12: Rural Leadership Redefined | How a Small Town Girl Became Mayor

Karina, welcome to the podcast. I am so glad you're here. So happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Wonderful. You know, one of the things that I've been thinking about while making this show is that how many people who grew up in small towns, like we both did, um, we leave to build our careers somewhere else. And I think in many ways this podcast came about because of my own journey of leaving and coming home. And then I find again, what fascinates me are the ones that come back.

And you are one of those people who came back. And your story isn't really just simply about returning home. It's that you actually became one of the people who came home and helped to shape the community that you're from. So I'm hoping we can start there with that conversation.

Perfect. Um yeah, I I would say that probably 90% of my friends and family never thought I would leave. Um I had a great opportunity that was presented to me when I was in college. I hadn't even written my last uh exam.

Um we had a connection at Queen's Park. I got on a train, went for an interview, and was able to become a general assistant, which is just a clerical person, um, but it was on the political side. So I wasn't a bureaucrat. I was on the political side, and that was during the Harris years at Queen's Park.

So it was very dynamic. It was very um, there was a lot going on, and I learned a lot. And it's kind of when I started to get my feet wet there, I started to realize if you think government works slow from the outside, try being inside because I watched the politicians try to change policy and and put their own fingerprints on whatever they were trying to do. And there was so much pushback from the bureaucratic side and and it was frustrating.

And I watched that frustration and and yet, you know, I I looked at folks who are like, we don't understand what's going on. And and it was it was a huge learning curve for me. So I was so excited to be in the big city. So going from Lansdowne, little small town of you know, 600, 800 people, uh, off to Toronto and living in Blue Rest Village, I thought I had won the lottery.

Um, I was so excited to be there, took the subway to work every day, and um just some of the great people that I met and made lifelong connections with, um, but really understood that politics is a lot more than just policy and you know, getting your way. It's having respect from all sides, um, regardless of political stripe, um, but really wanting to make things better. Yeah. I think a lot of us who come from small towns, like we grow up with that message that we have to leave in order to have a career, that that's something that many of us have hear over and over, and then we do.

And I'm just curious, you know, what was that message for you? Like, what was that like growing up for you? Well, ironically, when I was in high school, I was destined for university. Um, I had a number of friends who were coming back from university who were struggling to find jobs.

This is like '94. Um, I'm dating myself. No, you're not. Um, but what it comes down to is my parents sitting me down and saying, okay, uh, whatever you decide to do, you better have a job at the end of it.

Um, and that sort of terror, and like, don't get me wrong, I lived in the best house with all the great support. And I never was told I couldn't do anything I put my mind to. However, I knew that I didn't want to disappoint anybody and not have a job at the end of it. Um, so strangely enough, I started an X-ray in ultrasound school.

Um, I am an empath and not good with people with in any sort of pain or blood or gore or anything like that. So um I was a Christmas graduate and I was at Mohawk College in Hamilton at the time. And um I avoided going to St. Lawrence College in Kingston because in high school, I was sort of conditioned to think you only did that if you couldn't leave home.

And I wasn't that person. I was gonna show everybody that I could leave and be successful. Being a Christmas graduate, I was like, I'm not coming home. There's no way.

So I actually stayed, I transferred into the business program at Mohawk College. And then one of the professors there said, What are you doing here? The best business colleges in Kingston. Aren't you from that area?

So I acquiesced and then transferred to St. Lawrence College in Kingston, um, where I took business administration, which was a three-year program at the time in marketing and sales. I was originally then there for accounting, but a marketing class, and my professor literally flipped a switch for me. And I knew that that I was destined for relationship building, sales, marketing, that sort of thing.

That was my niche. Um, and then uh my I had two placements in Toronto, um, both with banking sort of MasterCard was one, and then uh First Bank Direct, which was a division of M Banks, division of Bank Montreal. So I got a taste of the big city, and then the political thing was through a friend of a friend who knew that I needed a job and um they recommended me and I got the job. And so that's what took me there.

But it's it's funny, I never was told I needed to leave home. I guess I just never saw opportunity, as much opportunity in a small town because it wasn't there was no remote working at that point in time. Um, but it comes down to the fact that I knew that I wanted to do something that I wanted to do, but also wanted to make my parents proud and be a successful person, whatever that looked like. I just didn't realize what path would take me where I ended up and then ended back uh at home.

