100K+ Subscribers, 1,000+ Episodes, One Venture Firm: Nick Moran on Raising the Brand

Speaker A: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of our Raising the Brand series here at Private Equity Marketeer, where we delve into the stories and strategies behind leading brand builders and capital raisers in private markets. I'm, um, Matt Curtolo, longtime LP GP advisor and advisory council member here at Private Equity Marketeer. So I'm excited about all of these episodes, but today's a special one for me. Um, our guest is Nick Moran, who is the founder and general partner of NewStack Ventures in Chicago. Uh, Nick began his career as a developer before moving into M and A and product management at Danaher, where he helped build one of the company's most successful products. After all that success, he founded the aforementioned NewStack Ventures, a fund focused on backing founders who sit outside of the traditional Silicon Valley mold. As part of this, he launched the Full ratchet, which in 2014 was the first venture capital podcast and remains one of the most downloaded podcasts within our industry and was a critical education tool for yours truly as I was learning the business. Um, so it's a real pleasure to talk to a guy who spends a lot of time on the other side of the mic. Um, so we're looking forward to discussing Nick's journey across operating, investing in media, and his perspective on brand and differentiation and venture. So welcome, Nick.

Speaker B: Thank you, Matt. It's such a pleasure to be here. I appreciate you inviting me.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, I mentioned your backstory. Not exactly the traditional route into venture. Um, so. So as you think about where you sit today, uh, maybe just what experiences along the way shaped kind of your personal conviction in the kind of investor and firm that you wanted to build. And with that, you can give us a little bit more about the origin story in New Step.

Speaker B: I mean, is any path traditional, Matt, at this point? I mean, there's so many firms, and everyone comes at this kind of from a different angle today, as you know. I mean, you've coached me. You've been a great advisor over time, and I know that you work with tons of different firms, so I, I don't know that there is a traditional path, which is a great thing, Right, for uh, an industry that was chronically accessible just to the elites, for it to be a bit more meritocratic for folks that have something interesting to say, a unique lens on investing, uh, for them to be able to access the category is kind of a foreign concept as of a decade ago. So I think we're in a great place. You know, the experiences along the way that, that, that helped me are, you know, probably all the failures, probably all the constraints, uh, the limitations. I hate to use a cliche, but constraints do lead to creativity.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And coming at this industry, being based in Chicago, you know, investing in businesses that are not classic central casting teams, you know, in the Valley, forced us to get creative and do some unique things, and it's really built all the value for the firm. So I actually think the hardships have kind of made us what we are today.

Speaker A: That's a great answer, Nick. And I think everyone experiences those in a different way, Right? So your journey is. I always tell folks, your strategy is rarely unique, um, and in most cases, somebody else is doing some variant of that. But what is unique is the path that you followed to get there. And those experiences that, you know, that can move you in one direction or the other, but it sort of takes you to a place where I think you framed it well as a segue to the next question of, you know, that level of creativity. So when you launched the podcast the full ratchet in 2014, it was the first podcast in venture. I'm curious what the motivation around launching it originally was. Um, I think in particular when podcasting was not really a thing yet.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, so, I mean, you recap the story from the beginning, but basically, I was really lucky and, and I was really fortunate that I made some money. Right. I launched this product, built it, you know, with a team of, uh, 30 engineers and chemists. They really built it. You know, I was a product manager, so I was guiding strategy and the shape of the product. But once that was launched and it did really well, um, I made some money. And so I was lucky. And, uh, this was not a fortune, but it was enough to strike it out on my own and make a run at, at investing. And as I looked at asset classes, I knew venture was the one that spoke to me. Venture has the highest persistent returns over time versus other asset classes. And so my first trip was to Silicon Valley to invest in venture funds. And I went to the best, um, and you know them, the biggest names, and knocked on their doors and spoke with them, and they would not take my money. I had real money to invest, and the biggest tier ones didn't want it. And I didn't understand why until finally I met a VC who told me, nick, look, once these firms have success and grow to a certain size and scale, all their LPs are institutional. Like, they don't want your retail capital. If you want to get in the best of the best funds, you've got to find an up and comer or you got to build it yourself. Sure. So, so that kind of lit the fuse for me and I went back to Chicago and said I gotta figure out how to build this thing myself. And I was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time. It was still a very nascent category, but audio felt like it was gonna be massive to me. And um, I'm just the type of person that I'm um, hyper aware of inefficiencies and constraints just in my day to day life, you know. And an example with podcasts is, I don't know if you remember this but in the early days you would have to like download the podcast on itunes. You'd have to plug in like either an ipod or you know, if you had an iPhone, you would have to move the podcast over to the iPhone. And then if you wanted to listen like while you're doing a run or something, you know, you had a dongle for some earphones. But listening in the car was difficult. You had to get like uh, a, you know, an FM M transponder and stuff to get the. There were just all these inefficiencies to it that to me felt like these things are going to be fixed, you know, in five years, three to five years, it's going to be easy to listen to audio in the car. It's going to be easy to download a podcast directly on your iPhone. And so it just felt like this huge emerging category, audio. And uh, no one was covering it. So for a variety of reasons I kind of found uh, a format and a structure, um, that would work for me, uh, that I could launch. And um, I stuck with it. You know, it's hard week in week out to be producing content. But um, you know, I feel very fortunate at this point, 11 years later, um, to have to ah, built a brand that people know and people respect and the audience has sustained and continues to grow.

