Detective Inspector Lawrence Billi - EP256

Speaker A: M. Foreign.

Speaker B: So welcome to this week's edition of the Retail Risk podcast sponsored by Alltag. And thanks as always for Supporting Partners or Cotton Associates and Harrison Retail. Now, my guest this week is Detective Inspector Lawrence Billy. Now, Lawrence is a DI on the Opal Cirrus and Organized Acquisitive Crime Intelligence Team. Lawrence, uh, has been in policing for an incredible 35 years. Yes, you're right, he did join when he was four years of age. Uh, more on that in a moment. But I guess, firstly, a huge welcome. Lawrence, delighted to have you on.

Speaker A: Thank you very much, Paul. Delighted to be here. Thank you.

Speaker B: So look, you sit at the heart of what I think, you know, those of us in retail would say is one of the most important developments in UK retail policing in years. So really delighted to have you here today. But before we get into that, I want to start with you because, uh, As I mentioned, 35 years, I want the story and the waypoints and then all the way through to how you ended up at, ah, Opal, because I know, I think it was 17, was it, when you first joined?

Speaker A: That's right, yes. I, um, it's an interesting sliding doors moment because like most 17 year olds who want to join the army, I went in hoping, uh, to join the marines and uh, the army career sergeant as they tend to do have vacancies here and there. And he said, oh, no, no, no, the marines, no, no, no, that's, you know, that's not for you. Why don't you try this? And he showed me the military police brochure and I thought, well, that looks interesting. And without any intention of joining the military police, I did. And then 35 years later, here we are after a career in, uh, across two different police forces and Opal. Uh, so I was in the military for five years and as used to happen quite a lot in those days, I left the military and joined Avon and Somerset Police, where I was.

Speaker B: And then I had a quick look. So 20, 21 years, Avon and Somerset and then Wiltshire Police. What was that a personal change that prompted that, uh, movement of force?

Speaker A: It was, uh. Paul? Yeah, we, um, my wife and I were living in kind of the posher part of Bristol and we couldn't afford to buy there. And then when, uh, we had our first baby, my daughter Florence, uh, we decided to buy, kind of move out by our own place and move close to the Wiltshire border. And I transferred so that I could be around a lot more at home and help with, with, with the new baby. And uh, I never looked back really Wilshire was a really great place to go. Much smaller force, much more kind of, uh, the Chief Constable knows your name, that kind of, that kind of vibe. Whereas Avon and Somerset was, was much bigger, three or four times the size. So uh, it was an interesting shift, particularly as I moved into fatherhood and parenthood and so forth.

Speaker B: And then how did the move to Opal come about? Was that a little tap on the shoulder going, lawrence, we've got something interesting for you over here or did you spot it and hunt it down?

Speaker A: Well, a bit of both. I was um, working in serious and organized crime in Wiltshire as the Detective Sergeant on an intel development team and my boss at that time was, was Jim Taylor who went on to be the head of unit for Opal. He left Wiltshire Police, um, and became uh, head of the unit at Opal. And we were in touch because we had a good relationship and I really enjoyed the work and we had some really decent results during that time when I was on that team. And so when a position for the Detective Inspector on Opal came up, I had been promoted a couple of years and Jim just let me know to why didn't I apply? So I did. I'd actually moved out of serious and organized crime into uh, the cyberspace and I was keen to get back into uh, soc and I was really lucky to get the job because it's a fantastic role, managing the tactical side of what we do across the operations that we have. Um, working with some really great people and again achieving some pretty impressive things I think, particularly in the retail chrome space.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's a fascinating structure, that kind of policing, private partnership structure. But they're my words, not yours. So for anybody listening that isn't familiar with Opal, give me the overview. How would you describe what it is, what it does and um, why it exists?

