Episode 549: Jordan Morgan, Entrepreneur & Pro Basketball Player

Speaker A: Foreign welcome to Sports Business Secrets. I'm your host, Kevin Tarka. This podcast is specifically designed to share secrets from experts in the sports business world to help you along your own path to success in this industry. Each episode is packed with lessons and insights that, ah, never expire. You'll hear from general managers of professional teams, to CEOs of sports tech companies, to agents, coaches, players and everything in between. I invite you to join me in real time on my personal journey of representing players and coaches, traveling the world and always finding a way to battle through obstacles in this competitive industry. Jordan, welcome to Sports Business Secrets.

Speaker B: Thank you, man. Good. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: For sure. So for, for those who don't know Jordan, I'll do a, a quick intro here. I have guests from a variety of different roles in the industry on and uh, Jordan defines what it means to thrive at the intersection of sports impact. Uh, he's a University of Michigan alum who earned both his bachelor's and master's in engineering while playing high level college basketball. Uh, he went on to carve out an impressive pro career overseas playing in many different countries around the world, including representing Slovenia on the international stage. Um, and the off court stuff, the entrepreneurial side is my favorite part. Um, you know, he built his personal foundation focused on education. He's launched AI driven travel tech companies, uh, with his wife that we're going to dive into and ask him all about. He's a textbook example of how to use sport as a platform for something greater. So we've got a lot to dive into here officially. Welcome again.

Speaker B: Thank you, man. Thank you. Can't wait. Let's get into it.

Speaker A: All right, let's go. So we'll do the easy start stuff. Um, you know, where you're from, what got you into sports, all that, all that stuff. So share with the audience who might not know a little bit about your background, like where you grew up and all that and then we'll go from there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I grew up in the Detroit area. Um, you know, pretty normal childhood, you know, nothing special. Um, but I did love sports. My first sport was actually baseball. Um, and I played football. I played, um, I was in a bowling league. I played obviously baseball, basketball. So I was just an all around active kid. You know, we played a bunch of other sports in the neighborhood. So anything we could, we can get our hands on tennis rackets or you know, rollerblades and hockey sticks. I mean we played everything. So it was, you know, we were really active when I was growing up great.

Speaker A: And, and so, you know, obviously being, being an athlete, you know, you started to excel in those sports and then you started to excel in basketball and um, you know, you're on the radar. So let's talk about, um, the recruiting process a bit and then into where you played college basketball. So it's always interesting to hear like, everyone's different recruiting stories. For me, uh, or let's say lack thereof being a walk on. And then I've had guests on that were, you know, the top recruits and then under the radar. So you were, I mean, you were pretty high level. You know, you were what, top, top five or six in the state. You were a top 50 kid. Um, so what was that like, getting the phone calls and you know, what ultimately led you to choosing Michigan? Um, you know, over the other offers you had?

Speaker B: Well, um, interestingly, I actually wasn't ranked as high as I thought I deserved in high school. I wasn't, I actually didn't make the top 150, which was crazy because I did get invited to the top, top 100 camp. Um, so I think a little bit that was because kind of political in my opinion. Um, but I, you know, I was always a tall kid and so I didn't really have like a breakout year until my senior year. But by that time I was already committed to Michigan. I was also like a bit of a unorthodox recruit for most coaches because I was very invested and serious about my academics. So I was very clear that I wanted to study engineering in college. So my list of schools that I could go to were Michigan, Purdue, um, I was getting recruited by Notre Dame, Stanford, uh, schools like that. So it was all very much academically driven as much as athletically driven during my recruiting process. So as far as Michigan goes, I never really took Michigan seriously as a basketball school because at that time I was in High School 2006 and 2009. So during my like middle school and early high school years, Michigan was kind of in a really bad place. And I had gone and, you know, taking visits and stuff and went to games. But like, I didn't, never, never thought of it like a basketball school. Even though I grew up my whole childhood as a Michigan fan. My whole childhood, I grew up in Michigan fan going to Michigan football games. But it wasn't until Coach B. Line took the job in Michigan, started recruiting me, started like talking about the idea of rebuilding the program that it really became interesting for me. And then, um, I committed to beginning my junior year and then that year in my junior year, they went back to the ACLA tournament for the first time in 11 years. So it was, like, an exciting time to be going there. Um, or actually they went back to turn my. My senior year. I'm sorry, but it was an exciting time to be going to Michigan. So, um, it was crazy how it worked out because they were. They weren't really one of the schools that I even really wanted to go to. And then, um, it all kind of just made sense. And it's funny how life works that way.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that just shows. I. I think with recruiting, it's. It's really about relationships and coaching and how coaches can, you know, make or break your experience or, you know, it's. It's. It's one thing to play for the school name on the front of the jersey, but it's really the people around you that are going to be, you know, the catalyst to how good you're going to be at school. Um, talk a little bit about real quick, just the engineering part, like, what. What got you interested in that? And, like, what, you know, what did you envision? You know, if. Obviously we'll talk about, like, you didn't make pro or after pro was done, like, what did you envision yourself doing with that degree?