Speaker A: So that's, it's fantastic too because it's not, it's not as though you went in saying podcasting is going to be the thing I'm going to do. It's. I need to think about this access point and this constraint as you opened with exists. So I've got to figure out a way to break through. Um, and being a builder yourself, right, you kind of think about that in that, in that way. So um, I know a lot of people in our audience sort of listening as, you know, brand builders themselves, IR folks, business development folks. You've um, recorded now 500 episodes or so. So or more.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean my, my manager, podcast manager just ran the numbers the other day. So we published two different types of episodes. So yeah, it almost a thousand at this point. It's kind of shocking as I think back to how long I've been doing this. It's been like a quarter of my life.

Speaker A: But yeah, it's amazing. So I mean with, with all of that in the bag, I mean, what are the biggest learnings from all of that? You know, that 11 year journey, different types of podcasts. Certainly the world becoming maybe, uh, saturated is too strong a word, but there are hundreds of podcasts to consume now. What are your biggest learnings? And maybe in the context of building a brand, given this is the Raising the Brand series.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I mean there's learnings around VC and then there's learnings around brand. Um, like we've recently had Naveen Chadha of Mayfield 17 time Midas Lister. Right. Um, John Callahan reached out about being on the show. We interviewed him. I mean just co, uh, founder of tru, total legend in the business. I, uh, did an interview with Seth Levine of Founder Group yesterday. And like on the VC side, each of these epic figures kind of reinforced the most important things, which I think people often forget. Everyone in VC knows the most important things, but along the way, for some reason we forget and we get caught up in the noise. But the two things that stand out are you don't win big by doing consensus deals.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: Number one in number two, the founder is still the quantum unit of success in building big venture businesses. Um, you know, whether we're talking about jobs, Musk, Bezos, Jensen, you know, those tremendous businesses are successful because of those founders, not the other way around. And none of those were consensus. Right? The five most valuable companies in the world today, none of them were consensus at seed. And so those are the things that really stand out about venture. Your question around brand building. I think for me it's like the first step is you have to figure out what you're really obsessed with. And if you do some soul searching and if you look in the mirror, you can find the things that are obsessions, not hobbies, not interests, but the things one can commit a career to. And I did. I mean venture was my obsess. I was studying it up and down, day and night. And once you do that, you can find gaps in the market. There are still big gaps in this category, in the venture category, huge ones that I see every day. And if you think about content or building a brand across topic formats, Styles and distribution, that's kind of my architecture. You can find gaps along those four pillars. Um, you know, for me, formats, I found a huge gap in audio. But you can look at formats like video writing, long form, short form. Right. There's styles of content. So when I started, I chose the interview format, which was the predominant format. This is what we're doing right now. But there's documentary, there's news, there's historical deep research. Right. Like hardcore history or the guys over at, um, acquired. Right, right. There's comedy, there's education. And so for me, yeah, no one was covering audio. The interview format was something that I felt very comfortable with, like something that would work with me, something that made me nervous, but I felt like I could execute. Um, and it helped me solve the key problems I was facing in building a venture firm, which I'm happy to talk more about that. But everything kind of lined up with this format, with this style as something that would provide value to a large audience because it was uncovered. It was a massive gap and something that could fill in the key challenges I was facing in building a venture brand.