Speaker A: Sure. Um, so Opal are, ah, the, as you've mentioned in the outset, the serious and organized Acquisitive Crime Intelligence Team. So we don't have boots on the ground going and arresting people but, but we will join the dots where organized criminals are using cross border tactics as an enabler for their criminality. So people traveling around the country, because everybody knows the police, there are 43 forces in the UK and each of those forces is trying to manage as best they can the activity in their own force and they don't tend to raise their heads. And so what would frequently happen, or what does frequently happen, is where you, where somebody gets arrested for a crime, they will just deal with that crime in isolation, they'll deal with what's happened then and there. And when it comes to acquisitive crime, that of course doesn't shine a light on, on the true nature of what's happening. Because if you arrest someone and you treat them as, uh, someone who's committed a shop theft, then they will get a punishment. If they are punished commensurate with that isolated incident. If, on the other hand, you raise your head and you. That this person is actually the principal member of an organised crime group committing theft across the country to multiple, multiple thousands of pounds, then you're looking at a, uh, conspiracy, sometimes even an international conspiracy to commit theft, which carries with it a much more kind of significant outcome when we, when we are, ah, when we get to a criminal justice, uh, kind of position. The, uh. So joining those dots is critically what Opal will do and they will demonstrate the true scope and scale of what's happening rather than an individual force who will just look at the thing in isolation. And we have six threat desks, as they are referred to. There's the organized retail crime, uh, threat desk, which is very much concentrating on partnership work and has grown to the size that it has because there's so much work in that space. Um, then we have the supply chain crime desk, which is newly stood up trying to replicate what retail crime are doing in the supply chain space. We have the, um, robbery, burglary and metal, uh, crime desks. They're single person analyst desks and they have a slightly different function, although they do still do some operational work, but they're much more informing government about trends and what's happening, uh, across those three desks. And we have the vehicle crime desk, which again is different again in that they are proactive, but they work more closely with police rather than industry partners because vehicle crime tends to get reported to the police. Um, and really a key element of what Opel do is to raise the profile of acquisitive crime because police forces are very focused on immediate threat, harm and risk, which is. Right, you know, they are focused on issues like child abuse and domestic violence and, uh, you know, violent crime generally and drugs and all those things that you know about. And so it's our job to raise the profile of serious and organized acquisitive crime by showing them that this is organized crime and the people committing this type of crime are also committing drugs crimes, are also committing those other violence, violent crimes. And it might be, we, we refer to it as the sort of Al Capone, uh, methodology that, whilst you are struggling to get a dis. A disruption against this organized crime group within the drugs and uh, that kind of environment, because they're very careful and professional that you might be able to affect that organized crime. That same organized crime group who are less careful when committing acquisitive crime because traditionally policing hasn't prioritized it. And so they take, they take. They'll drive in their own cars, for example, which they would never do, uh, in a. Committed different type of crime. But criminals are criminals. Right. So they're not limited to a particular crime type. They will do anything that will get them money. And certainly many of them engage in, in acquisitive crime. Absolutely.

Speaker B: And. And, um, yeah, it's fair to say, or I'm. In my perspective, you know, the Pegasus partnership is, if you like, the poster child, organized retail crime collaboration, home office policing. We've got Ms. Co Op Boots, Primark have been. How does that. I mean, they're not easy people to corral in the same, uh, direction. How does that sort of partnership work in practice? And maybe what does it give you differently from what wasn't possible before?

Speaker A: Well, I mentioned about policing not prioritizing acquisitive crime. And within that space retail crime was even further deprioritized. So actually what you had was potential partners wanting to speak to the police but not having the mechanism to do that. They would have to call. If you've got Marks and Spencers, for example, who are being affected by an organised crime group across the country, they would. That they would have to report each of those crimes to the separate forces because the force over here wouldn't accept a crime belonging to a force down there. So Opal enabled a mechanism to have one report. You're not reporting the crimes to us, but the joining those dots and facilitating communication between those forces that wasn't there previously. Um, so it's important to say that Opal don't, um, they're not, uh, a kind of way around reporting something to the police because we're an intelligence development unit, so the reports have to still take place but the connections weren't being made. And that's what Opal were able to do. It simplifies contact with policing because we are then having reported that, we would then be the kind of single point for the larger investigation. So let's say this organised crime group that we've mentioned, uh, are committing crimes across the country and individually police forces are treating them as isolated incidents. We are able to make the, identify the commonalities, show them that it's a larger conspiracy and develop that uh, investigation to a point where we then find a policing owner for the whole thing rather than just the separate jobs. It enables partners to feel confident, to share information because traditionally speaking, um, organizations didn't want to reveal elements of their business which were vulnerable to a competitor. Whereas they have the confidence to speak to the police about something that's affecting them, which may also be affecting somebody else. So that flow of information is increased and daring to share because they know that they can have confidence that the police will not reveal the source of that information, but will reveal the context and the, the substance of that information to the benefit of everybody, which is only a good thing.

