Putting Statelessness on the Map with Aleksejs Ivashuk

Speaker A: Values and principles should be at the backbone of any governance structure. For many stateless people, having a refugee status is a privilege. It's a golden ticket out of statelessness. The weight of having to deal with these challenges, problems that were not made by you, the failure of the system, the lack of proper good governance mechanisms. We have to keep in mind that the governments are not God made. They are a human enterprise. They that have certain absolute powers. And when we mix absolute power with human involvement, unfortunately things come about that maybe were not even intended and we are the ones who pay that cost.

Speaker B: Protection leadership means ensuring that the safety, the dignity and the rights of the people affected by humanitarian crisis guide every decision we make. Humanitarian leaders in field operations need to work together to advocate and to keep attention firmly on those most at risk. Protection is everybody's business. Hello and welcome to the Protection Leadership uh, podcast. Uh, I am Panos Vumsis, the host uh, for the podcast and I'm delighted today to welcome with me uh, Alexis Ivashuk, who is a leading advocate for, for stateless people and a member of the Apatrit network. What makes really Alexis voice so unique is that he speaks not only from a professional experience point, uh, of view, but also from a personal experience. Having grown up as a stateless person himself with a lot to share on his uh, personal experience, Alexis has dedicated his life on uh, raising awareness on the issues of uh, this invisible struggle about uh, stateless people, people who don't have a nationality and um, to really be also be pushing for solutions for real solutions for these people to make sure that their protection, their recognition, their inclusion, more importantly the dignity and respect is reinstated for uh, all these people. So in today's conversation I'll be asking Alexis questions uh, about his own experience and I'd like to ask you first start Alexis with a more personal question and ask you really to go back to the beginning, can you tell us a little bit about your own story, uh, growing up and without a nationality and how this has shaped who you are today.

Speaker A: Thank you, thank you for your question. Thank you for having me here. Absolutely. I can share some of my story. I was born in Latvia to parents who are from Latvia, um, on my father's side. He was born in Western Ukraine and um, his family is ancestrally, um, Polish, Ukraine, Ukrainian and he came to Latvia at an early age. My mother, her parents came to Latvia because they had relatives in Latvia. So we have very strong roots on the territory. But unfortunately Latvia didn't um, allow one third of the population to claim Equal nationality. Right after independence, they created an alternative status. They called it non citizen status. And then according to International Law, 1954 Convention, it uh, fits under uh, the definition of statelessness due to how, um, we may have a factual nationality, which Latvia actually openly admits that we are factually Latvian nationals. But legally speaking, under the operation of the state law, we do not have a legal nationality. I actually grew up in US and Canada. My mother was concerned that we may not have a future in Latvia. So she was a respected marine biologist. She was invited to Italy and US um, and I grew up, um, in the new world, uh, another continent. And initially, like many stateless people, I was not aware of my own statelessness. It is hard to process that you are stateless. Uh, we're all products of our environment and that environment is a state. It is only the state that is able to cause statelessness. And it's unknown for any state to openly admit to having caused, uh, statelessness. This is why many people don't know about it. Not just stateless people, but it's not a priority or there's no awareness about it. Even in high levels of the un, um, or in government, even in the same governments that cause the issue. There's oftentimes not processing what the are actually doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, you're right, M. Most people don't know actually that there are people who are stateless. And if I can ask you what was kind of the hardest moment for you as a stateless person? If you can give me some examples from your everyday life. Going to school or going to a health clinic or feeling really like you belong somewhere as a person.

