From Owner Dependence to Scalable Roofing Business with Sej Sorathia Deribin

Speaker A: It's been nice because you're able to breathe and you're like, wow, like we're finally at a place where we've grown and we're here and we're like not mad, dashing and losing our minds and wanting to rip our hair out. I believe in my 24 hour rule. So no email, no message goes 24 hours without getting a response. If I could do it quicker, I'm going to do it quicker. And most times it's usually within 5, 10 minutes that I'll get back to somebody, if not before the end of the day, but usually max Allow time is 24 hours.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleen and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business.

Speaker C: Sage Darabin with Capital Roofing.

Speaker A: How are you Doing well, How are you, Jim?

Speaker C: I'm awesome. The last time you were here, you had, you know, gotten out of the, the, the, the, you know, high corporate America and came into roofing to help help your husband Eric and, and be part of, the, part of the business and, and clean up operations and you were, you were writing SOPs and you're, you know, kind of developing the customer experience and trying to get, you know, trying to get things off of Eric's plate. And, and, and we talked the other day and you know, now, you know, the trucks are wrapped, the team is writing their own SOPs and I, what struck me is you said, uh, Eric made a comment that he, sometimes he thinks something's wrong because his phone isn't ringing. So, uh, it's fantastic as businesses progress, right? I love this journey and that's why I really wanted to have you back on was to kind of continue the conversation because business never stops, right? It's just a continuous iteration. So what's changed? How did it go from, you know, working so hard in the business and now what's the update?

Speaker A: Well, a lot actually. You know, we've onboarded quite a few people, new people, um, we've added, you know, we've had a lot of issues in the beginning when I was first on the team and trying to get somebody to be the admin in the office and answer the phones. So we had a lot of struggle with that. We, you know, we went through about four to five different admins over the years since I first started. Only because it just, you know, we didn't get like the lack, there was a very lack of attendance. Let's Put it that way. They would show up, they'd be great. You think they'd be like, they're the gold star. And you're like, yes, finally. And then like six months in, it's, that's when things start to like start falling and they stop showing up and, oh, I'm sick. Or I, uh, just, you know, I had an admin that completely ghosted me so it didn't show up one day.

Speaker C: Oh my goodness.

Speaker A: So while we're sitting there trying to figure out what the next step is, because obviously that, you know, that was my main role in the beginning. I was the one answering the phone calls. So I was trying to hand that part out. So we finally came to the realization we hired virtual, we work through sma, uh, services, which they are phenomenal. Um, they train their admins and then we hand them our SOPs and they train them on that. And the whole transition there was great. And it has been a game changer when it comes to, uh, the admin side of things for our office because now we have someone on the phones all the time, eight to five. There's no hiccups, there's no, I'm not showing up and then I'm mad, dashing to the office, trying to get there in time. So I'm not missing any calls. So we had a lot of, you know, struggles with that. But we're finally in a good place um, with sma and it's been phenomenal. Like it's been huge for us and they like our admins. We actually had one that went out on maternity leave and I actually requested her back because I was like, please. I was like, please send her back because like, she's great, she gets it. We had a great flow going. So I'm like, no, no, I need her back. So even during that transition when she was out, the person that was in was great also. So it's been huge for us, um, in that sense. So that was one big, big chunk that came off my plate. Um, and then we hired internally we hired a bookkeeper part time which then ended up becoming a full time person. So transition from being part time bookkeeper, part time production assistant. So she came on board and now is helping our production side of things which is also then taken off another big chunk off of my plate and Eric's plate. And so it's been great being able to have the right people in the right places and um, positions to then help us elevate the company. And then it's great because they're Also, even though we had SOPs and we have everything written out, but because they're adding their own touches to it and, you know, um, as always, things change on the fly. Right? Like, you realize something was working at that point and now you're like, ah, this is not really working, so why don't we figure out a new process? And then there it's, it's great. Cause now I have people in the positions that are able to give those recommendations and make those changes and then implement them without me having to be like, okay, well, let's figure out another way. It's like, no, no, I already have the way. So, you know, it's been great because they've been kind of writing their own SOPs, which are now turning into the company SOPS, which is all just making this entire flow a lot better for us.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. That's. That's fantastic. Uh, that makes me like, think of something that it takes time to build the right team.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Right. And I think of it like, you know, a little bit from a sports analogy. There'll be a new franchise, right? And like, you don't expect that new franchise to win right away. Yeah, you expect them to. It's going to take some time. Like, this is, this is a built. These are the building years. We gotta get the right coaches, we gotta get the right players, we gotta get the right upper management team members. We gotta get the right, like, we have to have the right things in place. What's it been? Has it been about three, four years now for you in the business?

Speaker A: So, uh, this September will be eight years that I've been here.

Speaker C: Oh, eight years in the business.

Speaker A: Okay. That's kind of crazy. It goes by so fast. Yeah, it goes.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, maybe it was three or four years. Maybe it was three years ago that we, that we had our first podcast. Right. So, yeah, so it. Like that. See, like, that's how long it takes.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: I want, I want that to express that for people listening. Like, this is like, this is the journey. Right? And okay, in your, in the journey, as you were, uh, you know, going through this journey of getting the right people right seats right. You know, getting the right things in place, finding the right, like, SMA to do your admin stuff and like, doing all these things, what were there points that you're like, we got it. And then it fell apart.

