The KPI conversation most RevOps teams are avoiding, with Matt Callahan

Speaker A: The answer I would give is Excel, but I'm not going to give you that answer. The RevOps tool I probably would take, and it's not because it's the greatest tool ever by any stretch of the imagination, but I use it. But I use it all the time. Uh, and that's zoom info.

Speaker B: Hey everybody. Welcome to our official first episode kickoff with me hosting the RevOps and BU podcast. And I'm super excited to have Matt Callahan here who is the VP of RevOps for Onsen. And we're going to talk about some pretty cool stuff, but I kind of wanted to have Matt, um, introduce himself and give us a little bit of background and then we will just jump into the fun stuff.

Speaker A: Hey, Tana, thanks, uh, so much for having me on your, on your show here. A very exciting opportunity. So my name is Matt Callahan. As Tana said, I'm VP of Revenue Operations at OnSent. Uh, I slowly started my career in RevOps in, uh, IBM a number of years ago and, uh, got to see what it's like to work with a gigantic, uh, tech company, uh, and the robots function since then. I, uh, was, uh, at Xerox for, uh, a few years and then some smaller, uh, SaaS companies before landing here at Onsen. Uh, we are a middle market, uh, fragrance manufacturing company. Uh, and so I, uh, get the opportunity to work very closely with the leadership team, uh, in my RevOps, uh, role. And really excited to be back with you, Tana. We got to work together for a short period of time, uh, a couple years ago, and, uh, so, uh, great to reconnect.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for hopping on today too. I mean, we've had a little bit of a chance to kind of catch up where each other has been since we both kind of moved spaces. Um, and I'll probably put a perfume order in with you eventually when I know what you make over there. But we had a really cool topic that you wanted to talk about today, which I think is something that all of us in RevOps have to deal with all the time is desert island KPIs. So, one, I would just love to know, what is your definition of desert island KPIs?

Speaker A: Well, it's just, you know, sifting through the noise, right? We in RevOps, we deal with so many different, uh, KPIs across the business. And uh, you know, it's easy to get, uh, what I like to call KPI fatigue. Um, so for me, desert island is really filtering, uh, out to the top handful of things that are most Important, uh, the things that truly, uh, move the needle. The things that we as a team can actually influence, uh, and impact. Um, and so that's really what it's all about. So, uh, you know, I think of, you know, between 5 and 10 that are particularly important to me. Um, obviously that list is going to vary by the business that you're in, right?

Speaker B: Um, absolutely.

Speaker A: Manufacturing fragrance has a set that I, that I use daily. Uh, it's not going to be the same for SaaS, so, um, but anyway, that's what I, you know, that's what I call desert island. KPIs.

Speaker B: Got it. So here, here's a good question. Uh, for you to start out, if you were stranded with only three KPIs for the rest of your career, no dashboards, no salesforce CRM, um, no spreadsheets, just three numbers, what would they be and why?

Speaker A: Yeah, great question. Um, so, uh, I think number one, um, you know, how much new opportunity, a new pipeline we're creating every week is important, right? So weekly, uh, pipeline creation would be probably one of the, one of those. Um.

Speaker B: Why is that important?

Speaker A: Well, again, that's.

Speaker B: And I, I mean, all of us know why this is important, but from your perspective, why, for anybody that doesn't understand why we're so, um, conscientious about pipeline creation.

Speaker A: Right. So, so, you know, there's so much focus on sales activity, right. As I'm sure you, uh, you know, will resonate with you, measuring things like meetings and calls. And um, for me, there's no better way to really gauge the true activity than, you know, getting a new opportunity. Um, getting what in our business we call a brief from a customer who wants to, wants to buy a new fragrance. Um, and so it's all about creating that pipeline on a, on an ongoing basis. And so for me, that's, that's how I think about, you know, activity of the sales team. Um, that's why I think it's so important. I think, um, another one that's important to me. Um, and again, this is going to vary by business, but looking at the number of new logo clients we launch each month, uh, is. Is important for us. That is, uh, fundamental barometer of growth. Right? And the health of our, of our growth engine is how many of those new, you know, new clients we're landing.

