momentarily step back from kind of that day to day execution and sharpen my thinking around how companies actually create value in B2B markets. And I did a lot of research with executive programs and found that the interior program really ticked all those boxes. And uh, I've mentioned about the cohort and the mix of those perspectives, but what it actually reinforced was something quite simple. Regardless of where you sit in the organization, regardless of industry, we're all ultimately trying to answer the same question, which is what problems are our customers trying to solve? How do we align the business around solving them effectively? And what it made really clear for me from the experience is that sustainable growth doesn't come from marketing tactics alone. You know that uh, darn coloring in department, okay, comes from aligning product customer value and go to market strategy around a real problem that buyers genuinely need to solve. So for me the investment was about strengthening that strategic lens and approaching growth challenges with a uh, better commercial perspective.

Karen Lloyd: Fantastic. And did you learn any sort of frameworks or perspectives? I love a framework. So any frameworks, perspectives in the program that's influenced you going forward with your marketing and leadership?

Stephen Christou: Yeah, there are some. I won't go into the technicalities, but as a concept and idea, one that really stayed with me is that strong B2B companies organize themselves around customer value rather than internal functions. So taking the outside in versus building the company, then hoping that it fits the market essentially is, is, is the takeaway. So it means marketing isn't about generating demand, it's about helping the organization clearly define the problem it solves, who it solves it for and why it matters. Only then the demand piece comes in after that. And when you get those elements aligned, that's where we get the wonderful marketing becoming the strategic growth driver rather than just that promotional event heavy type function.

Karen Lloyd: Excellent. I recently did a podcast with Louise early on that exact subject on how she positioned um, you know, industry perspective and how they built it around that. So if that's something that anyone's interested in, is worth, um, interesting, um, to look at the podcast with Louise Early. So at the moment there's also a lot of discussion about portfolio careers, particularly in sort of VC backed companies. So can you, can you explain what you know? I know we spoke about this offline, so I know some people don't call it portfolio careers, they call it something else. So what's your perception of a portfolio career and how do you think that model's working for companies at the moment?

Stephen Christou: I mean for the individual, the work can be extremely Valuable exposes you to multiple different companies, markets, stakeholders, growth, challenges across very quickly. Uh, and that can really sharpen your perspective, uh, from, from a, from a marketeer. But I think there's also real value in long term ownership as well. And from my personal experience, I'd say biggest commercial outcomes in B2B for me have come from building momentum in a region and, and looking after that market over a period of years. So I'd say both models have their place. It depends what your goals and objectives are. Personally I found I've created the most impact where it's clear ownership and it's got time to compound results. And that can come from both environments.

Karen Lloyd: Yeah, I also think that the portfolio marketing, which is people working for more than one company and having that agility, I think it's also become because of the economy and people can't afford to have somebody all the time. And I think maybe that will change, um, as if we move to where growth is, is becoming more prevalent, um, once things settle down, I think in the macroeconomic environment. So yeah, I think it's also a sign of the time really as well. We're coming really close to the end of this now. So would you say there's any one take home you'd really want the listeners to have from this, that they remember from this podcast even?

Stephen Christou: Uh, absolutely. I'd phrase it as follows. Technology may change very quickly, but human decision making doesn't. So if we're talking about AI marketing growth, the companies that are going to succeed are the ones who make those complex innovations understandable, useful and trustworthy for the people who actually have to adopt it.

Karen Lloyd: We're still humans at the end of the day and we still have emotions. Even though people say they make decisions in different ways. But fundamentally there's an underlying emotion, isn't there, to every, um, to every personal decision and business decision. Um, even if you are following the data and everything else, you know, humans are humans, so. Oh, that's a brilliant, absolutely brilliant concept. Anything else I didn't get to ask you, um, that you'd like to mention?

Stephen Christou: Just on the concept of learning and development, um, senior marketers that are thinking about how to stay relevant and keep that development up, I recommend three focus areas for them. Uh, deep understanding of your customers got to be the foundation. Stronger commercial thinking and staying curious about how technology is changing how people buy, I think are three core principles to keep relevant in modern marketing. And look, we can all go to a course. Learning can be helpful, but the real value comes from observing how markets evolve and customers and sales talk about this in the real world. So in the end I think the relevance will come from the ones that are learning but have the intersection of staying grounded in with real business problems.

Karen Lloyd: Fantastic. I think everyone's learned so much today about your journey from coming from a large enterprise background into a small AI, and also about the real way AI is being adopted and used in businesses. I think it's an, you know, looking back to that deeper customer interaction but how that now translates. So it's been really valuable. Thank you Stephen so much for taking the time to do this and share your knowledge with everybody.

Stephen Christou: My pleasure, Karen. Thanks for having me.

Karen Lloyd: Great stuff. So thank you also for listening. I'm so lucky to be this podcast host and speak to brilliant marketing leaders like Stephen. I myself am a passionate marketer, but I'm also a headhunter and managing director of Armstrong Lloyd sales and marketing search firm. So if you're looking to grow your team and you'd like a conversation of what the current market looks like, please do drop me an email ah@karen armstronglloy.co.uk I'd love to hear from you, but in the meantime, please share this podcast with anyone that you think is going to learn from it so we can together keep shining that spotlight on marketing.