Speaker A: Oh, um, yeah, A daily thing, you know, like, I mean, you're constantly evaluating what's working, what's not working. Right. Like, you think, like, all right, One moment you're like, all right, I think we have this all in the right place, and it's working really well. And for a while it works well, right? And then something will happen, some event will happen or something, some firestorm will come up, and then you're like, no, this. This is not working. So, like, now we need to re big and we need to pivot. So, you know, that, I will say is a big thing, pivoting, being able to just be like, all right, this is not working, and then, like, pivot to the next thing and not just, like, sit there and be like, oh, why isn't it working? We should try to make it work. No, pivot just right away. It's not working onto the next. Let's try something else. So I think that that's a constant for us in this business. Like, that never changes. We pivot on a. I feel like sometimes daily basis, weekly basis, monthly basis, like, we're constantly pivoting because, I mean, that's just the business. Right? Like, things are. Especially in this industry, it's changing. It's ever changing. It's constantly changing. So it's, you know, we have to keep up with that. And to keep up with that, you have to be able to pivot. What you thought was going to work may not continue to work. And so, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a daily. That's a constant thing that. That we deal with.

Speaker C: Like, it's over. This is all.

Speaker A: Trip it all up. Start over.

Speaker C: That's right. Um, how important is that? Is that admin role? You call it an admin role? You know, so what does that admin role entail, and how important is that role in the business? It seems like that's been, like, a real big focus for you.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's because that's the first touch point our customers have, right. When they're. Either they're reaching out on email or they're calling the phones, which. Mostly it's phone calls. You know, that's your first impression of the company. That's your first interaction with the company. So we. For me, that was a big, big deal because especially when the customer experience was like, my area, I knew I was like, I have to make sure that, you know, if it's communication's very clear, we're gathering all the right information. We're making sure that the customer has a great experience with us on the phone and is not like, you know, being like, I can't hear you, or what are you trying to say? I don't understand you. There's none of that. Right. It's very clear, concise. And what's great about it is that, you know, the constant, the constant communication, like we over communicate, that's a big thing for me. And that's because if we don't, then it's like, then something will happen and God knows what. And we just don't want to do that. So I'd rather over communicate than under communicate. And having an admin in that role, I'm able to have that person handle all that. Like, she knows that. You know, we send out the appointment reminder, right when we get off the phone, we send them an email just so they have our contact information and say it's great speaking with you. You know, here's, here's what we discussed, here's your appointment time, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. And then again the day before, we use a text system now, um, through our CRM system, which is great, we have Leap, so we use the texting feature in there. And that's been phenomenal because I will say a lot of people are texters. They're not phone calls, right? So they are, they may call in, but after that we get a lot of customers that are like, we prefer text communication or email. So basically, like, don't call me. So, you know, that's been great. So she's also been able to learn things in the CRM system and kind of bring it to light for us. Um, she's like, oh, we have. There's text feature on this now. And I'm like, oh, phenomenal. Great. And so she set it up, she got it going and even that even Google Reviews, right? She follows up with customers on the estimates that we send out on, um, Google Reviews. Like, they're just all over it and they're very organized, which to me, I'm like OCD when it comes to organization. So like, that was a huge, huge plus for me because I need that because I need someone. There's a lot of moving pieces for our business. Constant, like every day it's different. We get more things added on our to do list. So it's just, there's tons of moving pieces. And having her kind of keep everything organized for us has been phenomenal. And then also, you know, with the production assistant having her in place, she's keeping everything organized for us so we're all just not running around like crazy people, which usually happens when you don't have like the right people to help

Speaker C: you the that for sure that it's it, but I uh, I love hearing those roles and, and like what they're actually doing. How do you have them manage like inbound communication and, and outbound communication? Do you, do they just m, does your team just, they, you just kind of. Do they just manage it on their own or is it like, hey, these are the, you know, new leads that came in this morning that you have to call or over the weekend people, you know, sent a message or filled out a form or did something, you know, how do you prioritize that?

Speaker A: So I oversee every like I, I, yeah, I kind of still have like uh, eyes on everything. Right. Because obviously as operations you can't not like leave it to anybody alone. So we have a system. I mean obviously she does handle all the phones, the messages, emails that come in. A lot of emails do get sent to me still, especially from like older customers that have been working with me for so many years. So when they reach out to me, I'll always reply. I'll never not reply and I'll just copy her on it and then she'll take it from there. Even anything that comes in from the website, I check it, I uh, make sure it's a legit lead and then I forward it to her and she kind of manages all from there. So it's great. Like she'll come to me when she needs help or she needs some guidance but for the most part she's self efficient, does everything, takes care of all the follow ups, takes care of all the emails and communications and making sure she's confirming everything that she needs to. So it's, it's great. I mean it's nice to just be able to like kind of guide instead of being the person doing it all.

Speaker C: What has that consistency in customer communication had on the business?

Speaker A: Oh, it's been great. That's one of our top things that we always get in our reviews that, oh, the office, the staff, the service, the crew, everything's top notch. They communicate really well. Like we get a lot of feedback from customers that always say like you guys always answer your phones, you're always answering your emails. It could be Saturday afternoon and you're still responding to an email. And I'm like, well because I believe in my 24 hour rule. So no email, no message goes 24 hours without getting a response. If I could do it quicker, I'm going to do it quicker. And most times it's usually within five, ten minutes that uh, I'll get back to somebody if not before the end of the day. But Usually max allow time is 24 hours. And that's a consistent rule in this business. For us, in our company, everyone knows that we do not go past 24 hours without getting back to somebody. And that's been a huge game changer for us because people respect that, especially in the service industry where they're like, oh, you know, I call my electrician, I can't get in touch with him like 20 times and he just doesn't answer or my plumber or my roofer. So I don't want to be that. I don't want to get looped into that service part of the industry where, oh, you're just one of those that never answers the phones. You're like everybody else. No, we're not. We're very different. And we make sure that, do you

Speaker C: set that expectation up front? Do you tell the like a new customer, like, hey, just so you know, we have a 24 hour rule. Do your sales rep say that? Do your, do your, does your team express that or do you just do it?