Speaker B: And then for new clients, are you considering that because more new clients that you bring in, you know, there's going to be the expansion opportunities and then your renewals that are coming in or just repeat business because I know you're in a different business model than some of Us are in SaaS where we've got that, you know, automatic subscription stuff happening.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. No, exactly. Our business is completely transactional. Um, so, you know, we really, you know, we rely on new, new clients. We have a sort of a natural attrition, uh, rate. Um, and so, you know, getting new customers, uh, in the door, uh, landing them, um, particularly in our world, which, um, you know, it does a lot of business in the B2C space, um, you know, getting those new brands on board, uh, the ones that are, you know, getting all the attention and TikTok and so on, um, that's particularly important for us.

Speaker B: So get some influencers out there on TikTok. That helps everybody right now.

Speaker A: That's right, exactly. Um, if I had to pick a third, I do. I would just say bookings. I would say monthly bookings, you know, um, you know, in our, in our business, it's again, what we call briefs. These are, these are projects that customers come to us with that say, you know, we would like you to create a new fragrance for us. Here's what we think the fragrance should smell like. And here's approximately how much, if you're successful, uh, we would be spending on it each year. You know, so that's, that's a booking for us. Um, anyway, there's. There's a number of others. Those would be probably the top three right now that I'd call out.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I guess all that really does pertain to just generating revenue. As long as the revenue is coming in the door and we're not balancing it out with the churn or cancellations or whatever that is, that in our businesses, then that's what you want to drive is just revenue.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: So for you working in RevOps, as long as you have with different business models and things like that, what do you think is the most overrated KPI right now, like in Revops that you see either? Because I see so many different things on KPIs and metrics on LinkedIn. And, you know, everybody thinks this is important and sometimes I see things that my brain can't compute, like, what is this and why? So is there an overrated KPI? Do you think that we.

Speaker A: Well, again, and I. And I know this is going to be maybe sacrilegious to some, but, um, I think. I think the, um, I think. I think counting number of calls, number of meetings, so. So activity logged in Salesforce, um, it's not that I don't think it's important. I, uh, just think it tends to get over, overemphasized sometimes. Um, and. And while it's, you know, it's. It's. It's very easy to log activity in salesforce as a barometer of, uh, actual success and progress, I think it can be misleading in both directions. Uh, people who go out of the way just to log activity, um, maybe they're not actually generating strong results. And similarly, I've seen lots of examples where, um, someone is a very strong performer in terms of delivering results, but maybe they don't always log all their calls. Uh, and so that, you know, the activity metrics, uh, is certainly something that, um, I think can be overrated.

Speaker B: I would agree with that. Do you think that there is a healthy balance, like, especially for leaders? Because, I mean, we've both been in a company where it was like you needed to log every meeting, every call, every email, and it's counted, but yet the salesperson has not generated a sale in eight months. So it's like, where is that healthy balance for leadership to be like, okay, like this makes sense, but are we overdoing it?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think it's a great question. I think, um, look, at the end of the day, what matters is results. And, uh, we can see the results, uh, of someone on the sales team based on their level. Again, I go back to how much pipeline are they creating that, uh, to me, is a much better metric of their activity. Uh, and then, of course, are they converting that activity right, into bookings, into sales? Uh, obviously those are numbers we can see very clearly. Um, and then there's other metrics, uh, that have to do with the quality of their relationships with their clients. Um, harder to measure, but also very, very important. Uh, anyway, I just think there's other ways to really gauge the performance, uh, of each member of the team and to hold them accountable. Right. For those. For those results.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, because we're talking about pipeline and pipeline generation a little bit, here's one for you. For pipeline coverage ratio, I know that we've had different, you know, different people have different thought processes on that. When you get your quarterly or yearly goal and you're thinking pipeline coverage ratio, hero, villain, make the case.

