#37 Shalini Prakash | Author - Clueless at 30

Speaker A: In this segment, we'll experiment with the boundaries of storytelling, featuring some of our friends, mentors and advisors. We'll share perspectives and reframe the narratives that fall on a spectrum. We'll have unfiltered conversations around life, business, and everything in between. Between the vantage point of a deep thinker and an atomic player. Between an objective mind and a subjective heart. Between the truth teller and the truth seeker. Between two sides of the coin. In our season finale, we have Shalini Prakash with us. Shalini is an investor, author, and a curious cat. Her curiosity around social identity and human well being led her to author the book clueless at 30. Shalini Prakash, welcome to the season finale of Sassituf Podcast. Super excited to have you here. And thanks for sending over your book as well. Clueless at 30. I actually did this, uh, read last weekend, so thank you so much for that.

Speaker B: I'm glad you enjoyed it, Shashwat. And it's wonderful, uh, to be here, uh, today. I didn't realize it was the season finale, so. Yeah, it's, uh, exciting to be here

Speaker A: today, to be honest, as I was speaking to you earlier as well. Right. I started my second season with Wes Kao, one of the woman entrepreneurs from the Silicon Valley ecosystem as well. She's, uh, co founding maven along with Kagan Biyari. And for the entire season, I could not find any amazing woman entrepreneur or venture capitalist in my ecosystem. So thank you so much for being gracious to come, uh, on my show as well. So thank you for that.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a pleasure. And, um, I hope I'll be able to share a thing or two which will be beneficial for the audience.

Speaker A: Absolutely. First of all, congratulations on this book, ah, clueless at 30. And I'm really biased for this particular book because I'm a millennial myself. It feels like it's a playbook for millennials and people who are navigating their journeys as well in their professional and personal career. It's an amazing read. And, uh, before I take the acronyms of the consulting framework that you have designed, the fomo, the sobo, Jho, Low and Mofo, I would love to hear some thoughts on that part from you itself.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think we millennials identify best with acronyms, so hence the acronyms. And, um, yeah, so I think, um, we are defin, uh, living a life in, uh, the foremost state. Right. I mean, at least I was like that in my late 20s thinking about how I'm going to be left behind if I haven't figured out a few things in life or you know, there are also these glorified representations on social media of how life is, if you figured it out. And then there is pressure from the family to say, okay, everyone's killing it out there and what are you doing? And you know, there's a lot. And also there's self inflicted pressure as well. Right. So yeah, I think uh, I start off the book with uh, talking about the anxieties that we start our 20s with. For a lot of people that happens, uh, early 20s when you're trying to figure out a career and. But there comes a point for some people where they feel stuck. You know, they feel like, okay, what now? Or what next? And um, not everybody is at the liberty to quit their jobs and go pursue their passion because passion sometimes doesn't play pay very well. So what do you do when you feel stuck? Right. What do you do when you have to really sort of uh, feel liberated and fulfilled and you know, and how do you navigate from there forward? So the book starts with FOMO as our current state of mind where we are stuck, we are feeling clueless. And uh, Sobo is the. When you're in search of better options. So all you can basically do when you're stuck is, you know, you're screwed. You know, there is nothing, nothing else that you can do other than taking that step forward and trying and figuring out other options or opportunities for you out there. So but then when you, when you're on the other side, because it's always still looking greener, there are other hundred things that will go wrong, right? I mean there is different kinds of anxieties and there is different kinds of fears and failures and mistakes and, and of course I've shared a lot of that also with examples from my friends and other people in the ecosystem. But the idea is to say that, hey, you know what, you're screwed. You're in search of better options and there's nothing you can do. You know, you have to go through whatever the new opportunities throw at you, the new challenges that are thrown at you, and you have to go through it if you're looking for something better on the other side. And uh, which brings us to the third part with this. The uh, joy of letting go where, which is the jholo phase where you actually essentially let go of every inhibition that is holding you back, right? And all these stories that you make up in your mind, the belief systems that you have built in yourself. And no one's probably told you this, right? I mean this is something that you think, for example, if you fail that you're going to be an utter failure. If you make a mistake, everyone's going to laugh at you. But then at the end of it, you know, if you ask yourself, nobody really cares because everybody is sort of figuring out their own. And everybody is stuck in their own web of, uh, truths and uncertainties and so on. So you know, it's, it doesn't matter. So you let go of everything that is holding you back, and most of this is mentally holding you back to take that step forward. And the ultimate, uh, state that I have said, which is, um, mofo, which is actually the inverse of fomo, which becomes mofo. It is moving forward. You know, you have to just move forward. You have to sort of let go of everything and take that leap of faith and move forward and view yourself as a work in progress and never as a finished, uh, product. And all of us want these big leaps in our lives and big outcomes in our lives. But ultimately it's all those little things that we do, uh, really matters, which I've spoken a lot in the fourth phase, uh, which is the mofo phase. So this is sort of a mind map of a clueless person if they want to be un clueless. Uh, there is no cheat sheet. There are no major tips in this book. It is, uh, honest and as real as it can get.

