The Final Episode of Rocketship.FM (for now)

Speaker A: Hello, world. It's Mike Belcido, your host of Rocketship FM M. And this is it. Today is going to be the last episode of Rocketship fm. Um, this isn't clickbait. I'm not, uh, trying to trick you here or anything like that. Um, this is going to be the end of a pretty crazy run, and I'll share more of what I'm talking about right after we roll this intro. Welcome to Rocketship FM M, the podcast where we bring you all the important stories in the world of tech today. I'm your host, Mike Belcido. All right, I don't want to bury the lead too much here, um, but we do have some sponsors to thank. So before I get into today's episode, let's take a moment to hear from our spons.

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Speaker A: Okay, the last episode of Rocketship FM. Um, maybe not forever, but for a very long time. This isn't a trick. I'm not trying to, you know, get you to listen to the episode, and then I sort of bait and switch into something else. Um, it's true. I have decided to put a pause on Rocketship FM for now. This is going to be the last episode of Rocket Ship for probably a long time, if I'm being honest. Um, I don't think forever. I do think that, uh, there will be episodes released in the future at some point, but we've been going pretty darn hard on a weekly cadence for the last several years. Um, I've been doing it solo for the last several months, every single week, and I've really enjoyed doing it. However, this is the. The right time for me to put a pause on things, and I'll tell you why. Um, and I'll share a little more detail on that. And first, though, I feel like I need to maybe Give a little bit of a history lesson about Rocketship fm. Um, because this has been something that's existed for now over 10 years, if you could believe that. This podcast is, has been a regular recurring podcast for over 10 years now. And it's gone through several different incarnations, it's gone through several different stints, um, with different hosts. But for the last 10 years, we've brought you stories from all over tech, from more recently, all over product, uh, product management. And it's gone through its times, it's gone through its peaks and valleys, if you will. But to give you a little bit of a history, Levin. Rocketship FM was started not by me, but it was started by Michael Sacca, Matt Goldman and Joelle Steiniger. They started Rocketship FM M with episode number one featuring, uh, Ryan Hoover, the founder of Product Hunt. And back in those days, I know that Rocketship was very startup focused. You know, it was trying to bring you the stories of the latest, greatest startups at the time. Um, um, those, those companies that maybe raised a million dollars on TechCrunch, you know, they'd then come onto Rocket Ship and get interviewed and tell their story. And, and that was the initial focus. Um, I, over time, that focus changed. Um, but that's how it was in the beginning. I didn't join as a host, I joined as a guest. In fact, uh, I wrote a book a long time ago, nearly a decade ago at this point, called Startup Seed Funding for the Rest of Us, it was a book about raising startup capital outside of Silicon Valley. And it's interesting because I wrote that book more of just a, as a personal challenge to myself. And also I kept getting questions from people within my startup community. Hey, Mike, you know you started this company, E Funeral. Yeah, that's right. I started a company called E funeral, uh, over 10 years ago, nearly 15 years ago. From 2011 to 2014, that company was acquired, but I was called a fail sale. We didn't really achieve what we wanted to with E Funeral. Um, but after the fact, I got asked from people within the community, hey, Mike, you launched E Funeral, you raised nearly a million dollars for E Funeral in a place like Cleveland, Ohio, in a market like online funeral planning, it's not a hot market. This, um, wasn't something that everybody was trying to get into at that time. Mike, how did you do it? And keep in mind, 2011, a million dollars, that's like $5 million today. It's not nothing, right? It, it, uh, especially when you're outside of that major tech hub. In a place like Cleveland, sometimes it's hard to even envision how you can raise that funding, especially back then, nearly 15 years ago. Um, and so I kept getting that question over and over again. And I would go to coffee meeting after coffee meeting, say, well, I don't really know, you know, I. I'll share kind of the process we went through, and this is kind of what happened. And after enough coffee meetings, I said, you know, I should probably write a blog post about this and outline it. And I started to write that blog post, and that turned into a very long blog post. And I said, you know what? There's a lot more that needs to be said here. I'm going to challenge myself to write a book. And so I wrote a book. I, in really just a few short months, wrote a book called Startup Seed. Funding from the rest of us, self published