Speaker A: I wouldn't say either. Uh, look, it's such a blunt instrument. It is such a blunt KPI, uh, you know, 3 to 5x. Um, you know, it depends on so many different factors. Right? It depends on the kind of business. It depends on, obviously, the sales, uh, cycle. Right. The shorter the cycle the lower that number needs to be, the higher, the longer, the higher it needs to be. Um, and obviously the win rate, um, is probably the most important factor. But then there's all kinds of other factors like the quality of that pipeline. Right. I might have 5x pipeline, but if it's all, you know, enterprise level deals, okay. That are going to take longer to close and probably have a uh, lower win rate. Right. Factor needs to be higher than that as opposed to if they're small deals, they're all SMB, right. They have a shorter sales cycle. Right. I can probably get away with a much lower uh, ratio. Uh, um, so again, to me that factor that KPI is, it's all over the place and you got to put so many different um, conditions on it to really have a confidence that it means something. It, for me it's very hard. Um, so I wouldn't go so far as to say a villain. But it's not something that I, to be honest with you, spend a lot of time looking at because of those factors.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say the villain for me would be the fluffy pipeline of like all those deals that have just been in there fluffed and they're not real or they're not real amounts. And it's kind of like, oh, we can say we've got three times our pipeline, but how much of that is actually real versus, you know, we just need to pluff it, fluff it because that's what we're required to do at the moment. So I guess there is.

Speaker A: Right. And then of course it depends on the, on the, the um, the distribution of the, the size of those deals. Right. If they're all more or less the same size, you know, then factors like pipeline coverage are a bit more meaningful to me. Right. If on the other hand, uh, I have one or two deals which are gigantic, and then a large number of small deals, that coverage ratio, it just loses its value. Right. So anyway, uh, a typical blunt KPI that a lot of people like to use, but I think you gotta dig a bit deeper to get any kind of value from it.

Speaker B: Yep, that would make a lot of sense. So I wanna go into. You have so much experience in Revops, which I have always appreciated working with you and getting your point of view on. And because you've worked under sales excellence and Revops and kind of in different spaces, is there a big change or jump or difference between working in a sales excellence space into Revops? Like talk about like career pathing. Because I know I get a Lot of questions. Um, especially from people that want to break into RevOps. So if we stick in that, you know, what is this part of RevOps from your experience and tenure in these different spaces?

Speaker A: Sure, sure. Great question. So, well, so first of all, I'm not big, I'm not big on titles. Okay.

Speaker B: Uh, because they all are different and we all end up doing the same thing anyway.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So super high level answer. Your question is I view, I view sort of rev ops and sales excellence as, as uh, you know, maybe two sides of the same coin. Uh, because it's fundamentally about helping uh, the sales organization be more successful.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Whether you're in a rev ops titled role or a sales excellence titled role, it's about, you know, bringing best practices to bear to help the sales team. Um, so when I was in the sales excellence role, I uh, was doing a lot of the same things that I was doing in my RevOps role. Uh, it's about you know, laying down the foundation, right? Laying down the foundation for uh, a world class sales organization. That means uh, looking at the tech stack, right? Looking at the underlying data that that tech stack contains and is managed, right? Looking at the, you know, the process for managing sales and pipeline each week, each month. Um, it's about, you know, setting up sales territories optimally. It's about designing uh, comp plan, right. Uh, that's going to maximize performance, uh, help, you know, motivate the team to maximize performance. Um, so all of those things that are, that are, you know, sort of traditionally in the rev ops space, those are things that I focused on as a sales excellence leader. Sales excellence leader. You're working very closely with the CRO, uh and the sales team. Just uh, like you would in a RevOps role. Um, you know, hopefully again you're sort of bringing to bear best practices from your own experience working with sales teams, working uh, in other companies. Um, but to me they're fundamentally the same.

Speaker B: How did you break into RevOps? I'm curious and this is from my own space of like, how did you break into RevOps and what was one of the key things that helped you learn it faster?