Speaker A: I think there is a sort of cheat sheet as well. Building your slash. That was a nice, uh, you know, grid or a framework that you had designed, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yes, yes. So there's a community that I actually started, uh, three, four years ago called find you'd slash essentially because I was going through this quarter life crisis and you know, I thought, okay, if I surround myself with other clueless people, maybe, maybe it'll help. And it actually started off like that. And um, I ran some workshops, brought, gave an opportunity for people to come and showcase their talents. The, the essential soul of this, uh, movement was that why are we always celebrating our main avatars, right? Our main avatars is uh, our day to job and so on. But there are other things which are probably a true extension of who we really are. You know, maybe you're a great artist or maybe you're a great beatboxer and there is no place for you to showcase, uh, all your second talents or your night avatars. There was no platform for that. And that's essentially what I went about to uh, build back then. What slash really means is, you know, be an artist, slash blogger, slash writer, slash Any slash that you want to be and hone those different skills. And this is particularly important when you don't know what is that one thing that you want to do or what you are really passionate about. The idea is go and do 10 things there or 30 things there. Because in order to become good at one thing you anyway need to know 10 things. So why not go do uh, 10 things? You know this example that I use all the time that you know, if you want to be a wildlife photographer, you need to understand wildlife and ecology and environment and you know, photography and art and so many slashes that you need to know so many avatars to be really good at one thing. So the more unique that you become collecting these slashes, it gives you a unique lens in the way you operate at your work. And so that's uh. I have lived by that slash life where I'm constantly looking for new things to do. And I've been looking at how I can reinvent myself uh, through different um, avatars. Which always I think gives you a unique uh, perspective about everything that you take to work every day.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think um, if someone were to ask you what is Shalini Prakash, uh slash, then it could be let's say corporate professional, venture capitalist, entrepreneur, author, traveler, conversationalist and all of it. Right. So.

Speaker B: And cake lover. I love cake.

Speaker A: That's good to hear as well. And uh, I learned a lot of terminologies and concepts as well Shalini, from your book. Right. Uh, the German concept of tosh, loose panic which is like uh, fear of missing out. That is something that I had not uh, known about. And I met a lot of my German friends as well. A lot of my listenership are in the European Union. And uh, my first seasons co host is a German himself. So that's a good terminology to know about. And the second part is I loved um, the uh, Sobo especially because ah, search of better options. Because if you are coming from a typical um, Asian ecosystem, right. You are being um, not brainwashed but you are actually trained from early days to follow a very uh, specific path. Right. Like you mentioned, a lot of people follow a typical path that is being shaped by their own society and by the ecosystem that they were born into. But I also love the um, uh, terminology that you shared about maximizers and satisfiers from Herbert Simons decision making book, ah, as well. So of course I love that Sobo primarily it somehow rhymes like South Bombay. Right. So that's like ah, a acronym for Sobo. So fomo, everyone Knows about it but so might pick up in the coming months. Who knows about it. Would love to know a little bit about your uh, decision making framework as well. Like how do you um, uh, take bets or uh, take uh, typical personal and professional decisions uh, when you are at a particular juncture because you have a great understanding about the VC and the entrepreneurial ecosystem and uh, you also have a, ah, understanding how the bullshit meter works. So would love to know your worldview around that.

