The 30-Second Trick That Gets You Out of Fight-or-Flight: Confidence, Nerves & Speaking Up feat. Savanna Madden

Speaker A: Hey, I'm Amy M. Atkinson and it wasn't all that long ago that I lacked the confidence to focus on m growing my online business. Fast forward past many failed attempts and lessons learned and you'll see the business I have today. This podcast gives you all the tried and tested ways to grow your business through social media and digital marketing. You'll hear all my home truths and challenges, but also how to navigate them. It's time to get you seen, so let's get started. Hello everybody and welcome to, uh, this, this. I can't even do the introduction. That's great, isn't it? We're going really well and welcome to this month's M podcast episode. I have got the beautiful Savannah Madden on, um with me today and she is a confidence and speaking coach for female founders. Drawing on, drawing on, um, decades of performance training, vocal work and somatic techniques, she helps women build the confidence to speak on stages, go on podcasts so they can become known for their expertise and attract the clients they want. She's also the founder of Madden Theatre Arts, an award winning performing arts business in Hartford, SHLO and the host of the Reclaim your voice podcast. Welcome to.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for having me, Amy.

Speaker A: Are you ready for fun? And don't worry about you if you mess up your words because I already have done that.

Speaker B: Uh, honestly, just before we started recording, I was saying to you that I've just been with my 2 year old all morning, so I'm like, change gear, change gear.

Speaker A: So tell us about yourself, tell us about your story, your journey, all of the things.

Speaker B: Gosh, where to start? I'll try not to go on too much because I just love talking, especially on podcasts. It's a very, very much feel like my natural habitat. Um, so yeah, I trained as a performer in my, in my younger years, shall we say. And then I worked as a performer, as an actor predominantly and a presenter. I also sang and danced as well. It was incredible. Um, and then I lost my voice. About 10 years ago I was diagnosed with vocal nodules. So I had little cysts growing on my vocal folds, which didn't allow my vocal folds to vibrate together efficiently. So literally over a period of a few months, I completely lost my voice. And I was super, super fortunate that I had access to speech therapy through the NHS and um, was paired with an incredible therapist who supported me with lifestyle changes, different exercises to do to rehabilitate my voice essentially. And I had been working for lots of different performing arts organizations at that point. And through my recovery, I Just realized that actually I don't think I need to work for all these people. I could open my own theater school, you know, as you do. Oh yeah, I could do that. Um, but I had been managing. Yeah and I would just, you know, course I can. I um, had been managing an acting studio. Prior to that I'd also managed another theatre school in the city that I was living in. So I had loads of the back end work experience if you like. And also the, the front facing doing the actual coaching. Uh, I decided to start that theatre school and um, that was back in 2019. It survived the pandemic and I've grown and scaled that so now I have a team of 10 people running that business and that's freed me up to be able to coach adults with their confidence in speaking. So my theatre school is predominantly acting and public speaking. Uh, we also teach singing. Um, but even though I originated from a very dance heavy background, we don't actually teach dance at my theatre school. It's very much acting and um, uh, public speaking and singing. So very much voice, voice work. Um, and I just kept noticing that there were so many adults that are struggling ah, with the same thing, managing their confidence, um, needing to speak in, in certain environments and not just not having the confidence or the strategies to be able to achieve that. And a lot of my voice loss, as much as it came from being burnt out and, and overworked. I'd also left my ex husband at the time. It was sort of 18 months afterwards that I got my diagnosis, I'd left him. And there were so many reasons for that marriage to end. But when I was having my speech therapy it was so interesting that it was a medical professional that said to me that it was a trauma response as well from everything that we had talked about. She was basically asking me lots of really, really useful questions to help her build a picture of what my lifestyle looked like. And I had been really like silenced and squashed and dismissed in that relationship and I just was made to feel like my opinions didn't matter, my voice didn't matter, that I wasn't worth listening to. And although lots of people haven't experienced that same thing that I have, they probably resonate with that to some degree through a different experience. And I just, my little catchphrase is we just can't have it. We just can't have that. You know, we can't have people with loads of amazing things to say and expertise to share feeling like they can't share it because maybe just one person, maybe more than one person has, make them feel like their views aren't good enough to share. And so that's what a part of my mission is to amplify, um, people, give them the confidence to speak and share their message and their expertise so that other people can benefit from it essentially, and also that they can grow in their confidence.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. What did it actually feel like to have those nodules? So was she basically saying they were developed? Wait, that's another question. Let me come on to that in a second. So what did it feel like?