Well, that's interesting because again, you went to Queen's Park and then you had your career and you had that whole life that you had built there. You it was with your husband as well, and you had everything was really Toronto-based, and then you came back. And what brought you back? Real estate.

Um, and not just because I'm a mortgage broker in my real life that uh that's my real career that keeps me going. But um, my husband, uh, we were engaged at that point, and we were living in Toronto, and like a one-bedroom condo was like 220,000, and we ended up buying a 117-acre farm for 200. Um, so we had an opportunity to come back, and it was actually my husband who said to me, you know, I could live in Lansdown. And I remember looking at him in the car as we were coming down this way because my husband was from the other side of the province.

He was from Bruce County, so Lake Huron area. And uh I remember thinking, really? Uh okay. So we put an offer in on this farm, had a wonderful family who uh helped us immensely with that transaction in that they didn't ask for a down payment.

They didn't, we were just starting. We had nothing. We both had student debt, we both started in a bit of a hole, and they gave us an opportunity that wouldn't have necessarily ever happened in a large city. So um I definitely credit them for helping us sort of root uh back home.

Um, but they knew my family, they knew me. So they knew that I wasn't gonna run off to Mexico with their money or or not pay, and and uh that worked really, really well for us. Did coming home feel different than you expected? Um sort of because going back to your earlier question of what, you know, as far as leaving home and having opportunities, I kind of wanted a farm.

I grew up on a large dairy farm, but genetically I was not predisposed to what the expectation was. I wasn't a boy. Um, and it's funny because my dad has never been one of those people who has ever made me feel like I couldn't do anything. But I think they had a lot of friends, uh husbands and wives who worked alongside each other on a farm, and the women physically would break down, like just knees, shoulders.

It was hard on them because it wasn't just doing work in the barn or the field, they still were expected to do all the things. And I I think ultimately my dad didn't want to see me see that happen to me, but also in the way that our family farm was constructed, we had another side of the family that we farmed with for a century. So it was like it had it had branched out so far. Um, I had a brother, a younger brother, who ended up taking over the farm with my dad, and that was kind of the predestined path.

And so adding another body to the payroll wasn't really something he could wrap his head around. Plus, he wanted me to broaden my horizons and do all the things that maybe other family members couldn't do. Um, so I ended up um that whole X-ray ultrasound thing, it was just such an obscure path. And in what I was trying to tell my kids, I have a 20-year-old and a 17-year-old.

Even if you start on a path, it doesn't mean that's the ultimate goal in that you shouldn't not have goals. But if for some reason that path takes you somewhere where you didn't expect, that's okay. Because your path is your path. And there's no way, nobody's got a crystal ball.

So just go with it, learn, grow, make as many connections as you can. Relationships are everything. And so our expectation of our children isn't that you've got your life figured out by the time you're 20. Just figure out that it's okay to try new things and and broaden your horizons at every opportunity that you're presented.

Yeah, and I think that's kind of relevant to what I'm curious about next because you didn't really come home with the intention to get involved in politics. I don't think that was anything that was even in your crystal ball. And I'm curious at what point, you know, that it stopped being about coming home to be where you lived and sh shifted to being about feeling responsible for creating that community that you are part of. So when we came back, we came back in 2001.

And I was just starting my business then as a mortgage broker. So um I had a job offer at a bank. I was warned that, you know, there's there's a a short little box that goes around bankers. And if I really wanted to do something, that this is an opportunity to become a mortgage broker now.

I really didn't have, I didn't, I didn't have children at the time. There was only my husband and I. And it was like now or never. The opportunity's there, we're gonna take it.

And I must credit my husband for being extremely supportive at the time, saying, you know what, if you're gonna do it, just do it now. And so it comes down to that sort of window where the first window was about five years where I was working on my business. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, we better start having babies. Because, you know, I was almost 30 at the time, which is certainly not old.

But, you know, I remember one of my mom's friends saying, Oh, I can't imagine having babies at your age. And I was stunned because I was only 30. And uh, but in a time where they were having babies at 18, 19, it's it's a different concept for them. Anyways, so started having children, um, but we got involved in the local taxpayers' association because there was some unrest at the time.

And my husband and I both worked on that sort of volunteer thing and to try to better understand what was going on. And I don't know if we necessarily moved the needle much or what we did at the time. Honestly, my memory is very fuzzy about it, but it's so funny to me. I was at a fundraiser the other day in Getanachway at the Thousand Islands Boat Museum, and a lady that was involved with that came up to me and she said, You know, I've been meaning to tell you something.