Speaker B: Um, so I always loved math and science. Um, you know, I was great at math. Love science. Like, those are my two favorite subjects. Um, I was like, big Legos, kid experiments. Like, that was. That was who I was as a kid. And when I got to high school, like middle school, I was taking high school algebra. Um, I got to high school. You know, I just. I just excelled in those areas, like I said. So I was in, like, the advanced math and science courses, and I thought I wanted to be a bio. I thought I wanted to study biomedical engineering until I got to Michigan and realized, like, that was going to be impossible. Um, and maybe in a different life when I. If I. If I weren't an athlete, I always. I always thought that if I didn't go to, you know, wasn't an athlete and didn't go to Michigan, that I would have wanted to go to mit. But my dad was also an engineer, and so it just seemed like a normal thing to me. I think that's why representation is important. Um, you know, seeing my dad as, you know, a black man, as an engineer that commanded respect from his peers, uh, based on merit and his intel, his intellect, like, that was a normal thing for me. And so, you know, I do think that's why, you know, Representation is important in all facets. And I think that's become like the basis of my passion around representation, you know, with my foundation and everything. So, um. But yeah, I mean, when I was doing my recruiting process, I went to Michigan for basketball recruiting. I also went for engineering recruiting. I was going to like tech day and all these different things on campus. Um, so I would go like one weekend for the basketball game, but like the next week I was coming up for like this engineering event. Ah, on campus for engineering. So it was. It's definitely been a huge part of my life. And I realized that, look, I mean, with nil, people are making a lot of money. And you know, nowadays NBA contracts are crazy. But you got to think about when I was in high school and stuff, the percentage of people, and this is still probably true, but the percentage of people that make enough money from sport to never have to do anything again is so small. Right? So, uh, everybody talks about how small it is to go D1 and like how small it is to go pro to the NBA, to go pro. Even small, you know, small, smaller, smaller, whatever. What about the players? You know, how many, what percentage of the players make it to the NBA nowadays? It's a lot, a lot more because it's. The contracts are crazy, but they never have to do another thing or never want to do another thing. So for me, basketball was like half of who I was always. It was like half. It was never my whole identity. So even when I was in college, like, I was very adamant about not being just a basketball player. Um, I studied engineering, I studied entrepreneurship. You know, I got certified in different business certifications and stuff while I was in school. I was in school full time from the time I got there in June 2009 to May 2014. I never took a semester off. I was always doing, I was always enrolled. It was literally. My life has literally been split in two of studying, learning and performing. It's never been one or the other.

Speaker A: Man, that's so good. And if you're an athlete, I mean, anybody listening, but especially if you're an athlete listening and young athlete, like, play that part over again. Like, that's huge. Like, just. Your identity was never solely built on being a basketball player because that's, you know, I've got friends, I've got teammates. You see it all the time that you look. And like, after basketball and it's, you know, some, some of them, it's no fault of their own. But you can fix this is if you put all your eggs in the identity of being a basketball player and that ball stops bouncing because it will. What are you going to do? And if you just, if you don't think about that, then it's, it's going to be a problem.

Speaker B: Um, but yeah, takes a lot of work though. That takes a lot of work because everyone around you places your worth in your performance, right? Even the people that love you the most can, um, be, can, can do this at times, right? They still love you for who you are, but you always love more when you're performing better. So you know, from, from, from the world. And so it's really hard not to let your worth, your self worth and your identity be tied up into who you are as an athlete. Because you know, especially like once you become a pro because that's how you feed yourself and your family. Like, it's, it's, it's, you know, I've had great seasons and I've had like frustrating and terrible seasons and it's, it's a, it's like uh, a, it's a full time job not to let that like eat at you personally when it doesn't, when things don't go your way in sport. Because everything from your high school and your recruiting and your friends and your, your girlfriends and you know, to college like you plan to, I mean like through your whole life has been dictated by, you know, how well you perform. And so it takes work. And I, you know, to your point, like when you're young in high school, you may not understand this but like you need to start trying to. And you know, as you get uh, into college, you know, a lot of, a lot of players, the college is a big time, a big transition for a lot of players because they go from being a man in high school to being nobody in college. And I'm talking about from a sport perspective, right? Because the conversation we're having right now is that your worth isn't about your sport, but from a sport perspective, you were the guy in high school and you may never touch the court in college. And that's like a big like disconnect for guys. Um, because every level that happens, there's like a, there's a change at every level because it narrows. And so there's um, a transition that people go through and that first hits people in college when you start to think about, dang, like, I'm not the guy anymore, who am I? Right? So you got to start trying to establish that foundation of who you are as early as you can. And it can't just Be as an athlete. That doesn't mean you don't compete at your highest to be your best. Of course you do. But that's not who you are. Uh, that's what you do.

Speaker A: Yeah, without a doubt. And I think, again, just to put a bow on this topic, because I'm sure we can talk about this one forever, but, uh, it's sexy to be a good athlete. Like, it's cool, right? It's not as sexy to go join, uh, a mechanical, uh, engineering program. Right. In the perspective of others. But what's not sexy is not being an athlete anymore. Not having a job and not knowing what you want to do. Right. That's not fun.

Speaker B: Look, uh, to me, I was taking electronics class in high school, and that was sexy to me. So, you know, we got to be better in society about choosing what we think is sexy because we think it is not because society tells us it is. I. I thought that was cool, and I still do. And I was always happy to be a nerd, and I didn't care, right? So, you know, at the end of the day, you choose what you value in life. Don't let the world dictate you, dictate to you what you should value. Because all those people that are the nerds, they end up, you know, they end up doing great things. So, you know, be smart, go to class. Like, I was in weird. I was. I would go to basketball practice, be with the athletes, and I would be in, like I said, like, AP Physics and electronics with the quote, unquote, nerds in school. But, like, to me, it was just people. And it was. That was the things I was passionate about. And who cares what anybody thinks?

Speaker A: That's awesome, man. I, uh, always tell people what one of my most impactful classes in college was, and it was drama. And I was like, man, high school, you couldn't. You wouldn't find me anywhere near that class because of what I thought people would think about me. But it's like, man, in college, you know, that. That actually made me go outside my comfort zone and speak publicly. And it was like, nobody thought that was cool, right? But those are types of classes that are going to make you grow as a person and actually as a player.

Speaker B: Yeah. But you think it's cool now, like, looking back, and some of the relationships I made in college with people outside of my normal circle of college athletics are some of my best relationships I have because they're some of the best people, right? You know, you limit yourself, you limit your life experience.

