Digital Colonization with Samantha Simma

1 - > Tim: You're listening to the award-winning Serious Privacy 2 - > Podcast sponsored by Trust Arc. 3 - > Please welcome your hosts, Paul Breitbart, Ralph O'Brien, and 4 - > Dr. 5 - > Kay Royal. 6 - > Ralph: Hello and welcome to the podcast.

7 - > Today comes an interesting moment because England seems to 8 - > be hit up in a heat wave. 9 - > And I'm going to compare that to the tropical climate of Jamaica, 10 - > where for a change, parts of the United Kingdom are currently 11 - > experiencing a heat wave where the temperature goes 36-37 12 - > degrees Celsius. 13 - > That's about 95 to 100 in Fahrenheit. 14 - > Against that backdrop, I'm delighted to welcome Samantha 15 - > Sims, leading data protection and privacy professional from 16 - > Jamaica, board advisor on all things data, and we're going to 17 - > have a conversation about digital sovereignty, amongst 18 - > other things.

19 - > Samantha herself is passionate about helping organizations 20 - > building trust through responsible data management, 21 - > data protection government, and ongoing legislative 22 - > requirements. 23 - > In a world where we often talk about data as currency, I think 24 - > Samantha's going to bring some valuable insights to us today 25 - > about how we can take control of the information and talk about 26 - > where we are in respect to the rest of the world and our local 27 - > jurisdictions.

28 - > And so, welcome to the podcast, Samantha. 29 - > My name is Ralph O'Brien. 30 - > K: And I'm Kay Royal, and welcome to Serious Privacy. 31 - > Absolutely delighted to have you here, Samantha.

32 - > I've been to your wonderful country once, dreamed about 33 - > going lots and lots of time because my favorite movie of all 34 - > times is Cool Running. 35 - > I know you probably hear that a lot, but a very few people 36 - > probably have it as their favorite movie of all times. 37 - > And it is, and I'm a big geek. 38 - > I'm a big geek.

39 - > But now I love it so much I can even think about playing it on 40 - > TV and I start crying. 41 - > And none of the stores there had any cool running shirts. 42 - > They weren't allowed to sell them because, I guess, of the 43 - > trademarks. 44 - > And I was like, I'm in Jamaica.

45 - > I can't get a cool running shirt. 46 - > But that's okay. 47 - > I bought plenty of Jamaica shirts. 48 - > Wonderful.

49 - > Wonderful. 50 - > But thank you for joining us. 51 - > It is quite a delight to have you. 52 - > If you listen to the podcast, you'll know that we do the 53 - > unexpected question.

54 - > I did not bring my list of hilarious questions with me, so 55 - > I tried to look one up real quickly before we started. 56 - > In 20 years, what do you hope is obsolete? 57 - > And that's a serious one as well as a funny one. 58 - > So take it whichever direction you'd like.

59 - > One thing I wish to see made obsolete is inequity. 60 - > Oh, yes. 61 - > She took it to the serious side, and I got nothing to top that 62 - > one. 63 - > That's what I want to see made obsolete.

64 - > Ralph: I think we could all agree with that. 65 - > K: Absolutely agree with you there. 66 - > Yeah. 67 - > Yeah, I think she just peeled mine and Ralph's answers.

68 - > Mine was going to be a telephone. 69 - > We're not going there. 70 - > I don't know where Ralph was going to go, but I'm going to 71 - > double down on Samantha's answer and go, yeah, inequities. 72 - > Ralph: Inequity works works for me as well.

73 - > And I must admit, yeah, a more inclusive world would be would 74 - > be a sort of a follow-up to that one. 75 - > If I had to go for something that on the more trivial side, 76 - > though, I was going to say, yeah, actually that's not 77 - > trivial at all. 78 - > I was going to say that I've now moved to electric car, fossil 79 - > fuels, but I guess that's just quite a serious one as well. 80 - > K: You're just supposed to be the weird questions, people.

81 - > Y'all had to take it to the serious side, but you know what? 82 - > I can't argue with that. 83 - > As a woman in a man's world, both in law and tech and 84 - > everything else, Samantha, I can't argue with that. 85 - > And I'm from the deep south.

86 - > I'm from Mississippi. 87 - > So I grew up watching inequities. 88 - > And my best friend of all times, we just hit our 40th year for 89 - > our high school class reunion. 90 - > So my best friend from back in high school, she and I could 91 - > only see each other at school.

92 - > And if that doesn't tell you what inequities with this world 93 - > is in, then I don't, yeah. 94 - > It's ridiculous what we got. 95 - > All right, let's move on to a lighter topic. 96 - > Ralph: Yeah.