And I said, Okay. And could have been anything, right? She's a taxpayer. So um, she's like, Yeah, I remember when we were working on the taxpayers' association, another lady said to me, she's she's gonna be mayor someday.

And I was sort of shocked because the lady who said that happened to be uh, she was my dentist when I was a child in the northern part of the municipality, and and she saw something and recognized that in me. And that was just out of the blue that this lady had passed that information along. And it's kind of like that full circle moment, right? Where you realize that other people see in you capability, ability, and and you know, kind of sit and smile and sit back and go, She's gonna do something someday, which is really, really flattering.

Yeah. And was there something that you saw in the community that really made you want to step forward to do that? I think that we all have this connection to where we live. And um, like I've always felt like there's always a thread that connected me back to Merrickville no matter where.

And I traveled and lived, I was gone for a long time before I came home. But when you come back, you wanna want to get involved. And was there something there that you were like, I feel a sense of connection or responsibility, or there's a, I don't know, some meaning behind the work in a deeper way? Um, I wish it was that simple in that I was inspired to get involved, but I'm gonna go back to something that I just said, which is when someone else sees your value and and urges you, because to be very truthful, I hadn't really contemplated running for office.

Um, but I had sort of an extreme event that sort of shifted my view. Um, our MP at the time, we were at a local event and he sort of grabbed my arm and took me aside and he says, You really need to run for mayor. And I was like, really? He's like, This is this is crazy.

Nothing's getting done. There's a lot of unrest, there's just constant fighting at the table, and it's not indicative of the value of your municipality that you live in, and they need a good leader, and you would be you'd be great at it. And I was like, at the time, I'm like, how much do you hate me? Because it was something that I hadn't contemplated because not that I I don't have a strong sense of self-worth, but it was more the fact that you think I can fix this.

Um, but then he had the MPP as well, come over, you know, come on over here, Steve. You tell her she's gotta run. And and he said the same thing. And then unfortunately, a week later, our MP at the time passed away very suddenly at his desk at the House of Commons and uh in Ottawa, and it was really devastating for the community because this person he lived and breathed politics.

Like he was so committed and so uh well respected by all political parties, um, despite political differences, everybody really respected him. So when he passed and he had put so much time and effort to helping our local uh riding to move forward and get things done, um, I was, I kind of thought, you know, if he thought that I could do this, I need to borrow that belief. Um, but more importantly, respect the fact that he gave so much in political service to the um, I don't want to say detriment to his family, but it was like, did we get the best of him or did his family get the best of him?

And it's so hard to make that balance. And after being mayor for almost eight years now, I realize that it is a balancing act and it's hard because in municipal politics, the pay isn't what you get at say an MP or an MPP's level. It's not quote unquote a full-time job, but it bloody well is. It's a full-time job.

Um, as I'm answering Facebook messages at 10 o'clock at night for somebody who's upset about roadside mowing, let's say. Yeah. Um, these these sorts of things, you you sort of take a step back and go, you know, you don't do this for the money. And and I don't want to say that I'm not well paid.

I know there's a lot of other municipalities that don't pay their mayors or their counselors as well as we do in our municipality. So I am grateful for that. But at the same time, you do it because you love it and you do it because you want to make a difference in your community. And the other thing you have to realize is that it's not you doing anything.

It's us. It's the council that you have and it's the team that you have built around you. And I say built in that in our own municipality, we went through a lot of organizational change after I first got elected. People had been really, really under stress for a long time because of all of the volatility um at the council table.

So, you know, there was that to get through. I was a baby mayor, brand new, didn't know what I was doing, never sat on council. So I was pretty big big for my britches. Like I'm like, I'm gonna be the mayor.

Oh dear, I'm the mayor. Now I've got to figure this out. So, you know, I was very fortunate. I had some other um municipal employees and other jurisdictions who are super helpful to me to sort of guide me on the procedural stuff, policy, some of the challenges.

If I had any questions, they were willing to take my call. Because at the time uh we had lost our CAO in the municipality. So that's kind of the the link between council and and the actual um workers within the municipality and not having that person that I could rely on was a bit scary because I was like, I don't want to screw this up. So um, because of my, I guess, previous training or my personality or whatever, I made good relationships with other people that weren't necessarily obligated to help me at all.