Speaker A: Amen. So let's, let's talk a little bit about your time at Michigan here and, and not to dive into, you know, like the actual whole playing career, but you did have some awesome success and some, some cool experiences. So maybe talk about what it took to get, you know, obviously you, you had a red uh, shirt year, right? So you didn't, it wasn't all rainbows and butterflies and all championships. Like there were some down times, but you did eventually experience that, you know, final four run and championship games. So talk about some of the highs and the lows and your actual college experience.

Speaker B: I mean I started out my college experience at uh, like the low, the lowest. I went through two surgeries basically or two injuries. My, like from the first week I walked on campus I got one and then I had to have knee surgery and I came back from that and almost a couple, I want to say two or three months later had to have shoulder surgery. So spent 11 months of my restaurant year rehab. And so that was tough. But um, number one, we had great people. Our coaches and staff were just amazing at supporting us and bringing out the best in us, whether from a skill standpoint, our mentality, all that. And they, they were like, they did magic from Coach B Line. Every single person had like a really specific role to play in forming us as players and as men. And it like it was just this well oiled machine and uh, like these touch points of different people that like help to keep you on the right path and. But it's a lot, I mean it was a lot of hard work. I don't, I don't know how any other, any other way to put it. Then you know, we just worked our butts off and we had people that pushed us to do that, that we were held to a high standard, extremely detailed, diligent. Um, and we had a culture of, of um, again just, just work. So people were just in the gym and if you weren't like, it was, it was weird. Like you were like it wasn't weird but like you just, it was like he's not working. You know, so we just had that culture of there was always people in the gym that were working and that really was a differentiator. And I mean, and that's really the differentiator in sport at the highest level in general. I mean from being a high level high school player nowadays to high level in college, to being a pro, it's just about hours. You got to be in great shape, you got to be uh, a great athlete and you got to work on your game in a very detailed and specific way that translates to game time, performance, and that's that simple. People ask me, young players ask me how to do this or get here or whatever. And that I, you know, my brother was, he just finished his college career and he would ask me and I'd say, you already know the answer. You know what I'm going to say. It's just work.

Speaker A: Got to put in the work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What was one of the. I'm sure there's many here, but not to put in the spot. Coach B Line. Obviously one of the, you know, most well known, greatest coaches, college coaches, pro coaches, experience. What was one of the things that um, you'll always remember or that he taught you? I guess two things. One would be like, basketball wise, that you were like, whoa, you know, like this is new to me or this helped your basketball game. And then one in life.

Speaker B: Uh, well, first of all, from a basketball perspective, we just learned the importance of, uh, fundamentals and details. We would spend our first two weeks of practice without running any plays or shooting any basketballs. We would just catch and pass the basketball. Like we had tape on the floor everywhere you were supposed to be. Um, and it was extremely detailed. We had like the craziest, like ball handling and like we had to pass. There was like a string of tests we had to pass just to be able to practice. And if you didn't pass them by the specific date, you were just run every day. So and that was like mic and drills and like between like there were like taps and all. Uh, there was like a whole list that you had to get this goal. And um, half of them were like silly. But like, it was also just like a test to see if you would actually work on it, you know, because guys wouldn't work on it all summer and then they would try to hurry up and it just didn't work that way. But we started every practice with very specific like skill work. And so everything was just, uh, we had a routine and our practices were scheduled to the minute. I'm talking about the minute on the clock, like and it was like on to the next. It was like clockwork. So you know, I talk about that well oiled machine from a personal standpoint, but from a basketball standpoint it was the same way. And so just learning how important all the details are in preparation, game plan, performance, all that stuff, like, is the one thing I learned from him. Just the other thing is he's just like a really good man. Uh, trust me, we had me and him. But ahead many times I was there for five years and I was probably his most. One of his most unique players that he had. Um, our relationship, that is. And we have a great relationship to this day, but where many times we butted heads. But the one thing that nobody can ever say about him is that he was that he's not like, he. Not. He doesn't. He lacks integrity. Nobody can ever say that because the number one thing that he would preach to us is like, do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. And, you know, he grew up upstate New York, Tree farm, apple tree farm, whatever. He had all these stories, you know, he would ask the freshman when they come in. Yeah, he would always say, okay, we finished, uh, preparing for our first game. And he'd go, okay, the hay's in the barn. He would like call on a freshman, be like, you know what that means? And like this. The answers to that were like all over the place every year. Right. Um, but I know what that means now. And I bet you a lot of people listening don't know what that means. You know, most people didn't grow up on a farm, so they don't know what that means. But, um, you know, just. Just little things like that. Super old fashioned, which is. It's hard to deal with as a young college kid like that. People think he's, you know, crazy or an a hole or whatever because he's old fashioned. He's just old fashioned and that's how he is. But he was, he was the. He is a good man and I appreciate him for that.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Um, all right, well, let's. As we transition out towards your pro career here, um, let's just talk about, I guess. Yeah, that personal transition for you. So obviously you get to a point where you're seeing success, um, you know, in the classroom and graduating and on the court, though, and then you open up opportunities for the. For, for to play at the next level. So where was your mindset in terms of where you thought you were going to play? Um, were you hopeful, obviously, like most people to get to the NBA? And then was there that backup or was it not even a backup for you? Like, what was your vision for you to be a professional basketball player? Um, and then we'll jump into kind of how you got there.