Speaker A: Yeah, so uh, I broke into it when I was with um, the global sales group at IBM a number of years ago. Um, there was at that time, uh, what I would call a kind of sales operations division group at IBM that I was part of. Uh, in those days we didn't have the cloud, right? So everything was uh, under this architecture called client server. Right? You had a big box, it was called A server. And you had lots of little boxes,

Speaker B: don't age yourself here, called clients.

Speaker A: And they were actually connected by wires. You actually had cables that connected these boxes together. Uh, and a guy named Tom Siebel created a, created a program that he called Siebel. And uh, it was like the first real CRM. And so, uh, so that's what we used uh, at IBM in those days. That was our, that was our CRM system. And in those days IBM did um, I want to say 100, was it like $140 billion of revenue? Um, we had something on the order of 20,000 salespeople around the world. Wow. Um, and so that's, you know, that's kind of how I, uh, that's kind of how I started uh, in this business.

Speaker B: Um, and what made you stick it out? What's your favorite part of DevOps?

Speaker A: Well, I love working with sales teams. I mean I always have. Right. I um, love the character of typical sales team. I uh, love um, you know, the excitement of winning uh, a big deal. Right. And try and helping the sales team win a big deal. Um, I've also always just been kind of analytically focused. So I'm sure that has a lot to do with why I've stayed in RevOps. You know, I like, I like data. I'm a data guy.

Speaker B: Um, and we have to deal with a lot of data.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And I love solving problems. And I think fundamentally the role of RevOps is to solve problems. In fact, the most successful folks I've ever seen in RevOps are those who uh, really embrace challenge. Right. And embrace the opportunity to solve problems. Right. Um, and so you know, for me that's, you know, that's really what keeps me going. Uh, that's what gets me excited. Um, you know there's so many things, so many things that need to get fixed. Right. So many problems that need to get solved and so many challenges. Uh, we have, every sales team has. Right. Uh, and the RevOps team's role is really to help solve those, so.

Speaker B: Absolutely agree. I, I love to say we are that weirdly defined person that thrives in chaos versus everybody else around us is terrified of chaos. But we're usually the ones trying to fix the chaos or we create the chaos. So it's like the double edged sword on everything we do. Um, so thinking of that. So we've seen different. You know, I have my perspective on like how Rev Ops done. Right. If we were to paint a picture of saying if you were putting a team together or Rev Ops Done. Right? What does that look like for you? If you could like, wave a magic wand or paintbrush and say, this is Rev Ops and this is how it's ideally done.

Speaker A: Uh, I think it's, I think it goes back to, um, the analogy of building a foundation, right? For a building. Right? We have a, we have a building and it's the, uh, you know, sales engine of this company. And, and we, you know, revops Done. Right. Is the foundation of that building is firm, it's solid, it's flat. Right. And it therefore enables, you know, the, the higher structures to be put in place. So, uh, again, foundation for me probably starts with the tech stack. What are the tools we have in place? Are those the right tools? Right. Um. Ah. Do we have too many tools? Do we have tools that we don't need, that we can get rid of? Uh, that's important. Um, and the data that's inside those tools. So the tools and the data is kind of the starting point always for me. And then on top of that is the key processes. Weekly, monthly, quarterly processes that sales that RevOps enables. Right? There's a, there's a weekly salesman process, right? Where we're looking at the pipeline, we're looking at opportunities, you know, we're understanding where there are key gaps. Uh, we're forecasting the business for the month, for the quarter. Right. Uh, we've, we've set up a model of sales territories, uh, for the team that's optimal, that sort of maximizes, um, where we're going to get, you know, white space opportunity in the marketplace. And we've designed a comp plan, you know, that goes along with that. Um, you know, we've done our, we've done our ICP modeling, right. Ideally, we've also built a kind of a white space model, right, that's very detailed down at the client level. Um, and, you know, we have a process whereby we're looking at leads, right? We're qualifying leads, we're moving leads through the funnel. Uh, so all the work that goes into setting that process up as well, very, uh, very important. Um, and hopefully we'll also have a process whereby we're reviewing, um, the performance on a regular basis, we're making adjustments to the model, to the plan as we move along through the year. So it's all about building that foundation. It's all about committing, uh, to that foundation, uh, that I think makes the, uh, you know, rev ops work the best. And so for me, rev ops done, right? That's fundamentally what it means.