And they did so willingly, and I still call those people friends to this day to help me avoid some pitfalls and some potholes and whatever else that might have come along. So um yeah, it was it was an interesting transition to go from just a resident who saw that I was embarrassed by what had happened and uh the other iron ironic thing that happened. Uh and I didn't even realize the connection until probably a few years into my first term. But I ran for student government president.

Well, I ran for VP student life at the college. Uh so this is would have been 92. And I did it because someone uh decided that this student council of the day would put a picture in the paper of all of them together giving the finger. And I was I was so angry at the time as a student at the college.

I marched up to the student council office and I said, Whose idea was this? And the lady who um was the staff member who helped run the student government office, she's like, I'll I'll get you, um, I'll get you the student government president. And I I went to him and I said, We have employers that want to employ us as graduates, and this is what is representing us. This is not okay.

And so that changed my trajectory to say, uh, I don't want to be represented by that. I'm gonna run. So I ran for V VP student life and I was successful, and then I ended up being student government president. So it's the same thing, it was parallel to what I was faced with in my own community.

Yeah. And and funny enough, I I never made that connection until a few years later, and it's because I came across somebody who I served with in that um student government. And she's like, you know, it's pretty much the same thing, isn't it? And I was like, Oh yeah, it was so um, you know, fast forward to the election of 2018 and uh was able to be elected and was able to turn things around.

No, you don't turn it around on a dime, it didn't happen overnight, but uh we had a goal to make things better, and I think we actually did. Yeah. And I think one of the interesting things, and we've said it before on the show, is that nobody moves to a small town to be invisible because it's very hard to be invisible in a small town. And then I think the most public thing you possibly can do is run for office.

And there is a lot of risk with that because you are you're a member of your community, you're a businesswoman within the community, you're highly respected, you go you've deep roots within the community, and then you're stepping into this very public position where people can criticize, they will criticize. How did that feel? Like what what how did you navigate that? Well, I guess if you go into the job knowing that a you're not perfect and no one is, you've got to figure out what needs to be done because you can go in with your own set of we need to upgrade this road, we need to put in this new park, and we need to get rid of this building or or what have you, the whatever your laundry list is.

And then you get in there and then you really start digging into the details of why this road hasn't been done or why we still have this building, or why we can't put the park in place, or we have to put it off for a few more years because this is what the financial plan is. So, so everybody goes in naive, including me. I and and that's not a criticism of anyone who wants to get involved in municipal politics, because unless you're a deep diver, and there's only one other person that I know who spent like four years leading up to running for a mayor position, who literally went to every meeting, read every report, and really and full disclosure, I wasn't that person.

Um, but once You get in there and you start reading the reports and you start getting the background of the whys, you're like, oh, that was a decent decision because of X, Y, and Z. Um, and I think that's the other thing. If if people want to run for these positions, the tough part aren't the meetings. The tough part isn't, you know, taking criticism from other people.

It's the fact that you have to really start to understand things you may not have any background in whatsoever. So all of a sudden I become a ditching expert. Um, I become a municipal drain expert. I bec I say expert, but it's really, you know, jack of all trades, master, master of none.

Yeah. Um, but uh you start to learn about fleet, fire trucks, dump trucks, snowplows, all of the sexy things that nobody really wants to think about and why are they really important? Well, the difference between this snowplow and that snowplow and what we can do with this um machine versus that machine, it it's kind of funny when I say it now because it is the most unglamorous type stuff, but it's the stuff that makes our communities work. So when folks say they, well, you're doing a terrible job, or you're at the grocery store and somebody corners you.

I always believe that a smile and listening is the most disarming way to because some people just want to be heard and they think that they know better or they think that their opinion is is more correct than anyone else's, and that's okay. We all have our own uh frame of reference, and some of us are really good at um doing the deep dives and finding out all the details, and then there's other people who saw an article on social media or somebody's comment on social media, and then all of a sudden that's their opinion.

Um, so I always try to come from the point of view that there's always an answer. It may not be the answer you want to hear, but it's an answer nonetheless. And if there's something that we can do better, well, let's work together to make it better. I don't have all the answers.

I know that, which is why we have a council who all come to the table with different backgrounds and different points of view. And it's so important in municipal government because, you know, typically municipal government was an old retired guy's job. Oh, yes. And and I I've been very fortunate.

