Part 2: Swords, Subpoenas, & Software

1 - > SPEAKER_01: Thanks for tuning in to Simplifying Cyber. 2 - > I'm Aaron Pritz, and we're here today with special guest host 3 - > Todd Wilkinson and Drew Tharp. 4 - > And I'm gonna give a little summary of what we're gonna talk 5 - > about because you probably saw in the opener we were cutting 6 - > shit with swords and um fruits and champagne that we're now 7 - > drinking. 8 - > Um but Drew has been an avid sword collector over 120 since 9 - > high school.

10 - > Um you saw as we champagne the um as we sabrage the champagne 11 - > that uh it was it was actually easier than I thought. 12 - > Um, but I would say um we're gonna talk about how we got into 13 - > swords fencing and uh really how some of these things connect to 14 - > cybersecurity. 15 - > So, Drew, welcome to the show. 16 - > Thank you.

17 - > Thank you. 18 - > Glad to be here. 19 - > Give us a little intro about you and how you've been in and 20 - > around cyber and legal and kind of where did you where did you 21 - > come from? 22 - > Where are you today?

23 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah. 24 - > The boring stuff. 25 - > Got it. 26 - > Um yeah, so I am uh I'm an attorney.

27 - > I work for um uh several different companies and and also 28 - > uh help out here at Reveal Risk with some uh some contracting um 29 - > things. 30 - > And so I've been involved in cybersecurity and uh SaaS 31 - > contracting and things like that for about 12 years. 32 - > Um and I've worked for Fortune 500s, multinationals, and also 33 - > uh smaller startups helping them uh try to get their contract 34 - > management systems up and running and and that sort of 35 - > thing.

36 - > SPEAKER_01: Awesome. 37 - > Yeah, and in with in the contracts, obviously, a lot of 38 - > times companies are upping their game of what they're requiring, 39 - > cyber insurance, unlimited liability, lots of things that 40 - > are a tough dance, especially for a boutique and a Fortune 200 41 - > to work out like where do you land in the middle somewhere? 42 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they the the risk is especially outsized for 43 - > for um cyber issues, because obviously if you if you have a 44 - > breach, that can be you know that can cost millions and 45 - > millions and millions of dollars.

46 - > And um uh unfortunately they're they're fairly common. 47 - > So we have to so the the insurance requirements can be 48 - > difficult, uh especially for uh smaller boutiques to meet those 49 - > challenges. 50 - > But yeah. 51 - > SPEAKER_01: And within Pharma Med Device, you've spent a lot 52 - > of time there.

53 - > What are the what are the emerging things that are on your 54 - > mind of concerns, both contractual as well as cyber 55 - > program, as limit as you limited are involved in that? 56 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. 57 - > I mean, I I I think three things come to mind when it comes to 58 - > the uh biotech pharma space. 59 - > One is is obviously protecting your data, your um and and your 60 - > intellectual property.

61 - > Uh I I think a lot of the breaches that we see uh in the 62 - > biotech space uh sometimes aimed at actually stealing 63 - > intellectual property, not just getting some some data so that 64 - > we can go, you know, find some emails to send people and that 65 - > kind of stuff, um, steal some social security numbers. 66 - > A lot of it is is focused around actual corporate espionage. 67 - > And so um, so I think that's something that uh we have to 68 - > keep in mind. 69 - > Another issue that I see coming up more and more often is on 70 - > BAAs, business associate agreements, where um a lot of 71 - > times the the business associate who's trying to contract will 72 - > send a pretty onerous agreement that includes uh limits of 73 - > liability, includes um sometimes even subrogation or um or 74 - > indemnity.

75 - > And basically they're trying to shoehorn real legal issues into 76 - > what's effectively a data sharing agreement, right? 77 - > And when you try to shoehorn those in, then you have somebody 78 - > who's not accustomed to looking at those issues, an IT person uh 79 - > um uh looking at that agreement and going, okay, whatever, and 80 - > signing, signing away some very important rights on that BAA. 81 - > Um we actually talked before, um, it kind of reminds me of the 82 - > Disney World uh thing where Disney World actually put some 83 - > terms and conditions about their physical locations into the 84 - > Disney Plus terms and conditions, which resulted in 85 - > some people having issues at Disney.