it directly onto Amazon. I got all sorts of people involved with the book. Um, you know, David Cohen, co founder of Tech Stars. He's one of the people I profiled in the book. All sorts of entrepreneurs and VCs that I profiled within that book. And once I wrote the book, I said, you know, how am I going to launch this? You know, I could put it up on Amazon, but how would people even find out about it? And so a part of my, uh, just, you know, bootstrapping way of trying to get this book out there was pitching myself to join podcasts as a guest. And I actually got on several different podcasts promoting the book, one of them being Rocketship fm. Um, but it almost didn't happen. I remember reaching out to Michael Sacca at that time and, and saying, hey, I wrote this book and, you know, I'd love to be a guest in your podcast. He says, you know, we're not really taking guest submissions, but if you want to hop on a Skype, if you can remember Skype, this was pre zoom, right? Um, but he said, hey, if you want to hop on a Skype, you know, maybe we could chat next week. And I said, well, you know, I can't do that next week. I'm in Las Vegas for work, but maybe the week after. And he said, I live in Las Vegas. And so we set up a time to meet while I was in Las Vegas. And honestly, we just hit it off. We just, you know, very quickly, you know, it was one of those things where this person, I'm like, I think I'm going to be friends with this person. And sure enough, I. I became good friends with Michael Sock. And I Did get invited to be a guest on the show and, and, um, I pitched Startup seed funding for the rest of us. I'll have to go and find that episode and, uh, I'll point it out to you after the break. But after being a guest, I stayed in touch with Michael and the team at Rocket Ship and I sort of made it my secret personal mission to send guest ideas their way of people that weren't in Silicon Valley, you know, people that maybe they wouldn't normally be considered for a podcast like Rocket Ship. And I sort of was promoting the Midwest and sending them guests here and there. And I remember I introduced them to Bob. Master Bob, of course, became a very good friend of ours at Industry the Product Conference and has been, I think he set the record for most number of talks given at Industry the Product Conference. Um, but that's how I connected with Michael. And then what happened is I ended up leaving the job that I was in at that time and I started another company. That company was called Product Collective. Um, many of you very familiar with Product Collective. We were a community for product people. And when I quit my day job and went into Product Collective full time and launched Industry the Product Conference full time, it was a, you know, scary thing to do. You know, you're not sure exactly how revenue is going to come in. At the time I'm thinking, gosh, should I have different revenue streams coming in just in case this whole Product Collective thing doesn't work out? And Michael at that time said, well, hey, you want to know what? My friends Matt and Joel, his co hosts for Rocket Ship, they were having a baby together and leaving Rocket Ship as hosts because of that. And Michael said, would you Want to host rocketship.fm with me? And the timing couldn't have been more perfect because here I was trying to get things up and running with Product Collective and, you know, it sure would be nice to have a voice out there in the, in the world of startups, in the world of product that, um, you know, that I could hang my hat on and say, hey, you know, I am the host of Rocketship fm. Was also right around that time I got asked to be an adjunct professor at Case Western Reserve University. And sure would be nice to say, hey, while I'm launching Product Collective, Mike is also a professor at Case Western Reserve University. Mike is also a podcaster of the famous Rocketship fm, as seen in Entrepreneur magazine and Fox Forbes. And, you know, the list goes on and on. And so the timing was, was great for me. You know, I, I Did become co host of Rocketship FM M with Michael. I also on the side, became an adjunct professor at Case Western Reserve University, all while launching Product Collective as a community for product managers and product leaders. And I had so much fun learning what it. What it took to actually, you know, be a host of a podcast. Um, now, when I first joined, you know, we were doing interviews with different people within tech, and over time, we started really iterating Rocket Ship. We started going season after season with. With different focuses. Uh, we had the season on Product Confessions. We had a season on Product Failures. We had a season on Product Journeys. See, we kind of lean into the whole product thing. Um, while I started at Product Collective, right. Um, but we launched all sorts of other seasons, seasons on web, three seasons on, uh, other aspects of tech. I remember one time we actually sent microphones to people within different companies and said, hey, when