Speaker B: You know, it's weird. Like, my vision for myself as a pro was kind of all over the place, if I'm being honest. When I was younger, I didn't really dream about being A pro. I dreamed about playing college basketball. I remember watching like college ncaa, you know, when I was in middle school and stuff and I wanted to do that. It wasn't until I got to college and I saw my roommate get drafted, uh, our sophomore year that I was like that, it like clicked that like I could do that, like I could be a pro. It just didn't even. Wasn't really something I thought about. And um, so when I did finish my career, um, I went through the pre draft process and stuff. I knew that it would be like a long shot, but I thought, you know, there may be some situation in which I find the right fit, you know, whatever. But you know, it didn't work out that way. I had some great workouts and some things that you know, I thought would pan out, but at the end of the day I had opportunities, you know, to play summer league and stuff. And I think just between where my game was at and where I was at personally at that time, like my first two years out of, out of college, like I just was not an NBA player then, right? And you know, I didn't really hit my stride as a pro until like my fourth or fifth year. And that took like a lot of concentrated effort to get there. And you know, by that time you're older, you know, you're not really on the NBA radar anymore. So it just kind of, it just between my career and like my, my game, like being an undersized big, that's not really shooting big too. Like, you know that, that really limited me in the era where shooting became like a premium. So there was like, there's a lot of factors, you know, I think, you know, just my size. I step on the NBA court at 6, 8 and like two guards are my size. Like it's, it just, it wasn't really a good fit for me personally. I would have loved for it to work out differently, but um, you know, just. I just wasn't an NBA player. Probably majority M of my career. You maybe could have made a case in my peak that I could have been on a roster, but um, for most of my career I was not an NBA player.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I'm glad you said too because you know, even 10 minutes before this recording this, I'm getting messages and calls from college players or post college trying to, trying to make it and it's like I can't, you know, I will always, if the NBA is your dream, shoot for it. You should, if you want to be a pro player, you should always want to be the best that there is in the world. But it's like, you know, I'll get a message from someone that's, you know, six foot, wanting to be a two guard, and you're just like, listen, man, like, you know, you need to understand how it works as well. So back to the educational part. Like, you want to be a pro. Well, I'm m not saying you can't make the NBA, but like, what is your size and skill set and where does your game translate the best? So if you're 6, 7 or 6, 8 and, and you're a big, and you're really good at it, like where in the world or what leagues or markets are you best? And is that position in most demand? So just doing some of that stuff.

Speaker B: Uh, 100, 100, I think, you know, most. There's a disconnect between basketball players that have not. That are not professionals and actual professional basketball. Um, not just to the NBA. I mean, to the whole, the whole world. Right. Like, most people don't understand how it works and they underestimate how difficult it is,

Speaker A: to say the least. To say the least, I would agree. Um, well, let's, let's jump into one of my favorite parts of, like, your actual international career. Right. So one of my favorite parts of my journey, and we talked about this, is just where, where the game of basketball can take you around the world, right? So you know, your career for more than a decade and you know, 8, 9, 10, however many countries, um, and, and the way that you phrased it, I think, I can't remember. I think it might be on your LinkedIn or somewhere was, you know, it's, it's not just about the game where you've been, but those years were a master class in adaptability, cultural immersion, and seeing the world from new perspectives. It's just like, for me that, like, that's. I couldn't have phrased it better. So let's talk about that mindset of going in and, you know, where you started and living abroad and getting used to the new cultures. I mean, not even to mention we'll get to playing for the Slovenian national team and getting that passport. Like, yeah, talk about that, that process.

Speaker B: Well, um, it's a shock, first of all. I mean, I don't know anybody that doesn't feel that way when they first go overseas. Life is so different, the world is so different, uh, from what we experience here in America. And people's mentalities are so different. Not only that, but it's your first time as a Pro. So you combine, like, the cultural shock with the shock of, like, being a pro and m being a pro overseas, which is very, very, um, unforgiving, because they don't have the luxury of developing you as a player. So you got to show up and you got to perform at the highest level. I mean, like, the expectations are sometimes unreasonable, and they don't care. And I have great relationships with people from all over the world. Right. Friends in so many countries, great experiences. But at the end of the day, if you don't perform, none of that matters.

Speaker A: It's your job.

Speaker B: They can like you as much as anybody else, but they will like you as they're shaking your hand to send you home on the plane. And so that is a very difficult reality for people to deal with, um, especially young players going overseas for the first time, because, you know, they've never in their life dealt with that level of, you know, just this concern for my own personal feelings. And they don't care. They don't care about you. They definitely don't care about your feelings. They probably don't care about your personal life. Like, you'd be lucky if they care about, you know, what's going on in your personal life. All they care about is if you go on the court and perform. It doesn't matter what you got going on. And that's hard to deal with. And, you know, I know people that. That struggle with that, you know, for their whole career, for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, it kind of goes by the wayside of, like, don't forget this is your job. Right? This is. This is literally your job. And so whether you're going to, you know, work at an accounting firm or sell ticket sales or whatever, doing be an engineer, it's like you're getting paid to do a. Do a service, essentially, or build a product. And if you don't fulfill your obligations, then, like, you would get fired. Like, imagine showing up to your sales meeting saying, yeah, like, I'm, um, supposed to bring in 100k of revenue, and I brought in 12. Okay, well, you're getting fired. Like, you know, they might be nice people. Same thing abroad is like, if you're. And you. I don't think. And you could touch on this. I don't. I don't think you. You were in many places, you kind of played yourself above the level of, like, the. The entry level, where you're the only important team in most. Most situations for you. But even if you're not, if you're. There's multiple Imports in the team. It's like there's a lot on your shoulders. Like, you. You're brought in and you're paid a lot of money for a reason. You put the ball in the basket, get stops, block shots and win games. Like, period.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're the only one or not. Like, you, um, you are an investment for them. Like, so it doesn't really matter how many there are. I've seen. I've seen that play out on teams where we had six, seven imports. Like, if things are not going how they want them to go, it doesn't matter if there's one import or eight imports. They're gonna, uh, they're gonna pick somebody to blame, you know, especially because, you know, the coach is trying to protect himself, the GM is trying to protect himself, the president is trying to protect himself. Right? So you're the first. You're the first one to go. I've seen good players get cut that didn't deserve it because the team wasn't doing what they expected. Like, performance. The team wasn't performing at the level that they wanted. And the first thing that happens before they fire the coach, they're going to change out two players. Right? Then the coach is next. But, okay, they'll give the coach more time because he says, well, these aren't my players I picked or whatever. So then it'll be two players to go. So it doesn't. And I've seen that happen to good players, I think happening good players because they got to fix somebody to blame. Well, this player, and it might not even be like, your actual performance. It could be, well, he's too small or he. He doesn't defend full court. Like, we. It's just like, it's whatever they feel is a reason. You know, I personally have found it most to my benefit while you're playing overseas, to let teams know as little as possible about your personal life. M. Like, um, the people that make decisions. Because I've seen all kinds of things used against you. All kinds of things. I mean, I was on one team and I had got a meal service and like, a delivery service. And I shared it with my teammates because they were giving us a deal on this delivery service. And I had a coach tell me, like, yeah, you're thinking about the wrong things. You're thinking about meal service. And I'm like, what are you talking about? If anything, this is helping me focus more. But that. That's just like, the level. That's the level of scrutiny.

