Centering Refugee Voices: The Fragility and Power of Protection

Ana Maria Diaz: In people forcibly displaced, everything it's around protection. I advocate for participation to be a, ah, seat in the table, but also for more humane conversations. It's not optional to include those with lived experience. They will tell you what a risk looks like for them. I don't call it the humanitarian reset, I call it the humanitarian failure. What happened? Show us how fragile protection structures can be, how easy it is for a people forcibly displaced to be vulnerable again.

Host: Protection leadership means ensuring that the safety, the dignity and the rights of the people affected by humanitarian crisis guide every decision we make. Humanitarian leaders in field operations need to work together to advocate and to keep attention firmly on those most at risk. Protection is everybody's business. Welcome to the Protection Leadership podcast. Today I'm really delighted to be joined by Ana Maria Diaz. Ana Maria comes from Venezuela. Uh, she's a lawyer, she's a refugee and a refugee advocate and she's the co founder and the president of the Coalition por Venezuela, which is really the largest network of Venezuelan civil society organizations. They are across 23 countries and really they are responding to the migration and to the displacement crisis that is taking place. She represented the coalition on the UNHCR's Advisory Board of organizations led by displaced and stateless people. This is a body that's been created with refugees, with displaced people to advise unhcr. And she's really one of the representatives and that brings together refugee led organizations, insights, thoughts, reflections to this global governing body. Her leadership has really shaped not just her professional experience and her work in legal advocacy, but also gave her a deep grounding on the refugee voices, bringing these voices really to the forefront through livid experiences, giving her a unique lens in terms of protection, in terms of rights, and in terms of meaningful participation of refugees to global platforms, decision making platforms and so on. So uh, Ana Maria, uh, welcome and wonderful to have you here on this podcast.

Ana Maria Diaz: Thank you so much for the invitation. Actually, I think this is my first interview that it's around my experience and not uh, the experience of all Venezuelans. But thank you so much for this space.

Host: Well, you're very welcome. And it's really more the voice you represent and there's so many millions of people around the world who go through this, but also that advocacy part that you bring on this, uh, on the table. But um, Anna Maria, I wanted to ask you, I mean this program is about protection, about leadership on protection. What does this mean for you personally when you hear the word protection?

Ana Maria Diaz: I think in people that it's uh, forcibly displaced, everything it's around Protection. We cannot have discussions around durable solutions, integration, capacity building, meaningful participation. If we don't start this conversation around protection. I think it's the cornerstone of everything that it's related with human rights basically. Very often we talk around the Venezuelan crisis around integration. How can we integrate Venezuelans displace in Latin American countries such as ah, Colombia, Peru, things like that. And um, we forgot that protection can be something very fragile, something that we can easily lose. That it has to be every single step of the way, not only in one stage.

Host: And also it can be life changing, really life impacting for people who have gone through that. This has had an impact on you yourself, isn't it?

Ana Maria Diaz: Absolutely. 100%. Uh, we cannot say that someone is integrated if first is not protected. I think protection, it's the gate to having mental peace for a start. Having this feeling of uh, feeling safe in one place, feeling of belonging actually. And it happens to me. Um, my personal experience was very, very around protection. First working in the humanitarian field because I used to work as humanitarian protection officer, but now uh, with the forcibly displaced experience that I myself uh, have gone through. It's also another scope of it.

Host: Yeah. Uh, you yourself had to flee at some point and get into safety to be in a better protected environment.

Ana Maria Diaz: Absolutely. If I can share a piece of my story. I am a lawyer and I was practicing law in Venezuela, mostly criminal law. And then I switched to child protection in Venezuela. But all of the sudden I realized that I wanted to be more in the civil society scope. And I was one of the first co founders of Qualicion. But my day to day work was uh, in the humanitarian field. I was humanitarian protection officer, uh, for a large NGO in Venezuela. And then uh, I was kidnapped by the national police. And this is something that might look horrible. It was terrible. It was horrible. I was tortured by the national police. They asked for ransom to my family. This happened on a daily basis in Venezuela. It's normalized. I didn't flee Venezuela right away. I keep on working that this is not sustainable for us. Eventually they show it up at my home again and that was my red flag. I had to flee. And with uh, backpack I crossed countries and ended up in Spain because my dad was a Spaniard. Uh, so I said well, maybe I have a short path to a safe space. And that uh, safe path was Spain.

Host: Wow. And so to what extent this personal experience has gone through really kind of uh, led you to what you're doing now to create this coalition and to serve the very people that are impacted by the situation.