you start to have meetings, could you turn the microphone on? We want to know what it's like when you're in the throes of building a product, and we want to showcase that to the world. And so I had so much fun with Michael Running Rocketship FM. I think I've now been a part of nearly 500 episodes. I know with Rocketship FM, we have close to 700 episodes, and I. I've been a part of it for nearly 500 of them. And it was so much fun over these last few years. But then a thing happened last fall. Those of you that are longtime listeners might, Might know this already, but Product Collective was acquired by Pendo. Pendo was a longtime sponsor of Product Collective. And before that happened, Michael Sacca, um, I should say he actually had a new opportunity for him. He became the CEO of LeadPages, which is a tech company that probably most of us have used. So right at that same time that those things were happening, Product Collective being acquired by Pendo. Michael, uh, coming on board as CEO of LeadPages. Uh, well, a few things happened. One, Michael had to step back from hosting Rocket Ship. As you can imagine, his new adventure just took up so much time and bandwidth, and, um, he really couldn't put the time into Rocketship FM anymore. And so I continued as a solo host. And I did that at the time where I was ramping up a new role for me. Um, you know, truth be told, one that needed some adjustments. I mean, I hadn't reported to anybody for nearly 10 years at that point. You know, I. I left and went full time into product collective in 2016. And here it was October 2024. And I was starting a new role at Pendo with a lot of um, uncertainty too. You know, you never know after an acquisition how things kind of shake out. And I'm grateful that things shook out really, really well. You know. Now at Pendo, what happened is they of course acquired Mind the Product three years ago. Mind the Product was kind of a competitor to Product Collective. I remember the days where we had say, oh gosh, you know, let's get, we got to get people to our conference, not Mind the Products Conference. And we had the only two product management conferences in town. It's kind of funny looking back at that because now there's dozens and dozens of different product conferences. Every company, uh, that exists in tech seems to have their own product conference these days. Maybe not literally, but it sure feels that way. And um, but fast forward, three years ago, Pendo acquired Mine the Product. And when they acquired Product Collective, there were some questions about how things were going to fit, you know, once we joined in at Pendo. And the way it's worked out has been amazing because now Mind the Product is being refocused and it is its own division within Pendo and they asked me to lead that division. I became senior director of Mind the Product. And at Mind the Product we're now doing a number of things. Just like Product Collective, we are that community for product people, just as Mind the Product always has been for nearly 15 years, but with a bigger team than we ever had at Product Collective, with a lot of resources to work with, um, that Pendo has put in. And we now have two different conferences, mtpcon, which um, is Mind the Products European flagship conference, just took place in London. That was so much fun. I had the opportunity to be the MC of the conference and we had people like Matt Lay with us in person and uh, Emily Tate, the former leader of Mind the Product at Leah Theon and and so many more. That was so much fun. But we also have Industry the Product Conference. Many of you are very familiar with Industry the Product Conference. That was Product Collectives conference that we launched originally in 2015 in Cleveland, Ohio. That is now Mind the Products North American flagship conference. It is taking place this September and I can officially announce that we will have celebrity guest Rainn Wilson with us at Industry the Product Conference. That's right. You might remember him as Dwight Schw from the Office. He will be with, you know, he's kind, he has a podcast of his own. He's the host of Soul Boom. He was the co founder of Soul Pancake a tech media company that was acquired. So he knows the tech world really well with Soul Boom. He's become kind of a modern day philosopher of sorts. And we're going to have an on stage conversation with Rain Wilson, a philosophical conversation about technology that I am so excited for. So, yeah, industry. It's September 8th through the 10th in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm, I'm very pumped for that. But I'm sharing all of this because as you can imagine, you know, becoming senior director of Mind the Product, really now leading a team that will end up being 15 people close to it by the end of the year. Um, we also help all sorts of companies with training throughout the year as well. Private training, public training courses, that's all a part of Mind the Product. I've been a little busy, in fact, you know, moving into that