Speaker A: That's searching for anything. They'll search for anything. Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, yeah, so let's, uh. No, that's really good stuff. Um, especially for guys that haven't been over yet. But even for pros, now, I know a lot of pros will, um, listen to these types of things and be like, oh, yeah, I'm going through that same thing. So I'm sure that will be beneficial. So let's talk about a specific market. Let's talk about Slovenia, because I want to touch on, like, the process of you playing for the national team. Because one thing that I like to tell a lot of college guys or college coaches or whoever who calls me saying, hey, can you help this player? You know, on their pro career? And one of the first questions I ask now is, well, do they have dual citizenship anywhere? Do you have family abroad? Because it helps me help them. Right? And we don't have to dive into how valuable you are with an import. Um, you know, import versus local player. You can touch on that if you want, but I think just telling your story on what that means for your career, how you got that passport, um, will help some people listening.

Speaker B: I get this question a lot. A lot of people think it's like, ah, some like, special story or circumstance, but it's really just as simple as I played in Slovenia for one season. We won the championship. I had relationships there. And so when they were looking for an import, uh, to naturalize, because you get one naturalized player for the national team. So when they were looking for, they needed a big. And they needed one that wasn't playing Euroleague at the time because Euroleague players couldn't play in the windows. And I was pretty much the best or one of the best available at, like, you know, if at that point in my career I was probably top, uh, I don't know, I think I was the number one, but I was probably the best, you know, big in Europe that wasn't playing EUROLEAGUE at that time in my career. Um, so for them, it was. It was just. It was needing someone to make sure that they qualify for the Eurobasket and the World World cup and all this stuff during the windows in the season. And so, you know, having a previous relationship there helped with coaches, and, like, some of my assistant coaches from Slovenia were with the national team. But also, it just is kind of like ideal circumstance, uh, for them at the time.

Speaker A: And, yeah, you know, again, you touched on a little bit, but there could be many different stories on how players end up on a national team, whether it's their great grandparents and they, and they somehow get the passport and then they play a certain amount of years there. Or, um, you know, they marry into a local, you know, a local girl from that country. Yeah. Or they're just good at basketball and they're just like, hey, look, this is the person that we want to invest in. Right. So for you, you obviously talked about that part. Um, but talk about.

Speaker B: Well, it's funny, it's funny you mentioned that. It's funny you mentioned that too, because, uh, I try to get citizenship two other ways. So first I had the Cyprus national team approach me to naturalize me to play with them. I actually submitted all the paperwork for that and then never heard back. So, uh, when Slovenia approached me, I told them that that happened and they said, well, if we naturalize you first, it doesn't matter. So, um, that wasn't the first team to approach me about that. The second, um, my. I actually have Hungarian roots on one side of my family, so I tried to do that too. But the process in Hungary was like, complicated. And like, you know, I actually have an aunt that got her Hungarian citizenship, like, like a regular citizen. And she had to spend like three years learning Hungarian. So, uh, that was just a dead end. So I just, you know, it was like I had tried. That was 2019, I believe, or 2020. I finally got my passport. That was the summer of 2019. Um, and so, you know, you're talking five years into my pro career, but I had been trying for like five years really to try to figure out a way to get a passport because of, you know, the increased opportunity.

Speaker A: Yeah, like you said, I did a, um, uh, blog or an episode on this the other day about like naturalization pathways and every country is different, so you have to know and do your research. And you know, in Italy, if you have, you know, I've been trying to get my passport, I got to revisit it. It's like great grandparents. Not that, not that. Despite, uh, my three point capabilities, now I don't think the Italian national team will be looking for me. But, uh, but, uh, but I think,

Speaker B: I think too, like, you have to play a game with the national team or something. Correct, Exactly.

Speaker A: I was going to say in Italy you have to, to be there for a certain amount of years and play in the league, as you know, before you're 18 years old, uh, in order to count as that specific local player. Now again, there's always a way they can, they can naturalize you for the one spot for the team, but Point is, if you're a player listening, do your research, because there's many different paths you can get there. Yeah, sure. And then that second part, though, that, you know, if you could talk about is, so you get. You get this passport and, like, how that helps your. Your career moving forward and what opportunities that open for you in other teams and other markets, or in the Slovenian market, um, with that European passport.

Speaker B: It was funny. I got that passport, and it only helped me, like, one time. Um, when I played it. When I played in Italy, I just essentially counted. It made it easier for them, the visa process. I didn't need to get, like, a visa and stuff. I still counted as an import, but they. I. I counted as a European for them, so they didn't. It was, like, better for them for, like, the taxes and stuff like that. But I did sign a contract in Spain and ended up not going. So that was one situation where it would have helped me. And I, uh. And that was one thing I wanted to do for my career, was get to Spain. It just never worked out. And then playing in Slovenia, it's hard because there's only one, like, serious, like, I won't say not one serious team, but there's one, like, big team in Slovenia. And so just the market there for basketball is smaller. So, you know, that's one thing about the passport is, like, some guys. I see some guys that play in, like, some countries where the league is great. Um, like being in Turkey, for example, like, if you're a Turkish player and you're, like, halfway decent, like, you're in a great position because all the teams got money and, like, there's only so many Turkish players, but, like, you know, having a passport in other countries, you know, Slovenia is probably in the middle, but there's probably countries that, while it's European country, is, like, even less valuable. Right. Because it's like, you're not gonna, like, play there.