86 - > I don't remember what it was, probably slip and fall or 87 - > something. 88 - > But then they have these issues and they couldn't sue Disney 89 - > because they'd agreed to arbitration in the Disney Plus 90 - > agreement, and that bound them to Disney World as well, which 91 - > is which is at best disingenuous, uh at worst 92 - > unconscionable. 93 - > So I think that a lot of people, or I think a lot of companies 94 - > are or a lot of places are trying to kind of slip some of 95 - > those past the radar by having um a quote unquote lower level 96 - > person sign a low-risk agreement like a BAA or a CDA with some 97 - > with some onerous terms.

98 - > All they were trying to do is watch Star Trek online. 99 - > Exactly, exactly. 100 - > Exactly. 101 - > Star Wars, I believe.

102 - > I think Disney hasn't acquired it. 103 - > Not yet. 104 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mixed up my genres. 105 - > SPEAKER_02: Paramount's next, I'm sure it's on there.

106 - > SPEAKER_01: Does anybody know what happened to Cody? 107 - > Did he get cut with a sword? 108 - > I I don't understand. 109 - > Well, yeah, we took him out.

110 - > All right, or the the body cut in half. 111 - > Take one for the team. 112 - > Exactly. 113 - > Anyway, thanks Todd for joining.

114 - > I'm here now. 115 - > I think let's go back to swords because I think that's what we 116 - > came for. 117 - > That you know, we make some connections here. 118 - > But Drew, I think when we were prepping before the show here, 119 - > you were talking about fencing was kind of your path into sword 120 - > collection.

121 - > Yes. 122 - > So what we got into was the four quadrant fencing model, which I 123 - > think has a lot of applicability. 124 - > And we're not gonna do with the classic RSA conference at least 125 - > three to five topics on Sun Tzu art of war. 126 - > But let's at least talk about fencing strategy and things that 127 - > we might be able to learn from that.

128 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. 129 - > Well, and and I think um I I think that it ties in really 130 - > well to cybersecurity today, because when I learned the four 131 - > quadrant strategy, which I'll explain here in a moment, um, I 132 - > was um it really changed the way that I fenced, and that also I 133 - > think can really change the way that we think about 134 - > cybersecurity. 135 - > So the four quadrant strategy says that there are that uh a 136 - > strategy can either be passive or active, and it can be 137 - > defensive or offensive, right?

138 - > So that gives you four quadrants. 139 - > And uh if you ask most people, they'll say, yep, it's a it's an 140 - > aggressive offensive strategy. 141 - > That's the norm, right? 142 - > I'm I'm gonna go get them, I'm gonna chase them to threat 143 - > actors, that's all they got, right?

144 - > SPEAKER_01: Right. 145 - > On the defensive, yeah. 146 - > SPEAKER_02: Right. 147 - > And then there's and then most people think of defense 148 - > passivity.

149 - > We're gonna set up firewalls, we're gonna set up things that 150 - > people keep people from getting in, that sort of thing. 151 - > So you've got uh you've got aggressive offense and you've 152 - > got passive defense. 153 - > But where most people aren't looking and aren't working is in 154 - > the passive offense and the aggressive defense. 155 - > And you can actually have aggressive defensive strategies 156 - > and you can have passive offensive strategies.

157 - > So in fencing, uh a an aggressive defensive strategy is 158 - > actually called second intention. 159 - > And um I want to talk about that uh in a minute and how that 160 - > might relate to cybersecurity. 161 - > And then in fencing, an a passive offensive strategy is a 162 - > press. 163 - > It's a it's an attempt to gain space to push them towards the 164 - > other end of the strip, but not necessarily attacking them the 165 - > whole time, right?