Speaker A: So we, we do just do it. I do think now Eric does mention the fact that, you know, when he goes out on the uh, appointments and Gary as well, like our sales team, they'll mention it. You know, we communicate, we over communicate. We will let you guys know every step of the way what's going on with the project. And we do right, and that they could say it because we do it. And uh, even during, on any project that we start, like they get daily updates every day, along with pictures, along with a little summary of what's happened. So they're never in the dark of what's going on. And that's very key to our business because that's what sets us apart from everybody else.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. And it, it's, I, I, I, I've talked to a lot of contractors and, and, and in setting this up myself, like it takes some time to get the right people, the right conversation flow, the right like the right cadence of communication. Uh, it takes some time to like get that all built in. Now where you're at now what, how do you feel the perfect communication looks to a customer from the time they sign that contract or maybe even from the time they book their appointment all the way until the close of the job. Like what does that look like to you? Where, where are the key communication points that differentiate you guys?

Speaker A: So I think it's, I would say it's definitely during like the roof project itself, like the project timing and being able to communicate with them on an Ongoing basis. Like, they. When we start a project, they have all the information from the day before we start even leading up to it. Like, we're just. There's just constant touch points that they don't think. I never want a customer to think that we forgot about them because, you know, yes, we have a backlog which we're grateful for. People do wait for us because they know our work is that great, and so they'll wait for us. So sometimes, you know, and then with the winter we just had, people had to wait even longer because, you know, they may have signed contracts in November, but with the winter and us being shut down as long as we were, they were waiting at least four to five months before we were able to kick back up. But during that time, we never for a moment let them think that we forgot about them. So it was, you know, it was at least every few weeks to be like, hey, heads up. You know, the weather is still. And they're like, oh, we totally get it. We could see outside, it looks like. Like it's a winter wonderland and it's staying this way, you know, like, so they. They understood it. And then, you know, you kind of build that, like, that relationship with them, um, during that time, right? So, like, it was interesting. Like, we would then when every time we'd email, I get a little story back from the customer about, like, oh, well, this past weekend I ended up, blah, blah, blah, and this winter is just killing me. And, you know, we joke about that. So it's like you end up building, like, a relationship with these customers because of, uh, the amount of communication that you do with them. And so that's why I think it's key, regardless of where you are in it. Like, even during proposals, when we send out proposals to customers, we get tons of questions. You know, we get questions because again, you know, you could have enough spec sheets and sheets on, um, sheets attached to your proposal that explains everything. But they're still going to have questions and you're there to answer them, so making sure that you answer every single question. And then they'll be like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry, one more question. And then you'll be like, oh, not a problem at all. That's why we're here. You know, and they're like, oh, you guys are so great. Thank you so much for answering all my questions. I apologize. I was being such a pest. And you're like, no, that's why we're here. So, like, you're already building that even prior to Going to contract because the amount of time that we actually dedicate to, to that, like that is like the number one thing for us is being able to answer all the customers questions within a 24 hour rule, making sure that they understand every step of the way what's happening with their project, what the next steps are leading up to contract. Even when we get into contract, what comes next? Four weeks out from your scheduled job, what we're setting up a walkthrough, answer any questions. Here's what job's going to look like. Like it's like you get at least like 30, 40 touch points from us before we close out the job. So and even then, you know, after that we have maintenance programs with everybody. So it's like you're still touching point. Then we send out, you know, we still do our customer gift boxes that we do. So we send them out like about a month or so later. So then they get this cute little surprise box that has capital roofing swag in it, umbrella little card, a handwritten card that says thank you for choosing us, spending that time with us and spending your hard earned money on us, you know, and making sure that you got the uh, greatest experience. And then that's a touch point. Then end of the year again we do holiday cookies. So we send out homemade amazing cookies that my best friend makes. They're phenomenal. And we've gotten rave reviews even that. So like customers that we worked with in January, February, now we're touching point again at the end of the year. They probably forgot about us by then, but guess what? They definitely didn't. At that point when they're sending me a text or an email to be like, oh my God, those cookies were phenomenal. Um, thank you so much for thinking of us. Right? So, and then that turns into other, you know, when people ask in Facebook groups and group texts and communities, oh, we have a roof leak. Like who do you recommend? Oh, capital. You've got to go to capital Capital. And that's it. Right? Like so we're building. To me, it's like that's my type of marketing. It's, it's communication is my marketing. Because you are going to learn who I, um, am by me over communicating with you, talking to you and making sure you understand everything and making sure that you don't think that you're ever forgotten, which is like a big thing, especially in this industry. Right. You'll sign a contract, then like you won't hear from somebody for like months on end and then they'll Be like, oh, I'm coming tomorrow to do your job. And you're like, wait, what? I didn't even. Like, what are we talking about? Right? So, like, we don't do that. That is definitely not our mo. We want to make sure that you get the right experience from start to finish and even after that. Because you won't forget about us.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's why I think education is like the biggest marketing piece to your company.