Ana Maria Diaz: Well, coalition for Venezuela is not just me. I am the elected president, but definitely has shaped the way I talk and advocate and work around protection. Because I was very vulnerable in Spain and we might think it's an easy country in which we can integrate. We speak the same language, we have short cultural differences, if I can call it that way. But no, it was really, really hard to integrate. So I started to reflect on my colleagues and so many anonymous Venezuelans, but also Nicaraguans, also Cubans, with this Latin American sentiment of being fully ignored worldwide. No one is talking about Cuba anymore. No one visualize the multidimensional tragedies that are happening in Central America. And definitely we don't talk enough about Venezuela. So definitely these vulnerabilities while I was unprotected shape the way I advocate for, for those that I work for.

Host: And what a better way because you have lived it. So you're really in a position to feel and to better advocate and move it further. I wanted to ask you. This year has been an extraordinary year for the humanitarian operations around the world. On the one hand, we saw increased crisis and conflicts in many part of the world, increased needs, but at the same time a significant reduction in terms of funding. We have never seen this, at least throughout my whole career, to that level of cutting. And that led to the humanitarian, what we call reset kind of reprioritizing and seeing what we do with limited resources. To what extent this reset takes protection as a priority in your view and experience?

Ana Maria Diaz: If I can be honest with you, I don't call it the humanitarian reset. I call it a failure. The humanitarian failure. The. I'm not into politics and I won't go there. But I think that what happened show us how fragile protection structures, ah, can be, how easy it is for a people that it's forcibly displaced to be vulnerable again when they thought they were protected. So I, um, think we should have more conversation with every actor involved on how can we sustain more durable solutions with those to be protected in the middle of the conversations. And also how this is a shared responsibility among us, not only one of two major donors, but also how can we do better now that this extraordinary situation happens, has given us a golden opportunity to do better from now on.

Host: Yeah. So what would you have done differently than within the reset? You use the word, uh, failure. How would you advise the system or the organizations go about at this point, uh, with this reduced funding situation to make it a success?

Ana Maria Diaz: I would say with more equitable solutions. This is an ongoing conversation. I am Also part of uh, a working group, we draft the first independent declaration on the right to participate in the decisions that affect us as uh, migrants or refugees, forcibly displaced and stateless persons. So this is a very innovative way because it's not just another declaration, it's a uh, pathway on how can a state easily include new ways of this. And it's not just participation, it's the right to participation. It has to be a right. And being refugee centered in the solutions comes in many ways. It's on the decision making process that refugee voices are heard. It's the enabling spaces to co create also, but also find more sustainable ways of acting. Right now I am um, leading a massive organization. We have so many incredible NGOs and refugee led organization throughout 23 countries. But the reality for each one of them is different. Even if we have one single common um, Golga. But having those voices in the room asking them how can we be more cost efficient, how can we reshape this idea? How does it feel for you? Do you think it will work? Do you think it not? So having this space for conversation, but also for taking action together, I think it can be a game changer.

Host: So participation of refugees, displaced people, people who are impacted, not just for the participation but also decision on the decision making table is crucial to bring uh, the results. So Anne Marie, you've been an advocate, you've really been speaking up uh, on behalf of people to do so. And even your own journey, it takes courage to be where you are. So what's your reflection on courage? What advice would you give other advocates or humanitarian leaders who are in countries with protection issues for people, how can they overcome? Sometimes there's all these hesitations because we don't want to upset all one or the other, we don't want the boat to sink. But at the same time we want to be able to influence the best possible results for the people that we care for.

Ana Maria Diaz: I haven't met yet a single person with lived experience that are uh, not courageous. So my piece of advice will be find that courage, that it's already within your soul. What has worked for me in those difficult times, that I don't know how to navigate a complicated situation or have a, uh, complicated conversation. I always think in the worst moment of my life and I'm here, I survived it, I went through that and I became a better, stronger person. That doesn't mean that I have the lack of courage sometime it's human to feel that way. But I will say we all have courage because we, we Are here. We ended up here. So that's the decision, and it's a daily based decision to be courageous.

Host: Yeah. Is courage something one can learn? Is something that one can grow into?

Ana Maria Diaz: We can definitely grow into that. But I do think that, um, we all are courageous. Sometimes we are courageous in a specific way. I am a very friendly person. So I understand if a shy person, a person that it's in the his nature to be shy, find it hard to get that courage to speak in public, for example. But think about, uh, the courageous actions that that person may have done before. So courageous takes many forms.

Host: Yeah. You know, when you talk, I have a sense of energy, a positive energy, and really a dynamism. Uh, surely in your path you would have also had setbacks, you would have had moments of resistance, moments where you felt so desperate and disappointed. So my question is, what keeps you going in these moments?