Speaker B: And uh, yeah, and the results have been extraordinary. You know, I did a little search around and maybe, I don't know whether I'm up to date on this, but 250 plus arrests, 118 years of prison sentences, 22 deportations, a 73% reduction in uh, offending among, uh, OCGs referred to the unit. I mean, tip of the iceberg, you know. Are you pleased, boy? There's more to come.

Speaker A: There's definitely more to come. And interestingly, the policing I think, is turning a corner when it comes to retail crime. Many forces have retail crime teams. Um, and uh, we um, have Opal have set up and chair a tactical coordination group which is a space for retail partners to speak with the police. We, you know, Opal chair it, but it enables that flow of information and anyone that's on that is an ally, whether that's a police force or whether that is a, ah, retail partner, they're allies in this fight against retail crime. But um, yeah, the key thing, I think the key statistic you mentioned there is something we are very, very proud of and that is where, where Opal are involved with a partner in investigating an organized crime group who may have been operating for years, There is a 73% disruption, permanent disruption against that group that's incredibly high. And it shows what can be achieved when policing work in partnership with retail because it just gives all partners agency within that investigation to positively contribute. And the outcome of a 73%, um, reduction in recidivism, that's not an easy thing to say, is incredible in policing really, particularly with this type of crime, which is low risk, high reward. And um, it does show, as I say, uh, what can be achieved.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean they are just fantastic. And like I say, that's the reason it's. That project is sort of the poster child. It's Referred to. In fact, it's one of the main conversations, uh, when we do retail risk in Melbourne and Sydney, I always get asked about the Pegasus project. It's got global attention in terms of what it's doing and it's looked, uh, at longingly from the other side of the world, for sure.

Speaker A: Well, that's wonderful to hear. I mean it's now business as usual, um, and it's expanded beyond the original Pegasus partners to a point where the people engaging now are, ah, at least the same number as the original Pegasus partners were, who were not previously, if I've explained that properly. So it's, it's, you know, it's, it's really big. It's business as usual and it's about communication. That's the key thing. So demystifying what the police are able to do, managing expectations, but at the same time working with partners so that they can get the evidence that they have and always had to a point, which makes it professionally impossible for the police not to pick up these pieces of work. Um, and I'm talking about things like having statements available, having the CCTV footage available, um, in a format which, which is coherent and uh, is, is paints the picture in a police centric way so that the police are able to work with it immediately. And we've all, we all know, uh, well, maybe we don't all know because it's an international audience, but in, in the UK, uh, we've only got 24 hours to deal with these people if we, if we're seeking to kind of lock them up and therefore we need that evidence available at the point of arrest. And that's what, that's what this has enabled and it's why we've had those great results.

Speaker B: And if, uh, I was king for the day, Lawrence, I would extend those 24 hours to, uh, uh, 10 days. Probably all seems a little bit on the short side to me.

Speaker A: But anyway, whatever your retail challenge, Harrison, retail can handle it. Bespoke pos, loss prevention systems, single fixture or full store rollout from design to delivery.

Speaker B: Look, I've got to ask you more about this supply chain crime desk. It almost feels like supply chain has been hiding in plain sight in terms of the scale of the losses and then everybody's become aware. But it's brand new. I think when its first month or two you had a crime gang arrested for a conspiracy to steal. Talk me through what brought the crime desk about. Is it going to be as big as. I know there's a Talk of Pegasus 2.0. Um, on the crime desk, uh, on the supply chain side, give me the update on where it is, where it's going and your aspirations for it.