Speaker C: Uh, um, that makes perfect sense to me. And to me, that's brand. Brand is the feeling that, that people get when you. When they experience your company and, uh, think about your company. And that communication is how you're. You're building those feelings, right? You're. You're building that trust. You're building those feelings that. I mean, that's fantastic. And so many. It's such a differentiator because so many contractors do not. It is. It's always, it's always the, hey, you know, like, yep, we'll be there tomorrow. And it's like, whoa, what's going on here? Haven't heard from you.

Speaker A: What do you mean?

Speaker C: Haven't heard things for months. And then, boom, you're here. Um, it's so crazy. So that I, uh, want to go into a couple of things. So you have the over communication through the customer experience, but then you have your admin working, you have your production assistant. You have these people going in. One of the things that you mentioned was the maintenance program. So you're like, everyone goes on the maintenance program. I don't know if it's everyone, but you have a maintenance program which allows you further communication beyond just that initial, uh, interaction. Tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker A: Yeah. So obviously, you know, with any new roof or any, Any. Ah, sorry, excuse me. New roof project that you do, right? You have a warranty, and the warranty you have to upkeep with maintenance, which a lot of people don't realize. They're like, oh, why do I need maintenance? I have a new roof. But to maintain that warranty and upkeep it, there's maintenance. Just like a car with anything, right? You need to maintain anything that you have. And so with our closeout documents, they get their warranty and then they get. We include the first year mainten with our full roof contracts. So you automatically get that. So we're automatically going to be in touch with you in one year because we have your maintenance app, right? So once again, we're going to touch point with you, communicate with you, to let you know, hey, this year's free, but here's the quote for next year. So you have it. We'll reach out to you again next year to schedule this. And most times because again, we have a system in place that every year we get a little notification that they're up for maintenance. We reach out, we schedule the maintenance, and then we close that out. We let them know we'll be in touch with you in about a year. And nine out of 10 times, most of them move forward with the year after. Right. And so, and every year that we've reached out, they've continued to do it. And so we've continued to do that with our customers. And then there's folks that also get put on our maintenance plan that uh, have older roofs that they want to prolong it. They know they're going to replace it, but they need maintenance to, to make sure that nothing happens. So they get put on a three to five year maintenance plan. So then those folks are also every year getting a touch point from us, making sure. And the great thing is like, they don't have to reach out to us because we have a system in place that automatically lets us know. And we're already reaching out to us. I've had customers, they're like, oh man, you beat us to the punch. And I'm like, yeah, well, I have you on our schedule. You're in our system. So I get my notification to no one to reach out to. And so they're like, oh, that's so amazing. You know, like even that I took it off their plate, right? They didn't have to think about it. Yes, I took it off their plate. We took it off. And you're getting an email, we're scheduling it for you. You don't have to think about it. And it's done. Making it very easy for them.

Speaker C: Making it easy. Yeah. And that's the. No one wants, no one wants a, uh, challenging buying experience. Right. I like to say if your customer is wondering, you're losing. So if they're, if they're wondering, man, um, I know there's, I think we're up on this one year maintenance thing. I don't know what's going to, you know, like, if they're even thinking about that, you're already losing. Like, and so it sounds like you're already, you're so far ahead of, you're getting so far ahead of it that it's like, oh, yeah, that's great, that's great. Yeah, you were on my mind. But I don't Even have to think about it. That's fantastic. Um, that in. I think a lot of, a lot of contractors might have, uh, some reservations about taking these admin roles and having them outside of their office. What was that thought process for you guys when you were doing that? And I know it feels good now because it's working out, but like, what was that? Did you guys have that, have some of those conversations?

Speaker A: Like, we, we went back and forth. There was a pros and cons list, There was, uh, a, you know, what are we going to veto? What are we not veto? Like, it was constant back and forth. I think, especially with Eric and I, because, you know, there is something to say about having someone in the office, right? I mean, I know everyone's virtual now, everyone likes to work from home, and that's great. But there is something to be said about being in the office. Decisions get made quicker, things happen faster. Like, it's just, it's easy, right? You walk out of your office, you just say something to the person instead of being like, hold on, let me call whatever. So it was a little bit of a back and forth on, um, is this the right move for us? Should we do this? And I was like, well, what, you know, the, um, end goal for us is obviously we want to make sure someone's behind the phones, answering the phones, that can gather the information properly, talk to the customer the right way, like how we expect it and have that experience be that right now we found with sma, we were getting all of that. And so I'm like, the, and the fact that it wasn't like someone I found off of the Internet randomly, right? This is like a set company. They're doing a lot of the training already and taking a big chunk of that off my plate. And then all I gotta do is kind of like, you know, while we're getting transitioned in, like set up weekly calls with them to make sure that they're getting everything. So it was just like that whole, like, experience was phenomenal. It was way better than we expected. So I thought it was going to be a little bit of a struggle. I thought there was going to be, you know, language barrier, obviously, but there was nothing. It was great. So I'm not sure if this would have worked out if I would have just randomly found someone on the Internet doing it. I think because I used a proper service, it worked out the way it did. So I think that is what helped it a lot. Um, but yeah, no, we were very hesitant. And because my first thing is before I Even found sma. I'm like, where do I even start looking? Right? Like, what do I just like go on indeed or go whatever. And then there's so many. There's like, upwork all those websites and you're looking and you're like, how do I. Like, now I gotta sit there and interview everybody. Then I got to sit there and try to train everybody. I'm like, oh my God, sounds like you know. And they're not in person, which makes it even harder because at least in person training is a little bit better because you're right there next to the person. So a lot of that went into the decision making and then quite honestly, after like the fifth admin, we were like, I can't, we can't do this.