166 - > It's just that that pressure, that push on them. 167 - > And uh I think that can be applicable as well. 168 - > SPEAKER_01: Nice. 169 - > Is there a connection into the Muhammad Ali rope dope?

170 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, certainly passive defense. 171 - > Yeah, yeah. 172 - > That would definitely be, well, I I think that'd be an active 173 - > defense, probably, right? 174 - > But well, no, it's a it's a passive defense, yeah.

175 - > Yeah, yeah. 176 - > Uh it's it's um yeah, that that can definitely be a passive 177 - > defense, I and I think that uh yeah. 178 - > SPEAKER_01: We'll get into more of those connections as we 179 - > progress, but as we were champagne the uh or champagne, 180 - > sabering the champagne earlier. 181 - > By the way, cheers, fellas.

182 - > Yeah, cheers. 183 - > There's no clink because these are plastic, but they look 184 - > classy on the on the camera. 185 - > So yeah, Drew, you taught us pressure, applying pressure, a 186 - > seam, and one clean strike, which is kind of what a breach 187 - > looks like, right? 188 - > Like there's a weakness, there, uh, you know, the seam, and 189 - > there's some sort of pressure, whether it's social engineering 190 - > or urgency, sense of urgency, and you know, panic, and then 191 - > that one clean strike you're in.

192 - > So um it definitely feels like, especially in healthcare with 193 - > some of our healthcare clients, have heavily been a target in 194 - > both ransomware and BEC since COVID, really. 195 - > There's kind of a pass on healthcare before that, and then 196 - > really during COVID, the threat actors went all in. 197 - > And it's a shame, but it's the reality now. 198 - > Right.

199 - > But what else can we learn from kind of the four quadrant model 200 - > and ways that individuals could um both reduce the seams uh as 201 - > well as um be more maybe maybe we can talk about um active 202 - > offense or really I think we said aggressive defense. 203 - > It sounds like the best option on the other end of the table, 204 - > right? 205 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes. 206 - > So um, you know, I really like your analogy with the opening 207 - > the champagne bottle because you're exactly right.

208 - > It's about pressure, it's about uh, and it's the pressure that's 209 - > inside the bottle too, right? 210 - > And so um you can reduce that pressure. 211 - > And actually, we talked before the show, you said, hey, I I 212 - > want to set up these champagne bottles. 213 - > And I said, make sure you cool them before we come in.

214 - > I they need to be chilled champagne bottles. 215 - > And the reason why that is, is because the pressure inside the 216 - > champagne bottle will rise if it's warmer, because gases 217 - > expand in more spray, so there will be right, and and it can 218 - > actually completely destroy the bottle, just just blow up the 219 - > bottle when you try to do the sabrage. 220 - > So that really makes me think of are you working when when you're 221 - > a cybersecurity professional or a CISO, are you working with the 222 - > business to reduce the internal pressure to make sure that 223 - > things that aren't necessarily uh cybersecurity related, when I 224 - > think of that pressure building inside the bottle, I think of it 225 - > in the healthcare space, right?

226 - > SPEAKER_01: Business urgency. 227 - > SPEAKER_02: The the pressure is there because you've got PHI, 228 - > you've got HIPAA requirements, you've got you've got lives on 229 - > the line. 230 - > Right. 231 - > That creates that pressure.

232 - > And obviously in healthcare, it's easy to think about how 233 - > that pressure is built up. 234 - > But in uh, as people are listening to this, in your 235 - > business, where is the pressure building and how can you um and 236 - > and how can you release the pressure, relieve the pressure 237 - > that's not necessarily cybersecurity, so that when the 238 - > breach does happen, you're not all running for the door trying 239 - > to get out. 240 - > SPEAKER_01: No, that's good.

241 - > Let's go back to your story. 242 - > I think in my Intel report here, I think uh maybe we found out 243 - > that you in middle school you were into Dungeons and Dragons 244 - > and then not get into real fencing, fencing lessons, 245 - > fencing teams. 246 - > Um, what has that, and then obviously your story collection 247 - > hobby, um what what have some of those skills have you applied 248 - > into your legal profession? 249 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.