Speaker A: That's, I mean, Nick, that is what we have been talking about with everybody on raising the brand is all about authenticity.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's like you, you just got to figure out what the thing that drives you is and make sure that manifests externally.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That's the, maybe that's the underline of all of this, is you didn't come from a media background. This was not something that, you know, you had charted. To say, like, this is the path I'm going to go down. But like you said, that soul searching moment that really thinking about how am I going to execute the thing I want to execute. I'm a voracious learner. I've seen this gap. I'm going to push myself outside of my comfort zone. And I'm sure at this point, right, it's maybe you can remember that first episode, but it's so long ago. The evolution and the confidence you get around that of what that brand is in the public, um, it matters.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that's sort of how you establish it 100%.

Speaker B: Couldn't agree more.

Speaker A: Well, maybe taking that one step further to blend in, sort of new stack as you were building and the full ratchet kind of in tandem. So like I said, there's, there's hundreds of podcasts out there. Now as you think about it from your seat, both as a GP and as a podcaster, what's the key to standing out um, for those who are thinking about using this to build their brand, and I think about it as an lp being a sophisticated audience, I'll say, how do you think that could be interpreted? Right. How should they consume a podcast and think about is that a credible representation of the manager or platform?

Speaker B: I think there's demand out there for a lot. I think a lot of people aren't hyper aware of what they're looking for.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: But when it's created, if you fill a gap, right. Like we talked about topics, we talked about formats, we talked about styles, and we talked about distribution. Like across any of those four, pick your category. Whether it's venture, private equity, you know, uh, roofing, I don't know, like whatever it is you do, there's going to be huge gaps in the market and those gaps will be filled. Right. If you look out to different types of content out there, you can see all these form factors present in different contexts for different topics. And so, um, there is an audience and there is demand for anything. Now is it a sizable audience? Is it one that makes sense? That's something you have to think about and run some numbers against. Um, you don't want to be so niche that you know, you're, you're just appealing to a group of five people out there. Uh, you want it to be meaningful for a variety of folks. And fortunately you and I operate in a, ah, segment that's quite popular. You know, whether you're a practicing VC or a service provider in the ecosystem, or you're just a public market investor. What is happening with early stage technology, artificial intelligence, quantum crypto, et cetera, is really important to sort of the intellectual exercise of investing. I think it's about studying the gaps, finding the area that you can fill. And you know, if you look at these different types of formats and styles out there, you can find things that other people have done. You know, I'm not afraid of stealing ideas. Like I'm stealing ideas every day, but I do it from other industries. You know, I look at things completely unrelated to venture capital and I will co opt that idea and uh, and use it, you know, for TFR or um, for other types of content that we're producing at newstack.

Speaker A: Sure. Inspiration and plagiarism, there is a line there, but I certainly think in this world, right back to the idea of uniqueness, right. There's, there's shades and variants and flavors of, you know, sort of the core premise that have been extrapolated by different people in different ways. Um, I think it's again, goes back to how you really define goals and how you want to get there. Um, and I should say too, from the other side of the table, as I think about listening to a GP who has a form of media that I'm consuming, whether that be written, podcast, video, whatever it is, um, I always call it the meeting before the meeting. I get to know people a little bit better. So as I think about brand, it gives you an opportunity to set the stage before you have that, that most valuable one to one conversation. So for folks who are interested in NewStack, they can listen to a lot of things around the podcast. You're not explicitly talking about the firm, but you're imparting a lot of the knowledge that you've gained. The way you ask questions, your level of curiosity, intentionality and acumen, it all comes through. So I think without putting words in your mouth, whether you intended to do that or not, there's an audience of folks, whether they be founders, co investors or LPs, that already feels like they know you a little bit.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, it's one of the best things about audio. Right. I'll get on with LPs that often. Tell me, oh, I feel like I know you because I've been listening to you for years. Or when I started my venture career as an allocator, like, I listened to the first 50 episodes of TFR. Um, I had, like I mentioned, I had John Callahan a true the other day and he was saying, oh, my favorite episodes are X, Y and Z. And I'm so, so happy, ah, to finally be on. And for him to say that to me was like a little shocking. You know, he felt like he knew me already. So it's a great way to kind of break through that fourth wall, as they call it in Hollywood, but actually create a relationship with the listener, you know, without having to meet with them one on one. And that really warms things up, you know, when you do meet them.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, maybe let's take it one step further. So as you've built newstack, how much or how little of the firm's brand is tied to tfr and maybe what are some of the other core pillars of, of how you think about the firm's brand, um, that maybe are outside of what you're doing with the full ratchet?