97 - > So yeah, we normally give our guests an opportunity just to 98 - > say a few words about themselves before we dive in. 99 - > So I did a really poor job of introducing you, Samantha. 100 - > Having having looked down your history, you've done some really 101 - > cool and interesting stuff. 102 - > So perhaps you want to start there and let people know who 103 - > you are and where you come from.

104 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so my name's Samantha Sims, and I am in 105 - > Jamaica right now because I've been in Jamaica for a while, 106 - > opening and maintaining the Caribbean desk for the 107 - > information collective, my consultancy. 108 - > But as you can hear from my accent, Jamaica is not my 109 - > accent. 110 - > I'm not Jamaican by accent. 111 - > So I'm born and raised in London, in Brixton, in the heart 112 - > of the Jamaican community.

113 - > Right? 114 - > Oh wow. 115 - > And I only I've only been based up here for the last four nearly 116 - > five years, working on the Caribbean desk. 117 - > Before that, what did I do?

118 - > So the consultancy had been operating for it's been 119 - > operating for eight years. 120 - > But we've been operating across the US, Canada, UK, Middle East, 121 - > Asia. 122 - > But now I'm so heavily focused on work in the Caribbean, US, 123 - > the UK, some Canadian work. 124 - > And also what I call bridging the Atlantic, and that is 125 - > connecting Africa, the US, and the UK and the Caribbean.

126 - > Nice. 127 - > So that we bridge the Atlantic and we start to have these 128 - > conversations, these important connections that have been we're 129 - > separated in the past. 130 - > Ralph: There is a triangle there, isn't there, of history 131 - > of connection between Africa, Europe, and the Caribbean, of 132 - > course, that we have to acknowledge moving forwards. 133 - > Absolutely.

134 - > But actually, for all the terrible things that that 135 - > triangle has caused, there are actually some deep connections 136 - > now in actual allowing people to spend time and travel between 137 - > those areas and experience similar cultures, would you not 138 - > say? 139 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's been efforts to, for example, Ghana 140 - > and some other countries have allowed for visa-less travel, 141 - > visa-free travel, which is massively important for people 142 - > who have passports that are limited in that way.

143 - > But also on a digital front, there is that connection as 144 - > well. 145 - > But in terms of my actual background, I've worked globally 146 - > since 2007. 147 - > I came out of working for the UK government, did central 148 - > government, local government, then went on to work at Link 149 - > Vaders. 150 - > And that was my first global role.

151 - > And since then operated globally. 152 - > So it's only natural for me to be able to navigate the 153 - > patchwork of different laws as they are popping up, as you know 154 - > what it's like right now in the privacy space, but also to see 155 - > the connection and to find. 156 - > And that's been part of my a huge part of my journey and what 157 - > I've continued to do. 158 - > One of the main reasons why I opened the Caribbean desk for 159 - > the information collected was because what I didn't want to 160 - > see happen, and we've seen it before time and time again, is 161 - > people who do not understand the culture of a region come in and 162 - > define privacy for the region.

163 - > Because then it can never work for the people. 164 - > Ralph: That's fascinating because we live in a, as you 165 - > say, an interconnected world, and actually one of the topics 166 - > you wanted to talk about was digital sovereignty. 167 - > Complete aside, I'm actually glad you mentioned Ghana because 168 - > England played them in the football last night, and I 169 - > actually messaged Teki Akuete, the former Ghanese commissioner, 170 - > just to say, well done, because they held us to a draw.

171 - > Anyway, so we've got this sort of global approach where where 172 - > technology breaks down borders and allows us to talk, but you 173 - > wanted to talk about digital sovereignty and holding on to 174 - > the culture of a region. 175 - > So I guess the question then is how do you manage that kind of 176 - > pushfall between big global technology giants and localized 177 - > culture? 178 - > SPEAKER_03: Let's be honest. 179 - > We are firstly, here's one thing I'll say.

180 - > Jamaican culture is it finds itself in so many different 181 - > parts of the world, right? 182 - > Spread through the music. 183 - > You talked about people recognize the Jamaican sprint 184 - > team. 185 - > The flag is one of the most discernible flags there are, 186 - > right?

187 - > So punch is hard. 188 - > And even when we look at music, you find Jamaican music at the 189 - > base or Jamaican influence at the base of a lot of the music 190 - > we listen to. 191 - > Okay. 192 - > So I think sometimes we forget that within our own areas we 193 - > have a a very strong culture.