250 - > I I actually remember when I was um in law school, the NCAA 251 - > released a commercial that was a fencer, a collegiate fencer, um 252 - > fencing, uh, and then it kept juxtaposing and and cutting into 253 - > the courtroom, showing them fencing and then um doing 254 - > litigation uh activities. 255 - > And um and I was like, oh, that's really cool. 256 - > That's that's my life. 257 - > That's awesome.

258 - > Um, and so I I think that there absolutely are connections uh 259 - > between uh fencing and legal. 260 - > Um, you know, it's it's kind it's competitive, it's uh it's 261 - > adversarial. 262 - > Um at the end of the day, in both legal uh aspects and 263 - > fencing, there's only going to be one winner. 264 - > You have to uh and you have to be strategic about uh who you're 265 - > talking to.

266 - > And a lot of times it's about the other person more than you. 267 - > Uh a lot of times the other person, um, if you know them, if 268 - > you've fenced them before, if you've worked with them before, 269 - > if you've uh competed against them before, you can know what 270 - > kinds of things they're gonna do while they're in details. 271 - > Exactly, exactly. 272 - > And so um so I think that that is true in law too.

273 - > You know, as as I become more experienced, I know more of the 274 - > players and more of the the places. 275 - > Um, I think actually it's funny, even um you, Aaron, have sent me 276 - > some things to review, and I've been like, oh yeah, I know what 277 - > they're gonna do. 278 - > They're gonna be, they're gonna push on this, this, and this, 279 - > because I've signed contracts with this company before, and I 280 - > know what they're going to request. 281 - > Um, and so I I think that that's uh that's a big uh connection 282 - > there.

283 - > SPEAKER_00: I I was gonna say I see that in Cyber all the time. 284 - > There might be a laundry list of things they're worried about, 285 - > but when you really get down to it, there's two or three things 286 - > that really matter to them in the business, and the ones 287 - > they're gonna come back with and make sure are right. 288 - > So knowing knowing those pinch points are their own pain points 289 - > and why they why it matters to them, usually that helps lower 290 - > that pressure a bit.

291 - > Awesome. 292 - > Absolutely. 293 - > SPEAKER_01: Uh Todd, any questions that you want to ask 294 - > from Drew? 295 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I I was the the the the offensive pressure 296 - > you apply in there, like what is your strategy when you're going 297 - > into it?

298 - > Are you are you a type of person that leads on the offense? 299 - > Do you kind of test with your defenses? 300 - > What's uh share some of your secrets? 301 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.

302 - > When it comes to like a contract negotiation, I is that what 303 - > you're asking about, or more on the cybersecurity side? 304 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I was gonna say on the fencing side. 305 - > What's your uh what's your fighting style? 306 - > SPEAKER_02: What's what's my personal fighting style?

307 - > Um I I was taught um when I was on IU's fencing team to be a 308 - > Swiss Army knife, and that has become my style. 309 - > Um I'm not great at any one particular thing, but I'm pretty 310 - > good at a bunch of things, and I use that as a strategy. 311 - > So I wouldn't say that I stay in one quadrant. 312 - > My whole goal is to score a point in each of the quadrants 313 - > or in each of the kind of ideas um in the first few points of 314 - > the bout.

315 - > Because if I push you, then you decide, oh, I I can't be 316 - > defensive. 317 - > Uh he's he's going to be aggressive. 318 - > And and then if you come and you be aggressive to me and I defeat 319 - > you defensively, then you go, Oh, what can I do? 320 - > And you you I try to whittle down your choices until you're 321 - > at a point where you're just like, I don't know what to do, 322 - > and then I just hit you until yeah, exactly.

323 - > SPEAKER_00: The follow-on to that, if we pivot that to cyber 324 - > and some of the own contracts that we have to deal with, how 325 - > how does that approach carry over? 326 - > Do we do we kind of let the let the other side lead? 327 - > What what are your thoughts there? 328 - > SPEAKER_02: Well, I I think that um, you know, I'm not I'm 329 - > definitely not as the I'm not an expert on cybersecurity like you 330 - > guys are, but I think that uh a lot of times the uh you're going 331 - > to be in a defensive uh posture no matter what, because unless 332 - > you are literally a cybersecurity company, you're 333 - > not going to be able to stay on top of what's going on, what 334 - > every single person is doing, right?