Speaker B: Well, I think it's inextricably connected at this point. Um, funny enough, most people know us for TFR more so than newstack. So like, you know, the investment firm is newstack um, and a lot of people are, whether they listen, you know, day in, day out or not, many in the industry are, are pretty aware of us at this point, which is great, as we've been doing the podcast for a long time. Um, but they're, you know, they're connected. It's an important part of everything we do. I try not to make the podcast an advertisement for NewStack. That's not the goal. You know, it's kind of a give first mentality. So let's have meaningful, kind of like what you're doing, let's have meaningful interviews with, uh, people that have some perspective on something and uh, let's provide value to a high volume of people out there searching for that value. Right? If you found a real gap, there's probably other people like you that want something like what you're doing, Matt. And, but to date there probably wasn't anyone doing what you were doing. And so you filled that gap. So they're very connected. I think for NewStack, you know, we try and focus on clarity, whether it's clarity and simplicity across messaging, across value add, across awareness. So let's keep the message really simple. If you go to our website, you're going to see right at the top investing in outsiders, which is going to appeal to some and it's not going to appeal to others. And that's by design. You know, even, um, when we're hiring, like I have very specific job descriptions for the people I'm, I'm hiring. You've probably seen that famous quote in the newspaper, um, from the guy that's many, uh, many years ago was running like a, um, um, some sort of shipping vessel to the States. And it's, it's like, you know, very little chance of success, high likelihood of death or injury, you know, looking for people that, you know, want to change the world or something. It's really out there. And so we try and be out there. We try and be really clear. We are not investing in consensus central casting founders in the Valley. Uh, we're looking for people that have been underestimated, come from other industries, right, have beaten the odds or want to beat the odds, you know, the really hungry sort of outsiders that can overcome. And so those are some of the principles we think about on the venture side.

Speaker A: Uh, I love it. I'm going to ask you a question a little bit off, off piece, but I think the, the idea of non consensus, contrarian outsider almost. I mean we're in an industry and venture of outliers, but when we think about brand, right, you don't have an identifiable tam. I guess when you think about it, it's insiders versus outsiders. Outsiders being more distributed. You don't invest in the Valley, but you invest everywhere else. So how do you kind of think about getting, you know, the blast radius of the people you want to get given that they're all so different in archetype?

Speaker B: Well, it's tough. I mean, I think fortunately for us, we had a deal flow problem prior to the podcast, which was not nearly enough and not uh, high enough quality. And as, as soon as we launched the podcast, I don't know, within like three months we had Brad Feld and, and winblad and some others on that just like spiked the audience. All of a sudden I was faced with way more volume of deal flow than I could have ever imagined. I didn't know how to deal with it. And part of quality is quantity. Like if you get a large quantity, there should be some quality in there. You know, it's a little different than like your series. A fintech tier one firm in the Valley that knows exactly what 25 companies they're tracking every year. Like we're playing the opposite game. We're investing in pre seed. So the, the sea of the uninvestable, right, the hundreds of thousands of startups out there that are looking for funding, that have never been anointed, have never raised a pre seed or a seed round. Um, and so with that volume issue, again, it's a problem, it's a challenge. And so we, we had to create a system and we had to create a process that allowed us to filter this volume at scale and get through it and sift out the diamonds in the rough or the needle and the haystack. So there are a lot of different shapes and sizes to startups, but there is a very consistent archetype for the founder that we're looking for. And so we've really centralized on that and we use that as the primary source of filtering. Um, obviously we don't want to invest in lifestyle businesses. We're not investing in services businesses. So they have to be SaaS or AI driven SaaS or interesting deep tech businesses, um, that have a chance to go venture scale. But beyond that, the common thread between our portfolio is the founder and we have a whole archetype and system around selecting for that.

Speaker A: Yes, well, as I've been able to see from the inside out, I mean, I think there's, there's one thing about creating a brand that then creates a Ton of pull and fills the top of the funnel. But without a system to be able to know what you're looking for, process all of that. So I guess maybe going back to your Danaher days and kind of thinking about systems orientation, everything you've built at NewStack is not just about the brand at the top level, but being very systematic and organized and rigorous about everything you do.