194 - > Many countries have very strong self-power. 195 - > But where are we today? 196 - > Where it's the situation that we're facing is that I I just I 197 - > call it out nowadays. 198 - > It's techno feudalism.

199 - > Yanis Farakis calls it out, but it is straight technofeudalism, 200 - > and we have all set walked into this. 201 - > K: Yeah. 202 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay. 203 - > I used to sit and think, why can't any of my British clients, 204 - > my small, my startups, get funding?

205 - > In the UK, they could nobody was getting really any funding at 206 - > Series A. 207 - > Sorry, at Seed and Series A. 208 - > The British mentality was to hold off until nearly Series B. 209 - > Why then we just we wouldn't we lost that sector.

210 - > So as dominant players, we've all become, every single one of 211 - > us, actually, in across the world. 212 - > We are almost all tied to Fang, as we call them, right? 213 - > And now we're going towards Magos, right? 214 - > The new acronym is in.

215 - > Ralph: Yeah, it is. 216 - > Oh, I was actually looking at a social media app last night 217 - > that's been brought out from Europe called W, I believe. 218 - > SPEAKER_00: Yes, right. 219 - > Ralph: Which is W Social, which is very much supposed to be like 220 - > an alternative to Twitter, uh, or sorry, X as it is this days, 221 - > but it says made in Europe for the world, governed by European 222 - > law, hosted on European infrastructure, but designed for 223 - > conversations on humans around the world.

224 - > So is there a trend then that we've kind of got all this 225 - > globalization and feudalization? 226 - > Is there like a counter-trend beginning to spring up where 227 - > we're saying, hey, perhaps we don't want all to be ruled by 228 - > without offense, K, large American tech conglomerates or 229 - > Chinese infrastructure or European laws, and you want 230 - > something a bit more local, a bit more, as you say, culturally 231 - > nuanced? 232 - > Or do you see this as a problem that's going to just exacerbate?

233 - > K: One thing I want to jump in there real quickly is because 234 - > Samantha, you said the culture as well, and Ralph, you just 235 - > brought it up. 236 - > It's long been one of the things, and fans have heard me 237 - > preach on this on prior ones. 238 - > So I'm gonna, I'm not gonna preach too hard. 239 - > Privacy is rooted in the culture because, and there's even new 240 - > jobs that spring up.

241 - > I think they started springing up about five, five, ten years 242 - > ago on probably a line with GDPR, in privacy translation. 243 - > So come people that specialize in translating privacy notices 244 - > and privacy policies into local language because it's so rooted 245 - > in culture that a one-to-one word translation does not get 246 - > you the context of what it is that privacy is addressing or 247 - > data protection is addressing. 248 - > So, privacy, probably more so than any other technology field 249 - > out there, is deeply rooted in culture.

250 - > You can see it in the differences and the definitions 251 - > of sensitive personal data. 252 - > All arguments aside, to Dan Solob, he knows he and I are 253 - > going to die on this hill together one day because he 254 - > believes nothing should be sensitive data. 255 - > And I believe there's absolutely a difference in sensitive data. 256 - > But you look at the difference in definitions of sensitive 257 - > data, even between the US and Europe, which special categories 258 - > of data, the US didn't even really have one until the US 259 - > state started passing laws.

260 - > You had to assume that if we had a sectoral law on it, that maybe 261 - > we thought that data was special to be protected. 262 - > But yeah, so sorry, side note, culture is very deeply important 263 - > in the field that we work in and how we handle data and 264 - > technology advancements. 265 - > SPEAKER_03: And I want to touch back on that point, actually, 266 - > because you're absolutely right. 267 - > So let's think about culture.

268 - > What is what is private information in one culture is 269 - > not the same as in another. 270 - > Okay. 271 - > And so when you come with a layer of rules that do not fit 272 - > the culture, you have a set of rights that will not be 273 - > utilized. 274 - > If they are not understood and they don't work with the 275 - > culture, how can you bring it?

276 - > You can help implement that. 277 - > So let's think about it. 278 - > We've already seen it, right? 279 - > Do you remember the rights of subject access was something 280 - > that was really only ever enforced in the UK and Ireland?

281 - > Why? 282 - > Not recently. 283 - > I'd say to say before, right? 284 - > Not recently.

285 - > But why was that? 286 - > Because we already, in a common law system, we have the right of 287 - > disclosure as part of our legal process. 288 - > So it started to run I wish it was in parallel, a little bit 289 - > before. 290 - > As soon as somebody was thinking, yeah, something's not 291 - > right.