I was looking at a photo the other day that we've actually had quite a few women involved. And, you know, my mentor who got me into politics all those years ago was one of the first women to sit on our local council and then became mayor or Reeve at the time. Um, but yeah, there's there's always going to be people that criticize what you do. Um, but the simplest answer is if you think you can do better, you should put your name in the in the ring.

I think I've got two very quick two questions that I want to follow up with this one because that's a very fascinating. For me, I'm really curious about you going from a public position in the sense of like you run your business and that and you're known in the community to stepping out as mayor. And how what when you walk out your front door, right? You know you're going to get recognized and you know that people are going to stop you and you know, has that changed how you approach entering your community?

Well, if anybody sees me in the grocery store, they will probably tell you that I look like just like everyone else. Like I don't, I don't put on errors, like I don't go out and make sure that my makeup's always done or my hair's always done half the time. I'm in a ponytail. I don't take myself seriously, so seriously that I need to look a certain way in order to put out a certain image.

Right. Um, I'm a professional person, whether I'm wearing makeup, whether my hair's done, whether I got a dress on or not. Um, but I think that also um speaks to my ego. I I don't need to be perceived as the most, you know, staunch business suit kind of person.

I'm I hope that I'm always viewed as approachable. Um I am definitely a confident person. I'm not, I don't take myself so seriously that I need to have certain persona. But, you know, as far as walking out, I'm never fearful of going to the grocery store or the hardware store or be going upstreet in Ganonakwe because often I get to meet family and friends that I haven't seen for a while.

Um, but ironically, uh since becoming mayor, I do see myself pulling back from social media. Not because I'm afraid to put things out, but I used to be like the social media queen. I was posting where we were going for dinner, or we went on this road trip, or I was out with friends. And and every time you post on social media, there's that opportunity to criticize, and not with full information, like the snapshot of you and your family at dinner, or you went to such and such a park and in Picton or whatever.

Um, you know, it's amazing what people say. And and most recently, the municipality has its own social media page, and and I forget what we posted something that uh an award ceremony um that we posted and it was a good news story. And then, you know, someone's comment, you know, the may per and the sorry, the mayor is incompetent. And that was the the comment.

And so, you know, there's no context context in that. It's like, okay, uh if you believe that the mayor's incompetent, okay, but but why? You know, and and I don't look at that as personal criticism. I look at that as an opportunity to sit down and talk to somebody and and tell me what it is you think I'm incompetent at.

I my ego is not tied up in this job. I know I'm a good person. I have the best of intentions. Am I perfect?

Not a close, not even close, not close at all. Um, but I do my best and I have the best interest of my community at heart, and that's why I'm doing this. But if you think that I'm really on the wrong track, explain to me why. I I would value that sort of critique.

Constructive criticism is feedback. And and, you know, uh someone explained this to me a long time ago. Feedback is feedback, it's neither positive nor negative, it's how you take it. So I guess I always look at it as an opportunity to grow and learn.

Whether I agree with them or not, that remains to be seen. But most of the time, most of the people who are making those comments have never actually physically face-to-face met me or had a conversation with me. So you know, I I take that with a grain of salt. Yeah.

You have been very um, I don't want to say vocal, but is I think is rooted in you the importance of representation at the table that goes beyond just what we typically see in rural communities and politics, which again is older, tends to be very white males, retirees, and they're, you know, that's and no criticism again, it's just what it has been, but it isn't necessarily what it represents our communities as they're changing because small communities change as well. And you also are very much an opponent of seeing women sitting at the table.

Absolutely. Yeah. What is it that really is sparking that so much for you, other than the obvious? But what is it?

Yes. So um I was raised by strong women, and I say women, not just my mother. My mother is very, she taught me how to be independent, pay my own bills, not look to anyone else to to drive my life like I was the master of my own destiny. And if you want to do something, then go and work hard and get it done.

Um, and my family life growing up on a farm, you do you're a veterinarian, you're an accountant, you're a mechanic, you're uh, you know, you're all these things. So uh you sort of figure it out as you go. Um, but when I say that I was raised by strong women, I'm talking about a women, uh women who made up the community and were the community champions. And the one that I referred to earlier, Joanne, um, that was my mom's best friend at one point, and she was very involved politically.

So I remember putting up signs and going to campaign things with my uh my mom's friend as well as my parents at an early age. And so we talked, I and I probably didn't even realize it at the time, but there was a lot of talk at the dinner table every night about the world and our community and and everything in between. So when you have the opportunity to listen to this sort of you know, road discussion, or um, you know, why are they putting up a new municipal office building like this is crazy and all that sort of thing, that sort of gets ingrained to you in you.