Speaker A: I guess one of the biggest difficulties is the unpredictable discrimination and exclusion that you face. Um, and you can never expect it. You're always left at the mercy of subjective decision making. Power of authority. That itself does not clearly understand what status you have. So I remember facing all kinds of challenges when we moved to us. I actually remember there was a challenge that uh, I was not. All of a sudden I, um, was going to school. But then all of a sudden they told me, I cannot no longer go to school. They said, uh, my status is not clear. I mean, as a kid I was excited about that. I got to stay home, but obviously it's a very bad thing. And then throughout my life I've faced plenty of challenges that other status people also face. And being denied boarding multiple times when flying somewhere. And the burden is on you and the financial cost is always on you. Even though you didn't create this problem. Even there were instances where I was denied, um, trying to rent a place. Uh, the landlord told me I shouldn't be trying to resolve uh, my status business in her apartment. And I explained to her that I was not doing anything illegal. Actually what she was saying was really illegal. And there's so many other things. Financial exclusion. I've had my bank accounts uh, frozen.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: The interesting one I guess is when I lived in US and I actually got hired by US Senate and we signed a contract and um, I arrived and they told me oh, the law just changed, uh, between when we signed and you are arriving we can no longer pay foreigners. And for a month I was running around the U.S. senate legal office trying to resolve this. Uh, so obviously they had to abide by the obligation of already a signed contract. Uh, but due to my lacking American nationality I uh, was um, not being paid but resolved it and actually made some friends along the way. And that's one of the actually great lessons about statelessness is that it creates a lot of challenges but it also helps you thrive as well and develop it's life at the extreme difficulty mode. And you learn a lot from that. I've actually met so many status people in different conferences and my organization hosts uh, an annual conference on statelessness. And I remember multiple times when we had these panels and stateless people are asked, do you regret uh, having experienced statelessness? And I'm um, yet to hear a stateless person say that they regret their experience. I'm sure there's some uh, stateless people that may have this view. But I find it interesting because as stateless people realize that the experience itself is valuable in teaching you about who we are as human beings, what kind of values we have and how we can fail with these values.

Speaker B: Yeah, sounds like you constantly had to find creative solutions to overcome and be able to do what uh, what you're able to do. But also what's amazing Alex, uh, with your own experience, you turn this experience into something positive. And actually you moved into leading as an advocate through the creation of the Aperture Network to put the question of stateless on the map. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And even before that I want to follow uh, up on what you just said in terms of turning something so extremely challenging into a positive. And as stateless people we're forced to do that. We don't have a choice. And I have to say that that whole process is very straining. It's very stressful. You never know what will be the results. Whether Things will be for the worse. Um, and that's why I think so many stateless people in the world, they have to be respected because they live through their life on extreme difficulty, through extreme difficulties, and they find ways to thrive. And that's something I want to also leave as a message to all status people in the world. We should not be ashamed of what we have experienced. We should actually take some pride in that because we don't have it easy. And there's a lot of respect. I think that should be, uh, there for that fact.

Speaker B: Wow, that's a positive message about the not being ashamed but actually turning into a positive in your own lives.

Speaker A: Yes, but it can truly, uh, drive people insane. I faced this myself where it's too much, you're constantly on edge.

Speaker B: In what way drive you insane?

Speaker A: The weight of it. The weight of having to deal with these challenges, problems that were not made by you. The failure of the system, the failure of having the lack of sometimes proper good governance mechanisms, oftentimes not even maybe maliciously designed. But we have to keep in mind that the governments are not God made. Uh, they are a human enterprise that have certain absolute powers. And when we mix absolute power with human involvement, unfortunately things come about that maybe were not even intended and we are the ones who pay that cost. Uh, and I just have to m say that I am doing this because I want to help other stateless people who are even in less advantageous position or even in much worse circumstance. I fought my way into decent living standards. It was a big fight. But I know a lot of status people can't even find the first step, cannot even find the first opportunity to even try to get into the sort of same luck and circumstances. I fortunately have been uh, able to. But to get back to your question, sorry.

Speaker B: So let me come back to the question, which is that experience, you turn it into something positive by creating the apatric network. Uh, can you tell me a little bit more about this apatrid network?

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: What does it mean? Apatried.

Speaker A: So apatried is actually, uh, it's a word in, um, it comes from Greek language. It means without fatherland or without, uh, homeland. Many European languages use this word for uh, status people. So somebody who's an apatread is a person without a country. And uh, I started Apatry Network five and a half years ago in uh, 2020, uh, around 2020. And it was a response to the systemic gaps we have in knowledge about statelessness, but also about the lack of connection between affected people. Then the organizations that are supposed to address it. So I've been involved in the field of statelessness for almost 10 years now. So as soon as I came back to my home continent of Europe, I realized that I need to be involved as much as possible. I started to lecture for, in their um, summer courses. Uh, and as I started um, to be more and more of a researcher and lecturer of the subject and attending conferences, I realized uh, talking to my UN colleagues and NGO colleagues and even government colleagues, I realized that things are not in place. I assumed that these organizations were already connected but affected people and affected people were providing input to these organizations about what the reality is on the ground. None of this was in place. And I realized that stateless people themselves are disconnected from each other. And so I decided that we really need to organize and to have stateless led organizations. There's been refugee led organizations, but stateless people are, our condition is very different compared to the refugees. And uh, for many stateless people having um, a refugee status is a privilege. It's a golden ticket out of statelessness. Very few stateless people are able to get that ticket. And I'm unusual in that. I've also become later in my life a refugee as well. Uh, because I did eventually find a country where I felt really at home and happy in. And that country is called Ukraine. And um, due to the invasion um, of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, um, I had to leave that country.