Speaker A: Yeah. Doesn't do anything for you on the court.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker B: Um, no, as a local, it would still help you. It can still help you, like, to go to Spain or other countries or France. But maybe it. You don't have that option of, like, well, I'll just play in my local country. Right? Because, like, it may not be a serious league. So, like, that's one factor to consider, too.

Speaker A: Yeah. All good points. Um, so let's, uh, for the sake of time here, because I want to talk about a lot of other topics here, let's talk about maybe one. I mean, you spent. Obviously, you spent time in uh, a bunch of other markets. You were uh, in Greece, you were uh, I uh, believe at the time with my guy Mauro Sartori in Venice, um, with Rayer. So I mean maybe pick a market or even the one that you were most recently in the Asian, Asian markets. Like, what's another one that you had an awesome experience or that you want to maybe share some details on? Because uh, you know, playing, playing basketball at a high level around the world is uh, is nothing to, uh, to be shy of.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, first of all, I did love the Asian market. I love Korea. I wish, you know, things had gone better basketball wise. You know, it was just kind of like a convergence of just a bunch of just unfortunate circumstances of our, my time in Korea. Um, but the people were great, the league was great. Like the, the opportunity is very good. Like they have good money, they take care of you, you get, you get all your money, um, and you just play a lot of basketball. So I mean those are positives. There are some things that I probably don't love about it. Like the non guaranteed contracts like, are difficult and it's a risk. Um, as far as markets go. My favorite market that I played in honestly was Turkey. Um, to me it's the best place to play. It's super high level. Um, all the teams have decent budgets. It's a good style of play. Like it's fun. Like usually you got like five or six imports and you kind of just play like they kind of get to play free. Nobody practices super hard. You know, you practice hard enough and nobody like kills you. And the travel is pretty easy. You know, they let you live your life. They don't really stress you off the court like some other places, like try to like monitor all your movements. Like Turkey is not like that at all. And you know, just from the weather and the people is affordable, food is good, the people are like accommodating. And um, so I think just from a quality of life and quality of basketball, like that's probably as good as you get. Now there's some other places where maybe you got better quality of life or you know, some other places where maybe you have better quality basketball. But I think just the balance of those two things for me, Turkey was, is probably as, as good as it gets.

Speaker A: I don't think I can have uh, baklava here in the States. After my last trip to Istanbul, I'm like, I can't even have it here anymore. It's so good. Um, no, that's interesting. I feel like you don't hear too much about. And you were. You're with Karsiaka and, And who else?

Speaker B: Bambit and Konya Spore. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because a lot of times you hear, you know, obviously you hear about at the time, the Euroleague teams or, you know, Fenner. Uh, yeah, or. Yeah, Fenner or Galatasaray. Um, but, uh, that's cool to hear. I, I mean, I love that market. I love Istanbul. But there's a lot of cool other cities in, in Turkey that you can play.

Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, so, like, Spain is obviously like the number one competitive league. Right. But like, I've also heard like, that, that practices are crazy and like, you know, it's just all like, almost too, like, competitive from a basketball standpoint, where it's like, you're practicing really hard, all the games are hard. Like, you don't get to like, enjoy your life as much. Maybe I never played there, but I know people that played in both and prefer Turkey. Uh, but most of the Division 1 teams in Turkey have a decent budget, so you can get good money. Um, the fans are good. I mean, like, the life is like, super, super comfortable. Like, I loved it.

Speaker A: Definitely.

Speaker B: Um, my top place to play. Just from, like I said, when you're considering all factors.

Speaker A: Yeah, all, all good factors to, uh, to monitor there, if you're an athlete listening and trying to figure out where you're going, going next. So. All right, let's, let's transition here. We could talk pro hoops and markets around the world all day long. Maybe we'll do a second episode. Episode. But let's transition to, uh, the, the next phase, the entrepreneurial phase, the, the business phase. The, um, let's say post hoops phase. Right. So first, um, just talk, talk a little bit about that. Like, you know, the, the, the switch of the focus, if you will, from like fully basketball or as you mentioned before, it was always like, not just fully basketball was business and basketball and engineering, but really the main focus towards. Okay, basketball is not going to be a part of my life at some point very soon here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: When do I go all in and what am I going all in on?

Speaker B: Um, you know, I think it's. I'm a. I approach life in like, you can only make the best decision you can make with the information you have at any given moment. Right. It's all about life is all about choices, and you're making, you're making choices in each moment. So, um, from a business standpoint, right, Like, I've always stayed active. I've done different things like during my career with my free time. That's one thing about being a professional basketball player is you do have a lot of free time to work on things, like more than any other day job for sure. So I've always stayed active. Um, but you know, I'm older now and you know, my body just isn't, isn't doing what I wanted to do at times. You know, like uh, this was supposed to be like a bounce back season for me, for example, and I had two just unfortunate injuries that just. And it's just that those things weigh on you. I've been doing this 11 years and I did five years of college. So it becomes, it becomes like more work than like there is enjoyment. I uh, spent, you know, I spent like a significant portion of the last five seasons like, like rehab and different things. And so there's that, right? Like how much longer can I play at the level that I want to play at? I didn't set out to be a professional basketball player to play until I couldn't play anymore. I did it to uh, for the experience. I did it as I, There was a point early in my career where I just, I actually did decide to keep playing. I almost retired like my, after like my second season because that uh, was just, I just wasn't having the experience that I wanted to have. But I decided to go and really invest myself into basketball more. And but at that time when I did that, I wanted to be at the highest level that I could, right?