Speaker C: We gotta try something else. Yeah, we gotta do this.

Speaker A: So we gave up and. And luckily I had another colleague of mine in the industry. She mentioned sma and I was like, wait, who? And then that's when I got introduced and that was it. That after that the decision made was made a lot quicker because we had that proper service.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Before we carry on with the episode, let's give a shout out to one

Speaker C: of our sponsors, roofers.

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Speaker A: Results may vary that after that the decision made was made a lot quicker because we had that proper service.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's finding someone that, that knows what you do and knows, uh, a lot of times knowing the industry and things like that, that's where we had more success with our marketing agency which is now job Nimbus Marketing. But when it was root for marketers, you know, I mean that we only worked with roofing companies so we understood the market so well. Um, but I want, I want your thoughts on this. I've been having this conversation recently in the rsa, the roofing Strong alliance and in some of my coaching sessions there. And it applies to anything we outsource. So uh, when you outsource marketing to an agency, when you outsource work to crews, to subcontractors and uh, now it seems the same way here with when you're outsourcing your admin to a bp. I don't know if they consider themselves a BPO service or whatever you want to. However we want to frame that right to an outside service. What I like, what I want, what I really have developed a strong opinion on is really what you're outsourcing. Like, we want it defining what you're outsourcing. You're defi. You're really outsourcing the hiring of the person, the training of the person and the management of the person. Like, and so what I heard from you was kind of similar to that. Like we tried it ourselves, we tried the hiring. We just, just couldn't get it to stick. We couldn't get like the right person and, and maybe we got a person in and then like we weren't able to train them properly or maybe they were like whatever it was. And then you have to manage that person and sometimes they show up and sometimes they don't. You know, like there's all of those other things that. That's been on my mind a lot. Like that's what we're really doing. And I, uh, really hate or dislike the. Or let me not put it that way. I think that a lot of contractors, uh, when they outsource something they feel like it's some magical thing is gonna happen. And of course, you hope for that. But like you did, you went all through these. All of these services, and you're like, which one? Fortunately, you landed on a good one, right? And it worked. But sometimes you might have to go through a few to get to the right one. Just like with subs, right? Like, sometimes you have to go through a few to get to the right ones. And I think that roofing contractors don't look at other outsourcing the way they look at their subs. So when you're outsourcing to subcontractors to build the roof, you have checklists, you know, what outcome you're trying to achieve, you want to, you know, you know, how clean you want the job site to look afterwards, you know what, you know, uh, how much material you don't want wasted, you know? You know what I mean? Like, you have these things in place, but I think when we're doing other things, like outsourcing other aspects of our business, whether maybe hire a fractional CFO or you, you know, uh, outside accounting service or something, right? Like, uh, I don't know. That's just the way I've been looking at it lately, right?

Speaker A: I think, you know, when you're doing these things, you got to look at, like, the end goal, right? Like, what, What. What is that end goal? Like, are you trying to, you know, buy back some of your time? Are you trying to take things off your list? Are you trying to grow as a company and maybe, yeah, okay, an ideal world, you have this amazing team in house. Everyone would be, you know, under your wings and under your roof and it would all work out great. But sometimes, uh, it just doesn't. And again, being, you know, going back to, like, what I said, being able to pivot fast and make m. Go on to the next step is very important. And now it's like, there's so many services that are being offered out there that why wouldn't you take kind of advantage of that, right? I mean, there's. Why take the liability yourself as a company and as an owner when you can hire out a third party to do a lot of that stuff, right? So, like now, like, with sma, I don't have to worry about, like, workman's comp and insurance. Like, I don't like that. That part is completely off. Like health insurance, all of that, right? Like that. Because I'm paying for a service. Same with our website company and social media. Like, you know, we. We're using builders of authority. We did for our website they're great. Um, you know, they're running our Google Ads and they're doing all that and it's been phenomenal. And it's, they're doing everything on the back end and they update me on our bi weekly calls and I kind of lead the direction, but like they kind of handle all the back end and I don't have to worry about now, you know, me having to figure out what it exactly needs to be done on the back end. Right. It's, they know I just tell them what I want and then they kind of take care of it. So it's like the same thing even with the social media person, you know, you hire like a videographer, but you gotta kind of be the guidance of it. But then they know what they're doing because that's their expertise level. So for me, even in, when I was in corporate banking, it's like, even that point, like I knew who was good at what they did and who wasn't and I would play on their strengths, right? So like even on the team, like, even as a team, we're a small team. But that's because we do outsource quite a bit and, but we outsource the right people, the people that are going to complement us, uh, not the other way around. Right? So like, I'm not just going to outsource something that's going to be crap. Right. I don't, I don't want to just outsource, just to outsource. No. Like I'm going to be very mindful about what I'm outsourcing, who I'm outsourcing to. Are they good? Do they, are they at the same level of the standard that we're looking for? So it's all of that that goes into it. And I think, you know, a lot of, at least business owners letting go is a really hard thing to do. Um, I could say the same thing. Even with my husband, he had a really hard time in the beginning just letting go, which I understand, right? Because before if you did let go, God forbid, everything would be like a clusterback, excuse my language. Um, but it would just be a hot mess, right? So like now, but you gotta trust it. And then once you have the right people, the right resources, the solutions, then you're able to let go and kind of breathe a little and then be like, okay, I think, I think we got this right? And listen, if not you pivot and you move on to the next right? That's it. And that's it. That's Got to do what works for you and the company and your end goal. Because if you know, okay, like my social media, my website, that's huge for me and I need to be able to do that. So I'm going to hire all these people in house and then give them, like, direction, but then expect them to go and run with it. Well, no, they're not going to do that because that's not that. You need to train them to do that, so. Or you hire an external third party. Be like, here's my goal. You're like, all right, I got you. Like, I know what I'm doing, right? So here's what we're going to do with what you gave me. This is what I'm going to tell you we need from you. And that's. And then you're elevating that, right? So now you're bringing another third party that's going to be at the same level standard that you are. And then it kind of helps you go towards your goal better.