Speaker B: Wow. So not only being a stateless but becoming a refugee and fleeing a conflict in the middle of the war in Ukraine.

Speaker A: Yes, but during that time when I moved to Ukraine is actually when Aperture Network, um, started thriving, developing. And it's an EU regional network. So it connects not just stateless individuals, it connects refugee uh, led and exile led status led organizations and communities. So we connect to each other so we can improve our knowledge of statelessness. But also to have a collective voice on the subject and have collective representation. And we focus primarily on awareness raising. We provide a lot of guest lectures to universities, international organizations. We're trying to get Amnesty to focus on this more. They haven't done much on this. Human Rights Watch hasn't responded to us. So if they're listening please send us an email. It's a very overlooked uh, topic, much having to do with how we live in a state centric reality. And when you're stateless you're not on anybody's interest. Our interests are not in any agenda because of the imbalances of power.

Speaker B: So it's really the network you're trying to put the issue of stateless people on the map, on the table.

Speaker A: Yes. And aside from awareness raising, we also help uh, in legal assistance. We connect uh, stateless people with our wonderful um, NGO partners that handle statelessness work. And uh, we also do impact projects where we uh, highlight some specific barrier that status people face. And oftentimes it's the same barrier that refugees, uh, face. And then we go after, for points of, you know, going at points of least resistance to see what can be done to remove these barriers. And some of these barriers are very simple. UN for instance, uh, is not, uh, most of the un, uh, doesn't allow uh, status people to be employed because in the nationality dropdown, which is everywhere in all applications but in the UN nationality drop down, proper selection for stateless uh, people is missing. But worse yet is that the HR and legal teams don't even know what to do with an application from a stateless person. I have uh, been involved in the subject for seven years, so if we can get something like this done, that would be fantastic. We actually helped UNHCR remove these barriers and now status people can get hired, uh, build UNHCR in a very clear, transparent structural way. As opposed to having to depend on lock or personal contacts to override these barriers.

Speaker B: Yeah, no. Amazing. Alexei, want to ask you on a personal level, how does it feel to be stateless?

Speaker A: It feels uncertain. It feels like you are in international anarchy.

Speaker B: International anarchy because you are. Because you don't have a nationality? Basically, yes.

Speaker A: Because uh, we all, you know, in the state centric world we live in, you know, everybody belongs to a state, so we're useful to a state. When you're outside of that use, where you're outside of that belonging, uh, it is a very precarious condition. Uh, and the states oftentimes don't even want to recognize us as existing. It sort of sheds bad light on the whole nation's state model of governance. It's a critical flaw. Statelessness shouldn't exist. And this also explains why nobody knows about it. Because uh, the completely disempowered people, people and our voice, uh, we struggle in the information space.

Speaker B: It's kept as a low profile. It's not something that governments want to talk about.

Speaker A: Not even by design. I think it was just by. There was one philosopher that said something about bankers in terms of they function the way, same way, uh, uh, a boulder is rolling down the hill. They just have a certain function and maximize profit and each function without noticing side effects. So it's the Same way with states. Sometimes I think they make certain decisions, sometimes knee jerks. And given that all governments are human run, you know, human beings are. We have certain weaknesses. We can be very ethnocentric, uh, or ethnophobic or xenophobic or racist or sexist. 24 countries in the world don't allow women to pass on nationality. And that's right there as a recipe for many children to this day being born. Status.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Uh, so when you talk about people and you know, so I want to ask you, what are some of the misperceptions that people have about stateless people? Why is it important perhaps to correct these misperceptions?