292 - > Let me put in a subject access request. 293 - > So we saw numerous companies were buckling under the pressure 294 - > of subject access requests. 295 - > I can think of numerous employment cases that got 296 - > settled because they'd rather settle than complete the subject 297 - > access request. 298 - > Ralph: I tend to get our parking finds that way.

299 - > SPEAKER_03: I love it, love it. 300 - > We weren't seeing that elsewhere. 301 - > So what we want is we want if we're going to give people 302 - > rights, there's no point in just coming in with a GDPR light and 303 - > implementing that in countries that hadn't even been 304 - > considering privacy in this way. 305 - > Yeah.

306 - > And then all of a sudden, in a small culture where everyone 307 - > knows everyone, where you know if the receptionist's 308 - > grandmother's ex-husband was ill two weeks ago and therefore she 309 - > has to travel for the funeral. 310 - > And now we cannot consider that information as that information 311 - > is now subject to data protection because we've got to 312 - > play like we don't know it. 313 - > That does a what well So what's the problem then? 314 - > It would only and this is why I opened the desk because I saw 315 - > what was happening.

316 - > I saw the we were all automatically being asked to 317 - > adopt EU standards that were designed for the EU and which is 318 - > a very different culture. 319 - > Yeah. 320 - > Ralph: So you've got two influences here. 321 - > So you're saying you asked me to have regulation from the EU, but 322 - > at the same time you're getting technology coming in from the 323 - > US.

324 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 325 - > Ralph: So the US comes from a different starting point again. 326 - > The EU's got this sort of more fundamental rights approach. 327 - > The US has started from a be nice to your customer-consumer 328 - > uh approach.

329 - > Okay, you tell me I'm wrong. 330 - > K: Yeah, I say the US companies probably come at it from a 331 - > different perspective, but I'm kind of hard on these big US 332 - > companies and what their ulterior motives are, which 333 - > they're not hidden at all. 334 - > I don't know if the definition of ulterior includes hidden is 335 - > not hidden. 336 - > They're after the dollar.

337 - > We all know that. 338 - > And Apple has tried to change its public perception by touting 339 - > all of these privacy things it has in place. 340 - > And some of it's done well. 341 - > The biometrics used to unlock a phone are stored on that phone.

342 - > It doesn't go back to Microsoft or Apple or whatever. 343 - > So I I do like that, but trust me, the things it's bragging on 344 - > may be true, but don't go looking for anything that it's 345 - > not bragging on because it's got some privacy deprivations in 346 - > there, shall we say. 347 - > SPEAKER_03: And also, privacy is not a standalone subject in the 348 - > world, right? 349 - > It's part of a wider settled geopolitics.

350 - > And when you are sitting here in a region that has become part of 351 - > the US imperial, right? 352 - > Ralph: State That's one way of putting it. 353 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I never quite understood how it feels to be 354 - > subjugated until I started spending more time here. 355 - > Wow.

356 - > Ralph: Again, going back to my friend Techie, she she often 357 - > calls it digital slavery. 358 - > Yeah, techno slavery, yeah. 359 - > This idea that because uh do you think it's down to just the 360 - > global influence and the global culture and the way technology 361 - > has connected us all and we're all clinging to similar 362 - > platforms? 363 - > Or do you think it's down because there aren't any 364 - > homegrown alternatives?

365 - > What's your kind of root in and root out of this, perhaps? 366 - > SPEAKER_03: Let me tell you what's really interesting. 367 - > So I'm not sure that we're at digital slavery yet. 368 - > I think we're in digital colonialism.

369 - > That for sure, without a doubt, right? 370 - > Very few of us and across the board, all of a sudden the EU 371 - > has woken up and said to itself, okay, digital and data, the 372 - > mandate that they have around digital and data, they're going 373 - > to be pushing that. 374 - > The UK's all of a sudden woken up just very recently and 375 - > realized that hold on, we have pretty much zero control, hence 376 - > why we banned children from using the social media at 16, 377 - > right?

378 - > That's just some sledgehammer to crack up that could have been 379 - > dealt with years ago. 380 - > Ralph: We just did an episode on that. 381 - > K: It's going live today if it hadn't already, I think. 382 - > SPEAKER_03: So what's interesting is going back to 383 - > your point around the money, one of the good things that happens 384 - > for small island developing states, right, is you do not 385 - > have a population big enough for the tech companies to want to 386 - > deploy their tech.

387 - > So what happens is you have a lot of locally grown tech. 388 - > So the Caribbean, all the food delivery apps are our own. 389 - > K: You're saying there's not a whole lot of Uber or DoorDash or 390 - > Lyft there? 391 - > SPEAKER_03: We have Uber, and Uber also has to be very careful 392 - > because when Uber first came in, everyone's like, because we have 393 - > these two issues.