Speaker B: And do you feel in that? I agree with you also because I think that that is like the foundational part of what we have to do in general as an org. Do you have a thought on like RevOps organization, like your counterparts that you have to work with? So for example, we usually see, you know, the, the hierarchy of RevOps where you've got enablement, you've got your ops people, you've got business analysts, you've got, you know, system people. Is there any philosophy you have with that? Because I know we love to try to do it all, but we can't be the doer of all things sometimes. So we have to have other functions with us in RevOps to be able to execute on all of those things.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think you need somebody, um, you know, you need somebody on the tool side. You need like a system admin type maybe, um, to sort of manage the, manage the tools. Um, I think you need, uh, you need someone who works very closely with the CRO and the sales team, uh, on, you know, weekly, uh, again, what I call sales management process. So, uh, you know, pipeline, pipeline maintenance, uh, forecasting, um, and so on. And then I think this doesn't necessarily need to be a different person, but you also have to have a strategic function as part of repops. And this goes primarily to the planning for the new year. Right. And the budget process that we do every year. So determining the right mix of um, of skills on the sales team, um, and just kind of building out that plan and then, and then also, you know, constantly looking at the underlying tech stack to decide what, what changes do we need to make, what additions should we be making. Right. Um, and that may be that, you know, that that's actually. I found one of the more difficult tasks I think, in, in RevOps, which is deciding what the next tool is going to be.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Or whether there should be, should be a new tool, if any.

Speaker B: That's my worst fear is, oh, we see this new tool.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. There's so many bright, shiny objects out there. Um, and being very judicious about that, I think is very important. It's um, and, and it needs to be, you know, you, you, you, you need to um. I think think of it like you're actually running a P and L. Right. You are on the hook and responsible for helping to deliver, you know, the number. And uh, that also includes, you know, the cost associated with that. So, so optimizing, um, you know, optimizing the RevOps team and its structure, uh, is, is very, very important.

Speaker B: So that's a good, That's a good question, because we do get this often. Um, how have you felt in your experience that to move from a tactical viewpoint to a strategic seat at the table? Because not all people that are in RevOps end up being able to have a seat at the table with a voice to make decisions like that. So do you think that there is a skill set or things that people can do to start maybe being able to lean more into a strategic point of view?

Speaker A: But I think it just. Yeah, so I think it starts with acting like an owner. Right? Um, whatever role you're in, you know, uh, you're an individual contributor on the RevOps team. Uh, you can still act like an owner. Uh, something as simple as recommending ways to save money. Okay. It could be a small, small thing, right? But, uh, you know, you have a. You've got a set of tools, right? And, and you. And you decide that, you know, you can get something done without a particular tool. Um, you raise that up and say, look, we can save $5,000 if we got rid of this tool. Right? That's a very simple example of acting like an owner. And it's those kinds of things that I think, um, are most important can get you a seat at the table. Right. With leadership, uh, if you consistently demonstrate, um, that you feel as like you're an owner and you feel like, you know, every dollar that's spent, uh, is coming out of your pocket and therefore you're going to optimize, you know, how, how money is spent and at the same time focus on the things that are going to drive growth, drive revenue. Right? Drive bookings. Um, that to me is what's most important. And, and that's, you know, moving from a kind of a Revops individual contributor, director, vp. Uh, to me it's all about, um, you know, taking on that mindset, um, and recognizing that, you know, you are accountable, uh, and you're empowered to make better decisions that are going to help this company succeed. Um, so for me, that's what that's all about.