Ana Maria Diaz: My country is not free. So that's my biggest goal. If I'm not free, if all Venezuelans are unable to come back home, all we want is to get back home. And I am the daughter of, uh, a man that had to leave his country, finding a safe haven. That safe haven was Venezuela. And I am doing like the reverse path that my dad, uh, did once. But at the same time I'm thinking, what will happen once we have our, uh, country back? Will I stop there? No. The straight answer is no. I will advocate for others. I will continue to be advocate and advocate. So I think it's in our nature, and that keeps me ongoing every day. That passion that I have for human

Host: rights, that energy for the people, is really very obvious. Now I want to ask you, you lived that experience of getting displaced. You talked about being arrested, tortured, kidnapped, and then fleeing and then being into safety. And then you advocate also for participation, really participation in leadership bodies, in decision making with international organizations, with donors. You just came out from a meeting with donors right now to come and talk to me. To what extent that lived experience really influences a little bit your role on being this strong voice in terms of what you do.

Ana Maria Diaz: I think it influenced me in many ways because I advocate for participation to be a seat in the table, but also for more humane conversations. It's very easy to lose the humane dimension of grant making, decision making, to talk about numbers and talk about numbers and. Yeah, goals and. Yeah, absolutely, compliance. But picture this. You get, uh, your first grant and you are so happy because finally you get the funds that you needed as an RLO to do the work that you're passionate about. And to serve those communities. And you're stuck in this endless list of, uh, compliance, due diligence forms to fill without having a face to look at. That certainly can be very frightening. We start to hesitate and also brings a disruptive approach in the confidence that we might have to do this work. Can I deliver this? Can I do it right? I am, um, in the right place for the expectations that I'm creating or has been put on me. That kind of things happen for us. And I think it's very easy to lose that human approach. We are all humans, even decision makers, grant makers, UN staffers. And I have been incredibly blessed while I've been president to make friends in all UN agencies in philanthropic funds. And it's about people, it's about the human dimension that bring us all together. So I think that will be my remark. Remember, we are all humans.

Host: We're all humans. In talking about this human element and this participation, you talk about, beginning with the refugees and displaced people, people who we work for in the humanitarian. On the decision, uh, making table. Can you give me an example? What difference does it make? I mean, m. Bottom line, who are we to decide on behalf of the people? And then how do we bring this relation of dignity, of respect on the decision making table without having the very people that this is impact? So are you able. Can you give me an example? Like what, what difference does it make just to bring it to life?

Ana Maria Diaz: I have a very good example in my mind, actually. There is this regional, uh, process mechanism. It's called the Keto process. It's an intergovernmental space created by states in Latin America to provide solutions to the Venezuelan crisis. And I've been advocating in that space for the past three, four years to have a civil society mechanism. And it's funny because I was chasing around the ambassadors, uh, out of the plenaries because I wasn't allowed to be in the room. And we ended up in a weird dynamic in which ambassadors were in the plenary that I wasn't allowed to go to because I was not an authorized actor to be in the room. But I waited outside and then ambassadors approached me and say, few ambassadors, different contexts. It's like we are thinking in this mechanism for regularized Venezuelans. Will that work in this border context? Well, I can give you my piece of, uh, information, uh, on this. I can check with my colleagues in the field, but X, Y, Z can be options. Okay. And then run back to the plenary that opens the door for strengthening these conversations. Why are you finding solutions for The Venezuelan crisis without having a single Venezuelan in the.

Host: To be able to advise.

Ana Maria Diaz: To be able to advise. And uh, I'm happy to share that. Three, four years later, now we have a civil society network within the Keto process. It's baby steps, but uh, it's a seat on the table and it's dynamic, it's enriching, it's participatory. So that's a very good example.

Host: It's a lot more than baby step, I would say, because sitting on the table and being involved in decision making, this is really what we should have in every forum in terms of bringing the refugees, bringing the displaced people, bringing the people that we try to think what to do and who are we to decide after all that we know better than you what you need and what you'll do to be able to take it forward. So that's really great. I want to ask you. One of the concerns often in the humanitarian community we have is when we deal with civil society, with national actors, national organizations, national NGOs, civil society organizations, is not to transfer the risk. In particular when we talk about protection because you know, one has to speak up on issues that often are sensitive, they, they could put in danger that person or organization, depending on where she or he is. And, and you know, there could be, uh. So how do we go about making sure that um, certainly there's empowerment, giving the voice, but also without endangering or without transferring the risk, uh, on what should be said or not so far,

Ana Maria Diaz: how the system is built. It puts a lot of pressure on us. And when I say us, I'm talking about the organization that those many grassroots organizations that work right in the field and those that we are advocating on a second level. But I do think we need to find ways to have interventions that are co design because one of the main failures, and I'm talking right into protection, one of the main failures is uh, share responsibility, also sharing the risks. Many huge donors, INGOs and other actors often come with an intervention that is project based but without a clear path to ending safely. Those interventions, as soon as the project is over, they just withdraw from the territory. But, but we remain there, assuming the risks, assuming to comply with the population, people keep knocking on our door. And one good example is Colombia. Colombia is the biggest host country for Venezuelans, but this happens worldwide. I mean it's a very good example that can be pointed in several other countries with the humanitarian reset, with the funding cuts, all of the sudden everyone left the territories. But that doesn't mean that the crisis stopped. People continue crossing borders and risking their lives. There is major human trafficking routes throughout the Caribbean and South America that are still existing. And we didn't leave those territories. We live there, we work there, we provide solutions without funding, without knowing what to do next. So it's a huge protection risk for the populations we serve, for us as individuals, and for everyone that is not there to step back and say, I'm with you.