But there's all these women who saw the need in our community, Joanne being one of them. So before Joanne ever ran for municipal government, and I believe she was the first woman uh member of our council in the front of Leeds and Lansdown. But she there was five of them, and I think out of the five, there was either three or four women that were the champions to build a community center. And by sheer will, they raised the funds.

And it was, I think, Winterio at the time who gave us the rest of the funds and they built a community center, which then became the municipal office, it became the library, it became everything, it became that community hub. And and if that woman decided she was going to do something, there was nothing stopping her. Um, but there's all these other women who were alongside of her, linking arms, and those were my mom's friends as well. So I look at all those women who did what they needed to do because it was the right thing for the community.

Those are the examples that I try to live into. Um, and some of those women aren't here anymore. Um, but I still am indelibly marked by what they did, watching them as a kid. And then when I came back and started my own family, seeing them around, and they were very supportive of me then.

But then when I went to actually run for municipal government, they were like big cheerleaders and super happy that I put my name forward. So having that support, you know, those people are cheering you on is really important. But the big thing was that Joanne ran for council one and then became the Reeve in a time where women didn't sit at the table at all. So sometimes you need to see yourself sitting at a table in someone else to go, oh, I could do that.

Yeah, there's no reason I can't do that. And and funny enough, even though the whole farm thing with my brother, you know, him taking over the farm rather than me, it wasn't that I didn't have the ability to do it. It's just I think it was more complicated and convoluted with family dynamics. But my family never looked at me and said, Well, your girl, you you can only do this.

You know, that never was a thing at our house. Um, but I think having examples of strong women in your community and people who are willing to do what they need to do in order to get things done. I just like, you know what, I'm not gonna wait around for someone else to do this. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do it.

And so those are the, those are the ladies that inspired me as a child. But also I knew that I had a safe space and a safe place to fall. If Toronto didn't work out, I knew I could come home. I wasn't coming home because I wasn't ever going to be a failure.

I was gonna work my way through. And even when I had my setbacks, I just kept finding finding my path and and I ended up where I was supposed to be. Yeah. Who do you hope still finds her way to the table?

People of every race, denomination, whatever you want to call it. I a divert a diverse table is so important. And I think about when I first came to the county council table. So for those who are listening who don't understand um the way municipal government works in Ontario, there's some places that have lower tier government and upper tier government.

So as the mayor of the Township of Leeds and the Thousand Islands, I am also obligated to sit at the county council table as a representative of our municipality, but to make decisions for the United Counties of Leeds and Grenville as a whole, which I am consequently also now warden of. So I'm sort of the mayor of the mayors, if you will. Um and so all of a sudden it's a different level of government. So it's not just roads and parks and buildings that you're taking care of at the lower tier, you're taking care of paramedic service, you're taking care of child care, you're you're um dealing with housing, community housing, uh provincial offenses, all a whole raft of things, let alone county roads and all the other stuff.

Um, so it's really you, you're what's the word I'm looking for, you expand your knowledge base in a huge way. And so having women at the table, expanding that knowledge base, but also the perspective that we bring is so critical because when we started uh at the county table, there were three women, I say started in 2018. There's three other women, and one of those women had been on county council on her own with nine other men. And she was a retiree, super smart lady, wonderful human, crazy um accomplished.

She's currently uh almost done her term as the um as the president of the Association of Municipalities Ontario. So she was a great mentor when I started at County Council. And then I have the other mayor uh who's close by to where we're doing the podcast in North Brenville, um, Nancy Peckford, and us three ladies had very different perspectives. Um, Nancy still has had children, I think, that were still using before and after school care at the time.

My kids had been out of that because my kids were 12 and 9 when I started. But it wasn't long ago that I needed child care and understood the importance of why accessibility to that means the difference between women or men or families in general, being able to go to work and then subsequently pay taxes and contribute back to the community. So um I feel like I'm bashing on retired old guys, but that's not that's not what I'm doing. It's just their frame of reference is different than someone who's living it or has lived it recently.

So when you ask about people at the table and what I want to see, I want to see people who are starting their families, or maybe they're a young couple that are just starting out in our community, but they have the flexibility in their day-to-day job to be able to contribute at the table because there is, as a counselor, it's not as um what's the word I'm looking at? Your commitment level is different at a council level. As a mayor, there is a lot more to do, especially since you have the county level as well.