Speaker B: So I think uh, the decision making framework, at least in terms of the kind of work that I look for um, has always been I look for something which is beyond professional growth. There has to be a little bit of ah, personal growth as well as professional growth. And that's been always very important for me and I need to be able to leave a little bit of my own signature style of whatever I'm doing. You know, I need that little uh, creative freedom and so on. So I'm always in pursuit of looking for something uh, challenging but I also want to do it in my own style, on my own way where there's a little bit of me uh, left and not sort of really follow the cookie cutter route of doing this. So which also means that you have to get very creative because at the end of the day if you're driving a business you need to be very strategic about how you're applying yourself and doing it and it's a lot of uh, hard work for sure. I, I remember when I started writing, when I was with 500 Startups, I started writing a lot on LinkedIn. I was no writer before, uh, that was actually the first time I actually started writing and I didn't know how to do it because I. But I wanted to look at how I can build thought leadership around investing and thesis and so on. It was not very popular to write five years ago and uh, but that's a direction that I adopted for myself and um, you know that small step that I took then, you know, I think a year or two later I was linked into a voice and then I started writing more and more and then I landed a book deal with a leading publisher in India and then of course the book came out. Right. So the thing is, I think I'm always looking for scope for. When I say when I'm looking for scope for personal development is what I mean. It helped me professionally as well as personally. Um, in terms of acquiring a new skill and in terms of, you know, how do you choose like what is right for you to do has mostly been Driven with this concept of, you know, satisfyers as well as maximizers. Right? I mean, maximizers are where you dwell too much, you think too much of, you know, uh, should I do this, should I not do that? And you're looking for that perfect outcome, right? Because we all want perfect results, perfect outcomes. We don't want to make that mistake. So when I don't know what I want to do, I choose the other route where I say, okay, what is the worst thing that will happen, right? I mean, if this fails or if this is not the right move, um, and if I can live with the outcome that it will give me, you take that chance and you move forward. Because a lot of times, um, if it is not just a small transition and you're looking for an exponential transition or you're looking for a completely different, uh, line of work, it becomes very important that you are able to make that leap of faith. You take that leap of faith and you sort of change. But you need to be able to live with that outcome and not really regret that decision that you, uh, took. And I think that is mostly the only decision making strategy that I have. Like even right now after the books come out, um, I've been doing a lot of consulting with startups and so on and I'm looking at how I can build a platform. And you know, there are these thoughts sometimes that come with friends saying, hey, you should just join back a VC fund. Why are you trying to do things on your own? And a lot of questions like that, right? Are you doing the right thing? Are you doing the wrong thing? And yeah, you always weigh the pros and cons of what you're doing and you can live with the outcome of letting go of some of these opportunities. And I think each experience has a learning of its own. So why not take the chance when your heart tells you to?

Speaker A: Absolutely. I think, um, uh, somehow, um, it feels like you are, uh, I don't know if there's a word called as experimentalist where you uh, do a lot of micro experiments and actually, you know, you build upon your hypothesis and then finally you follow something for um, a few years.

Speaker B: I mean that's the journey of like any entrepreneur, right? I mean if they want to do a startup or anything, you know, you don't just jump, right? You, you do your own research, uh, around it, you conduct micro experiments, small experiments, and then once you have feel strongly about it, you sort of dive in fully. Um, and if, you know, some experiments work, some, um, don't work. But the idea is not to fret and um, fear doing that experiment or even starting that experiment. Right. I think that's where most people fail. Um, that's where most people ah, don't take that step forward because they're worried that that experiment will fail. But the whole point of an experiment is that, you know, you either fail or um, success. So that is the nature of an experiment. So you can't say, I don't want to do an experiment. And as they say, you know, about, you know, when we are 60 or 70, probably we are going to look back and really regret all the things that we didn't do than the things that we actually did. So think you sort of follow your curiosity wherever it takes you and um, play around a little bit or scratch the surface and see what more is there for you.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And um, of course I started from Shane Parish mental models and I uh, really dig deep into some of the exceptional entrepreneurs and VCs mental models as well to understand how do they take bets and how do they um, take decision when they are at a particular juncture. And what I've realized is that um, like Annie Duke talks in thinking, in bets, that if you are at a juncture where there are two things and both are equally good, that is the juncture where it is most difficult for a person to take a decision, but to decide between two paths, which are of course with a rational mind, if you could evaluate one path is better than the other, like uh, maximizers would do, then it is easy. But how do you take a decision or a bet when you are at a juncture where both the parts are equally great? That's an interesting concept for sure.

Speaker B: I think, um, there are a couple of things, um, there is this theory of self, uh, determination, uh, which talks about a couple of things that is required for a person to really thrive. And um, for me personally it is autonomy in terms of how you can grow more and more and you know, freedom to try new things, freedom to experiment with smaller things or new strategies or whatever it is. A new product line depends on the line of work that you are in. But you need a little bit of autonomy. And the second thing that I think, uh, based on the same theory is that um, you need connection, you need uh, relatedness that you're able to relate to people around you who align with your value system, who align with the um, same goals. So yeah, I would probably, you know, if I'm stuck at a juncture where the two things which are equally exciting, I would probably look at these Aspects, um, you know, where, where would I get more? Because for all of us at the end of the day, you know, we all take work back home. A lot of us only work at the office, right? We take it back home and it's living with you every day. And the amount of time we spend with our colleagues and um, our team itself is so much. So it's important that there are a lot of these other aspects that um, come together. And I would sort of weigh my uh, decisions based on these other factors as well.

Speaker A: Awesome. You mentioned about a nice word, autonomy, right? I mean millennials definitely, um, uh, you know, reach out for projects or experiments that gives them more autonomy. And the uh, Gen Z are much more crazier than us, so. So I mean they have multiple avatars, they have different slash, and they need autonomy on a daily basis. So our future generations are going crazier by the day. And um, I'm very curious to understand that, um, how do you work in a society, ah, which uh, by nature the construct of the society has constraints, right? So irrespective of uh, in what avatar you want to work in, you still have uh, boundaries or constraints embedded deep down in the cultural roots or deep down in the business roots as well. So how do you um, establish this particular thread of autonomy in everything that you do? Either they can follow something that you mentioned about having a personal signature in every work that you do. You bring that out. But how do you um, as a, um, strong, uh, multi. Potential, light individual, bring out all the colors of your personality as you tread further in your professional or personal journey as well.