Host: Yeah. Um, so I want to ask you. We live in a time where multilateralism seems to be in decline. International cooperation, it's there, but it's not as it used to be before. And certainly there is a more shift towards military than humanitarian, uh, on the multilateral side. At the same time, you're an advocate, you and your organization and all humanitarians. We really try to push on humanitarian rights, people's rights, uh, safety for women, for children, uh, for civilians in conflict situation or on or in other situations. So how do you square the circle? How can you continue this advocacy at a time where it appears that there is a decline on international multilateralism? And in the past, we relied a lot on friendly countries, like minded countries, to help us kind of advance on the agenda for people who are under persecution, war, or displacement. So how do you go about it?

Ana Maria Diaz: I think we are all in the same seek for answers. I have had many conversations throughout this week, so we are in the same point of trying to figure it out. It's been incredibly challenging. I don't have the answers, nor many of the donors, nor many of the states or governments in the region or in different contexts. But I do think that m, if we keep looking for those honest, open conversations based on respect, I think we will have, as I was saying early, a golden opportunity to do better. I don't have the answers right now, but I keep looking for the answers. We should all be looking for the answer. And, uh, looking back, what led us to this point? What happened that we ended up with this humanitarian crisis worldwide with more wars than ever and, um, with more protection risk. We're all together in the same boat, so we should be keeping having these conversations, but looking back and try to do better, more innovative wave. I think we should have more space for innovation, allow innovation. I'm not saying we shouldn't be complying in the way, uh, more restrictive donors requires. Not at all. I will say this is the time for innovation.

Host: And, um, if I can ask you, what would innovation look like?

Ana Maria Diaz: Many of the conversations are around funds. Oh, there is fund restrictions, there is funding cuts. How can we shift this? Let's make it more cost efficient. What about localization? Localization doesn't have to imply to shut the half of the people out. No, we can all have a space for it. If we rethink together how to operate with localization we can grant, we can be making some grants, some grants for those grassroots organization based there and for intermediaries, they can have one piece of um, uh, innovation. You can still have the role of intermediaries. Talking about capacity building because it sounds like it was nothing before you and now let's, let's talk about supporting uh, or building around pre existing capacities or knowledge or any other forms. But once you have strengthening that organization, open on the door. And also for intermediaries it's easy to forget that because switching to fundraising mode, it's easy to forget that there is also another ways to support those located in the field. What about if you cannot fund them, open the door for those who can fund them. It's not always about money, it's about uh, making it more inclusive.

Host: And certainly localization is an area where some progress has been done but really it's far behind in terms of where it should have been done and with real empowerment funding. So it's a very, very valid point uh, that you're bringing. My last question I want to ask you is after all you have been through, uh, both back home and then with the network and everything you've put in place, you must have faced situations where you have to decide what's acceptable and what's not. How far do we push or do we push not. So I want to ask you what is an uh, example of something that we should not be accepting in protection? Like when do you consider something normal or not normal? And the reason I'm asking is because in many of the situations the level of threshold of what we accept as normal goes up and up and up and we reach a point where it's unbearable anymore. So how do you define in your work what's normal or what is the threshold in terms of pushing for protection outcomes?

Ana Maria Diaz: I think that's a ah, question very context related and it can be a different answer depending on who you ask. But I will say that it's not optional to include those with lived experience. They will tell you what a risk looks like for them. And this is me, the advocate and the previous humanitarian ah, worker because I had this guidance on how protection looks like. What were the standards? But being in the field they told me, oh, there is another protection risk in this and in here and in here. So having those voices feedback in me while I was a protection officer definitely changed the way I worked in that time. But now on the advocate side it's also. Do not speak on my behalf. Let me be there and tell you how protection looks like and we can think around it, how to do better, but I think that the non negotiable should be the right to participate.

Host: So that really equates giving the space, giving the voice. It helps, uh, the decision making and influence in the best possible way in terms of the outcome. Thank you so much for joining me on this podcast. What a delight to talk to you and hear your insight, your thoughtfulness, your compassion and this energy that you bring really into being an advocate for, uh, the people that you serve. And I think bottom line is maintaining the dignity and the respect for the population you're serving. So pleasure to have you and really thank you for being with us. And I want to say to our viewers and our listeners, really, thank you, thank you for being with us and please join us in the next episode of uh, Protection Leadership Podcast. Thank you and goodbye.