394 - > Firstly, there is a mindset that when you've been subjugated, you 395 - > almost want what the others have. 396 - > You have to remember that Grand Britain, Grand US is streamed 397 - > into the public consciousness in other parts of the world by way 398 - > of television, yeah, music video, and whatever we see on 399 - > social media that the algorithms helpfully push towards certain 400 - > populations. 401 - > K: Yeah. 402 - > The design of the addiction, yeah.

403 - > SPEAKER_03: Absolutely. 404 - > So they if you're if you are not well traveled, you do not see 405 - > the underbelly, the nastiness. 406 - > K: You think Texas is like the TV shows, and California are all 407 - > Hollywood, and yeah, and New York is the city that never 408 - > sleeps. 409 - > And that's basically the impression you have of the US.

410 - > Exactly. 411 - > SPEAKER_03: And likewise for UK. 412 - > I remember I've got family members in abroad, and I 413 - > remember them coming out just over to London, and they're from 414 - > like a major metropolitan. 415 - > And they're like, hey, it's pretty modern here, right?

416 - > And then I realize they think it looks like Hollywood Twist. 417 - > Yeah. 418 - > Ralph: Yeah, it it yeah, England isn't all Oxford and Harry 419 - > Potter and Big Ben. 420 - > Oddly enough, my my cousin's been living with me recently, 421 - > and he brought his girlfriend over from the US, who he's now 422 - > emigrating over there, and she had never been out to the US.

423 - > And he took her into London and they did Big Ben and the Tower 424 - > of London and the London Eye and all of that kind of stuff. 425 - > And she came back and I said, Oh, what did you like about the 426 - > UK or anything? 427 - > She said, Meal deals from Sainsbury's. 428 - > SPEAKER_03: I can actually.

429 - > Ralph: You can get a you can get a sandwich and a drink and a 430 - > packet of crisps for five pounds. 431 - > K: And you're happy, yeah. 432 - > Exactly. 433 - > Exactly.

434 - > Ralph: That was the thing. 435 - > I'm gonna take the meal deals back to America. 436 - > K: But to be fair, Europe is traveling from country to 437 - > country in the main European Union that we're talking about. 438 - > It's like going from state to state in the U.

S. 439 - > And the U.S. 440 - > really does have multiple cultural regional differences.

441 - > The South is vastly different than the Northeast and Texas. 442 - > People think Texas and the South are the same. 443 - > They are not. 444 - > The deep South is different than the other South, and California 445 - > is all on its own.

446 - > It's going to become an island. 447 - > And then you've got the Midwest and the Southwest. 448 - > And it's very different cultural. 449 - > But thinking about people having these ideas of what a place is 450 - > like, I would like to say that I was a little bit more not 451 - > expecting Jamaica to be all cool runnings.

452 - > But to be fair, that's the picture the majority of the 453 - > world probably has in Jamaica, right? 454 - > Is the movie Cool Runnings and marijuana. 455 - > Exactly. 456 - > SPEAKER_03: It's a lot more than that.

457 - > It's way more than that. 458 - > Firstly, it's the only English-speaking nation within 459 - > this side of the region. 460 - > It is a bustling business hub. 461 - > Kingston is a business city.

462 - > It is a main city for conferences. 463 - > We have there is a lot of organization. 464 - > A lot of organizations are based here. 465 - > K: The food is amazing.

466 - > Let's just go there. 467 - > The food is amazing. 468 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 469 - > Food is great.

470 - > And we also had a lot of American influence in terms of 471 - > food as well. 472 - > But and Jamaica is not the Caribbean. 473 - > The Caribbean is far wider. 474 - > We have 48 million people across the Caribbean.

475 - > Jamaica only has three million people. 476 - > Cuba is a far has a far bigger population. 477 - > Dominican Republic, Haiti, very the quite populous places, 478 - > right? 479 - > But there's a lot of difference across the region.

480 - > But whichever way, what's what happens is people want what has 481 - > been streamed into them. 482 - > Yeah. 483 - > If you tell me we eat KFC and McDonald's, I'm going to want 484 - > that. 485 - > Ralph: So do you think you're losing regional identity then?

486 - > Or do you is that your concern? 487 - > SPEAKER_03: That's not my concern. 488 - > My concern is power. 489 - > And the misuse of power.

490 - > Yes. 491 - > The dominance and mis the dominance that these parties 492 - > have. 493 - > And also we've got to call it out. 494 - > Let's be honest.