335 - > And and uh it's it's always the attackers, um, whether this is 336 - > uh going to Sun Tzu or or Fensec, it's always the 337 - > attackers who are going to have the the opening move because 338 - > they they have to. 339 - > Um by by nature, if you're defending your you're waiting. 340 - > Um and so I think that when we think about that though, I I 341 - > think that we think about how the um how threat actors can use 342 - > that their um use these tactics against us.

343 - > So one example is um they actually can be aggressively 344 - > defensive um because you may think, well, you know, we're on 345 - > defense, we're waiting for them to come try to attack us, and 346 - > that's true. 347 - > But what they may do is bait you. 348 - > Um and this is called a second intention action and fencing. 349 - > It's when I try to get you to do something, knowing what you're 350 - > going to do, and then take advantage of that.

351 - > So it feels very much to you like I'm giving you open, like 352 - > I'm saying, here, come attack me here. 353 - > SPEAKER_01: I think in social engineering and efficient, I 354 - > think that's the lure, right? 355 - > The first action is getting you to do something benign, and then 356 - > the second one, once you've had a little bit of trust or an 357 - > interaction, the second one is really where the payload is 358 - > delivered. 359 - > Exactly.

360 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh in order to pull that off, you have 361 - > to kind of know what's gonna make the person move, right? 362 - > Um yeah, if you if you send me an email and it comes from you 363 - > know a bunch of random letters at um, you know, hotmail.au.co, 364 - > I'm gonna go, well, that's stupid.

365 - > That's that's somebody attacking me. 366 - > But if you send me an email that has the that's masked so that it 367 - > appears as though it's one of my friends and family, then that's 368 - > obviously gonna work better. 369 - > And so I I think that's the bait. 370 - > That's the uh yeah.

371 - > Yeah, that's awesome. 372 - > SPEAKER_01: Uh well, that's not awesome, but that's that's what 373 - > it's real world, that's what happens. 374 - > Um, so when we were chatting the other day, we we discussed kind 375 - > of AI and the trends that you're seeing. 376 - > And obviously, uh we can talk about some of the uh the lawyers 377 - > that have kind of uh not been prepared as they used it and 378 - > didn't make it their own and it hallucinated.

379 - > Uh but we also talked about Harvey AI. 380 - > So maybe cover both those topics, tell us what Harvey AI 381 - > is and go from there. 382 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure. 383 - > So Harvey AI, um, I think, and and I I don't want to be a 384 - > promoter here.

385 - > I'm not uh I'm not a filiated with Harvey at all. 386 - > I just have a client who uses Harvey and I've um and they've 387 - > requested me to use their instance to to do some things. 388 - > And um frankly, I've been really impressed with it, um, what it 389 - > can produce, what it can do, um, how it can streamline work. 390 - > SPEAKER_01: Um I think Harvey was named after the suits 391 - > character, Harvey.

392 - > SPEAKER_02: Is that yeah, I I think that I think that's right. 393 - > I think that's right, which I I pointed out, I find kind of 394 - > funny because they tell us the they tell the lawyers that 395 - > they're selling it to, use it like an associate, but but 396 - > Harvey's not the associate. 397 - > Harvey, it's the partner, but Mike probably wouldn't have been 398 - > as uh quick as a name, right? 399 - > So um, so I I have used Harvey and really think that it has a 400 - > lot of advantages.

401 - > I think that it has some major issues still, too. 402 - > And of course, anybody who's in job preservation mode right now, 403 - > AI isn't perfect. 404 - > I, you know, you obviously need to hire me. 405 - > But why why do you still need a lawyer when you've got Harvey AI 406 - > that can do a lot of the things that you may hire a lawyer to 407 - > do?