Speaker C: Yeah, you. You have to know where you're, where you're heading and what you want to achieve. Um, even, you know, in certain aspects. You might even get granular on what type of results that you're looking to achieve, like from a marketing agency. Hey, we gotta be within this customer acquisition cost range, right? Like, we gotta be in here somewhere. If we're outside of here, we gotta talk about this. Or at least that's part of your management. It sounds like you, you still stay active with the management of these things. You're still, you're overseeing the people that you hired. You're not just going, all right, I hired someone. Right.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. And that also, right? I mean, well, you can't. Right? Because it's your, it's your business, it's your goals. So you can't just step out completely. Otherwise, like, uh, that's a free for all. Then at that point. And everything will go like, you know, chickens with their head cuts off. Like, you can't do that. So you want to make sure you're still, you know, overseeing every. Like, you have to. Right. It's your business. You want to make sure everything's flowing. Right? And the only way to do that is to make sure you're overseeing everything. Now, that doesn't mean that you're intertwined in every little thing and touching on every little thing, but you want to make sure that high level, you're providing the guidance, providing that leadership to make sure that everything's flowing the right way.

Speaker C: Yeah, I Think it's the same like, I really believe, like I've really come to this analogy to that. I think like where roofing contractors are most comfortable is in it with, with their subcontractors, but they just don't treat the other things the same way. Like, and I think that that's if you treat the other, the other aspects the same way. But it, you know, and if you, if you're going to build an in house crew, you're going to, it's, that's what you're building. If you're building an admin team, you're building an in house admin team, you're going to have to hire, train, like you're going to have to be good at some things and you're going to have to take on the responsibility of the insurance and the workman's comp and the like. All of that, uh, you know, is great considerations. Let's move on to talk a little bit about building that support from the production and finance side. You, you know, you talked about adding, you know, formal bookkeeping and production assistant. You know, what did those roles, you know, kind of take off of your plate or take off of the, the other team's plate?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, a ton. So I mean prior before when it was like really just me, it was me overseeing the production, the admin, the bookkeeping. And I'll be honest, like, bookkeeping is not my strong suit. Numbers are not my thing. Like unless it's in a proper spreadsheet. Fine, cool. But like I'm not like QuickBooks. And that whole system drives me nuts. So it wasn't my level of where I wanted it to be. I knew where the vision was and where I wanted our finance to look like and be able to pull reports and get job lists, like everything, you know, all the details like this, the material list and costs for per job breakdowns and our P and L all of was, you know, it was between me and an accountant before and I had a spreadsheet and like I couldn't keep up. It was just a lot. I mean it took up quite a bit of my day. And then explaining to the accountant, he's like, okay, your spreadsheet doesn't make sense. I'm like, I can't. I was like, this is just, I was like, I hate this. I hate numbers. So, you know, when Eric and I were talking, I was like, we, I think we need, if we want to get this in a place where, you know, we could just pull a P and L report very quickly. At a print and press print. Like we need to hire somebody that can clean up our QuickBooks and do this the right way. And so that was the first step and it was great because she ended up being my best friend that ended up hiring. Um, so she started off part time for us and then, you know, she got our system in such a nice place. It's so easy to use now. I can see everything, it's nice and organized. I'm like, huh? I was like, this is cool, right? And so we got to that point and then, you know, she's like, well, I could do more. And I'm like, really? And I was like, okay. And so then I'm like, well, I was like, then you can help me with the production side of things. Because, you know that's, you know, once we go into contract, there's that permit application, the building permits, the parking permits, the customer walk through communications. There's a lot that goes into that as well. And so it was great because then she kind of got involved in that. And then she started helping our production manager, creating all the material lists for the different jobs, keeping everything nice and organized. So she was in the office, you know, she was here to take care of anything, place any orders for any materials we needed. So it took off stuff off of both Eric and Gary's plates where they were able to kind of hand things off, right? And that's always the goal, right? Like they're out there, they're with the customers, they're customer facing, they're managing the crews, they're managing the jobs. And that's, that's a huge part of this operation. So having somebody now in house, in the office that's behind the computer can handle a lot of things. It helped tremendously because that now they didn't have to come back from being in the field all day at like 3 o' clock in the afternoon to then start putting together material list, putting together like orders and shooting out emails to different supply houses, a different order. It's like it's already being taken care of. So that right there saves time, process. It's just everything. So it just. And um, that way for me also now I'm not the one that's constantly having to email the customers or fill out the permit applications or do the parking. Like all that has been taken off. And so now again, I do oversee everything, but I kind of can step back and guide instead of doing so. That again, huge time saver.

Speaker C: What, what advice or uh, what is, what is your, like how do you manage your day now, like, what are the your job duties versus like now that you have these things in place, how do you look at your role? How do you look at your job duties versus you did in the past?