Speaker B: So I think um, what happens in these uh, cases is so first of all it's important that we build identity, um, capital, right? Um, so that's something we can touch upon a bit more. Basically it is uh, what you. All the experiences that you have really collected or perspectives that you have built over a period of time. So once you do that, so what's very important in this is that you can create a signature style of yours only if you're very eclectic and you know, you're weird in your own way or crazy in your own way, right? You take that a little bit of crazy everyday work. Because if you are thinking like robot or if you have like a blueprint of how certain things are told to you, then you have a fixed uh, mindset, right? About how certain things need to be done. So you know, there's this fixed mindset and growth mindset, but you know, but once you have fixed mindset, you know you're not pragmatic about how you are approaching a solution or a problem. Right. You are not really approaching with a little bit of pragmatism. But you know, the moment you have growth mindset where you know that uh, you can keep evolving and you can keep learning new things. I think that's how you can leave a signature style of yours in the way you approach. Because at the end of it um, there's so many talented people out there. How do you really stand out? I mean everybody is smart, so many people are competent and capable. So I think that uh, for you to be really unique, uh, you need to have unique experiences or unique perspectives. And that only gives, you're only able to give that to yourself if you're doing things outside of your work or you have probably done a lot of things outside of your work in the past and it's sort of um, which everything is coming together. So yeah, I think that's how you can leave your own signature style.

Speaker A: I think I loved um, I've read through the pages where you had mentioned about the identity capital and um, something that really comes to My Mind is a 4e framework which talks about uh, first is education and the second is environment, um, and the third is experience and the final fourth is called as experiments. So usually people form their identity capital having or grasping a little bit of education and wherever environment that they are in and they do a lot of um, traveling to gather the experience. Like you have traveled to so many locations, 30 plus countries. So you know, you've been to Paris, you've been to let's say Israel. I was enjoying uh, your experience in Israel as well that you've covered in the books. So um, and then finally you take these um, experience um, and ah, do the experiments in the environment that you are in. And that's how you actually formalize your identity. And that also is very iterative. So you keep on uh, changing the identity based on new opinions and perceptions that you've mentioned as well. So it's a very constantly evolving avatar as well.

Speaker B: Yes, of course. And I think it's the experiments as well as the failures. I think uh, we all learn so much more from the 99 um, mistakes that we make uh, than the one success that we have. There's so much of learning that comes. So I think that's why it's important uh, for it to say it's okay if it uh, fails. And you know, and the first time you may, you may worry about failure or maybe second time you worry about Failure. But I think by the time you've come to the fourth time or fifth time, you probably lost count of how many times you tried something and you. And it didn't take off and you don't really care about it anymore, and you say, okay, this worked great. If it didn't, you just move on to the next thing. Right? Uh, but as you're, uh, rightly saying, yes, it is about conducting these experiments, learning from it. Even if it's successful or even if it's not, uh, you take what you need to take and then you keep moving forward.

Speaker A: And would, uh, love to know your experience in Israel, because, um, uh, I spent some time in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, uh, back in 2018. Of course, you've covered the Israeli coffee, but the Israeli choosepa in the entrepreneurial ecosystem is much talked about, and especially if you, you are an investor, you've been to us so many times. So in the Boston ecosystem, you'll find so many investors from the, you know, Israeli ecosystem as well. Uh, same goes for New York, especially in the East Coast. So, um, tell me more about your Israeli experience, because that's, that's really fascinating,

Speaker B: uh, to me, I think, um, one is, of course, you know, it's a very, uh, vibrant country. I spent a lot of time in Tel Aviv. I was also, also there for a conference and, um, which is the DLD conference, which, which is actually a technology conference. And it was very fascinating to meet all these, um, Israeli entrepreneurs and the kind of, uh, technologies that they're building was so far ahead, even for your everyday use cases and so on. But what was really fascinating, uh, for me was the attitude of, uh, people there. You know, one is of course, the, the freedom and um, how they live by the day. You know, and it's, It's. It's interesting because I met this person, she was a local Israeli, and she was saying, you know, we all live like there is no tomorrow. Doing things at a certain pace, so fast, so quick, and they're like, totally living it up. And then, um, I said, oh, wow, you know, like, this is, this is something I would love to do. And. And uh, she said, yeah, we actually party like there is no tomorrow, because they actually believe there is no tomorrow, you know, with so much of, uh, you know, tension around the world and, uh. Right. And they're the epicenter of all things controversial. So. So it's amazing how they live life to the, uh, fullest without, uh, without any inhibitions and without a care in the world. You know, they make their own rules. And uh, which was very, very fascinating, uh, for me.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think rightly, um, you mentioned about um, life is an adventure. That's where you uh, found out, right? So they take life as an adventure. And how can you be demotivated if you take that as an adventure as well? So that's fascinating to hear.