role. It's really taken up almost just every hour that I really have to give, outside of coaching my son's soccer team and being a loud cheerleader at my daughter's basketball games and soccer games and uh, at my son's basketball games as well, for that matter. And so, you know, what kind of ended up happening is with Michael stepping back, me becoming sole host of Rocket Ship, all of these changes. Professionally, the only time I really have to put into Rocket Ship is on the weekends. And to be honest with you, I want to spend time with the family on weekends. And so I made the decision to really take a step back out of Rocket Ship at this point. And I know that we've gone weekly for the last several years. Um, that's going to change. You know, I maybe drop a bonus episode, a surprise episode in a few months, uh, maybe in a couple years or a few years, Michael and I will host this thing together again. Because truth be told, it was a lot more fun when it was the two of us, just two friends, being able to talk about things within tech and product, um, then when it was just myself. So I, that's, that's really the story, you know, that's, that's really the reason, um, why at this point I'm gonna put Rocket Ship on the Rocket ship on the shelf for a while. And in doing that, uh, you know, it might mean that I'm disappointing some of you out there because we're not bringing stories to you every single week. But, um, it's kind of a risk I'm gonna have to take because at the end of the day that, that few hours I have on the weekend that I'm normally putting to this, I think it's going to be better spent with family at this point. Um, so that's the story, but we're going to take a short break here, and after the break, I want to share some of my favorite memories that I've had on rocket ship and highlight some things that I think you will find interesting. Welcome back. Before the break, I let out the news that I would be putting Rocketship FM on the shelf for a while. Pretty weird to say that if I, uh, just do admit myself, but, uh, yeah, but before I do, I wanted to recall three different episodes that were maybe the most formative for me. Um, two of them I was a part.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker A: Of putting together. One of them I was not. But it was one of those episodes where it got me really into Rocketship fm, which led to me pitching Michael to be on the podcast and later become a host of the podcast. And it was an episode that Matt, Joel, and Michael did with Jason Freed, the CEO of 37signals, the company behind Basecamp. And this was an important one for me because Jason Fried is somebody that I've looked up to for quite a long time. And, in fact, he's been with us at industry multiple times. He has done virtual sessions for us at Product Collective in the past. Um, he has been a guest on the show multiple times as well. And Jason's one of these people that, you know, he is this big public figure to many within tech. Um, many of them, him almost look at him as a bit of a tech celebrity, but he's just gone out of his way to help us. You know, in particular, when we were running Product Collective on our own, you know, Jason came and spoke at our conference. I mean, there are companies that would probably pay him $100,000 to speak at their conference. He came out and said, no, I just want to do this for the good of the community. And actually, it all started with a World Series bet, when the Cleveland Indians, at the time Guardians now were playing the Chicago Cubs in the World Series. I remember reaching out to Jason and making a bet with him, um, about that World Series, saying, hey, if the Indians beat the Cubs, would you be willing to come and speak at industry? We m. I made that bet over Twitter at the time. He accepted, and I'll tell you what, the Indians were, um, winning that series three games to none versus the Cubs. And I reached back out on Twitter and said, hey, I just want to make sure our bet is still on. And I didn't hear back from him. And then, you know, what happened? The Cubs won four games in a row, and they ended up winning the World Series. And he reached back out and said, well, I guess I won the bet, but I'll still come out to the conference and I'll still speak there. And that was the first time that Jason Fried spoke at Industry the Product Conference. That was the first time we really got to know Jason Fried. And like I said, ever since then, he's just been this selfless person who's just given and given and given to the product community. And, uh, I'm so grateful for that. But it was this episode with, uh, Matt and Joelle and Michael Saka where Jason was talking about the purpose of Basecamp, and if you could believe that, I mean, now, Base Camp is this, uh, software that's been out for such a long time. It is, you know, just this piece of legacy technology, and I mean that in a good way, that many companies use to stay organized. But here's Jason in an early episode of Rocket Ship talking about the purpose of Basecamp.