495 - > These tech bros, as we call them, we where are we seeing 496 - > them today? 497 - > Standing side by side big next with a political party attending 498 - > state delegations. 499 - > Right? 500 - > This is what power looks like in autocratic states.

501 - > And we have business businesses leading. 502 - > Businesses that have control of all of our data can then design 503 - > algorithms to decide what we see, what we think, who we 504 - > interact with. 505 - > K: And they use it. 506 - > They use it, they sell it, they lease it, they give it away.

507 - > And the majority of us, even those of us in this field that 508 - > we understand the problem, don't understand the technology. 509 - > Most of us could probably never imagine why would you think this 510 - > leads to this and you take these three things and it means what? 511 - > Who even comes up with that stuff? 512 - > SPEAKER_03: But I don't think it's a technology that's our 513 - > problem.

514 - > It's not that we don't understand the technology. 515 - > I don't think we understand the game plan. 516 - > They're laying it out bare in front of us, but then we almost 517 - > don't want to admit it. 518 - > And I have to say to you, this is where digital slavery comes 519 - > in.

520 - > Because I'd be damned if my ancestors toiled and managed to 521 - > achieve emancipation, worked hard to come this far for us 522 - > only to be pushed back in. 523 - > Yeah, it's still slavery. 524 - > K: To be subject to someone else's whims and idiosyncrasies 525 - > that we have no visibility into. 526 - > Ralph: That's limited to Jamaica and those countries with the 527 - > colonial history either.

528 - > I think in the UK, one of the reasons they're looking at a 529 - > social media ban for under 16s is because they're tired of 530 - > trying to get the companies to do anything different, right? 531 - > They're tired of trying to regulate the large tech giants 532 - > and finding that difficult to do. 533 - > And actually, even if they do start talking about social media 534 - > bands, you don't actually have America on the phone saying, 535 - > hey, don't break our businesses.

536 - > Don't do horrible things. 537 - > This is a bad international thing you're doing. 538 - > unknown: Trevor Burrus, Jr. 539 - > K: The lawsuit, the court case that won on the technology 540 - > addiction design, the judge just denied them a new trial.

541 - > So that's one win. 542 - > They do not get a new trial-level trial to look at it. 543 - > Now it has to go to the court of appeals on the judicial merits, 544 - > not on the facts. 545 - > When you appeal, and I don't know if it's this way 546 - > everywhere, maybe this is just me being stupid, but the trial 547 - > court is a court on the facts.

548 - > And then when you go up, you can only appeal on judicial merits. 549 - > You cannot appeal on the facts. 550 - > The facts have already been established. 551 - > Trevor Burrus, Jr.

552 - > Ralph: But that's again the US legislating for US platforms. 553 - > And should the rest of the world have to wait for the US to 554 - > legislate on US platforms in order for there to be changes at 555 - > home? 556 - > Is that is that kind of the point you're making, some 557 - > humphrey, as well? 558 - > SPEAKER_03: No, it goes it really does go back to powers.

559 - > Who has a seat at the table? 560 - > Right? 561 - > Look at the G7. 562 - > Who has a seat at these tables?

563 - > So let's take G7, let's take Fang, let's take Mango. 564 - > We've pretty much got world commands there, and then you put 565 - > into the banking system. 566 - > So when you look at that situation, there are people from 567 - > very few different types of backgrounds. 568 - > Yeah.

569 - > And the human being is naturally seeking to protect itself. 570 - > Ralph: In groups and out groups, yeah. 571 - > Absolutely. 572 - > People like people who like themselves as they say.

573 - > K: Yeah, which is stupid, right? 574 - > When we were talking about inequities earlier, I got to 575 - > thinking, and what we hear from a lot of people on diversity is 576 - > we need to welcome diversity of opinion. 577 - > We need to welcome this. 578 - > And I'm like, you don't even need to welcome it or celebrate 579 - > it.

580 - > It needs to be the baseline standard. 581 - > We need diversity, or we're not going to have a holistic 582 - > viewpoint. 583 - > SPEAKER_03: But it's more than that. 584 - > It's about the fact that if I, and I've got a talk called From 585 - > Consumers to Architects, right?

586 - > If I am forever the consumer and I'm not an active participant in 587 - > the digital economy as an architect, and I'm merely a 588 - > consumer, and not just I, my pretty much my entire region. 589 - > Yeah. 590 - > Let's see, let's talk about this in actual context. 591 - > The infrastructure, the telco infrastructure here is owned by 592 - > one company.

593 - > BT owned it through competition laws, it had to be opened up. 594 - > It's owned by one company. 595 - > And all of that data flows back into the US. 596 - > It all flows back to the U, back to Miami.