Speaker B: I mean, because a lot of us view this as, oh, you know, we need, because we end up needing this milestone based, uh, life at some point where we're saying, okay, I'm going to be happy when I reach there. And uh, which is fine. Right? I mean most of us should have milestones for a career and stuff. But I think the difficult part is when you treat milestone as just an end destination and you forget to enjoy the journey or the adventure towards achieving that milestone itself. And we uh, also make the mistake of associating happiness with that milestone, saying, okay, once I reach that milestone, I'll be happy. I know I'm going to be happy when I do this next. Or I'll. I know. And I think as human beings we always want more. I, I think that's our nature. That's how we are wired. So which would mean that we will never be happy because we keep setting the bar high for ourselves and in pursuit of being happy and all these milestones, destinations that we keep, uh, you know, is, should be treated as an adventure and it is a part of our life and not really think that um, you know, it's associated with happiness because happiness is a state of mind and uh, it's not our end destination or end goal. So it's important to separate the two. I'm all for having um, you know, certain aspirations, saying, okay, this is where I want to be by the age of 30, this is where I want to be by the age of 40. But it may not happen, uh, for a lot of reasons. Right. I mean everything is so dynamic and it keeps changing and it's important that we are uh, treating all these milestones or journeys as an adventure and enjoy the ride.

Speaker A: I love those lines. And because you have been a venture capitalist and you are swimming in the same ocean. So I'm curious, uh, Israel is just next to India in terms of the number of unicorns that are getting minted after, um, US and China, then definitely India and then it's being followed by Germany, Israel, etc. And UK as well. So in your interactions with a lot of VCs and entrepreneurs from uh, multiple ecosystems, you have spoken to a lot of entrepreneurs from India and definitely you have exposure to uh, global entrepreneurs, including from Israel and US et cetera. Could you point out few of the nuances or um, you know, differences that you felt in their worldview, in their viewpoint, or how they are scaling things up or how they approach their lifestyle in general. Uh, and is that a particular differentiating factor in how they are building their unicorn companies and how they approach the business world per se?

Speaker B: So I think is. So these um, entrepreneurs in different countries from day one, they're actually building for the world, you know, um, as a product. Right. They're not thinking I'm going to build a product which is very US centric or I'm only going to operate within a particular geography. So the vision itself is very grand and very big and they're thinking global from day one, um, itself. And uh, so that, that is the first uh, difference. And uh, but in terms of the hustle and uh, perseverance through, you know, keep moving forward and achieve your dreams, I think that's a similarity across all entrepreneurs, I think anywhere in any part of the world. I think that's what makes an entrepreneur entrepreneur, right? That they'll go to any length, uh, to make uh, their startup successful. They eat, breathe, sleep, uh, their company and their product and their startup. I think that's a similarity that you'll see across um, any, any geography or any country.

Speaker A: Yes. And that's a great um, uh, point. I was reading some of the pages which I'll touch upon, uh, wearing the sassy pants. So in Israel I've seen a lot of women entrepreneurs which is like very prevalent. And uh, similarly maybe in the west and other, other ecosystems they have a little bit more number of women entrepreneurs as opposed to the eastern ecosystem. If my stats are not wrong, if you were to take the numbers, I think in India and in uh, Southeast Asia ecosystem the numbers are not higher. And there's a big area where um, you know, these things can take a spike. Do you agree to that or do you have an opinion around that?

Speaker B: So I think definitely there is a uh, gap in the ecosystem. But I would like to also point out that if you have to be a woman entrepreneur, it's, this is the best time to be a woman entrepreneur because there are so many programs, there's so many uh, opportunities out there, um, that it's only improving. So that's a good sign. But in terms of the east versus uh, west, in terms of opportunities, I would say that a lot of this has also got to do with uh, the cultural aspects of um, their, the Respective country itself. Right. In even now in most parts of India, you know, some women are educated. Some women, even though they're educated, they probably always know they'll be a homemaker. They may, you know, their spouses or extended family may not allow them to work and so on. Right. And I think um, this has got nothing to do with the ability of the um, person or the ability of the entrepreneur or the ability to even dream big. I think it is just the cultural nuances which doesn't really allow uh, for that to happen. But I think uh, things are slowly changing for sure. Uh, and uh, if anything um, it's only getting better. And I think there are challenges of similar nature. Women, you talk about investing in different countries as well. Uh, there's a lot of conversation even about um, not enough women entrepreneurs getting funded and so on. So I think there is conversation around that globally, but maybe even more in our country because there are um, so many cultural uh, uh, stigmas associated with it.