Speaker A: So I mean, uh, again I, I mean I'm still heavily involved in everything, so it's hard to kind of step back. I will say that that's a part of the letting go that I'm still kind of struggling with. So, you know, again, I'm still involved on, um, I'm copied on all the emails. So I'm kind of in the loop of what's happening. I'm still guiding everybody on what's going on. And even with the admin having her there, obviously she can't answer all the questions thoroughly or even know what to answer with the customer. So that's where I do step in. So a lot of my day goes to talking to customers on the phone, answering any questions that they have. Kind of like, uh, an inside sales role, like making sure that, you know, they know whatever questions they have on the proposal or time frames, anything like that. I'm kind of that go to, um, so I kind of focus on that part of it. I still, you know, again, kind of oversee production, making sure everyone's aligned and knows that we're flowing this way. This is what's happening, this is schedule. Um, and then a lot of it now is networking and marketing. So I've been kind of shifting gears more towards that, making sure, you know, I've kind of been, um, I've been involved in networking groups. So I just kind of maintain that I make sure I go out, meet new people constantly out there kind of networking with different groups of people, whether they'd be PTO moms or they'd be people in the town or they could be people in the industry, outside of the industry and the construction industry as a whole. So I'm always kind of out there. And then, um, we started doing a little bit more marketing now, social media marketing. So working with that team and making sure we get the videos out, get all that stuff going. So that's still a. It's, it's interesting because that's still a big part of what we want to do, but it's not like the biggest thing that we're focused on because, you know, to me, as much as I believe, yeah, everyone's gotta be on social media. You, uh, have to have a presence for us. I feel like networking is our best marketing tactic because social media is great, but like, I'M sorry, roofing is not sexy. Roofing is, you know, it's kind of like, I mean, like, listen, we could try, but, uh, you know, it's like, you could so talk so much about roofing. I mean, yeah, you know, people know who we are. We're getting out there. We're still out there. But I think for us, like, being and getting introduced to the right people, meeting the right people and then making sure we have the constant touch points with those people is what helps us more. And building that trust. Right? Like, sure, you can build that trust through social. I get it. But like, again, like, who's sitting there, really? Just gonna scroll on our Instagram page and just watch a bunch of videos on roofing and why you want to be our customer? Like, people are watching, like, you know, viral, like, TikTok dances, for God's sakes. Like, I mean, you know, it's kind of. Unless we're sitting there on the roofs doing TikTok dances, I don't feel like we're going to get that kind of engagement.

Speaker C: And so why not? Sage, like, you're not doing the TikTok dances.

Speaker A: I mean, I don't even. I don't. I just. I can't. Like, for me, like, Instagram, Facebook, it's like, that's. I'm maxed out at that. Like, that's it. Uh, yeah, on LinkedIn, but, like, that's enough for me. I can't do more than that. And TikTok, to me, I don't know, it's just too much. My daughter is on it and I'm just like, I don't know how you do, like, how's your brain not fried from looking at this? And so for us, I think, again, it goes back to the networking, I think, that I'm part of now. Um, I've always been a part of the national Women in roofing, which has been great. I'm part of the PwC as well, which is professional women in construction. So I've now opened up that network. We meet different, like, other service vendors that we meet, then introduce us to other developers. And property management companies will get our names from other developers in town. And so it's like, you know, that's what I want to make sure I do more of. And so it's getting out there, even with the local chambers, right? Like working with a local chamber. We're actually doing an event with one of the new, um, new companies that joined. She's a women's networking group out of our local town in Nutley. So Car and I are, you know, we're collaborating on an event and we're doing it at our office. So it's like doing things like that, I feel like are more important in terms of marketing than it is actually making and spending the enormous amount of money that you need to, to do proper social media marketing.

Speaker C: And really it's. You're. You're looking for the same result. Yeah, it's. You're looking at building trust with people who you don't know. And so it seems like you're like, oh, I found this direct route. I'll just go this direct route face to face, belly to belly. And, and so in your, in your strategies there, what like in your networking as you thought about this, like, okay, um, you know, you're in your, in the industry groups, but that's, to me a lot of. I don't know if that's where a lot of business comes from. Right. Like, so, you know, now you're in, you know, maybe some local type of groups. Where are you looking to network? That, that is more of a, like, would generate leads for the business versus industry knowledge and industry connections. It's fantastic to have friends in the industry like those, the people that you, the relationships that you build and the phone calls you can make when you're dealing with something. Like, there's like, that is a. Make sure you're involved in all of the associations. Right? Like, um, but where are you looking for? Where. Where are you networking for prospective customers?