Speaker A: And

Speaker B: as I look at my career now, I have to ask myself, where's my career going to go? And with my network and my experience and my education, where could like I go with something else? And so like there's this like, you know, your basketball career, like no matter who you are, it diminishes and like, but like there's like a professional career that can like, that can grow. And so at a certain point the diminishing basketball career like or uh, the growing professional career outweighs the diminishing basketball career. And so for me I have to ask myself when that is. And you know, I just, I find myself asking myself that question more. Especially like just with the way circumstances have gone, the timing and the rapid pace of technology increasing and opportunities in technology and you know, some of the opportunities that I have in front of me off the court is a question that I, that I ask myself more often and more seriously. Between that, you know, my body assessing like my, my potential and then just like where my like my, my heart is at. It sounds silly, but, like, where's my mind and my heart? Like, what do I think about? And, you know, I think I used to think about basketball and training, like, obsessively. Like, my wife would tell you, like, I would be like, I can't miss my third workout today. And she was like, you worked out three times yesterday and the day before. And I would be like, I don't care. It's my workout. I can't. It's my job. Like, I obsessed over it. I don't obsess over it like I used to. Uh, and I think part of that is just. Just being tired, man. Like I said, just not just of, like, playing. It'd be one thing if I were playing and getting the enjoyment out of the work, but when you're just putting in the work and, like, the. You don't have the. You don't get to show it. It's just work. And like, that's not. That's not why I'm doing this.

Speaker A: Yeah. And. And props to you for just even having that awareness, too, because you explained it perfectly. But, you know, not. Not a lot of guys, um, or, or. Or girls that play pro have that other love or passion like, like that you've built and created for yourself the whole time. And so it's like, all right, well, they'll just kind of keep dragging it and dragging it and dragging it and playing, but at what cost? Right? And so, like, that. That other real life that you kind of talked about, like, uh, I'll be honest, that kind of has diminishing, marginal returns as well at some point, because there's going to be a point at which those relationships you have or the skill sets you have are not going to be as valuable anymore, and the opportunities that might present themselves now aren't going to be thereafter. I thought you explained that very well.

Speaker B: Um, my wife has been telling me, like, for the last few years, like, you know, okay, if you don't play basketball, like, what are you going to do? And, like, I'll tell her, like, I can't know that right now, because what is an option now is not going to be that there when I. If I decide to. To, uh, stop playing at a later time. So you can think about it. You should know your passions and explore your passions. You should know that your career will come to an end and that you need to do something else. And, I don't know, maybe start preparing yourself. You can take all kind of courses online, you can get degrees online, all types of things. To be prepared for that transition. But then also, to your point, like, timing is everything, so be prepared for those opportunities. But also know that, like, you won't be able to take advantage of them until you decide, like, that you're ready to take advantage of them.

Speaker A: Take that jump. Yep. Yeah, definitely. Um, so you talked about. Let's talk about for you. You talked about technology. Um, we talked a little bit more about, uh, before, about entrepreneurial, uh, spirit and AI. So share more about what you're doing now. You know, I know you launched a couple companies. You talked about travel before. Talk, um, about Spin, and talk about everything you're doing right now. And, uh, and let's get into that.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, we launched. So we launched a few companies. I mean, we launched on arrival in 2022. And, uh, we were doing personalized, like, travel recommendations or travel guides. So if you're going somewhere in the world like Seoul, we would have your information saved, your profile saved, and be able to recommend the best restaurants, coffee shops, bars, attractions based on all the things that we already know you like. I built an algorithm to do that, but that was before ChatGPT came out and we had investors and things would ask us, how are you going to scale this? Now, if I were to be pitching that today, they would just ask, why are you even wasting your time building this? Right. Because it's on everybody's phone. So we kind of like scrapped that idea, um, last year, although we learned a lot from it. And we helped a lot of people take amazing trips to all kind of places, from Asia to Europe to South Africa. I mean, we helped hundreds of people plan amazing trips. Um, it just wasn't something that we saw as a scalable solution anymore. Now we're focused on how can we, uh, like Wayne Gretzky would say, skate where the puck's going to be. So we're trying to get out in front of some of these technologies, and instead of these narrow solutions that are easily accomplished by just ChatGPT or an LLM, actually build solutions that deliver value to customers and now specifically to businesses. So Spin is our new company, and we're working on improving business travel for travelers, but for companies as well. And so, um, the hard part about building a technology company is that the great solutions only seem obvious in hindsight. It's really hard to figure out what a good solution looks like, because a good solution doesn't solve obvious problems. It solves problems that are not as obvious, but they are obvious after you've solved them. Right. So we're in this process right now where we're challenging ourselves to talk to as many people in this space as we can, to kind of learn from them and their experience in an industry that we don't have a lot of experience so that we can try to identify what are some of these big problems that people haven't thought to solve or ways that we can go about this differently that people haven't done. And that's really, really hard. I mean, it's just, literally I spend weeks of just talking to people all day about their experience. I mean, before this interview, I was, uh, on a call with a, uh, VP of sales at a company, just trying to understand where the opportunity lies.

Speaker A: That's awesome. And, and so for you, can you get, could you paint a picture of maybe someone listening, a perfect, um, client or customer, like that would use spin. So would it be, you know, maybe, um, I don't know, another technology, like any company or a sports team or somebody that has a lot of their salespeople traveling all the time. Is that like an ideal customer for you or.