Speaker A: Uh, oh, yes, I love this topic. This is actually how I usually start my guest lectures. So there's a lot of misconceptions. So as I mentioned, in the information space, the voiceless, uh, remain voiceless and the states usually try to avoid accountability. So a lot of misconceptions come about even from that situation. So some of the common ones is that stateless people are from somewhere else. Vast majority of stateless people in the world have very, very strong roots on the territory, ironically, usually much stronger roots than the state itself.

Speaker B: Really. Wow.

Speaker A: If you look at the Bedouin, Palestinians, Rohingya communities, uh, or even, to be honest, in the Baltics, the minorities or, you know, there were even, uh, obviously also, um, many indigenous population in the Baltics or in all of these regions that were also made stateless. Um, no matter where you look, no matter mass statelessness, uh, case you look at, we have to come to realization that the state is actually usually very fragile. It can never guarantee to its own members what political power will come in tomorrow and what kind of theories it has and what kind of exclusion does it want to practice, even if it harms itself by doing that. And this is why we need to have healthy civil society and for people to pay attention, maybe less to sports figures or movie stars and more to actually what's going on with human rights or government structure. But that's, um, a struggle, a separate struggle for us as well, to try to get people's attention in this competition with things, uh, that are kind of more entertaining. So other misconceptions is that this is marginal issue. This is not a marginal issue. Uh, there's serious data gaps. If you go to the reports from the UN or even international organizations, they all admit that half the states do not, uh, want to even have any data on statelessness. They're not cooperative on even recognizing that statelessness as possible. Uh, that is including those states that are very much known for causing mass statelessness. So we're having a huge chunk of the data missing. So the 4.4 million number that UNHCR sometimes uses, we've been successfully advocating for UNHCR to stop doing that. That's a number of status people that have been officially determined through the lens and framework of the state, any state, to be stateless. Now, where you're made stateless, no state is willing to admit that. But international community, this is where it gets worse. And this is why it's so horrible to have statelessness. This is where technically the international community should step in and absorb, uh, the status people. Um, and as we have seen, unfortunately with uh, what was happening in uh, mid 20th century in Europe, the international community just doesn't want to do that. Each state is actually worried that if they start to help some status people, all status people in the world start coming to them. And this is where there's contradiction. If there's just 4 million of us, what's the problem? Absorb us. So deep down I think they know that there's way more.

Speaker B: The problem is much bigger than what is stated, given the non recognition of the numbers and what it is.

Speaker A: Exactly so, and there's many other misconceptions, to be honest. So people are surprised that when they look at me that I say stateless. But uh, in Europe, uh, it's the same as anywhere else. Most mass statelessness here is in situ. If you look at Balkan countries, Baltic or the Roma population, we are not from somewhere else, we are from this territory. Um, but you know, possibly some part of, uh, our group maybe had more recent migration, uh, sort of stories. But then oftentimes it's not as simple as that because many families are intermixed, so it doesn't even make sense to talk about it from that angle.

Speaker B: So Alex, if we look at the problem from a higher level, what would you say it is? I don't know, the legal or the bureaucratic or the political obstacle for people who are stateless. What would you say is the biggest obstacle?

Speaker A: Human nature. Human nature, I feel like, because governments, uh, obviously we need them to be, well, they are human run. Uh, and as I mentioned, there are certain frailties and um, the fact that we as human beings are not rational purely, but we have irrationalities about that. And that gets into our legal frameworks, that gets into our political frameworks, and you know, the human nature, we have wonderful capacity, our brain is wonderful, it's capable of a lot of things, but it also ends up our figments of imagination and confusions of cause and effect is also what ends up us, ah, willing to cause all kinds of atrocities to each other. I have to sometimes think of this quote from Albert Einstein. Universe and human stupidity are infinite. So those two things he was sure, but he was not sure about the universe.

Speaker B: Oh my goodness.

Speaker A: So the quote is that, you know, there's certain human frailties and I'm not sure what the answer is to that. To be honest. We need to make effort to be good to each other and to have the rule of law as it's supposed to be and um, not to have it be um, infused with irrationalities that we prove to have so many of. So I think it's a hard question, but it requires a collective effort to be honest. And I guess this is why we're doing it, to talk about this.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And it's this collective effort I want to talk because when you look today m at us, the humanitarian system, or at governments or the broader system of this world that we all live, where would we say we fall short in terms of addressing uh, issues of statelessness, in terms of protecting the statelessness and hopefully moving to solutions for people who are stateless?