Speaker A: Sure. And um, I uh, wouldn't consider you as an outlier, but let's say a lot of uh, like just taking your life an example, right. You've traveled to 30 plus countries. You have exposure to multiple geographies, you have a supportive family ecosystem, uh, Sam, Vikram, all your friends are there. Rohan your brother is there. So not a lot of women entrepreneurs have the same um, uh, you know, environment or um, ecosystem as well. And that, that could be one of that limiting factor. And the second one that I've been um, uh, you know, discussing or digging deep into is that the interpersonal or uh, personal touch points for women entrepreneurs and VCs. Uh, let's say if you are going for a lot of partnership deals, you will find a lot of um, people uh, that you interact. They are all men. If you get into an American VC chamber, you'll find a lot of white men. Right. So if I were to uh, frame it properly, it would be like the challenges have always been there and it is a very systemic challenge and uh, it will definitely take a lot of uh, years to get over it. But um, uh, if you were trying to um, you know, frame something that would really what would be something that you would like to do so that the change happens in the nearest one year or two year for woman entrepreneurs or for women VCs.

Speaker B: So I think uh, as you said, you know you're, if you're, if you're thinking that oh, there are a lot of women investors or um, sorry, male investors or male entrepreneurs out there and so on Right. If you're already thinking about these things, then you've already created a barrier for yourself in your mind. Because it's important that you view yourself first as a founder and then as a female founder. So think the stories that you tell yourself matter or the mindset that, at which you're approaching, approaching and you know, approaching the table or approaching we see or another founder. Because if you are feeling underconfident because of that, people around you can, um, see it, you know, uh, that you're not really confident about yourself. And you, you know, you are actually bringing up the gender problem even before the other person has brought up the gender problem. Right. So, yeah, I think, uh, it's important that we correct our, um, perspective about how we are approaching this, I think. So while there is a solution around the world, I think the solution starts with us as women. Uh, it starts with our minds and how we are viewing ourselves and how we are approaching an issue. So yeah, I think the solution lies within ourselves. While there are challenges, um, it's about also approaching it very pragmatically, approaching it with lot of strategy, I would say, you know, because there are so many advantages to being a woman. Everybody talks about disadvantages for being, um, a woman. There are so many advantages not just because, um, there is so many other value systems that you bring to an organization, but also there are funds which have carved out a portion of their fund for funding women entrepreneurs. There are, uh, VC funds looking for women partners or women investors. So there are so many opportunities as well for, uh, being a woman. It's important that, you know, you sort of grab those opportunities and not think it's a bad thing that you're a woman and you're not going to get a seat at the table. So, so it's important that we. Like I said, you know, if you're an investor, first you need to think of yourself as a, as an investor and not as a woman investor, you know, so you shouldn't be sort of gaslighting yourself before the world gaslights you.

Speaker A: Nicely put. I love those pages, uh, of uh, wearing the sassy pants. And you rightly mentioned about, um, you know, getting a seat on the table. Some women actually are building the table itself, so they don't have to get a seat, but they're actually building the entire ecosystem, uh, for. From scratch. And uh, you have also mentioned about Jim Layer's, uh, the Power of Story. So it starts from having a great story for yourself and it starts from having it in your mind first and thereafter you Know when you try to change the world, then that really percolates in the later stages as well. So I'm uh, very gung ho about the woman entrepreneurs that are coming from different geographies as we speak. I was uh, doing a little bit of research and what it felt like is that currently the Indian tech ecosystem or the tech industry is employing more than 1.5 million women and it is just growing crazily, which wasn't the case almost a decade back. So this is an excellent time for women entrepreneurs to get into um, tech, uh, VC ecosystem as well. And we see a lot of examples coming up in the next decade as well is what my personal hunches.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's going to be more and more action certainly.

Speaker A: Sure. And uh, out of your travel experiences, Shalini, uh, do you think traveling really gives you a perspective in scaling things up or in building great companies or um, you know, fine tuning your instincts as well? Because when you travel there are a lot of ups and downs, uh, you know, things might go wrong, your, your flight gets missed, sometimes you land at a place and you do not have your suitcase on. So those kind of experiences gives you a direct uh, experience of the trials and tribulations that goes through an entrepreneur's life as well. So do you believe traveling has a direct correlation with the kind of person or an entrepreneur and the kind of company they build?