Speaker B: Not a sore throat, no, it's like you literally can't produce or project your voice at all. So there's a bit of a difference between voice production and voice projecting your voice. And so when you produce your voice, ah, process has to happen where obviously you breathe in and then as you exhale, there's a process that happens where your vocal folds are vibrating together. And because there were all these little bumps on my vocal folds, they literally couldn't vibrate. And it's just something that obviously we all just take for granted because we just speak all day every day, don't we? And, um, because that motion, that process couldn't physically happen, I kind of like sounded a bit like this. So I sounded like I had a really croaky voice and a really sore throat all of the time. Um, but there was a point where I was on complete voice rest where I wasn't allowed to talk at all. And then after building up from that, I then used like a little Britney mic when I was teaching just to amplify, um, my voice slightly so that I never had to speak any louder than a normal register, if you like. But yeah, it just felt really restricted, uh, really frustrating, um, that you can't articulate what you want to say. And it was a lot of time spent alone, um, because I couldn't speak so I couldn't go to work and I was self employed and there were just so many additional layers and I was already struggling financially from getting divorced, so, and moving, I moved countries. I completely packed up my life that I built with my husband and went and created a brand new life. And I think it was once I was starting to get into a rhythm, albeit a working seven days a week rhythm. Um, that's a whole nother story, um, you know, uh, that things started to worsen because that kind of got out of the fight and flight mode and the survival mode. But because my body had gone, uh, a little bit, then everything else started to manifest. So, yeah, it was really lonely and frustrating and very restrictive and, um, not so much painful, but, yeah, just quite, quite annoying.

Speaker A: That is absolutely mad. What, what happens in our life to silence, huh? Us. I don't have the same story with, like, husbands or partners, more friends, because I was 12. So you. I called him my boyfriend, but I was 12 years old. But I can remember, like teeny, tiny stories, teeny tiny moments of me as a kid, basically showing that I wasn't good enough. Um, and I'm going to go into detail with a couple of them because I think it is helpful for people to reflect back and think, why, why am I like this? Why is this happening? So I can remember, like, my parents lived in a close, so there were 12 houses, I think, in this close. And all of the kids were roughly about the same age, give or take a couple of years. And we would all cycle round up and down the hills, up and down the close, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there was a new girl, she was called Amy as well. She moved in. And, um, I can remember one of the boys who. He was actually a year younger than me, not that that's really relevant to the story, but he said, oh, it's pretty, Amy. You're ugly, Amy. And he literally looked at me when he said, you're ugly, Amy. Like, I needed that context. And everyone, like, uh, everyone really then cycled over to Amy's, who she was then getting her bike out of the garage to then come and join us all. So that teeny tiny moment then made me feel not good enough. And then as things go on and happen in life, it does quieten you, it does dampen you, it does stop you from showing up and doing the things that you want to and should be doing.

Speaker B: It definitely does. And, um, I think it's actually more common for experiences that have happened in your childhood to then follow you into adulthood, because you either haven't had the capacity, the vocabulary, the support, or whatever your experience is, you haven't had the ability to deal with that situation. So as I say, it's then like followed you into adulthood and it still keeps cropping up. I would say that the people that I work with, more often than not, it's a childhood thing that is usually stopping them. And as I said at the beginning, it might be that one person that they're worried about. And don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit here for a second and say that I've got it all figured out. I only started talking about this story within the last 12 months because I was worried what my ex husband would think about me talking about this. And I'm not throwing any shade at him. I, I'm just talking about what happened to me. He just happens to be a part of that story. And if there was, um, you know, if I needed to or felt it was going to be helpful to like, really delve back into loads of my childhood history, I imagine we probably find a few other things that are probably added to my experience too, because it's just so, it's just so common. We, we grew up in a time where we didn't have loads of like, safeguarding and, and loads of additional support. All our parents were just doing their absolute best with the information that they had. And we're now. I was gonna say growing up in an era. Well, I suppose I've still got quite a lot of growing up, but, um, you know, we're living in an era. We're living in an era and we're both parents supporting young people. We're living in this era now where there's so much more information, there's so much more support. We know that we should be using different types of language with our young people. And obviously I work with young people in my other business. I take on quite a big mentoring role there. Um, and we work with lots of students with lots of additional needs and lots of sensory needs. And you know, it's all about working with that person individually depending on what their individual needs are, are. And yeah, I just think that lots of people of our generation, our age, we've got lots of stuff that happened in our childhood that, that follows us into adulthood for sure.

Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like it. That is almost normal, don't you feel?

Speaker B: I definitely think it is, yeah.

Speaker A: Our generation are quite a pivotal generation because we're all the ones that are breaking the cycle. We're so aware of the generations of what we're being taught and what's being said and we're the ones that are like, almost at that point where we're not tolerating it anymore. So it's a really weird place to be.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're the generation where we had mobile phones when we were younger, but not when we were teenagers. Like, I think I got my first phone when I was like 16. Um, my brother was about the same age maybe, and he's about four years older than me. And like, I remember getting Facebook when I was traveling on my gap year. Um, and I was communicating with my parents via email. I did have A phone, and I was Skyping them, you know. Um, yeah, yeah, my space msn. You know, I was a teenager when I was using MSN. I was probably 13, 14, going home after school on the, uh, landing computer, talking to the boys in my class.

Speaker A: Yeah, so true, so true. Right, we're going off topic. I'm gonna.

Speaker B: Anyway. I was gonna say, anyway.

Speaker A: So you losing your voice, it was a bit. I'm gonna just call that out. But is there, is there things that you have learned from that?

Speaker B: Uh. Oh my gosh. So much it's, it's taught me that I am absolutely, I'm so resilient and that. And I think that I was already toughened up, for want of a better word, when I was at performing arts college. That's a baptism of fire if, uh, if, uh, no one is familiar with, um, performing arts training. Um, so. But this was like a complete different kettle of fish. And I matured really, really quickly in that time as well. So I was 27, 28, so, you know, really young to be getting divorced as well. Um, and yes, it taught me so much about myself. It taught me that I'm really resilient and that I can do, I can really do anything. I can come back from the, the depths of despair. Um, and like, when you really hit that rock bottom, which I'm sure many people have had another, you know, some sort of similar situation where they've really been somewhere that is not feeling good at all and had to rebuild themselves. And don't get me wrong, I had a lot of support. I'm really lucky. I've got really great parents, fantastic friends, and I went on to meet an incredible man that I'm still with now and we've got a little boy together. Um, and so, you know, I did have loads of support, but I had to do a lot of it by myself as well. Because you're the only person that can change your life, right? And when I was diagnosed with nodules, I was like, uh, is this it? Like, am I just going to work for loads of other people, be bossed around, not be communicated with in a very supportive way? Not every company I work for, but quite a few of them were not very supportive. Um, and I just think to myself, I started a brand new business a year before the pandemic hit, um, with no business qualifications, you know, inverted commas. Um, I had known the performing arts industry like the back of my hand and not a lot else, if I'm perfectly honest. I am a special interest sort of person. And I have, yeah, built that business completely from the ground up. I did get a coach a couple of years ago to help me with that business, and now I work with quite a lot of different people in my more online coaching business, which is for adults. But the main thing was that I learned to back myself and that my voice really does matter and so does everybody else's. And it's that whole cliche of going through an experience and then not wanting other people to experience it. So working with others to help them, raise them up, it's just. It's been so amazing because I use a lot of that within my theatre school as well. And what we were talking about earlier, so many people of our generation going through things that have happened in their childhood. Obviously we can't. Me, as one person with a team of 10, we can't fix all the kids in Hertfordshire or anything like that. I'm not saying that for a second. But what we can be is really supportive role models and, uh, really safe people for our, uh, young people to talk to if needed, to look up to and to feel really inspired by as well. And that's really important to me.

Speaker A: So if we're bringing this back to business and like the listeners, how, how this is showing up in their business right now. So they're probably already creating content, they're already going live and they're doing all of the things, but they're actually starting to see and hear, if not already starting to know that they have to be on podcasts, collaborate with other business owners, get on stages, align themselves with maybe people who they think are a little bit scary. And that is slowing them down. I would say it's not stopping them, but it's slowing them down. So do you have tips of how they can manage their nerves, how they can still do the things they know they need to do?