Speaker A: Absolutely. I think because of the success of the retail crime Team, the organized retail crime team, Pegasus, it was seen how this could be translated into the supply chain crime space. And it is, because it's partnership working. It's an area of policing which is not prioritized or hasn't been traditionally. And as you say, it's happening in plain sight and people affected by it are losing millions of pounds. So the job you're referring to is a real success story. We'd only been kind, uh, of stood up for about a month and we were attending one of your events, actually Retail Risk on the Move and we were putting it out there that we just started. And, and one of our, One of the partners there, I don't know if I'm allowed to say their name, um,

Speaker B: so we're in the public domain now. I've seen the story, so fair enough.

Speaker A: So one of the partners from Tesco was saying, well, we've got this driver, we're not too sure about him, he deviates from his route and we think he's taking some of our stock. So we looked into it and utilized the various mechanisms, uh, that we have, and we were able to identify suspicious vehicles, multiple deviations. Um, and, uh, off the back of that we coordinated two police forces, Hampshire and Thames Valley, and we were able to execute, we attended with, with Thames Valley police and we executed warrants at multiple addresses. And in, in the addresses we found stock belonging to Tesco, Tesco branded stock. We found, um, uh, the, the tags which are used, the security tags that had been strewn about the place, uh, and the two main suspects had made off. There were two suspects that we did arrest, but the two main suspects were not present in, on the day. And that's just a normal part of policing. But we followed that up by circulating these, uh, two people and they were stopped on their way out of the country down at Felixstowe. And um, so they were picked up, brought back and they're now part of the ongoing investigation. I should caveat everything I'm saying by the fact that it is an ongoing investigation. No one's been convicted of anything yet. Um, but that is a really good news story. And we've actually found that the group that we are looking at were working for other, uh, haulage companies. And we don't doubt that there may well be further lines of inquiry in that, uh, uh, in the activity that they were doing for those other partners. So we're looking into that as well now. So just from a, just from a kind of starting point, it was a really great start for us and we want more of that, uh, those success stories. And as I said to you earlier, with regards to the carelessness of criminals who are operating in supply chain crime and in retail crime, that doesn't happen in other types of crime because they've not been traditionally looked at and they act with impunity really. But we're on it now. And having lifted up that stone, as you know, because we've spoken before about this, a big piece of work, it's a big bit of business and it is comparable to retail crime I think. Definitely.

Speaker B: And you make a very good point. There aren't the veils and the processes on the crime gang side because nobody's been looking at this uh, for years. The retailers and the hauliers have now got the supply chain desk to come and talk to you. And again, if you guys are going to be linking this up across constabularies, then you know, there should be some amazing wins to be have. I know that's the expectation. Um, and that, that early success would suggest that that's going to be the case.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's hope so. And uh, as you say, it's about identifying the fact that this is organized crime. It's organized crime. These are people who are gangsters. It's not someone who's nicking something off the back of a lorry, so to speak.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. And one of the things about, you know, the open model and you've touched on it, is this cross border, multi force approach. Because historically that's been where the gaps have been that uh, organized crimes, you know, it's the, it's almost the smokey and the bandit us move, isn't it? Where they race for the state line and all of a sudden, you know, the jurisdiction changes. But how difficult has it actually been to get that national coordination capability? I mean, I presume they're still with points. I don't expect to name them, but it's an ongoing relationship exercise.

Speaker A: It is ongoing, but the longer we operate in the space, the more familiar people become with it. And ultimately, whilst this is what I always say, people will tell me that acquisitive crime is, is not seen as a priority for this force or that force. Perhaps that's the case. But organized crime is. Organized crime is on every force's priority list. And that's what we're talking about here. So it's about shifting the mindset. It's also about working with partners to make sure that evidence is so strong that you'd be professionally embarrassed as a police officer not to take it. It's one thing saying we're being, you know, anecdotally we're being hit by this group and I'm sure they're working in Northampton and I'm sure they're working in Scotland and I'm sure they're working in Wales. It's quite another thing to say, these are the offenses, this is the evidence, here is the statement, this is where they live. This is. And that's our job from Opal to coordinate that Force X. That's your evidential package. Deal with it. And if you don't deal with it, well, I'd quite like to escalate this and find out why you're not dealing with it. But that is. I don't want to sound overly optimistic or naive, but I genuinely believe that the longer we are in this space, the more familiar forces will become. With this type of work, they are receiving these brilliant evidential packages and it, you know, as I say, you gather traction and momentum and, uh, yeah, and supply chain is a good example of that. It wasn't too difficult to get interest in that.