Speaker D: People who you're working with have a whole bunch of things in their head. They've got ideas about how things are going, how, how's the project going, how's the work going, how's everything going? But people will not volunteer that information once they're asked about it on a regular basis. So asking people things is how you get answers. If you want answers, you have to ask questions. And, um, this is sort of a really deep insight that I've gotten from talking to a lot of different people, uh, about this problem, which is that people hear about things too late in a project. Ah, this is on my mind, but I didn't tell anybody because no one asked me about it. Um, this comes up all the time. And this isn't a new thing. This is the way people are. But we were able to, in Basecamp 3, build a tool called Automatic Check Ins, which makes it really easy to set up these automated questions that go out to your whole team on a regular basis. Could be every Monday, every Friday, twice a week, or every other week, that sort of thing, that ask questions of people, then they post answers back, which is shared with the whole team, which exposes information that's been buried in people's heads and brings it to the surface. And that insight came from talking to a lot of different people about struggles that are not tool based, they're not technology based, they're all human based. And so we've always tried to think about Basecamp in that way. How can we actually help people make progress on things? Versus how do we sort of have feature parity with another tool? It's not about what other tools are doing. It's what people actually need to make progress on things and that's how we think about stuff.

Speaker A: This next episode, uh, that I'm going to share is a very, very special one for me. This um, is actually the untold story of books dot com. At least I'll share a clip from the untold story of books.com and you know, not many people knew this story. Um, I knew it because this is a piece of Cleveland tech lore. But even people in Cleveland don't really know much about this story. But um, this is one of the very first, first episodes that I put together personally for Rocketship fm. So it's a special one to me. It's actually a two part series and it features uh, a long interview that I did with Charlie Stack. Charlie Stack, the founder of books.com and later on just a real um, just stalwart here in the Cleveland startup community. He has put together tech accelerators that helped companies get started. Um, he's dabbled in web3 from what I understand. Um, and in fact he played a big role in my personal entrepreneurial journey. When I started a company, E Funeral. You know, we were looking around for, for office space for just the two of us, my co founder Brian Chaikin and I. And then later we knew we'd be hiring ah, a few members of the team and Charlie had a company that he had wound down, but he had this amazing office space in downtown Cleveland, um, on the 21st floor of the Keith Building. Funny enough, to get to the 21st floor you have to take the elevator up to the 20th floor and then you have to find the staircase, it's kind of a hidden staircase. And then walk up to the 21st floor. Uh, I still remember when Alexis Madrigal from the Atlantic came out to interview me while I was co founder of E Funeral. And he described it like ah, becoming John, being John Malkovich meets Hudsucker Proxy to get to our office, wrote this really cool article. Um, you could find it I'm sure if you search, you know, E Funeral, the Atlantic, Alexis Madrigal, all on Google, it'll pop up. Um, but Charlie Stack said, hey, you know what Mike, I have all this space and it's just me up here. Why don't you all work from my office for a while? And we paid Charlie next to nothing to, to work in that office space. And we were there for over a year. Um, probably Over a couple years actually, now that I really think about it. So Charlie just again a real giver within the Cleveland startup community especially. But he let me interview him and he didn't do that for many people. He, he didn't really tell the story of books.com very much. Books.com was literally the first e commerce store on the Internet. Ever think about that? That's before Amazon, that's before any other store. It was books.com in Cleveland, Ohio, that was the first online e commerce shop to take a transaction over the Internet. And Charlie Stack in Cleveland started that company. Now it didn't become Amazon.com right. Charlie's not a billionaire, uh, many, many times over like Jeff Bezos. But he paved the way for the Internet to become this e commerce thing that now we just, we just assume it, it's like, oh, I go down and I see I need new coffee pods. I just pull up, you know, my mobile device ordered on Amazon and, and it's at my house within a couple of hours. Literally. Um, Charlie Stack paved the, the way for that. And we ran a uh, tw part episode of the Untold Story of books.com and I want to, I want to go to this clip where Charlie tells the story of how he first started building books.com in that early incarnation. January of 1992. Charlie ended up writing the first program which unknowingly at the time, would set the stage for what would become the first e commerce store ever and land him in the world of publishing in