Speaker A: Yes. Thank you for that. And I want to go back to the point I made and build on it. And it's about connecting the ground level, ground level expertise and experience to these sort of top down structures. We cannot resolve topics, issues like statelessness through the Crystal Palace. You need the reality checks, you need to have really good connection between what's happening on the ground and what is at policy level, what is uh, in our case at the EU regional level. Um, and unfortunately this connection is very weak. I want to give credit to the UN for trying to make a difference as of uh, late, and it's been quite late. I want to play on words on that. It's been over 70 years that this issue has been recognized as a really critical issue. There's even a quote from Gandhi actually back in the 50s where he said, notice the mass statelessness that was happening in Europe back then. And he said m, this is a really critical flaw of the European nation state model of governance. And he concluded saying, but it looks like Europeans are beginning to pay attention to this, to address this, to make sure their system works well. So I think on that latter point, of course, uh, we have quite the issue because that's not what has been happening. It went an entirely different way. So uh, really we need the stronger connection between affected People and uh, these sort of political decision making, uh, bodies that should not just, uh, tokenistically take in our input, but involve us at the dialogue tables, involve us at high level, uh, discussions. Because we can help save your nation state model of governance. Because it's failing. It is showing that in recent years that it's not working well. There's too much strife, there's too much violence, there's too many wars, there's too much displacement and refugees and stateless people. We do not choose to be stateless or refugees. This was forced on us by the failure of the system to provide the one thing it's designed to do, security and stability. So help us help you. We'd be happy to do so.

Speaker B: Wow, strong words. And it's something you find yourself in and you have to live with it. And you have the struggles. You talked about the importance of connecting people, understand better. Uh, but also bottom line is about the action that needs to be taken to alleviate some of these obstacles. In your experience, can you give me an example maybe of an action that the government or somebody took that really made a difference for the stateless people

Speaker A: in terms of good practices? We have these, but they're sort of in pockets, sort of spread out.

Speaker B: Just give me an example.

Speaker A: Yes. I have to think of Georgia. We've been actually trying to connect with Georgia and this is not something, a result of our work. This is something they've had, but we've been quite surprised they have this. And Georgia has a, uh, wonderful culture and tradition of being very welcoming. And they have a really good policy of allowing freedom of movement to stateless people from everywhere. As long as stateless people have, uh, some sort of permanent residence that they can prove, which is itself a, uh, barrier. But many stateless people do have some sort of residence status, legal status in their country. And Georgia allows such stateless people to come visit Georgia for up to a year.

Speaker B: Oh, really? So there's an open border and ability to enter.

Speaker A: Yeah. So good practices like these exist. There's other practices in the banking sphere, for instance, uh, that we're also trying to connect with some banks and talk to them. We talked to some of them already and we need these good practices replicated. This is, again, this is part of like, involve us, involve us in these discussions. We can help you sort out where the good parts are so we can replicate them so that, um, you know, we live in, in a bit of a better world.

Speaker B: You know, Alexis, listening to you, I feel a sense of energy and compassion in your voice for the issue of stateless people. So I want to ask you, what is it that kind of motivated you and get you going on this important issue, uh, to be the void. Uh, and if you want, what lesson have you learned that, uh, people should understand better about the less stateless people?

Speaker A: I think it's about doing the right thing. So when I had to make a difficult decision whether to be involved, especially more openly with my name attached to the subject, I knew I had nothing to gain. I actually had everything to lose. I'm not trying to resolve my, uh, statelessness. It was never about that. Uh, because my family had political connections with US Senators, we had pathways opened up to us that then cascaded into further opportunities. Um, and I could have retired somewhere, received citizenship somewhere and just forgotten about it. But what states have taught me is that principles and values matter. It's not about just short term perceived interests. They always talk about perceived national interests. And what they need to understand is that they may not be pursuing that interest correctly, they may be perceiving it in a rather short term way. So values and principles, fundamental rights, values and principles should be at the backbone of any governance structure. And so statelessness has really taught me that. And it drove me forward to be consistent, entrenching myself in such considerations and to follow sort of the more moral code as opposed to, uh, just pursue self interest. Because to be honest, I'm having doubts whether we even know what our interests are. But I think we're all aware what is wrong. And all states, by even refusing to call statelessness by its name, they also know that it's a wrong. So I'm looking forward to any discussions we can make possible to correct that wrong.