Speaker B: I mean, retailers for many years felt that, you know, their crime, retail crime, wasn't really being taken seriously by the police. And I know, you know, you make a very good point that serious organized crime always was. But it does feel as if it's genuinely changed. There's maybe a little bit of perception. Everybody's got a story about this force or that force that's not as good as, you know, the next force that is. But it does feel as if we've turned a corner and everybody is heading in the, in the right direction. I mean, I'm not expecting you to call out, uh, the forces that you think could do a better job, but they're all heading in the right direction. Are they?

Speaker A: Well, the thing is, people refer to the police as if it's a thing, a one person thing, but it's about characters, about personalities, it's about ways of working. And, um, there is a force in, they won't mind me saying, North Yorkshire, they have a particularly high detection rate for positive outcomes when it comes to reported retail crime. So they have a, it's in the 60s, 60% and above. And, uh, that's really, really, really high for policing. Uh, so it's a positive outcome, might be A criminal justice outcome where they go to court and get convicted or it might be they get given a, you know, criminal behavior order. But effectively something is done about this at this crime. So it' the high 60s and they uh, received a HMIC FRS report which is like Ofsted for the police. So it's like a, an inspection on their crime and the way they manage crime in its totality of which retail crime is just an element. And they received an incredibly good uh, rating based upon the way they have managed crime generally. And I, it's my view that if you tackle the, what's perceived to be smaller crimes properly and deal with them professionally and that's the mindset of the officers, they will have that same mindset going into the perceived more risky jobs and the higher profile uh, investigations. So I think the two things are linked. Dealing with retail crime and acquisitive crime properly leads into a force who is professional and manages risk and more uh, complex crimes better. I think the two things are linked and I think that's the message that should be put out there, really deal with it all properly and the little things, the big things will take care of it themselves.

Speaker B: Is that not life in, in general, isn't it? If, uh, you know, but, but it's great. So I got to ask you then, um, what frustrates you most with your day to day? Whether it's about how retailers report how some forces, wider systems, what keeps you awake at night. Again, we were to make you king for the day, what, what would you change? What's the big frustration?

Speaker A: I think communication can be a frustration. Um, so I dealt with, I was, I was uh, managing something in which uh, a particular partner was frustrated at the police and the evidence that they were giving. And when I looked into that, essentially they were giving the police the evidence that they thought they needed to give them. And this is CCTV evidence. And the CCTV evidence was, was not good enough of good enough quality, uh, to progress the case. And so, but the two sides were not talking to one another. And it turns out that this partner had invested a lot of money in body worn video which was of excellent quality, but they were not providing that. They were providing CCTV because that's what they thought they needed to provide. So just realizing that and facilitating that shift. So now they're providing the body worn as well as the CCTV has helped, but that's just purely communication. So I think when you talk about frustrations it's difficult to get that facilitated communication which unpicks what the issues are sometimes, and having the right people having those conversations. The tactical coordination group that I mentioned earlier, where police and partners are able to speak frankly with one another, is one way of overcoming that. But there's, you know, you don't win that battle. You have to constantly, uh, make those relationships. And particularly in the police, where people change all the time, people change roles constantly. Um, they say the only constant in policing is change. That can be frustrating. It can be a frustration because you can have, you can make real inroads, and then that person leaves. The next person starts, they're not interested. So that's the thing, I think, is my most frustrating thing. But it's not limited to, to, uh, acquisitive crime and investigating acquisitive crime. That is an issue generally in life, I think, and in business as well, I expect.

Speaker B: There you go. We can solve everybody's woes in one fell swoop. So quick question then. Retailers listening to this, what's the one thing they could do today, tomorrow, that would make your job easier, more successful?