Speaker B: Certainly, I think, um, there are many, uh, many, many takeaways. I think even if things going wrong in your travel or things going wrong, uh, when you are having your own startup, I think you're never prepared for a lot of these things. Right. And a lot of people, new things are thrown at you every single time that you're out there. Travel for me at least has definitely helped me in two different ways. One is of course for self, uh, introspection. You get a worldly view of um, uh, things around you, how people are living and there's a lot of humility that you develop and empathy that you develop. Uh, it depends which part of the world you are in or even if, even if it's just India alone. Right. I mean because we're such a diverse country each uh, place like I, you know, right from going to Kashmir to, you know, going to UP or Bihar to you know, being in Bombay. They're all so different. We all live so differently every day. And um, so there's so much of learning that comes in visiting each of these uh, countries and, and at the end of the day you realize life is so fragile like if you go to Kashmir and you're seeing like so many like Indian army people on the road, and that's such a normal thing for people living there, right? And just realize life is so fragile and we are, we are making all these mass plans, big plans, and then you realize you're just a tiny drop in the ocean, right? So there are a lot of these worldly, uh, perspectives that I, uh, pick along the way. Like, you know, since you mentioned, um, Israel trip and losing my baggage there, for me, it was, I didn't have my stuff for like one week and it was, it was just there at the airport and I didn't get it back for one week. And then you just realized that I needed so little to survive. I didn't need my eyeliner, I didn't need my fancy clothes and I didn't need any of it, you know, so. And it was difficult, but, you know, but I'm saying that you realize that there's so much, so little that you need to actually thrive and to survive and you don't actually need two big suitcases. And uh, that is one part of it. And the second part of it, when you talk about work and so on, especially if you're in VC or if you're working as a product manager somewhere, um, the best learning comes with, uh, traveling also because you're so close to the consumers that you're actually building for. Uh, say for example, if it's a shampoo product building for a tier 2 market, you know, and if you're traveling there, you actually live that person's life, um, in some way or the other. You're understanding what they eat to what they wear to where do they shop, what is their average spend per day. And um, so it's, so it's really important that you connect best with your customer, uh, or the people around, uh, around you for, you know, for the product or the, even, even the problem that you're trying to solve, right? If you're trying to build a solutions company or services company, as an entrepreneur, it's important that you understand. So it's. So it calls for a lot of travel, uh, to be experiencing, uh, those things, you know, the pain points of people or the problems that they have and how you can solve for it. And what's even better, uh, time to travel is when you're figuring out what's the next thing that you want to do in life and you don't have any agendas. I think that's an even better time to travel because you make so many observations which may become an inspiration for what you do next. So it's important that uh, you put yourself out there, meet multiple people. It could be local people or your friends, connect you to somebody in that city because, um, there is something called as uh, serendipity. Right. So how do you make that um, happen for yourself? Um, unless you're traveling? So, yeah, I'm a big fan of lessons, uh, from traveling.

Speaker A: Yeah. And um, uh, two things that I really loved. One is that towards the end of that particular chapter, you said that, you know, when you travel light, you realize that, you know, there are less baggages and you can really explore a lot of things and you can be in the moment to experience things as well. And um, uh, the secondly I'm very interested is that the things that you learn from travel, you can take it for life. A lot of entrepreneurs from different parts of the world, uh, whether you, you have mentioned about Steve Jobs, everyone had traveled just between their times when they were clueless and they were exploring a bunch of things. So maybe, um, these two elements of travel, uh, go straight into uh, entrepreneurs, um, Kitty or his um, arsenal to build scalable things. So that's an interesting one. And um, uh, lastly, you spoke about, um, uh, moving forward. Mofo. So, uh, tell me, um, a how would uh, like Shalini would like to move forward in this coming decade? Because this decade is a very exciting decade. Right. India is booming. There's so many global things happening. And secondly, uh, what would you recommend some of the millennials who are at ah, similar junctures in their life's trajectory where they're trying to shape their next career milestone or are trying to take a next big bet. Uh, what would you recommend to them?

Speaker B: So I think, uh, what the next uh, decade for me would look like is identify a, uh, purpose which really aligns with my uh, values or value system and try uh, and build around it. I've been really passionate about people, uh, development. You know, how can people become, you know, like personal development engines of their own, right? How do you give them the tools for it? So it doesn't matter if you are a woman or an entrepreneur or even if you're trying to do your own startup, but how do you sort of become your own um, personal growth engine? So that is, that is a space that I'm really passionate about and exploring and I think a lot of things around the book also talk about it in some way or the other, uh, loosely does. So that's a space that I'm exploring So I don't know in what form or out there it will be in my own platform, or it could be working with a fund and doing that, or maybe it's another book. I don't know what shape it's going to take, or maybe it'll take all the shapes that I just mentioned. But that is something that I'm working on. And, um, in terms of leaving a message out there for all the, uh, millennials, I would say that, uh, being clueless or being stuck, uh, is an amazing, uh, space. I'm an amazing time. Uh, it's a good thing that you are clueless. And probably. I wouldn't say that five years ago, maybe I'll say that now. It gives you the freedom and the flexibility to try anything that you want to be. And, um, it also brings so much of learning because, you know, you can open your mind to different possibilities and follow your curiosities as well. Because if you're not clueless and if you're busy doing whatever you're doing, there are so many other things around you that you miss out on because you don't have time or you don't feel the need to be exploring new things. So I would say that it's a beautiful state to be in because you can be anything that you want to be. But if it's big or small, it may not be your big name avatar. It is maybe a small avatar, but you realize it's a form of your true expression, or it, uh, is something that gets your mojo going, right? And so, yeah, I think being clueless is a beautiful state. But don't just stop there. You know, take that step forward and do what you need to do.