Speaker C: the late 80s, early 90s. I was casting around for new ideas and because of my exploration I came across the bulletin board world which were basically a uh, modem that connected to somebody else's modem, to somebody else's computer, somebody's personal computer. And you could share a database or you could share screens or data. I wrote in a system called TBBs, which was the kind of communications enabled version of DBASE again. So I knew what I was writing and I wrote um, a database that basically let people browse books. So that was the beginning of books.com but it wasn't.com yet. There was no browsers, there was no web at all. Web had not been invented yet. This was 1992, January, and it basically was uh, a mode, actually two modems and a big database of titles that we acquired from a company called Baker and Taylor. We'll come back to Baker and Taylor a minute. But the database came on CD rom. And as a theme for some of the stories that go back to that time we use that database of books in a way it was never intended. So we did kind of the CD version of screen scraping and went down to the disk level and scraped the data out and put it into a database dbase and then uh, enabled lookup on a bulletin board board system. So at that time we had 2 million books in a database and we were having two modems which we could have two people in the store at the same time. That's how long ago it was two

Speaker A: people at a time. Think about that. Today we think of the benefit of having an E commerce store as anybody in the world could be shopping at our place on the web, as many as we can attract. But back then in the pre Internet browser days of modem based bulletin boards, at first only two people could be browsing. At any point in time of course you have to start somewhere. And that was the start of what became books dot com. This final clip that I want to play for you. Uh, this is uh, on an episode that we ran interviewing Chat GPT. Of course. I feel like the past year we've had, I don't know, all of the episodes touched AI in some way for, for good reason. I mean AI is just this thing that's really. Yeah, it's been around forever, but these last couple years it's something that's just gotten integrated into every single thing that we're doing within tech. Um, and I remember when Chat GPT first came out, I was pretty taken back by it and, and that's, you know, an early version of Chat GPT. Now, you know, it's, it's way ahead of where it was in its early incarnation. But I had this idea, you know, if I could communicate with Chat GPT, which you easily, easily can, you know, when you're chatting with it. And if I could access some text to voice technologies, maybe I could literally interview Chat GPT. And so in this episode of Rocketship fm, we may have been one of the first podcasts to interview Chat GPT. If you can find an earlier one, find uh, an episode that, where somebody else did it earlier than we did. Send it to me, I'd love to see it. I don't think that there was one when we released this episode. So I had a lot of fun interviewing Chat GPT. Of course now if you have Chat GPT on your phone, you can interview Chat GPT anytime you want. The voice technology is built right in. At this time it was not built right in. So I had to do some finagling with some text to Voice technologies and, uh, it, you know, to put this episode together, it might not have been as straightforward as you might think, but it was still a lot of fun for me. And here it is, a clip of me interviewing Chat GPT. Okay, Mike, the moment we've all been waiting for. Are we now going to interview ChatGPT? Right, yeah, I thought why not go right to the source for this episode. So, with the help of Chat GPT and well said labs, which provides text to voice capabilities, we're going to get into this interview right now. A rocket ship first. Uh, all right, let's, let's get weird. Let's get weird. All right, so Michael and I, we have questions here. We have Chat GPT opened up. We have this well said labs platform opened up. We're going to ask these questions and we're going to get answers back from Chat GPT. So, uh, I'm going to get this started. So first, Chat GPT, we're glad to have you here with us for this episode. What should we call you? Like, should we call you a specific name?