Speaker A: So I think it's pretty much anywhere and everywhere, right? Anywhere I can get involved anywhere. Like, uh, right now, you know, the local chamber has been kind of my go to because they have monthly events. There's a lot of great people. So, like, even through the local chamber, we got to go speak at the high school and talk to a bunch of high school students about entrepreneurship, which was amazing. We, you know, we, we attended a job fair at the high school as well, so we got involved in the community that way. I think, you know, being involved in the community helps a lot. And then, you know, again with the brand, it's how many touch points, right? People need to see your brand at least like 10 times now I feel like even to remember it. So it's making sure that, like, we have that, right? So, like wearing the branded gear, having the branded trucks, you know, making sure like people see me on Facebook and Instagram and like, you know, making sure even if it's not the company page, they know I'm constantly promoting the company on My own personal page, right? Like, whether it be the Facebook groups in town, people will always tag me. When people are like, oh, we're looking for a roofer. Oh, reach out to Sage. She's great at Capital Roofing, right? Like, so building that, like, having that network. Because I know the people in the chamber, so now they're gonna drop my name anytime they see somebody asking for a roofer, right? Or if they know of anybody, it's just having them know who I am is great. Because right there, it's like, again, you're not going to need a roofer every day, right? That's not like, yeah, uh, it's not like you're going to go get your. You don't need a hair. Like, if it's not like you're getting your hair done every six weeks or whatever it is, right? That's different when you need a hair salon versus when you need a roofer. You need a roofer when your roof is leaking, right? Otherwise, nah, you don't really care. So. But in that time when you do need it, like, I want to make sure that all these people that do know me will say to whoever, like, oh, make sure you reach out to Sage at Capital, because they're great. Like, she's who you need to talk to. She'll set you up. Uh, her husband's amazing. Eric's great. Like, they're a great team. And so that's like, what we want to leave with people. And so it's making sure, you know, they know who we are and we're not. I don't want to be, like, so much in your face either, right? Because, like, again, like, we've discussed, we've gone back and forth about doing mailers, doing all these, like, spending all this money on doing, like, all these social media Facebook ads and this and that. And I'm like, uh, it's. It's expensive. It's really pricey. It's expensive, and you don't get what you want out of it. And we tried Facebook ads and we. We tried a beat testing. We. We did it all. And I was just. The calls we were getting were like, ridiculous. And I'm like, I don't even understand all these people. How do they just, like, didn't realize they called us. Like, what happened? And so I was like, x this out. I'm like, I'm not spending and wasting all that money on this, you know? And so we've kind of taken a step back from doing all of that and paying for. To boost all These social media things and just focusing really on our network and building upon that network, making sure we meet the right people that can introduce us to other people. So it's just. And, you know, making sure that they remember you. So that, that's, that's the main thing that I've kind of been focused on. And so it's. Whoever I'm talking, I could be talking to anybody. Parents especially, right? I mean, like, all, uh, my kids. Like, my younger daughter just graduated fifth grade, she's going out to middle school, you know, so all these activities were happening, and I was with a bunch of parents constantly. So it's like, you know, they know who I am, they know what I do. So it's like making sure they remember that, right? And anytime that any of them have had any roof issues, they've called us. And so that's exactly what we're looking to do more, right? And making sure that we get to that point. And I'm also learning how to play golf, you know, so maybe that'll help. Take caught on, um, the golf course. You always.

Speaker C: That's where the deals get done. That's where the deals get done. That's what I, that's what I hear.

Speaker A: I've heard that throughout my banking days. And so I'm like, maybe things happen in the roofing days.

Speaker C: That's right. It's. It has to, right? I mean, that's where deals are done on the golf course. I mean, so I want to get back to the, the beginning of where we opened and, and how, you know, you told me Eric was, you know, standing at home one morning and he felt strange that his phone wasn't going off. You know, why was that? Why do you guys feel that? Or why was that such a meaningful moment for you guys?

Speaker A: Well, I think for us, that just showed growth, right? I mean, more than anything else, that showed that we actually grew and we're at a place where we could actually go away, even for a couple days during the week if needed. And our phones won't be blowing up the entire time. We can go on vacation and know that things are being taken care of. And yeah, of course, listen, again, it's not like we're disappearing off the planet, right? We're there. We're here to guide. We're here to answer questions. But like, the constant. What it used to be like five years ago, where every day at like 7am would hit, it would be 6:59 sometimes, and his phone would ring and it would just be constant, like firestorm, firestorm Firestorm, like one after the other. And you're just like. And you're both like, constantly scrambling to get things done at like 7am you're like, oh, shit. All right, I'm gonna do this. All right, you take that. I got this. And so it's been nice because you're like, you're able to breathe and you're like, wow, like we're finally at a place where we, we've grown and we're here and we're like not mad. Dashing and losing our minds and wanting to rip our hair out. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like we could take a breather and we can chill. And so that was like a big, it was, it was a, uh, nice. It was funny because I don't think he remembers it as much as I do because I keep playing that moment. I'm like. Because it like it was a reminder to me like, wow, you know, we've, we finally, we're there. We finally got it and we're not. And again, we're not. Still not there. We're not 100% there, but we're there, you know, so it's like we're getting there and we're closer to that next step or closer to, we're just closer and closer to our end goal.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's closer to that, that old, that analogy of working on the business, not in the business. Right. It's that when you are, when your whole day is reactive, when that phone goes off at 6:59 and your whole day gets dedicated to whatever is coming in, it's really hard to make the next good decision and work on the long term vision and all of those things. It's really, really, really challenging. So I could see that, that, that, that's fantastic. So, you know, what advice would you have now? Have, have, have, you know, kind of getting to that point. What advice do you have to, to contractors who, who still have to wake up to those 659 text messages and phone calls?

Speaker A: Keep going, Keep going. And let me tell you, pivot as you need. And the biggest thing is, I will say outsource as you need because that, it will change your life. It will, it will eliminate a lot of unnecessary stress off, uh, of small things that you can get rid of and buy back some of your time, you know, so that, that's a big, big thing. But I will say keep going because it does get better. Even though you'll have issues. You'll have issues, but it does, it does get better. Awesome.

Speaker C: Uh, Sage, thanks for coming back on again. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast. Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success pod. For more valuable content, visit roofingsuccesspodcast.com While there, check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also, join the Roofing Success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe like share and leave a comment.

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