597 - > Under which protections? 598 - > Yeah. 599 - > What happened through the act? 600 - > What's happened then?

601 - > What's happened to the Stalled Communications Act? 602 - > Ralph: I had a very similar conversation with a customer 603 - > yesterday, actually. 604 - > We were talking about international transfers and the 605 - > risk of legal access from, say, the US, with the whole EU-US 606 - > data transfer background to that. 607 - > And they said, but it's okay because Microsoft have told us 608 - > it's hosted in Europe.

609 - > And I thought for a second and then said, Where who owns 610 - > Microsoft? 611 - > Where's Microsoft based? 612 - > And they said, Microsoft is based in Seattle in the US. 613 - > And I said, Do you think it matters one damn to Microsoft if 614 - > they're owned out of US in Seattle that the data's in a 615 - > European data center?

616 - > If somebody puts in a request, somebody leans on them hard 617 - > enough and said, Do you think it matters it's in a European data 618 - > center? 619 - > Because if it's going through the tech company there, then you 620 - > can you will pretty much have to open yourself to that 621 - > possibility of access, right? 622 - > And that is a sort of a factor you have to consider now when 623 - > you're looking at anything, it's because what other locally grown 624 - > choices do people have?

625 - > A reasonable price, I think, is the is one of the biggest 626 - > things. 627 - > Have they grown so big now that there's no stopping them? 628 - > Is company bigger than country? 629 - > When you consider the enforcement budget of, say, 630 - > locally here, the ICO versus the legal budget of, say, Metagroup, 631 - > is the ICO going to want to get involved and take enforcement 632 - > action?

633 - > Will they be tied up in court for years? 634 - > SPEAKER_03: So I think every time we talk about enforcement, 635 - > we talk about the top layer. 636 - > My problem is, and it always starts with the foundation. 637 - > Where we've got to today, and I always tell people like, oh, AI 638 - > is new, AI governance.

639 - > We've been working on this stuff for years. 640 - > We've all been working on this. 641 - > We've been working on automated decision making that was used to 642 - > produce for machine learning outputs and in turn AI outputs, 643 - > right? 644 - > For 10 years now.

645 - > This is no new stuff. 646 - > So if you have, if I have no control of the foundation, what 647 - > happens in the speed that we're moving with the development of 648 - > technology and the outputs it can produce? 649 - > What happens in two years' time when you are extrapolating data 650 - > from a particular area, ingesting it, deciding to crunch 651 - > it using your own algorithms and then spitting it back out? 652 - > Enforcement takes two, three years to get there.

653 - > So when we talk about, I think sovereignty, as much as I talk 654 - > about digital sovereignty, we need to be quite honest with 655 - > ourselves. 656 - > I think we've almost the horse is bolted, right? 657 - > And stable doors shut. 658 - > That's what I think.

659 - > I think we've got there, to be honest. 660 - > They are almost too big for us to compete with, and we do not 661 - > have the antitrust or competition laws that can 662 - > prevent that on a on a on an international basis, right? 663 - > But I do think that we are at a point, an inflection point, 664 - > where we all need to stand and look and say, what are we doing? 665 - > How are we building?

666 - > Do we have the right voices included? 667 - > That's one part of it. 668 - > But to what extent can we make our infrastructures different? 669 - > It cannot all be about how much it costs.

670 - > And the World Bank put out a report very recently, I think it 671 - > was within the last few days, on digital sovereignty. 672 - > And it taunt about small island developing states, we call them 673 - > SIDs, and said that effectively we do not have the budget to 674 - > have our own infrastructure. 675 - > That is true, right? 676 - > We can, and I can't speak for other regions because this 677 - > what's being felt here is being felt by the majority of the 678 - > world.

679 - > The only people really, America's top tier, China's top 680 - > tier. 681 - > I don't know what's happening in India, do much around that. 682 - > Russia put in the data localization law to prevent 683 - > against this. 684 - > They were quite clever requiring that what 11 years ago or so 685 - > now.

686 - > But then the EU, UK sit beneath that, Canada sit beneath that, 687 - > and then it's the rest of us. 688 - > We're all stuck in this layer where we, as I say, we have very 689 - > little control over the infrastructure. 690 - > Hardware's made in China, software is coming out of the 691 - > US, rules are coming out of Europe. 692 - > Thank God Europe has got that little foothold until the threat 693 - > of tariffs.

694 - > And what do the rest of us have? 695 - > Ralph: I had an interesting one the other day with just a taxi 696 - > company, actually. 697 - > I ordered a taxi to pick me up from the station. 698 - > And they said, Oh, well, WhatsApp you, the uh the 699 - > whatever.