But there's lots of people who do these jobs and have full-time jobs on the side. Like I still run my business. I'm lucky to have staff that help me keep my business moving in a way. Um, shout out to Lisa, who's on Matt Leave and who I'm treasurer every day.

Um, and I look forward to her have it coming back and Krista, who's filling in for her. Because if if it weren't for those people, I wouldn't be able to serve my community and do the job that I do because they let my business not fall apart. And I can't afford to do that because the mayor pay, the county counselor pay, while reasonable, it's not, it's certainly not keeping me moving in the trajectory that I was used to before as a small business owner. So it's important to me because at the next election, I may not get re-elected, in which case I have to go back to my regular job so I can support my family.

Yeah. Um, but having different points of view at the county council table and the local lower lower tier municipality is so critical because, you know, someone might think, well, we don't need a park there. And it's like, well, no, because I live in that area and I've got to travel half an hour to take my kids to the park. You know, there's a park here, but that's the closest one.

And and there's so many young families. This is something that attracts people is to be able to, you know, go outside, be outside with their children if they don't have a big backyard or what have you. It's little nuances. It's the small things that make a big difference in small communities.

Yeah, I think it's true. And I also think that for so many of us who come back, you know, we think about coming home because I came home because one of the main reasons I wanted to raise my daughter here that was a really important to me that she had that type of a childhood. So that was a big vision for that. And I think if we really want to get more people, young people or younger people sitting at the table, we want the different perspectives, then we need them to come home or we need them to stay, which means in many ways that we need to be can building communities that attract them and keep them.

And how do you vision that? Honestly, you can build all the parks, have the best roads, have the best houses. It's how we treat people. Yeah.

It's the bottom line. And in a world that is so divided over politics mainly, I would say it's up to us. It's up to us as local members of the community to wrap our arms around the new people that choose to live there. And it might because they might be living there because it's what they can afford.

But it doesn't mean that we can't make it the best possible place for them to live, work, and raise a family. But that's up to the community. And so, you know, the community that I grew up in looks different now than it did 40 years ago, for sure. And that's not a critique.

Um, it's just life changes, needs change. Uh the way people raise their families have has changed. But it's whether or not you speak to your neighbor, it's whether or not you smile at somebody coming into the coffee shop, like I did here in Merrickville this morning, as I was at the village bean, and a family came in and they were soaked to the skin because it was raining here this morning, and I could tell they were tourists, and I just looked up and smiled, and he kind of was taken back.

The father was, and I said, Hello, good to see you. And that's all it was. And then, you know, they were bringing their family in for breakfast, and it's how we treat people, it's whether the and it's the simplest thing. It could be, you know, your kids are going to the local soccer um matches and you see a family that nobody's really around talking to.

You go and introduce yourself. Oh, which one's yours? You know, oh, my kid is the one in the in the blue shoes or whatever, and and just make a connection. It doesn't mean you have to become best of friends.

It means that people need to think that they're not outsiders in their own community. And that is up to us to make sure that that happens. Yeah, we talked about that on a past episode where I really feel that we're uh there's a level of hospitality that is necessary in a small community and that we're all stewards of this community. And that's how we show up on the street, whether we're sitting in positions of pop power or not, or we're just the average person living in a community, we shape what that community becomes by how we treat others around us.

Absolutely. And I think that uh animosity and negativity, if you match that energy, that's what propagates. So, you know, it may sound a little frou-frou to some of the listeners, but I believe the energy you put out there, if it's negative to begin with, that's what you get back. So I do try every single day to try to realize that I am very blessed and I'm very fortunate, A, to live where I do, be able to have a business that supports my family, that we can live a relatively comfortable life.

My kids are not scared, you know, as far as locking doors and stuff, if if I didn't lock my door and I went to the store, I'm not worried about coming back to mayhem. Um, you know, and that sort of safety is a big deal. And maybe that's Pollyanna of me to think that that still does exist. But going back to my first comment, it's you get back what you put out.

So if you think that you're gonna get robbed or you're going to be accosted on the street, that usually you you bring that energy and that's what you get back. So I try really hard to be as pleasant and as positive as possible, regardless of the day that I'm having, because it often changes the trajectory of my day if I choose to focus on the positive rather than the negative, because there's so much negativity in the world and the craziness that goes on in, you know, the news.