Speaker B: Yeah. So what I would say, first of all, is to just sort of sit with that feeling of, um, this is going to be stretchy, you know, um, I'm going. I'm going to be dipping my toe out of my comfort zone again, you know, because they probably got to every single stage of their business so far by pushing themselves. You know, for some people, certain things come a little bit more naturally due to experience and all that sort of thing. But I would say that the first thing to do is just to sort of sit with it and be like, okay, what is actually stopping me is it that negative voice that always just, you know, rears its pesky little head? Uh, at the moment, that you really need to push forward or is it something super realistic that actually could be true? Because we talk a lot about limiting beliefs and you know, things that stop us from doing things and actually it's just that negative voice. But sometimes times I think it's also really important to be really self aware and look at what's happening and be like, is this actually a realistic thing that is, is true. And uh, I always say you need four pieces of evidence to back something up. So it's having that conversation with yourself first of all, um, and then just mapping out a few steps as to how to approach whatever situation it is. So if it is, for example, that you're wanting, um, to pitch to certain podcasts or pitch for certain stages and there is something that is stopping you, that's one thing for that I would say that research is key. So it's not even about managing your nerves. It's looking at whether that experience or that stage or that podcast is appropriate for you, which I'm sure most people will be doing that anyway. So you've done all of that bit and then it is probably not the best advice, but it's just to go for it because the more times you do it, the easier it is going to become. You just keep on doing it. You keep on doing it because you can't grow from staying still. It just won't happen. And I'm sure everyone's been told, oh, just go for it, just go for it. But if you're feeling like it's something that's stopping you, then speak to somebody else about it. It doesn't have to be a coach or anything. It could just be someone you really trust and get them to look over whatever it is you're going to send somebody. But my advice is just to keep on doing the thing that scares you. For example, one of the things that used to be a block for me was DMing people. I'd be great at DMing people and being like, oh, hi, I'm Savannah. Oh, it's so nice to meet you, like, thanks for the follow. I'd be great at uh, all of that bit. And then when I wanted to progress the convers a bit further to find out more about them, or when I then realize, oh, this person would be a really great client for me, I would then be struggling a lot with the offer. But honestly having a strategy and then the more I'm doing it, the, the easier it is becoming. So it is sometimes just as simple as doing the thing. And then when you Are, uh, on a stage or on a podcast that you've achieved your goal of getting there. And then that feels really scary, uh, because we've all been there, no matter what, no matter how successful you are, no matter how much, you know. Like, I also talk about overcoming your nerves all the time. I say that being on a podcast and on a stage is my natural habitat. Like, I love it, but I still get nervous. I still get those little, like, Shakespeare, oh, look who's in the audience. Oh, that person's here. You know, all of that, it's all totally normal. There are so many things that we can be doing to. To help with. With that moment. Um, for example, how many times have you been told to just breathe or picture the audience with no clothes on or, you know, focus on a spot at the end of the room? Like, it's all nonsense. However, certain types of breathing, brilliant. Certain types of visualization, brilliant. Certain types of focus, incredible. Um, and my quickest one for breathing is in for four, hold for two, out for six or longer. That is a really good grounding one. I'm sure lots of people have heard lots of variations of different types of breathing, but for me, uh, I've had really good results with that one personally and with people that I work with. And, um. Uh, a vision exercise I absolutely love doing with people is a peripheral vision one where you widen your vision sideways, up, and down, and it takes you out of fight and flight mode. It's an amazing one to do.

Speaker A: Wait, what? How the do you do that? Anyone that's listening to this? I'm literally looking. Boss eye.

Speaker B: Trying to look so you don't move your eyes.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So you keep your eyes steady. You keep your eyes still. You don't, um. You don't, like, do a hard sell or anything. You just keep your eyes exactly where they are at a level that feels comfortable, and then you just increase your awareness. So you just start trying to include in your vision as much as you can left and right, like, being really. It's called tunnel vision. We all know what tunnel vision is. When you're like, oh, my gosh, this is awful. You know, but when you're widening your vision to the side right and right and left, and then you start taking it up and down. So, like, the highest thing I can see is, like, one of the panels on my. On my cabin wall. And then I can just about see the table that I'm sat at, and then at the side, I can see the blinds. And then I can see my. I've Got another light over there, so I can just about see that. And when we come into peripheral vision it takes us out of that fight or flight mode. Um, and when we're on stage particularly, or if you're in a podcast studio, I don't think it's as it happens as much to people when they're at home, like in this environment, because you're in your own environment. I feel like lots of people feel quite a bit safer. But if you're like exposed on a stage or in a studio, widening your vision and then regulating your breathing can really, really help with um, any of any sort of feelings of panic, heart beating, sweaty palms, feeling a bit shaky. And peripheral vision1 is so good because no one will even know you're doing it. So you could be doing it on stage as you're getting introduced and things like that. So it's a really powerful one. Um, so interesting.