Speaker B: M. Yeah, that's great advice. I love that. So, as a fun closer, we're going to do a little lightning round all around your desert island stuff. So, okay, one RevOps tool that you would take to a desert island if you could only pick one, and you still actually had to work while you were on the island.

Speaker A: Okay, so I'm gonna. So first of all, you know, again, um, the, the.

Speaker B: I think I know what you're going

Speaker A: to say, but the answer I would give is Excel, but I'm not going to give you that answer. Um, the. The. The. The. The Rev Ops tool I probably. I probably would take. And it's not because it's the greatest tool ever by any stretch of the imagination, but I. But I use it. But I use it all the time. And that's, uh. And that's zoom info. I use. I use zoom info.

Speaker B: I was not expecting that. I was not.

Speaker A: Yeah, I use. I use zoom info a lot. I think it's. You know, again, it's. It's. It's. They're. It's. They're not. They're far from perfect, for sure. Um, they've got a lot of gaps in their data. But, um, you know, if I'm trying to quickly, um, put together lists of, uh, of prospects, um, I find it to be a very, very handy tool to do that. Um, and, um, and then obviously, you know, the quick and easy integration, uh, with other parts of the tech stack like Salesforce and HubSpot and so on, makes, uh, it particularly useful.

Speaker B: See, you wouldn't get all of those if you were on the island. You would only get zoom info. That's the only tool that you get.

Speaker A: Okay, well, I could. I could handle that. Let's figure it out.

Speaker B: All right, so, um, one person in the RevOps world that could be on the island with you, and it better be.

Speaker A: In terms of role.

Speaker B: I'm totally kidding.

Speaker A: One person.

Speaker B: One person in the Rev Ops world. We have a. We have a big world of Rev Ops people.

Speaker A: But do you mean like an actual person or like a. Like a role?

Speaker B: Um, I mean, if you don't have a person in Rev Ops that you would bring, then let's go with a role, a Rev Ops role that you bring to the island.

Speaker A: Um, I think, um. Boy, what a question. Uh, how about.

Speaker B: Hey, I had to stump you on something.

Speaker A: How about the, um. I'm going to say the HubSpot administrator, because that HubSpot has always been a thorn in my side, so.

Speaker B: Yeah, I feel your pain on that one. Absolutely. Okay, one last question. What's the first thing you'd build when you got back to civilization that is like your. What's your RevOps? Must fix it first when you come back.

Speaker A: Uh, one of my frustrations, I'll be honest with you, is, um, I just find there's lots of things in Salesforce that are just always broken and, like, don't consistently work things like.

Speaker B: I think that was actually one of my questions.

Speaker A: Things like, for example, uh, Einstein Activity Capture. I can't tell you how many times I've been on the phone with the help desk at Salesforce trying to get that stupid thing to work. And it's one of those things that should just automatically work. You should never have to even think about it. Um, so for me, just making sure all the basic stuff, basic plumbing, in particularly Salesforce, that would be the first thing I'd want to fix when I got back from the desert island.

Speaker B: I love that. Yes, we had many conversations about Einstein Activity Capture because we had account meetings, emails, and calls that never showed up correctly.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Oh, well, first of all, thank you so much for taking the time today. It's been so much fun catching up with you. I loved the topic. I think that, you know, we've got a lot of really great stuff here, so hopefully everybody that's listening will, um, figure it out. If you want to tell Everybody what your LinkedIn is and they can reach out and follow you and then.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. My LinkedIn is, uh. What is my LinkedIn, boy? Um, I don't know.

Speaker B: I mean, it's got to be your name, right?

Speaker A: It's my name for Matthew Callahan. You will, uh, you will certainly find me. Let me see, let me pull it up here. Um, so I am at, um, the, uh. Yeah, so it's LinkedIn at, uh, Matt Callahan. M A T T Hyphen C A L L A H A N. That is me. So wonderful to, uh, connecting with, uh, with the audience here. And, uh, yeah, this has been a great, great, fun. Tana, thank you so much for inviting me to this, uh, great opportunity to get back together with you and talk about fun revop stuff. Sam.