408 - > And to me, it's really about threat assessment, which ties 409 - > back to cybersecurity as well, right? 410 - > It's about um it's about looking and and deciding where certain 411 - > risks are. 412 - > What I've noticed with Harvey, for instance, is it saves me a 413 - > lot of time because I can plug a contract in and I can say, hey, 414 - > can you review this for me? 415 - > And Harvey will determine what uh what particular clauses are 416 - > are important, what particular clauses are uh outside of 417 - > industry norms, things like that.

418 - > But at the end of the day, it's not Harvey doesn't know is this 419 - > an important customer that's going to make or break our year? 420 - > Is this something that we're willing to take a risk on? 421 - > Harvey doesn't know the risk context, which is something we 422 - > talk about all the time. 423 - > When you bring a contract to me, I go, you know, I don't like 424 - > this term, but if you want their business, it's probably 425 - > something we're gonna have to accept.

426 - > And that's that's your choice. 427 - > And and I I totally understand what you said. 428 - > SPEAKER_01: Right more back and forth parrying and 18 month MSAs 429 - > and things like that. 430 - > SPEAKER_00: There's this concept in cybersecurity of what's your 431 - > risk appetite, how much risk are you willing to take on?

432 - > And that is that is a hard thing to quantify. 433 - > And it's a lot of personal intuition. 434 - > It's a lot of knowing who to talk to and the context of 435 - > what's happening in that moment. 436 - > And that that one is hard to put down into like an algorithmic 437 - > process that AI can take on.

438 - > SPEAKER_02: Absolutely. 439 - > And that's exactly the same in legal too, right? 440 - > It's it's I I think we actually have a very similar I think that 441 - > we have a very similar profile to the business when we're 442 - > partnering with the business because I don't think they want 443 - > to spend money on either of us. 444 - > We're not fun.

445 - > We don't produce, you know, we're the return on investment 446 - > is not instantly identifiable and and something that you can 447 - > uh that you can write to the state to the shareholders about. 448 - > But you'll find out real quick if you don't have quality there. 449 - > You'll find out real quick, oh, uh we have gaps. 450 - > And um yeah, it's it's it's hard to convince people of your 451 - > value.

452 - > SPEAKER_01: So two last questions, and one question Cody 453 - > usually asks all of our guests. 454 - > And we you've already given us a bunch of Drew fun facts and 455 - > personal stories, but what is one fun fact that most people 456 - > don't know about Drew Tharp that we've not already covered? 457 - > SPEAKER_02: Um I I I think the fun facts that I'll give you 458 - > guys, um, and this this may make it harder for me to win at two 459 - > truths in a while in the future, but um uh and it ties into the 460 - > swords.

461 - > Fun fact about me, I was a professional model. 462 - > And I know those of you looking at the video right now are 463 - > going, man, I mean, I obviously assumed that you were a 464 - > professional model. 465 - > And it was not a professional model for uh for you know ales. 466 - > Um it was uh I was a professional model um because I 467 - > worked at a company that makes swords.

468 - > Uh it was actually an importer of swords called Cass Iberia. 469 - > And this was in college. 470 - > It was um uh it was fun. 471 - > There was this girl I liked who lived in Tennessee, and so uh I 472 - > went and followed her and went and worked at a sword company, 473 - > and now I'm married to her, but I it was it was a fun place to 474 - > work.

475 - > And one day they said, Hey, you actually sort of know how to use 476 - > swords, and I said, Yeah, sorta. 477 - > And they said, Okay, can we dress you up in armor and go 478 - > take pictures of you out in the field? 479 - > And I was like, Sure, why not? 480 - > So I put on this full suit of samurai armor and I went out 481 - > into the field across the the road and you know just did some 482 - > did some uh movements with the swords.

483 - > SPEAKER_01: Crouching tiger, hidden dragon. 484 - > SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly. 485 - > And pictures came out, crouching tiger, crouching tiger, hidden 486 - > dragon. 487 - > There you go.