700 - > And I was said, I don't have WhatsApp. 701 - > They're like, What? 702 - > And I said, I don't have WhatsApp. 703 - > How are we going to message you then?

704 - > And I'm like, SMS, phone numbers. 705 - > And it I find it incredible. 706 - > You talk about digital inclusion. 707 - > There's an awful lot of digital exclusion because it is now 708 - > assumed you have WhatsApp.

709 - > It is now assumed that you have Facebook, right? 710 - > I've had people say, Oh, the like in my social life, I play 711 - > games and there's a gaming group. 712 - > And they said, Oh, great, just join our Facebook site and we'll 713 - > organize all our games on there. 714 - > And I'm like, nope, don't have that, right?

715 - > Because I've chosen not to. 716 - > Now you may just call me awkward, fine, but at the same 717 - > token, there is this assumption now that we're all on these 718 - > platforms. 719 - > We're all on Insta, we're all on Snap, we're all on WhatsApp, 720 - > we're all on whatever. 721 - > And as I said, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I 722 - > was in a car park the other day, and I saw some people perhaps in 723 - > their 80s, 70s, who were trying to park a car and they couldn't 724 - > pay for the parking because they didn't have an app, they didn't 725 - > have a phone capable of using an app.

726 - > And they actually had to leave the car park because they 727 - > couldn't pay any other way. 728 - > They couldn't go to the website, they didn't have the app. 729 - > And I know these are fringe cases, but to me it's we're all 730 - > fringe at some point, right? 731 - > We're all fringe at some point.

732 - > SPEAKER_03: They're not fringe, because digital exclusion is 733 - > something that we started to see, particularly during the 734 - > COVID period. 735 - > But but they're not fringe, but they're they are around 736 - > application, uh the application layer, right? 737 - > Do you want access to this particular application? 738 - > So I'm telling you, WhatsApp is used for everything in the 739 - > Caribbean.

740 - > Every business uses WhatsApp pretty much. 741 - > I communicate with the telecoms companies via WhatsApp. 742 - > That's how we do everything. 743 - > Primarily because you is free, effectively.

744 - > It's not free, it just relies on data. 745 - > But so that's a whole wealth of data that's there. 746 - > Well, it also allows people to connect, and there's benefits of 747 - > these large systems, right? 748 - > Through WhatsApp, people have been able to connect and 749 - > maintain family lives, maintain culture, spread culture, etc.

750 - > But it doesn't mean that just because we use these systems 751 - > that we don't want to also be able to have ownership of the 752 - > infrastructure that it sits on, right? 753 - > And I think that's what's important. 754 - > We're seeing lots of stuff happening within the Caribbean. 755 - > I'm really proud of it.

756 - > Some of the proposals that I've been discussing and with people, 757 - > we've started to see that make national policy in Jamaica. 758 - > We're pushing towards digital sovereignty in insofar as it can 759 - > happen. 760 - > Building out data embassies, that's a new plan for the for 761 - > Jamaica. 762 - > Because we're people are starting to understand the 763 - > richness of the data that is produced in these regions.

764 - > Ralph: That's amazing. 765 - > And actually, we have to, at some point, I'm afraid, we could 766 - > carry on talking for ages, I'm sure. 767 - > Hours and hours and hours because of it. 768 - > Samantha and I actually had a call last week, and I didn't I 769 - > didn't want to hang up because we had a fantastic conversation, 770 - > and I'll make sure it's not our last one, by the way, Samantha.

771 - > But as we say on a podcast, people can only walk the dog for 772 - > so long. 773 - > So I think on that positive note, you've ended it there with 774 - > the the building of those good localized digital infrastructure 775 - > and making some great moves towards retaining the culture. 776 - > I think we're gonna have to say goodbye. 777 - > So thank you very much, Samantha.

778 - > Any last words from yourself? 779 - > SPEAKER_03: Do follow. 780 - > I want people to think about what this means for people more 781 - > widely. 782 - > Get involved, understand, and let's have a more inclusive 783 - > digital future.

784 - > Ralph: Amen. 785 - > So with that, that brings the podcast to a close. 786 - > So I just need to say goodbye and see you next time. 787 - > K: Bye.

788 - > Bye y'all. 789 - > Tim: Now that was serious privacy. 790 - > Please subscribe on your favorite podcast app and leave 791 - > us a review. 792 - > You can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Blue Sky at 793 - > Sirius Privacy.

794 - > Feel free to drop us a question or a comment. 795 - > We'd love to hear from you.