Speaker B: No, I think you're standing on solid ground, basing yourself on values and principles and being the voice not for yourself, but a broader community, millions of people around the world who are impacted by the fact that they were born in a stately situation. It also looks like, like this situation of being stateless has possibly shaped who you are, uh, in terms of your advocacy and your next steps with moving forward.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. And this is actually something I really appreciated, um, in experiencing statelessness. It's a lesson I really appreciated. It actually is a scary thought for me to think that what if I would have had citizenship and never experienced it? I would have been a completely different person. I would not have been able to learn how things truly are and where are the gaps. And it definitely would not have been leading me to a path where I can help others. And I'm quite happy that in my life I've been able to help others. And after all is said and done and I'm gone, that's going to be my eternal story. And I'm happy with that. And it makes me feel, uh, good and sleep well at night. So I think that's the most important thing.

Speaker B: Thank you. So, uh, Alexis, what would you say are the most important changes that are needed globally in order to ensure that people who are stateless are recognized, are, uh, protected, are included? What would you like to see happen?

Speaker A: We need awareness about the fact that there's a lot of mass statelessness. And it's not just simple binary. You're stateless or you're not. It comes with many different forms. It's tied also to how, um, legal notions of nationality, citizenship are defined, how they're treated, but also how legal identification is treated. There's many kinds of, uh, stratified forms of legal identification. Um, some stateless people might be more fortunate because they have almost all rights, but maybe don't have political rights. In other cases, stateless people might not even be able to get a legal identification. So the Bidoon community, the Palestinians, they're oftentimes given security cards. Rohingya as well, many others. And it says on the security card, this is not a legal ID. And there's actually, according to the World bank, there's 850 million people who have no trace of legal identity whatsoever. That actually fits under the 1954 convention's definition of, um, statelessness because the state cannot recognize those it cannot see. It is not possible to have citizenship or nationality if you have no trace of legal identity. And this is where for those people actually the factual nationality, um, all of a sudden is used against them because the claims are made. But maybe you can claim a nationality. Yeah, but doesn't matter what happens in the future. We have to define whether they're stateless now or not in the present possible

Speaker B: to do it, because in most cases that's not possible. If it was possible, it would have offered a solution.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And the obstruction that we constantly face in trying to seek those solutions, that something is overlooked. So we need to, uh, foremost not just raise awareness, but also look at the systemic obstruction that many status people face even in trying to define themselves and define the problem, uh, or even trying to get their papers. So unfortunately, uh, there's too much of that and it's a challenge when you're completely disempowered.

Speaker B: And this is what makes me so happy to have you with me. Here as a guest. Yes. I'm actually going to ask you to look at the camera here, uh, on the left, and give a message to government, to humanitarian organizations, to the public in terms of, uh, what do you want them to hear about the stateless people, and what do you want them to do?

Speaker A: Well, my message is that we're also part of your societies. We're also from your territories. We're not from somewhere else. We're not aliens, we're not these people that don't belong. We are, as many of you have yourself, uh, have recognized nationals, factually, ancestrally, historically, your fellows, peers. And I understand there's all kinds of conflicts that happened throughout history and all kinds of disagreements. But holding these as central to how we should behave to each other, that is not the way to go. It's not going to pave a proper good path, uh, forward. So it's important for us to sit down and to have these dialogues, inclusive, of course, of people who are affected by these problems. And I think it's time that we openly, uh, call the problems by their names and try to establish accountability and have the maturity to, uh, go forward and resolve some of these really critical issues that the world faces and continues to just spark, spiral into a worse direction.

Speaker B: Well, thank you, Alexey Vashuk. It's been a delight and a pleasure to have you with me today. Thank you for opening your heart and for being such a strong voice for an issue that there isn't much understanding about and shedding more light to the challenges and wish you really the very best with your work. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker B: Thank you. And I wanted to say to all of you listeners, thank you for joining us today in, uh, today's podcast on protection leadership. And uh, I'm looking forward to seeing you in the next episode. Thank you and goodbye.