Speaker B: Absolutely. It's the only way that we can hire, teach, get momentum, get velocity. Like, be on the same page, be in sync. Like the firm is six people. We're still quite small. But it's not just me. Right. There's other people here doing deals and they're killers. Their judgment is great, they're super smart. But without a system and without a framework and without some structure, you can't just hire somebody and say, oh, it's an apprentice business. Why don't you shadow me for a couple of years and hope that they end up investing with a similar framework that you use. Uh, so we really have systematized and it allows us to move much faster and be in great sync as a team. Yeah.

Speaker A: In short, the brand, the systems allow the brand to amplify as loud as it can and handle anything that comes through there. So I think that is something we talk about too is how do you get your voice out there, how do you get well known and how. What do people associate with your brand and who you are? That is half of this. Right. Maybe even you can pick your percentage, but making sure you can operationalize that is the other piece which we often don't talk about enough, which you've spent a ton of time in energy building, which is important.

Speaker B: I think candidly, a lot of people in venture are not very process oriented and systematic. Right. I talk to LPs all the time that say, how is it that you send your quarterlies on the 1st of every quarter like clockwork and I can't get them from 80% of my managers. Like I can't get updates. And so, you know, there's a lot of ways to do this business and ours is not the only way. Um, but we think, you know, over the long term, uh, our plan is to be the most persistent, highest returning venture fund of all time and to stay in that top decile in. The only way to do that over time is to, you know, have some immutable, absolute things you're looking for in winners and, and have a system that allows you, um, to do that with velocity and consistency over time.

Speaker A: Gotcha. I think that's um, something we'll again pivot into the next question thinking about, given that you've done this, you've got a decade under your belt, both firm management, brand building, let's say there's a new GP building their firm today, um, what's the one sort of branding or communication decision that you'd encourage them to make to get right early? Because it does compound over time, I

Speaker B: think, whether it's startups or trying to build a content brand, what I've seen a lot of folks do is jump in on a new idea, a bright shiny object, without thoroughly making a decision to commit their life to that for the next 10 years.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And the results of that, I mean, I see it with my friends, I see it, you know, with my family. Like people get excited about some, oh, I want to learn a new language. Right. I want to learn Spanish. And New Year's resolutions come about, oh, I want to do X. And um, you know, a couple months later they're gone. Right. And so, you know, I think if you're going to commit your career to something and you want to do it the right way, it's got to be. You got to be playing the long game and you have to be careful with the decisions you make and make sure you've done that self study and that self reflection and thought about the market thoroughly. And that's not me encouraging people to press the brakes, you know, and like move slowly. It's just do the thoughtful self exercise first to make sure that what you're signing up for is a true obsession. Because in the ups and downs, there's going to be many ups and downs. I mean, I've had so many failures, Matt. Oh my gosh. Like, um, I didn't take a paycheck for five years when I, when I started this whole process and we had made some money. But five years is a long time. Like, you know, my wife was asking me, you know, years into the podcast, like, is this gonna work or is this like a hobby? You know, and I was like, you know, give me a little more time. We're really close. You know, I'm signing sponsors now. I've hired an assistant. Like, we're gonna get this thing running, we're gonna raise a fund, but, um, I don't think it should take everyone that long with whatever it is they're choosing to do. Um, but, you know, I, I would encourage everyone make those decisions thoughtfully, carefully, make sure it's a true obsession and make sure it's something you want to sign up for, for a long time and have like a ten year goal, not just a six month goal.

Speaker A: Uh, that uh, it certainly is a thread through this whole conversation of just making sure you are doing the thing that you want to be doing. And it doesn't mean you can't change course or you can't learn lessons and you should improve every day. But uh, yeah, I think that to the essence of the question, it's not one decision you make at one point in time. It's starting with the thing that you really spending the time in advance of really getting started on the journey, um, and knowing that's where you want to go.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: Very cool. Well Nick, we always love to finish with a couple bonus round questions here, so I've got three for you. I'm going to ask you the first one. What's your favorite brand outside of finance? Maybe you don't even have a favorite brand in finance, but outside of finance, what is your favorite brand?