488 - > Um the uh the pictures came out awesome. 489 - > It was this uh it was this field of of uh wild grass and there 490 - > were the mountains of Tennessee behind us, and it just looked 491 - > and they were kind of foggy, it just looked awesome. 492 - > Very nice. 493 - > Um, but then a a couple weeks later, um my boss there at the 494 - > time came to me and he goes, Hey, I need you to sign this and 495 - > uh we're gonna add 40 bucks to your check this week.

496 - > And of course I was in like college. 497 - > I was like, I don't know, okay, whatever. 498 - > And he handed it to me and I signed it and I said, It was 499 - > before I was a lawyer. 500 - > And I signed it and I said, What am I doing?

501 - > And he said, Well, you've got to be in the model guild, you've 502 - > got to be in the model union because we want to put your your 503 - > the pictures that we took on Blade Magazine, which is uh you 504 - > know a uh magazine, uh knife magazine. 505 - > And I said, Okay, and so there we go. 506 - > I am a I was a dues-paying member of the modeling union. 507 - > SPEAKER_01: Very nice.

508 - > All right, and then last question if you or your career 509 - > were a sword, which one and why? 510 - > SPEAKER_02: That's a good question. 511 - > And one that you did not prepare me for. 512 - > So I have to.

513 - > Yeah, yeah, I know. 514 - > SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of AI generated notes. 515 - > There were a lot of notes. 516 - > I'm doing offense.

517 - > You are, you are, you are. 518 - > SPEAKER_02: I I I think I'm I'm uh I think I have to use passive 519 - > defense because I think I was caught off guard here. 520 - > Um but when I think about it, um, you know, I think that I 521 - > would say a rapier. 522 - > A rapier is the sword that you'd normally think of as the three 523 - > musketeers.

524 - > Um it's a it's a it's a longer, skinnier sword that's used for 525 - > um for dueling uh in particular. 526 - > And um the the rapier was was a big um change in technology when 527 - > it came around. 528 - > Uh because what people were discovering is people were 529 - > wearing less and less armor because firearms were becoming 530 - > more and more common, and armor doesn't stop bullets, and so why 531 - > why wear big heavy pieces of armor when you don't need to? 532 - > Um and so the rapier came around as uh you know, firearms didn't 533 - > start being great.

534 - > You had one shot and then you then you needed a sword. 535 - > And the whole idea was the rapier is if I can poke you from 536 - > all the way over here and you're all the way over there, then 537 - > then I win. 538 - > And so actually, uh it's funny, over time there we see uh there 539 - > were laws put in place in places like Vienna and Paris and London 540 - > that limited the length of rapiers because people were 541 - > getting 50, 60 inch rapier blades. 542 - > Long range, the very long range, and then of course knocking over 543 - > people when they're walking through the streets and doing 544 - > all this kind of stuff.

545 - > And so, but to me, the reason why I say I, you know, my 546 - > career, my my philosophy as is a rapier is because um it's all 547 - > about setting up the right strategic decision point and 548 - > then acting on that with uh with uh decisiveness. 549 - > SPEAKER_01: So that makes sense. 550 - > And all three of us desire to be skinny, and we're all working on 551 - > that. 552 - > Exactly, exactly, exactly.

553 - > I think Todd, you said suck it in right before we went on. 554 - > SPEAKER_00: That's that was the plan. 555 - > SPEAKER_02: No, I mean if you asked me what I'd actually use 556 - > in real life, it'd definitely be a Scottish bronze. 557 - > Why is that?

558 - > Uh, because I'm a big guy and I like to hit things hard. 559 - > Okay, all right. 560 - > SPEAKER_01: Awesome. 561 - > Well, Drew, thanks for coming on the show.

562 - > Really enjoyed this. 563 - > Is probably my favorite episode, and we've destroyed the most 564 - > fruit and uh champagne. 565 - > And uh yeah, I appreciate it. 566 - > Yeah, absolutely.

567 - > Thank you guys for having me. 568 - > It's been great. 569 - > Awesome. 570 - > Cool.