And the news being a 24-hour news cycle, it's way different than it used to be. People rely upon social media to get their facts, which isn't always very factual, and then it just spins and takes on a life of its own. So um I think that's so important that the human connection that we have within our community is paramount to building a community. That's inclusive, but also welcoming and makes people want to stay here.

And let's ride that positive frame for a second because I'm wondering about when you think about the next generation of leadership in small towns, what gives you the most hope? Well, I speak at grade 12 and grade eight graduations every year. That was part of the deal as the mayor. And it's my one of my most favorite things to do because I get to see all these kids that are just like, oh, I just got to get through graduation, you know.

But often I tell them to leave. I say, go, go travel, see what's going on. And if you can't find something that excites you, whether it's painting, whether it's um military service, whether it's, you know, working as a welder down at the local welding shop. Um, you know, do something that you are jazzed about.

Even if it's not exactly where you think you want to end up, just do something. Don't expect anybody to hand anything to you. But I look at these young people who are sitting sort of on the cusp because the other cool part for me is it's in the high school that I graduated from, where I thought I was going to become an X-ray and ultrasound tech. You know, I had it all figured out.

I had nothing figured out. But leaving home made me appreciate home that much more. I never understood the value of that community piece until I left. So I know that some of the teachers were like, Why are you telling everybody to leave?

And I said, Because they become better community members, because they truly appreciate what we have. But more importantly, they have that real world experience where it's like, oh, home's pretty cool. And I live in one of the most beautiful parts, like eastern Ontario in general, is way undervalued. Oh, yeah.

It's we we are so fortunate to live where we do. You're here on the Rideau Canal, you know, and UNESCO World Heritage Site. I live in the Front Neck Arch Biosphere down on the St. Lawrence River, the straw for all the great lakes to go out to the ocean.

And and then everything between, we have provincial parks, and we have such a cool geographical area and topographically, like you've got the Canadian Shield and all the other stuff. We're so fortunate to live where we do. And um real estate is comparatively reasonable. I know it's definitely jumped up since COVID.

Um, but the reality is you can potentially buy a house still here as a young person. Um, maybe you need a partner to do that. However, um, you know, you can put down some roots and you can, you know, volunteer at with the Lions Club at the local Merrickville fair or the Lansdowne Fair or what have you. You know, some of these fairs, I know Lansdowne's been 162 years.

Like these, these, you know, maybe in the grand scheme of things are insignificant events, but they're significant to those communities and who they bring in and the people that come back every year just so that they can run into family and friends is the coolest thing. Um, and so I just look at small towns are where it's at because we're where I live, I'm 25 minutes to Kingston. I can get the big city stuff that I need. And we're what, an hour and a half to Ottawa, to the airport.

If I want to, I can brave going to Toronto Airport. It's three plus hours, and then I can be in Montreal for in less than three. So we sort of live in this perfect little bubble where we can be to all the major places we want to be. And the Thousand Islands Bridge is in my municipality.

If I want to head to the states, I can do that with little to no effort. Um, so you know, I think we have the best of everything to offer. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to close with this today, and we think about this as the kind of the our our last part of the conversation.

If somebody's listening today and they are someone who loves our community deeply and they've never imagined themselves, however, taking on a bigger role within it, what would you hope that they take away from your story? There's no limitation to who can do this job. It's just a willingness to learn. And if you don't, if you come in thinking you already know everything, please don't put your name in.

Please don't. Because I thought I knew more than I did. I certainly didn't come in with the attitude that I've got all this figured out. I did come in with an open mind to try to learn more to better understand things.

If you don't come in with that mindset that, yeah, there's some things I want to do and some things I want, you know, some files I want to move ahead, whether it be planning, whether it be roads, whether it be what have you, if you're not willing to concede that you know very little and that, oh, this is great. This is really interesting. I want to know more. I want to talk to the director of planning so that I understand zoning amendments.

It's the, as I said earlier in the podcast, it's the most unsexy thing, but it's stuff that means something that's important so that people can build build houses or businesses in your community. And you get to be part of that. That's the really cool thing. So um come in with the open heart, the open mind, and the willingness to learn.

And anybody can do this job. And if you really do want to make a positive change in your community, we would love to have any of you sitting at the table. Uh do you think that 16 year old you would be proud of you now? Yeah.

I think she would be. I think our communities are pretty proud of you too. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

This has been such a lovely conversation, and I deeply appreciate it. And uh I just, yeah, thank you for very much for this. Thank you.