Speaker A: So that breathing technique that you just talked about, that's the breathing technique I did before Matt's. Yes, speaking. Um, and I, I'm just trying to think about that peripheral vision thing. I think I naturally do that and I don't realize I did it.

Speaker B: It's really good actually.

Speaker A: You're self aware person in the audience, I'm like in the room.

Speaker B: Well that's the other thing, isn't it? Because you want to include absolutely, uh, everybody in your talk. So you will be moving your eyeline constantly. But it's just having that bigger ah, awareness. Because the, the best, um, the best example, uh, I like to give is like imagine you're driving on the motorway and you're feeling really calm and relaxed and your peripheral vision is automatically engaged because you're aware of all the cars around you. And then all of a sudden some idiot comes past you and like cuts you up and they pull in and you have to brake. You automatically goes directly into tunnel vision because you're in that fight or flight mode of like, oh my gosh, I've got a break really, really quickly. I need to make sure there's not an accident. And then usually followed by a few expletives or whatever your vibe is when someone comes and cuts you, you know, and yet you're right back in there. And then it might take you a few minutes to kind of regulate yourself. Um, but that's because that's all been induced and that is a legitimately scary situation where there could have been something really catastrophic that happens. Uh, so how I like to reframe it for people when they're standing on stage, of course, it feels like a scary moment. And you could have some really high stakes. You know, you could have some really amazing ideal clients in the audience. You could be selling from the stage, or you could be doing a talk where there is no actual selling, but you're drip selling all the way through because you're giving so much value and information to the audience that they naturally just want to buy your products afterwards or your services. So how I like to reframe it is that it is just standing on a stage. It is just sharing your expertise with people that really want to listen. You're not on the motorway about to crash into the car in front of you because some idiot has been driving like an idiot. Um, and I think as well, sometimes, although as humans, we all know that, we all know that we're not gonna, you know, hopefully we're not gonna die like standing on stage, but for some of us, it feels really blooming scary. And like I said earlier, no matter how much work you've done, no matter how successful you are, how much money you make, whatever it is, we're all still gonna get those feelings because that's perfectly natural. It's just being able to use the strategies to do your absolute best work when you're there and take advantage of that situation. You know, lots of us are using pay to play models, so you might have invested a lot of money to be on that stage potentially. Um, and you want to be able to leverage it the best you possibly can and get your return on investment.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think when people get nervous, it just shows you care.

Speaker B: Couldn't say it better myself. 100. You want to do a really good job. You want to share your amazing wisdom with the people that are around you. And of course, we're all human beings as well. We all care about what other people think about us as well. Again, some people just care more than others, and that might stop them from achieving their goals. Because I care. I absolutely care about what other people think about me. And I'm not going to say otherwise because I. That just wouldn't be true. And I like to think of myself as an open book and that I. I share what I think and what I feel. And I do really care about what people think about me. Um, and so I would want to do a really good job, but I won't let it stop me from doing the things that I want to do. And I think that's the difference, that some people will let it get in the way. And I don't want that to be the case because you should be able to go and share your message wherever you feel your expertise are needed without worrying about what others are thinking. Because at the end of the day it is their problem, not yours.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Do you have something that you, that we can talk about now to guide people to next. So a freebie. Your lead magnet. So if people feel stuck on.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I've actually got um, my audio and um, video series, which is the first two exercises. I actually guide you through that breathing exercise and that peripheral vision exercise in real time. And then there are four or five maybe other videos of other things that you can be doing to help managing your nerves. And this could be before and during and even after you've done a speaking experience, shall we say?

Speaker A: Mhm. Okay, so if anyone is interested in that, the link for that is in the show notes. And where can people find you? Savannah.

Speaker B: So I'm usually hanging out mostly on Instagram and I'm there at, uh, I am, um, Savannah Madden and I'm Savannah without an H. And I absolutely love connecting with new people on Instagram. I am, um, very much in my DMs every day. So come and say hello. Hello.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you. Is there any last pearls of wisdom or one last pearl of wisdom that you wanted to share?

Speaker B: Oh, um, yes. Please keep using your voice, keep speaking up and keep sharing your message.

Speaker A: Yes, baby. Thank you so much. Okay everybody, make sure you like subscribe. You do the things. I will see you all next month.

Speaker B: Bye bye. Bye.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Mhm. Sam.