Speaker B: Yeah. So the funny thing is, my answer today is different than what it would have been last week. But I think ideally, um, what we, where we see value right now is actually helping people with traveling sales teams. Um, we have identified that there's essentially no solutions that connect company sales data. So, like, think of your CRM with your actual travel decisions and your travel accounting. Now, there's plenty of solutions that can connect your accounting to your travel, and plenty of solutions that can connect your CRM to your accounting. But there's a missing link between people's actual business engine, their CRM, and the travel that's fueling that engine. And so we're kind of feeling out what it looks like to build a platform that would help inform travel decisions based on my actual business. Right? So my potential customers, their deal stages, deal sizes. Right. Now, I spoke with a guy from a publicly, uh, traded company this week, and they have to essentially, before every trip, analyze the potential deal value of that trip and the potential cost of that trip. And this is a publicly traded company and he's. They do it on Google sheets on a spreadsheet. So that looks like an opportunity to us. Again, I don't know when this episode is going to come out. It could be a completely different answer by the time this comes out. Because, uh, here's the thing. When you're at an early stage in a startup, and this is what people don't know about startups, and I've learned Over years is it's all about testing and validating. So I come up with this hypothesis right now. My hypothesis is that we benefit sales teams, but until I validate that that's real and that somebody will pay me for that, then it's just an idea and it doesn't turn into a real business until you validated that this is a problem and you have the solution that people are willing to pay you for.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Um, so where, um, you know, obviously being involved with the technology company, things as you mentioned, are changing rapidly. Where can uh, listeners find you or uh, maybe reach out to get in touch? And then also I guess what would be, um, you know, who would be someone that you'd be interested in speaking to? I've got listeners that might be heading up sales teams or might be looking to invest in certain technology companies. Are you guys raising money? I know you're recently an accelerator. Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker B: Yeah, so we're an accelerator at the University of Michigan right now called Desai. It's uh, for founders, so it's really helpful. But it's also validation that we are moving in the right direction. So we will be raising uh, funds soon. So if you're interested in investing in AI technology with real business applications that it's not just like a rapper, but real technology solutions that are improving, um, businesses that are, you know, real use cases and applications, then we should definitely talk. If you're a VP of sales or in finance at a company and you want better insight into your return on travel spend and better uh, proactive decisions around which trips to take, definitely reach out to us. And I would say the best way right now is just going to go on our website. We got a contact form on there website is just www.spin travel. Super easy. Not much on there now again because we're still, you know, identifying solutions. But if you think, you know, this sounds like something that you're dealing with, then definitely reach out, tell us a little bit more. We're in this phase right now where if you need a solution we can build, you know, specifically towards your needs, which is, uh, you know, a huge benefit to a company right now. So if you're looking for a technological solution and help you actually turn your sales travel into a tool and not just an expense, then you should definitely reach out to us.

Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, we'll make sure to put that website and all the contact stuff in the show notes and if uh, you're listening and you want To. You want to, uh, get involved, just reach out to me. I'm. I'm happy to connect. And, you know, we're. We're excited to follow the. Follow the career here of the next best thing in AI travel. Um, well, look, man, I. I appreciate you coming on. I'm sure we can talk for hours more about different topics, but, uh, the last thing I got for you here before we sign off, it's called the Sports business lightning round. I just shoot a handful of questions at you, and you hit me with the first thing that comes to your mind.

Speaker B: Okay. I'm not really good at these, but we'll see.

Speaker A: That's what everyone says. You'll crush it. I'm sure I make them easy. All right, what's your favorite color?

Speaker B: Blue.

Speaker A: Do you prefer coffee?

Speaker B: Michigan coffee.

Speaker A: Do you prefer pizza or pasta?

Speaker B: Pizza.

Speaker A: Would you rather be able to speak to all animals or speak four languages fluently, which she might already. I don't know.

Speaker B: Uh, four languages fluently. I dabble, but I don't know, I'm not fluent.

Speaker A: What's your favorite country outside the one you're in right now?

Speaker B: Italy.

Speaker A: What is one of your biggest strengths?

Speaker B: I'm a great learner. I can learn pretty much anything.

Speaker A: Who's one of the first people to really believe in you?

Speaker B: My mom.

Speaker A: What's one of your biggest fears?

Speaker B: Oh, I don't know. Uh, I don't. I don't really. I'm not. I don't. I don't want to say I'm not afraid of anything, but there's nothing that stands out as, like, a big fear for me.

Speaker A: All good. Uh, two more here. If you could have dinner and drinks with anyone in the world, someone who's dead or alive, who's one of the first people that pops into your mind?

Speaker B: That's crazy. Uh, shoot. Uh, Bill Gates. How about that?

Speaker A: And last one. If you could turn back time and talk to 18 year old Jordan, just tell him a few words, what would you tell him?

Speaker B: Have fun. That's it. It's gonna be a ride.

Speaker A: Love it, man. You crushed it. See, you're better than you thought.

Speaker B: Uh, you made it easy for me.

Speaker A: That was awesome, man. Well, look, I appreciate you. Um, and, uh, yeah, we'll have to link here soon. Whether it's on a basketball court or in a business. Business boardroom here soon.

Speaker B: All right, man. Yeah, it sounds good. Let me know.

Speaker A: All right. All right, brother.

Speaker B: All right. Talk to you.

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Balogy, a mobile app created by coaches for coaches. The Balogy Mobile app ah, makes it easy for you to effectively evaluate, manage and track overall skill development for your team. This is not just another software, it's a solution to help you scale your program expectations and principles in less time. The Balgy app is internationally available and used by some of the top programs in the US. Go to Balogy.com that's B A L L O G Y.com for more information. Thanks again for listening my friends. If you enjoyed the episode or if it brought you any value at all, it would mean the world to me if you could give it a rating and A on Apple Podcasts. If you share it on social media, make sure you tag me at Kevin Tarka. If there are any topics that you want me to dive into or any guests you'd love for me to have on the show, just shoot me a message and I will do my best to make it happen. Have an amazing day and hope to see you back here soon.