Speaker A: There can be a defeatist, uh, attitude when it comes to reporting this type of crime. You know, you mentioned yourself, and it's like, oh, well, the police aren't interest, so we have to kind of overcome that. And, uh, we have to engage and we have to communicate with one another because if we're going to make inroads into this type of crime, all parties have to be active. The police have to be active and engaged partners have to be active in it and not wait to be, uh, engaged with, but to actively collect the evidence that they have and have it in a format which, which is usable, uh, in, as we said, that short period of time of 24 hours. So that's, that's kind of like what I would say is have an open mind, don't be defeated, don't be defeatist, and actively use the skills and the, the evidence that you have to engage with the police. Um, and Opal can help with that.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And then go, I should. Most underestimated aspect of organized retail crime, maybe that the public just doesn't get

Speaker A: definitely that they're powerless. That is under. That is, the public thinks they're powerless to do anything about this. It's just a thing. It happens and we need to kind of put up with it. It's just not true. It's just not true. We can, we can make an effect. We can affect this type of crime. We are, it's not. Doesn't always result in a criminal justice outcome, but remember, what we said at the outset, 73% permanent reduction in activity against these groups when engagement has taken place. So that's, that's a key takeaway for me. We're not powerless.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And then for the wider audience, the retail community, is it that we're not passed. What's the one message that, uh, that you want to send to the retail loss prevention community right now about what Opal is doing or what it is going to be doing?

Speaker A: Well, Opal would like to keep growing. Opal would like to have more impact in this space. So just keep engaging and if you're not engaging now, begin, start engaging. Come, um, to the tactical coordination group. Listen, if you don't want to speak, come to it. If anyone emails you with their email address, I can send out the invite. Um, it's fine. It is about working together to fight this type of crime. That's key. The police can't do it all and we've got to work together to overcome it.

Speaker B: Fantastic. And then finally, I guess, finally, what does, you know, what's the definition of success for 2026 for Opal? And then I also want to know what, what's on your personal agenda for the, for the rest of the year as well.

Speaker A: Thank you. I want to make the supply chain crime desk a success. I want to really get some traction and some momentum in that space. I want to work with partners and for them to be as energized and engaged as the retail part. Um, so that's my primary one. I also want to ensure that we reinvigorate and re. Engage with, uh, with our retail crime partners and ensure that momentum isn't lost in that while we're focusing on other things. Because that's key. We've got to keep that going. You don't win permanently in this space. You have wins, but the momentum is key. That's what, uh, that's what I'm keen to kind of keep going on. And in the next 12 months. Uh, well, I've been with Opel since September and it's a very new way of working for me. I really am engaged with it. I'm really buying into it and I really believe in it. But it's new. So I want to build on my own personal experience. I want to become more effective as a leader. I want to help my team develop and grow because we've grown. It was mentioned, in the last six months, Opal has grown by 111% in its staffing. So we've got a lot of new people that we've onboarded, and I want to get them to a place where they are also confident and, uh, capable and making a difference.

Speaker B: And I'm sensing from your enthusiasm that even after the few years that you've been in policing, you are still loving it.

Speaker A: I am, very much, yeah. And things like this, doing things differently, taking a different approach, really does reinvigorate you as an individual as much as anything else. Um, but I haven't lost any of the energy I had. Um, I retire in two years, and I don't want to be one of those people who's watching the clock go round, uh, waiting for retirement. That's not me. It's not my style, and it's not how I, how I operate.

Speaker B: Well, I'm not sure if I can single handedly delay, uh, your retirement, but I know lots of people are very impressed with the work that you're doing, so, uh, we might push back against that. Um, Lawrence, thank you so much for giving me an overview of what Opal's doing. I think from the Pegasus initiative to the new supply chain crime desk, they are all fantastic. They are genuinely making a difference. They've been talked about positively in the UK and around the world, and long may those successes continue.

Speaker A: Well, thanks for the opportunity to come on and to speak to your members. I really appreciate it.

Speaker B: All right, thanks, Lawrence. Take care.

Speaker A: Cheers, Paul.