Speaker E: You can call me Assistant. I am a large language model trained by OpenAI, and I am designed to assist users with a wide range of tasks, including answering questions and providing information. I don't have a specific name as I am not a real human being, but Assistant is a good way to refer to me.

Speaker A: Assistant.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Ah, kind of a usual, but okay. Thanks for being with us, Assistant. It seems like there's a lot of excitement about ChatGPT ever since it was released. Does this surprise you?

Speaker E: As a large language model trained by OpenAI, I don't have the ability to experience emotions like surprise. However, I can understand why people might be excited about ChatGPT and other AI, uh, language models like it. These models represent a significant advance in natural language processing and they have the potential to be used in a wide range of applications, including chatbots, virtual assistants and automated content generation. Additionally, ChatGPT and other similar models have been designed to generate responses that sound more natural and human like than previous models, which could make them more appealing to users overall. I can understand why people might be excited about ChatGPT and other similar models.

Speaker A: We were actually just talking about some of the potential implications. I don't know if you remember, but you wrote a short story about my daughter Emery, and I've seen people use ChatGPT to write screenplays, write software code. What are some of the, more, I don't know, maybe unusual applications of ChatGPT. Uh, how else can it be used?

Speaker E: I can speculate about some potential uses of this technology. One potential application of ChatGPT and other AI language models is in the field of creative writing. For example, these models could be used to generate short stories, poems, or even entire novels. They could also be used to help writers with writer's block by providing suggestions for plot points, character development, or dialogue. Another potential application of ChatGPT and similar models is in the field of education. For example, these models could be used to generate personalized lesson plans or study materials for students. They could also be used to provide instant feedback on student assignments or to answer frequently asked questions in online forums or chat rooms. Overall, the potential applications of ChatGPT and other AI language models are limited only by the imagination of the users. These models have the ability to generate a wide range of text based content and they could potentially be used in many different fields and industries.

Speaker A: Well, those are some of the formative episodes that I can recall. Um, and I hope you enjoy them. I mean I, you know, I'd encourage you if you want to hear the full episode, just, just go back into the Rocket Ship archives and you could find these episodes. That last one was called Rocketship FM interviews ChatGPT, there's the untold story of books.com and then, uh, it was all the way, if you go back to 2016, the interview with Jason Freed of Base Camp. Definitely encourage you to check those out. But just some, some fun memories there. Thinking about some of the, the, the formative episodes of Rockchip FM for me. But that is gonna wrap things up for now. Not just for this episode, but for the entire Rocketship fm, um, podcast. Again, this probably isn't going to be the final episode ever. So I don't want to call it the final episode ever. I might call this the final episode of Rocketship FM for now though, because for now I have a lot that I need to focus on with my new role, uh, leading the team at Mind the Product. I have very busy weekends coaching soccer and being with my family. And I'm not going to lie, I'm really looking forward to having some time back on those weekends so I could spend even more time with them. That's going to wrap things up for now. So one last shout to the team at Evergreen Podcasts. One last big thank you to all of you Rocket Ship listeners who've made this podcast possible. A, uh, big thank you goes out to Michael Saka, my longtime co host of Rocketship fm. Michael, if you're out there listening to this episode, you're gonna have to join me once again. Again. Maybe it's a couple years down the road. Few years down the road, whatever it might be. Maybe. Maybe it's when we're both retired, sitting on a beach. And we revive this Rocketship FM N. And make this a fun thing for us once again. Um, with all of that. I'm Mike Belcito, and you've been listening to Rocketship F. Um.