Speaker B: Oh gosh, my favorite brand outside of finance. You know, I think uh, there's this new brand I discovered in textiles and clothing.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That's called Travis Matthew.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they do like a lot of golf. Golf was kind of their wedge. Um, um, but I was in there, I, I was going to Mexico and I needed shorts and I live in Chicago. It's like it's a blizzard outside today. Right. And there's not a whole lot of places you can buy shorts at this time of year. But I go in there and they were describing how people consider this brand to be like the Lululemon for men tried on their stuff and it's like insanely comfortable. Everything fits really well. Yeah, I think it's like really an interesting thing how they wedged in with kind of this golf first, uh, brand and now they've been able to expand to be kind of this athleisure wear that still has like collars and stuff. So you look you know, buttoned up. But I think that they're on to something. I think that this is going to be a huge brand and most men, I don't think want to buy a bunch of Lululemon stuff. I don't think um, Viori's popular, but I could see this Travis Matthew becoming really big. Um, so that's one kind of in the general space, a podcast I really like is um, like smartless. I think they do a really nice job. I think they have the right characters, good guests, you know, good banter and comedy is still um, a style that's far underrepresented across different topics in different categories. Um, now to do comedy, well, you know, you kind of need that gene. Um, so that's part of it. But um, I'm always thinking about, you know, what can, what are the next sort of big brands and venture. And I think we've yet to see somebody do a really good either audio, video, um, or other formats, you know, that infuses comedy in the right way. Because I mean that would be great. Just like, you know, plugging in every week and getting a good laugh out of what's going on in the industry.

Speaker A: We could use it with all the uh, the heaviness and seriousness. Seriousness of everything else we consume.

Speaker B: That would be. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Um, all right, Nick, what's a, what's a buzzword you'd like to get rid of in the finance industry?

Speaker B: Who?

Speaker A: I'm sure there are many, but yeah,

Speaker B: I mean, get rid of one, uh, that I don't like is adverse selection.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Like you could say Apple, Nvidia, Amazon, Microsoft, you could say all of those were adverse selection at the seed stage. Um, I like non consensus because non consensus and. Right. Is the way that you make money in this industry. And uh, it's just really easy I think for a lot of sort of pejorative VCs or LPs just to say, oh, uh, this is adverse selection. This is basically a firm that just invests in shitty businesses.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And uh, you know, if, if that were the case, then most of the biggest companies we know and respect today would not have been funded. So I think it's uh, you know, it's a way that folks like to kind of be dismissive about various strategies. And um, I think there's a lot of money to be made in the adverse selection category, which we refer to as non consensus.

Speaker A: It's a, it's a glass half full, glass half empty spin zone kind of comment. But I absolutely agree. Like that is following the herd is, you know, can feel right sometimes, but you know, I guess you feel more comfortable if you're following the herd and it's wrong versus hanging yourself out on your own.

Speaker B: That's right. That's right. You would know better than most.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Last question. What's, what's one piece of advice you'd give to your younger self entering the industry?

Speaker B: It's a long game.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: It is a really long game. I'm a long cycle thinker, as I know you are, Matt, but I mean the podcast, it took a long time for that to Become a profit making, cash flowing, uh, going concern, standalone entity. It now pays for multiple people at the firm which is a nice subsidy for the investment side of the business. But not just that, it's also the investments. I mean I've been investing myself since 14, I think 15 and they take a long time. Like we've got a nice, I can't disclose which one, but we've got a nice 30x plus returner coming up very soon. Like DPI. Not just on paper, sure, which is wonderful. But that investment was done a long time ago and so um, I knew it was a long cycle business. I did not fully appreciate how long it takes to get into the carry and to get the realizations. And every once in a while you get lucky and something happens early. But usually those are not the 100x type. Um, so for anyone getting in this business, like if you're a long cycle thinker, extend that out a little longer because it's, it takes a long time and there's just a lot of bumps in the road. Like even the best ones, there's going to be really hard times. And so you need really resilient people. Uh, you need to lock arms and you know, help each other and support each other and if you do that they come like we just had. You and I were talking, we just had a banner year last year was I posted about this on LinkedIn. 19 up rounds, 140 million raise. It actually turned out to be 20 up rounds. I, I missed one in my calc. But um, we just had like a massive year for the firm. Like a year like none other from a performance standpoint. But um, it took a long time to get there and we've been in this crazy trough post zert for a long time which has been tough as you know. And so be patient.

Speaker A: Yes, patience, persistence, clarity, consistency. I love the line of uh, what it took to years to become an overnight success. Uh, but keep plugging away. It's been a pleasure to get to know you. It's been a pleasure to have the opportunity to interview somebody who's uh, usually on the other side of it. So thanks for sharing all your wisdom and I'm sure our audience will love it.

Speaker B: Thanks Matt. This is so fun. I appreciate you having me. All right.