Speaker A: Excellent. And, um, congratulations for your first book. And, uh, I'm super confident that, uh, you will be, um, releasing a bunch of other books this decade. I do not have any doubts on that. And, um, I'm just curious. What, uh, were some of your favorite books? Of course, you have referred a lot of. A lot of them while reading your book. The best part I loved in the storytelling arc was, uh, you refer to more than 20 books. Uh, so it's like getting, um, you know, small snippets from all those books combined into one, uh, book itself. So that was a nice one. Uh, but what were some of your favorite books or authors that you really, um, you know, admire and you'd also recommend to some of your listeners?

Speaker B: I think there are, uh, uh, one or two books, especially if you're talking about this particular, uh, genre. Um, one is um Designing youg Life by Connect. And the other book that I really like is uh, Cal Newport's um, Be so Good they Can't ignore you. That's another bookend, uh because. And, and I like Cal Newport's work as well because it really concurs with me as well as the book itself. Uh, it talks about passion or the concept of passion is very damaging to a person. And uh. Which is uh. Which is the space that I operate in as well. So yeah, so that, that, that I really enjoy.

Speaker A: Awesome. Surprisingly you know I was there in one of the clubhouse room where uh. Mark Anderson said that your passion is probably dumb. Which means that it's a bold statement. What he actually was pointing towards is that a lot of people, 99.99% of the people have absolutely no clue what their passion is. What they actually have found. And they call it as passion is just a social nomenclature of their interest and their friends telling something about it, seeing a particular movie or you know uh, getting from here and there. But deep rooted passion is um. Is not known to a lot of people in our society and in our let's say business world as well. Uh many people go through the flow and uh. He's also biased and he's also a little bit um, you know uh, very strong in his opinions. But he said that a lot of uh, value entrepreneurs uh who have really figured out their passion. You know, they've like spent decades on it. Um, of course there's a. Something that you have mentioned is like in your book about the 10,000 hours rule and people you know, practicing for 10 hours every day for three years. But people have spent decades in a particular arena and um, they are trying to build something on top of their passion as well. So uh, definitely time I feel is an um ingredient in building deep rooted passion on top of which people or entrepreneurs can build something up. And uh, it could be as invisible as let's say Vikram having beer in his childhood days. So you know, tomorrow if he builds something in the you know, let's say a competitor to Bera, then that particular element for like decade would really come into play at a later point in time. So that was a very um uh, you know, ah, different or um. Counterintuitive insight that uh. Mark Anderson from A6 and C was hinting towards. But um, thanks for uh, sharing your um, nuggets of valuable uh information Shalini. It was so good to finally uh, hear from the author itself. I love authors primarily because it's not an easy task to um. Write a book. Uh, you can write blogs, you can Write things on LinkedIn and Twitter. But, uh, being an author and publishing your first book is a totally different ball game altogether. Especially to put all these pointers cohesively and so that it is pleasant for that reader to just complete it in a day. Right? It's a difficult art. People who have done it, they know about it, and people who are in the path, they know about it. But a lot of people who, uh, do not have exposure to this publishing or writing industry have absolutely no clue. They could be commenters or critics, but, uh, they don't know the toil and the hardship that goes in publishing your first baby as an author. So congratulations for that.

Speaker B: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was indeed an exciting experience, as you said. Um, I don't come from the publishing world or the literature world, um, and I didn't know the ropes. I just was sitting on an idea that I wanted to write about. And, um, uh, I was very curious in general about people behavior and identity crisis, as well as social identity. And you'll see that there are so many people around you trying to figure out who they are every other day. Right? I mean, you'll have somebody saying, oh, dude, I'm so bored. I don't know what to do with my life. What the heck am I doing? And it is a very common phenomena. Uh, it is not something that, you know, we should ignore. There's a whole lot of books out there, content out there, telling people how they need to unleash their true potential, how they need to go and be everything that they want to be. And there are so many books who actually, uh, tell you these things only if you know what your passion is about or you know your purpose or direction. And the reason why I wrote this book is because this, this is for all those people who don't know what their starting point is. So then maybe they can go buy these other books. So. But, uh, yeah, so it was really for those people who are really lost and who are trying to make their way in the world.

Speaker A: Yeah. Excellent. And, um, uh, thank you so much for having this conversation. I absolutely enjoyed it and I'm very super confident that all our listeners will also enjoy it. Thank you so much for your time, Shalini.

Speaker B: Thank you. Shashwat. It.

Speaker A: Up. Sat.